Old Miler
Total Posts: 1593
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11-13-20 05:18 PM - Post#904570
Hi all. I wonder if people have feelings for "strength standards" for calf and Achilles in various sports?
I was reading up on all the latest best practice on Achilles rehab. Many runners are big advocates of this..
https://www.pogophysio.com.au/blog/the-3-key-stages- for-achilles-tendinopathy -exercises/
In brief,
Step 1: static holds up on one toe, 5 x 45 sec.
Step 2: Isotonic strength training. Above two minutes of time under tension, 3x per week.
Step 3: a LOT of little hops and double foot jumps.
I was stunned reading it to see the strength levels he recommends, even for recreational runners. e.g 3 sets of 8 slow calf raises - 3 seconds up 3 down - with one foot lifting your whole body PLUS another 0.4x body weight. I am not sure I ever hit that as a pretty good young runner. Seems like a very sensible thing to add to a runner's strength routine.
I presume people in court or field sports need spring in their step. Do any of them focus explicitly on calves, or just trust the body to "develop what it needs" through their overall sport training?
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Neander
Total Posts: 7700
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3 sets of 8 slow calf raises - 3 SECONDS UP AND 3 DOWN - with one foot lifting your whole body PLUS another 0.4x body weight.
I don't know if that's on a block or on the floor, but either way it's a very high strength standard! And it's awful cool to see strength standards for something more than the usual lifts and exercises.
Thanks!
If you're not sweating you need to find another gear.
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Edited by Neander on 11-13-20 06:40 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Jordan D
Total Posts: 481
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I love this. Reading Dan's original article about standards was probably the biggest training epiphany of my life, and ever since, I've noticed how often people succeed when they're focused on the goal (meeting standards) instead of the thousand different programs that are all capable of getting them there.
In fact, these standards look quite similar to those from Athletic Truth Group, or kneesovertoesguy, which I've used in the last 4 months to eliminate old knee, ankle, and back issues. All by saying, "Okay, you need to achieve this calf raise standard, then this step-down standard, then this hip flexor standard."
Now, those standards probably won't help anyone win a race. If you can't do it already, then you probably don't have the genetics to be a winner. But if you're just a regular joe, it's nice knowing that if you can do X, your Y won't get tendinitis anymore.
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Old Miler
Total Posts: 1593
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3 sets of 8 slow calf raises - 3 SECONDS UP AND 3 DOWN - with one foot lifting your whole body PLUS another 0.4x body weight.
I don't know if that's on a block or on the floor,
Toes/ball on a ledge (or plate?), midfoot/heel in space and free to drop a few inches.
Simplest thing is to stand on the lowest stair of your home staircase, holding the post for stability. In the physio vid, he uses a smith machine and a block under the ball of his foot.
I did it today bodyweight only, loads of lactate during, but no aftereffects as it's probably only of my best-conditioned muscles. I'm going to build up holding a plate in one hand, then a KB if I get that far. I could potentially get up to 1/3 BW with my 24kg bell.
Edited by Old Miler on 11-14-20 02:49 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Old Miler
Total Posts: 1593
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...these standards look quite similar to those from Athletic Truth Group, or kneesovertoesguy, which I've used in the last 4 months to eliminate old knee, ankle, and back issues. All by saying, "Okay, you need to achieve this calf raise standard, then this step-down standard, then this hip flexor standard."
Jordan, I'm intrigued. His site does not give much away without signing up for $49.50/month - can you give any clues? In particular, how does he train hip flexors and what are those standards?
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Jordan D
Total Posts: 481
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It's a little hard to explain because the Knee Zero program is a long, slow slog at first. You used to be able to see all the movements on his Instagram, but it seems he's taken most of them down.
Either way, it starts with endless tibialis raises, straight leg calf raises, bent knee calf raises, and "Patrick steps" (a negative version of the Poliquin step up). Only then, when you have the requisite ankle strength/mobility, do you start doing this bad boy, the ATG split squat, which has been an absolute mind-blowing gamechanger for me.
I started that split squat using two aerobic steps for reduced mobility, and only this week started doing them on the floor. I've got a metal ankle that doesn't supinate/pronate, so I've never been able to do single-leg movements, but this one I can actually do because of the raised heel, and it's done magical things to my ankle, knee, and hip. The knee-strengthening effects are almost a corollary to the intense hip flexor stretch/strengthening on the off leg. I'm now very close to getting a full front split without ever having stretched, practiced, or attempted one. The standard for that movement is a full dumbbell squat on flat ground with heel lifted, 3-second pause at the bottom, and 50% bodyweight (25% per hand). So, I've still got a long way to go, but it's already paid huge dividends.
I've also greatly benefited from achieving their couch stretch standard: fully flexed hip, butt touching heel, when completely cold. Actually, achieving this was a lot easier than I expected. 1-minute daily stretches got me there in about two months.
Hope that makes sense? YMMV, but something just clicks in my head when I'm given a specific goal to achieve.
Edited by Jordan D on 11-14-20 05:46 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Ricky01
Total Posts: 644
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butt touching knee,
Hey Jordan
Did you mean 'Butt touching foot?'.
It's an interesting approach. I spent some time playing with peaked contraction (similar to this). I did this to actively stretch opposing muscles eg top of pushup holds - with shoulders rounded - to actively stretch upper back....floor bat wings to actively stretch shoulders and chest etc.
It worked so well I stopped doing it haha.
Richard
Edited by Ricky01 on 11-14-20 05:22 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Jordan D
Total Posts: 481
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butt touching knee,
Hey Jordan
Did you mean 'Butt touching foot?'.
It's an interesting approach. I spent some time playing with peaked contraction (similar to this). I did this to actively stretch opposing muscles eg top of pushup holds - with shoulders rounded - to actively stretch upper back....floor bat wings to actively stretch shoulders and chest etc.
It worked so well I stopped doing it haha.
Richard
Haha. Yes, apologies. I corrected it. Butt touching heel.
Funny how well it works, right? I've probably "learned" the same lesson a half dozen times, and again recently when band pull aparts miraculously fixed my tight biceps and chest.
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Ricky01
Total Posts: 644
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Haha phew, I was trying to figure out the mechanics of the movement.
Have you tried the holds at peak contraction? If so, which ones did you like?
Richard
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12bernd
Total Posts: 173
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Has anyone gone hard on both calf training and loaded carries? I am curious how Dan John's idea about a farmer walk with 1xBW and 2xBW compares. Lets say you do them for 40 yards. That's lots of half-rep calf raises with lot's of weight.
Since my entry into fitness training came via karate I have always done things like unweighted calf raises and jump rope training to train my feet and lower legs. But never heavy. And when it comes to loaded carriers my heaviest weights were my two 40kg KBs. But for me it is usually the grip that gives out.
At the gym I can easily use the whole 140kg stack for two legged standing calf raises. No idea for one legged standing calf raise. 40% of my body weight sounds doable at my regular speed. But I don't know how much of that weight gets transferred to my shoulders. Or how much harder it is at the slow pace recommended.
Edited by 12bernd on 11-15-20 10:14 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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RupertC
Total Posts: 1430
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11-15-20 10:29 AM - Post#904616
Work up to power cleaning your bodyweight?
| Check out my critical-thinking blog at sharpenyouraxe.substack.com |
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Jordan D
Total Posts: 481
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Have you tried the holds at peak contraction? If so, which ones did you like?
Richard
Nah, that's too much thinking for me. I've learned that if stretching sucks too hard, I don't keep up with it. My best success has come from using movements like those split squats as supplemental exercises to my main lifts. Has an intense peak contraction, but it's part of a more global "body is one piece" movement.
Has anyone gone hard on both calf training and loaded carries? I am curious how Dan John's idea about a farmer walk with 1xBW and 2xBW compares. Lets say you do them for 40 yards. That's lots of half-rep calf raises with lot's of weight.
On one hand, a step isn't a full contraction. I've done a lot of this, but it's never benefitted me. It makes me think of dancers/ballerinas who have monstrous calf strength. But then again, it also makes me think of all the coal miners I knew growing up who had giant calves from tromping up and down deep mines all day.
Also, apologies for hijacking this thread!
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Ricky01
Total Posts: 644
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Nah, that's too much thinking for me. I've learned that if stretching sucks too hard, I don't keep up with it. My best success has come from using movements like those split squats as supplemental exercises to my main lifts. Has an intense peak contraction, but it's part of a more global "body is one piece" movement.
Sounds great. I have often glazed over when someone spoke about stretching. I tend to be about movement and improving reflexive stability which I found improved 'flexibility' as my body seemed to relax into the movements. Though from a 'stretching' standpoint, I have found loaded stretches a mental and physical test.
I had decided to try the peak contraction work on the back of Dan John's PUPP programme (or something similar).
Richard
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Old Miler
Total Posts: 1593
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Also, apologies for hijacking this thread!
Not at all, you took in in a fascinating direction!
My schedule is full this month with run/bike, Elements and Easy Strength. But I was working on adding calves 3 days a week until you posted this.
Now I'm immediately adding this in before/between my deadlifts and pullups:
Odd days: Calves, Tibialis band work.
Even days: Hip flexors work, GHR progression
Admittedly today is Day 2 of this addition.
When I finish this cycle, ATG sounds like a good next step...
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Old Miler
Total Posts: 1593
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At the gym I can easily use the whole 140kg stack for two legged standing calf raises.
Hey, I remember that machine from my youth! And you are right, I played that game too, it was one of the few machines I could impress on. Funny, I haven't seen one of them in decades. I guess it's just easy to replicate one legged anywhere, or two-legged on a Smith.
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12bernd
Total Posts: 173
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Has anyone gone hard on both calf training and loaded carries? I am curious how Dan John's idea about a farmer walk with 1xBW and 2xBW compares. Lets say you do them for 40 yards. That's lots of half-rep calf raises with lot's of weight.
On one hand, a step isn't a full contraction. I've done a lot of this, but it's never benefitted me. It makes me think of dancers/ballerinas who have monstrous calf strength. But then again, it also makes me think of all the coal miners I knew growing up who had giant calves from tromping up and down deep mines all day.
Yeah, in itself a set of heavy farmer walks is probably not that great for your calf muscles. I was thinking more about the long term benefits of treating loaded carries like a main lift.
At the gym I can easily use the whole 140kg stack for two legged standing calf raises.
Hey, I remember that machine from my youth! And you are right, I played that game too, it was one of the few machines I could impress on. Funny, I haven't seen one of them in decades. I guess it's just easy to replicate one legged anywhere, or two-legged on a Smith.
Can't wait for my gym to reopen so I can crush the one legged calf raises with that machine :D But doing a slow 3sec up and down gives me a good burn with unweighted ones on my stairs after rep 20-25 or so. So it might take a while until I can move the whole weight stack ;)
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Old Miler
Total Posts: 1593
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I have been experimenting how to do soleus-only work without a gym. I played with plates stacked on my knee, like the bent knee calf machines, but it hurts and the chance of dropping them on a foot seems a bit high.
What does seem to work:
1. sit on a sturdy bench, working leg (e.g. left) bent 90' at knee, with heel on floor and toe on a small block, so your calf is a bit stretched.
2. Drape doubled resistance band over top of left knee/thigh
3. Stick right leg midfoot into the bottom of the band loop and push down hard to the floor. Band now is super-tight.
4. Start calf-raising away with the left, while pushing down on right thigh with both hands to make sure it stays on the floor.
Do this after the straight leg ones (which can be done to fatigue on a staircase), and you can get a really mean pump in the soleus...
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Jordan Derksen
Total Posts: 190
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Haha. Yes, apologies. I corrected it. Butt touching heel.
Funny how well it works, right? I've probably "learned" the same lesson a half dozen times, and again recently when band pull aparts miraculously fixed my tight biceps and chest.
Can you explain this to me? I just started some light snatching again; working ‘the drill’ into my program. I get intense sharp pain in the catch position at the base of the thumb on my right hand.
I was doing some reading, it seems like it comes from tight biceps.
Do you do 3 sets of 10-15 daily? Let me know, I really want to open up my biceps and chest.
As for the calves thing, this is an interesting discussion. I’ve never had nicely developed calves, but I also haven’t spent the time to work directly on them. This would be a good thing to throw in to work on especially as I focus on hockey. Cant go wrong with having strong ankles.
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Jordan Derksen
Total Posts: 190
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11-17-20 08:53 PM - Post#904697
Funny how much that ATG split squat looks identical to the bottom position of an old style split snatch.
Knees of steel I tell you.
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Dan Christensen
Total Posts: 101
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Also, apologies for hijacking this thread!
Running with the theft.
Jordan, I've also been contemplating the ATG program but the lack of information makes is hard to gauge.
What's the weekly time commitment to the program?
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Jordan D
Total Posts: 481
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Can you explain this to me? I just started some light snatching again; working ‘the drill’ into my program. I get intense sharp pain in the catch position at the base of the thumb on my right hand.
I was doing some reading, it seems like it comes from tight biceps.
Do you do 3 sets of 10-15 daily? Let me know, I really want to open up my biceps and chest.
I just do 100 reps daily with a gold Theraband. Jim Wendler has always said to do this and not to think about it, and man, he's right. A classic "works so well I quit doing it."
Jordan, I've also been contemplating the ATG program but the lack of information makes is hard to gauge.
What's the weekly time commitment to the program?
Roughly 20-30 minutes, 3 times a week. I did it as an add-on to my lifting days in the gym. Eventually this became too much, however. When I reached the ankle/calf standards, I just started using the ATG split squats and seated good mornings as squat/deadlift supplemental exercises, and this is working wonderfully. Squats and deads keep going up, but at the same time, I'm gaining odd mobility and lower-body integrity. Unlike a lot of movements, these seem to add more than they take away. Knee tendinitis and old ligament-injury spasms have disappeared.
The creator, Ben Patrick, is kind of goofy and a hard salesman, but he's genuine, and honestly I think he's one of only a handful of people that have added something novel to the fitness literature in the last few decades (along with, perhaps, Dan, Rippetoe, and Pavel).
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Dan Christensen
Total Posts: 101
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Jordan Derksen
Total Posts: 190
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11-19-20 11:17 AM - Post#904766
Jordan, you mentioned you hate stretching. With the ATG split squat and seated good morning, are those not held as stretches then? Do you do them for reps instead of total time (dynamic vs static)?
If so that’s really interesting, I may have to sign up for a bit to check it out. Dynamic stretching with movements is so much easier to stay committed to and seems way more effective than just holding a position for 2 mins and waiting.
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Jordan D
Total Posts: 481
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11-19-20 01:05 PM - Post#904770
5 sets of 5.
The split squats have a 3-second pause at the bottom, like a momentary yoga pose. The seated good mornings I only pause for a second or so, and mostly focus on pushing my legs out ("spreading the taint" as Ed Coan called it) while I'm acquiring the mobility to get my chest to the bench. This is the great "knot" in my body that I've spent years fighting.
Lots of Internet folks call this "end-range strength" training these days, I think. There's something intuitive about it. When it comes to hamstring flexibility, no one actually wants to hold a pike for 2 minutes. They want the ability to hinge down, slap the floor, and pop up, without injury. But they never actually do that. Instead of slowly building/strengthening through consistent easy knee touches, toe touches, knuckle touches, and full pikes, they hold a pose for 2 minutes and expect to hammer through the limitation.
Holding a pose for two minutes might make you good at holding a pose, but for me, it's been a very poor way of acquiring the ability to move (with speed, strength, and athleticism).
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Jordan Derksen
Total Posts: 190
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11-19-20 02:15 PM - Post#904776
This is amazing, thanks for your thoughts Jordan.
I tried some of those seated good mornings and ATG split squats last night amidst my 100 band pull aparts. The split squat surprised me, I had to go up on a 6 inch step and things were quivering. My belly was no where close to the bench of the good mornings. I’ve always wanted to get that split leg pike with the chest on the floor that Klokov famously demonstrates, I don’t think I can get past 90 degrees no matter how much I ‘hang out there’. The end range strength idea really works. I’ve seen videos of Chinese lifters doing their ‘stretches’; they split the legs while sitting on the floor, a partner puts a barbell on their back, and they do seated good mornings on the floor. Now that’s flexibility.
I actually remember reading a paper once on the correlation between injuries and a large disparity between active and passive flexibility.
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Ricky01
Total Posts: 644
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Jordan the Instagram link isn't working for split squat.
The moves seem similar to Jon Engum's 4 weeks to flexible steel.
Richard
Edited by Ricky01 on 11-19-20 02:53 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Jordan Derksen
Total Posts: 190
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Ricky01
Total Posts: 644
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Lots of Internet folks call this "end-range strength" training these days,
There is a lot of good stuff out there about training end range. The muscle in a lengthened position is at its weakest, so time spent there should in theory strengthen the entire muscle and ward off many injuries.....although I can't back that up, just what I have read.
Think hanging actively.
The split squat you posted.
Bottom of a pushup.
These are all stretched positions but 'active' or 'loaded' stretches.
Dante Trudel of DC bodybuilding fame has been writing about loaded stretches for years. Everyone thought he was just making it up initially....then they tried it....and stopped laughing.
Also, check out Jon Engums 4 weeks to flexible steel. Not used it but hear it used as a stand alone programme if needs be.
Richard
Edited by Ricky01 on 11-19-20 05:05 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Old Miler
Total Posts: 1593
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Jordan, these are great - thanks for the video links. I really agree with your view on mobility
Those two - ATG Split Squat and Seated Good Mornings - do seem to precisely the things I am worst at and most need to improve. I'll explore them for my next cycle as I am chasing 'too many rabbits' this month already.
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Jordan D
Total Posts: 481
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11-19-20 07:28 PM - Post#904802
This is amazing, thanks for your thoughts Jordan.
I tried some of those seated good mornings and ATG split squats last night amidst my 100 band pull aparts. The split squat surprised me, I had to go up on a 6 inch step and things were quivering. My belly was no where close to the bench of the good mornings.
My pleasure! And, I have to add, that was literally, exactly my experience too. Both movements were humbling. I still can hardly get past 45 degrees on the good mornings. And good spot on those videos! Those are better than the ones I watched when subscribed to the program. Those cats really update things constantly.
The moves seem similar to Jon Engum's 4 weeks to flexible steel.
I did Flexible Steel in 2016, I think. I don't remember much about it other than that I quit doing it as soon as the 4 weeks were over. Though that was probably a right program at the wrong time situation. You're right though, Engum's kettlebell pullovers have the same goal as ATG's traditional pullover standard: 25% bodyweight x 10 reps for optimal shoulder ROM. So, again, I think it's just having "standards" that resonates in my mixed up head.
However, your description of end-range strength makes me see some similarities with using isometrics to attack barbell weaknesses, similar to what Dan described in his Isochain review. Instead of pushing through the weakness, you isolate it and gradually strengthen it.
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Ricky01
Total Posts: 644
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11-20-20 06:49 AM - Post#904815
However, your description of end-range strength makes me see some similarities with using isometrics to attack barbell weaknesses, similar to what Dan described in his Isochain review. Instead of pushing through the weakness, you isolate it and gradually strengthen it.
I think FRC practitioners focus a lot on end range and the idea of active/passive ranges and minimising the difference to avoid injury and improving movement.
Also spending time increasing blood flow to an area (especially an injured) is a great focal point.
Richard
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Old Miler
Total Posts: 1593
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11-21-20 05:21 PM - Post#904904
Tried the seated good mornings tonight. For the last couple of years, I have often felt really tight across the entire lumbar spine - in a very "near the surface" way. Somehow these exactly hit it.
I tried first with a PVC pipe, and couldn't get down far. With a 30kg bar, suddenly I was getting much much lower with every rep, and feeling stretches in bits of hams, butt and back I didn't know I could reach. And my back feels amazing now. No doubt it will feel it tomorrow. This is going to be regular part of my warmups now. Thanks!
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Jordan D
Total Posts: 481
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11-21-20 06:55 PM - Post#904906
Haha. Oh man, good luck. I only used a 35lb bar my first time, and they lit my groin up so fierce I was waddling the next morning.
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Jordan Derksen
Total Posts: 190
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My off day mobility has been a stroll through the following exercises and stretches:
1) 3s up and 3s down calf raises on the stairs sets of 8
2) ATG split squat sets of 5 - did these on the floor for the first time yesterday.
3) seated good morning with the 20kg bar on the back
4) band pull aparts 100 total. I finally found a use for my black mobility wod compression band. Sets of 25 with a strong external rotation, thumbs pointed back at the end
5) Stoney stretch with rings
6) lying on back, butt to wall, legs up the wall. Push heels towards ceiling and pull toes towards you, drive knees back against the wall. This is an INSANE posterior chain stretch.
7) some bi and tri stretches
I do a range of 3-5 sets depending on the exercise. Takes me about 30 minutes. Things are definitely changing dramatically in the body as one piece integrity after 4 days of doing this. Rinks are locked down right now, but I’m excited to see the difference this will make on the ice when I get back there eventually.
Many thanks to this forum for helping me get away from arbitrarily stretching and foam rolling to no avail. I agree with old miler, The ATG squat and seated good morning are challenging small muscles in my hips I never knew were in there.
Edited by Jordan Derksen on 11-22-20 10:13 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Ricky01
Total Posts: 644
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My off day mobility has been a stroll through the following exercises and stretches:
1) 3s up and 3s down calf raises on the stairs sets of 8
2) ATG split squat sets of 5 - did these on the floor for the first time yesterday.
3) seated good morning with the 20kg bar on the back
4) band pull aparts 100 total. I finally found a use for my black mobility wod compression band. Sets of 25 with a strong external rotation, thumbs pointed back at the end
5) Stoney stretch with rings
6) lying on back, butt to wall, legs up the wall. Push heels towards ceiling and pull toes towards you, drive knees back against the wall. This is an INSANE posterior chain stretch.
7) some bi and tri stretches
I do a range of 3-5 sets depending on the exercise. Takes me about 30 minutes. Things are definitely changing dramatically in the body as one piece integrity after 4 days of doing this. Rinks are locked down right now, but I’m excited to see the difference this will make on the ice when I get back there eventually.
Many thanks to this forum for helping me get away from arbitrarily stretching and foam rolling to no avail. I agree with old miler, The ATG squat and seated good morning are challenging small muscles in my hips I never knew were in there.
Great looking list Jordan.
I know you throw the iron around, but it would be really interesting if you 'just' followed that routine for a couple of weeks. How many times per week would of course be up to you.
I say that as it would be interesting to find out how much of this routine and its benefits was just undoing the weight lifting etc.
I have a daily movement routine I use. It was a warm up and eventually became the workout (as Dan says). It can change slightly based upon mood etc. It was primarily OS and crawling based but as I explored movement more, it progressed/regressed etc.
Usually something around:
Prone head nods and rotations.
Windshield wipers or egg rolls.
Side plank clams
A shin box series I came up with.
Reverse table top movement.
One set of (a couple reps shy of failure of):
Band face pulls/pullaparts
Band pushups
I usually move slowly....sometimes 'really' slowly.
That is often it for me at the moment. Life is busy and as much as I might like to do more....do I really need to.
I would love to be able to do things like a full cossak squat starting from the floor....so I know I have to add on something daily to assist with that (legs out to the side rocking etc).
But really, how much do I need?!
Richard
Edited by Ricky01 on 11-22-20 11:43 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Old Miler
Total Posts: 1593
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11-22-20 01:33 PM - Post#904944
Haha. Oh man, good luck. I only used a 35lb bar my first time, and they lit my groin up so fierce I was waddling the next morning.
I feel strangely OK, indeed - dare I say it - good. Settled for a good stretch and a long walk in the park today though...it helped
Great lists of remedial exercises here. You might find it worth trying the "Trifecta" from Convict Conditioning - 3 holds/stretches with a good picture here...these also make me feel good when i remember to do them...
https://bell0bytes.eu/trifecta/
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Jordan D
Total Posts: 481
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11-22-20 01:59 PM - Post#904945
Hey, the Trifecta! I’ve done those off and on for years. Recently quit doing the twists again, because it appears I’m finally at a point where squat-induced muscle mass just won’t allow it. And I’m okay with that.
The bridge is a big one for me, and I’ll start training it again after I hit all my strength standards. But I was really dismayed recently when attempting L-sits (ATG recommends them as well). I used to do these for hours, and now can’t hold one for 3 seconds.
Things are definitely changing dramatically in the body as one piece integrity after 4 days of doing this. Rinks are locked down right now, but I’m excited to see the difference this will make on the ice when I get back there eventually.
Many thanks to this forum for helping me get away from arbitrarily stretching and foam rolling to no avail. I agree with old miler, The ATG squat and seated good morning are challenging small muscles in my hips I never knew were in there.
That’s fantastic. One-piece integrity. That just about sums it all up.
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Dan Christensen
Total Posts: 101
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01-13-21 01:53 AM - Post#906693
Following all the above, I decided to give Knees Over Toes guy a proper go.
Since I was curious about the time commitment, I'll answer my own question.
I'm about 2 weeks into their Zero Formula, which is their 12 week-ish bodyweight program.
The main work is 3 days a week of legs (Mon, Weds, Fri)
I'm finding it's 30-40 minutes, depending on whether you do the optional extras or not.
The 'off' days (Tues, Thurs, Sat) are all options: optional upper body work (about 15-20 minutes), optional cardio (15 minutes), and optional stretching (about 30-40 minutes). I'm choosing whatever mix of the optional stuff best matches energy on the day.
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