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Display Name Post: Sleep Stack (Zn, Mg, Melatonin)        (Topic#37635)
Jordan Derksen
*
Total Posts: 232
03-24-21 10:24 AM - Post#909062    



Dan was the guy who originally turned me onto ZMA and got me interested in fixing my sleep. It works... for a time. I'm B sensitive, so even at 1/3 of the dose, the B6 in ZMA builds up and eventually I don't sleep at all.

I never slept well in my teens. 20's were great. But my toddler has slowly dismantled all the good habits I used to create my sleep schedule in my 20's. When he was a baby I was still a good sleeper and could fall asleep quick and semi-regularly sleep through him getting up. But after 2.5 years of him still getting up at least once a night my sleep is just trashed. If he wakes up at 3am, I'll often lie awake till 5. Even if he sleeps through the night I'll wake up at 5 and stare at the ceiling till 7.

I want to start with the sleep stack recommended courtesy Jordan D (the other Jordan D) from the vitamin D/Covid thread:
50mg Zinc
400mg Magnesium
4000 IU Vitamin D (taken AM)
.25mg Melatonin

I already take vitamin D.

Not all brands are made the same. Enantiomers (L or D form) and bonding methods can make a big difference in absorption. Since I don't want to take ZMA I will need to get Zn and Mg separate. What brands are good for Zn, Mg, Vit. D, and Melatonin? Is Jamieson good enough? Webber? Sisu? What forms are needed for the minerals (think suffix's like -ate)? Where can you get melatonin in the CORRECT small dose of .25? So far I've mostly just found 3 or 5mg tabs. Since I don't want to stand there like an idiot shaving down those tabs what is the smallest dose we can get? Whats the best method for it? Sublingual, oral, slow release? When should you take it?

Any other tips, tricks people are welcome. No screens before 9, hot tub every night before bed, cold showers. Whatever it is, lets hear it. Include stuff that gives natural, non-drugged, restorative sleep. Sleep is the #1 recovery tool so it would be great to gather everyone's thoughts in one place.




Edited by Jordan Derksen on 03-24-21 10:39 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
 
BChase
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Total Posts: 785
03-24-21 11:55 AM - Post#909064    



I take magenesium oil before going to bed. 16 sprays, make sure to put some on soles of feet. Read for a 1/2 hour in bed. Turn your phone and computer off after 8 PM.

I've taken ZMA, didn't do much, more of a placebo for me.
 
davidcc
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Total Posts: 48
03-24-21 12:25 PM - Post#909067    



One of our community members (sorry, I forget who it is) sells a sleep supplement with exactly those ingredients. After 20 years of dealing with on-and-off insomnia of varying degrees of seriousness, I have had more success with this formula than any other I have tried. (Valerian root, ZMA, various doses of melatonin, herbal teas, and on and on.) The dosage to get the full formula is three capsules, but I find that two is enough to push me over the edge into sleep. (Male, 6 feet tall, 210 pounds.) I have tried just taking the ingredients separately (significantly less expensive), but the effect just isn't the same. As effective as this formula is, however, my experience has been that it becomes less effective after four or five nights, so I take a couple of nights off, then start over again. Not perfect, but WAY better than it was before.

Re: Micro dose of melatonin. The smallest dose I have found was 1.0 mg. I tried using a pill splitter, but the 1.0 mg pill was awfully small and I'd end up just crushing it more often than not. So, I tried just taking the whole 1.0 mg and woke up groggy and with a headache. I have found the 0.25 mg dose to be much more "user friendly."

This is just my n=1 experience. YMMV
 
ledfistaco
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Total Posts: 779
03-24-21 01:11 PM - Post#909069    



I would avoid regular use of melatonin supplementation.

   Attachment

Less Hercules, more Achilles.



 
Jordan Derksen
*
Total Posts: 232
Sleep Stack (Zn, Mg, Melatonin)
03-24-21 01:44 PM - Post#909071    



  • ledfistaco Said:
I would avoid regular use of melatonin supplementation.



From my understanding this is why you microdose with .25mg instead of taking 3 or 5mg caps. It would be a stretch to assume a small dose within the parameters of natural production would shrink your nuts, since your body actually makes it. The key would be appropriate dosing.

That being said, I've never taken it. But if I did, it would be very small amounts.

.25mg (250 micrograms) for a 90kg male is a concentration of 2.7 mcg/kg. Not even close to the 20 they had in the study.




Edited by Jordan Derksen on 03-24-21 01:47 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
 
Sean S
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Total Posts: 26
03-24-21 02:11 PM - Post#909072    



I've had decent luck with the stuff below recently. I can't say 100% whether it's the supplements or lower stress levels recently.

melatonin: I chop 3 mg dose into four pieces. It's more than 0.25 mg but still less than 1 mg. It's doesn't seem to leave me groggy or interrupt sleep.

Essential Elements Mg/Zn: This has 1000IU vit D, 225 mg magnesium, 6.5 mg zinc. The dose is smaller than the ZMA I was taking previously but it seems to help as much or more than the ZMA. I seem to have vivid dreams every night since taking this stuff which I didn't have with ZMA. I don't know if this means my sleep is better or worse but I have been feeling rested lately.
 
ledfistaco
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Total Posts: 779
03-24-21 02:12 PM - Post#909073    



I'm not saying it's gonna shrink anything, I just feel like chronic intake of something that body should be making itself will probably mess up something downstream somehow.
Less Hercules, more Achilles.



 
Mr. Kent
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Total Posts: 516
03-24-21 02:22 PM - Post#909074    



  • davidcc Said:
One of our community members (sorry, I forget who it is) sells a sleep supplement with exactly those ingredients.



I can't remember the guy's name either, but his supplement is called Hibernate and I've used it periodically. I found it to work quite well. I've often thought about replicating the formula, and to achieve 0.25mg of melatonin I had thought about dissolving the smallest capsule I could find into water, and assuming the solution to be homogenous, I would then take the proportionate amount of the solution. Then I realized that my chemistry background is extremely limited and the chances of making a solution to net close to my desired dose would be too small to be worth the attempt.

Anyhow, I did find his supplement to work really well.
my training log: What Mr. Kent is Doing Now


 
Jordan D
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Total Posts: 521
03-24-21 03:08 PM - Post#909075    



  • Mr. Kent Said:
  • davidcc Said:
One of our community members (sorry, I forget who it is) sells a sleep supplement with exactly those ingredients. After 20 years of dealing with on-and-off insomnia of varying degrees of seriousness, I have had more success with this formula than any other I have tried.



I can't remember the guy's name either, but his supplement is called Hibernate and I've used it periodically. I found it to work quite well.



That would be me, and thank you guys for the mention. I'm thrilled it works well for you! FWIW, we've dropped pricing, and still have a DANJOHNFORUM discount for anyone who might be interested. PM me if so.

For those who want to DIY it, I spent years buying 1mg melatonin and chopping it up with a plastic CVS pill cutter. I'd mix it with various forms of chelated magnesium, zinc, and vitamin D, and it always helped. But manufacturing it myself, to avoid the filler and whatever other crap often ends up in OTC supplements, made an unexpectedly big difference in the results. You'd be surprised how much extra stuff ends up in those Walmart horse pills.

I've found the key for consistently good results is this:
1. Never use magnesium oxide - always an -ate version at 200mg or greater.
2. Keep the melatonin doses at 0.3mg or lower

You won't find yourself zonking out like you're on Ambien, but it gives most people steady sleep, and soon you'll find that you don't need, want, or even think about coffee after your first habitual morning cup. That's the real test of success.
 
Brian Hassler
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Total Posts: 489
03-24-21 03:18 PM - Post#909076    



I just started reading Relax and Win, by Bud Winters. Dan John has been recommending the book for years. A big part of it has to do with the sleep research they did during WWII, and the book includes a protocol for falling asleep at will, under most any conditions. It's too soon for me to say if it's working for me, or not.
 
Jordan D
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Total Posts: 521
Re: Sleep Stack (Zn, Mg, Melatonin)
03-24-21 03:24 PM - Post#909077    



  • Jordan Derksen Said:
  • ledfistaco Said:
I would avoid regular use of melatonin supplementation.



From my understanding this is why you microdose with .25mg instead of taking 3 or 5mg caps.



Spot on, Jordan.

I could defend this point for hours, but I'll let it stand that no one seems to develop side effects from microdosing, and the benefits are far greater than the dangers of going through middle age with poor sleep, which is associated with every horrid chronic health/death condition you can imagine.
 
Pepper
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Total Posts: 258
03-24-21 03:56 PM - Post#909079    



Why not -oxide, Jordan? I ask because I use both, depending on which I walk across when I shop, and -oxide seems to give me -- anecdotally and oddly -- the better dreams.
 
davidcc
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Total Posts: 48
03-24-21 05:24 PM - Post#909081    



  • Jordan D Said:

That would be me, and thank you guys for the mention. I'm thrilled it works well for you! FWIW, we've dropped pricing, and still have a DANJOHNFORUM discount for anyone who might be interested. PM me if so.




Good to hear about the price drop. I'm due to order a couple more bottles. I also appreciate the discount you offered during the early days of Covid. Speaks highly of you and your company culture.


 
Dan John
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Total Posts: 11956
03-24-21 06:22 PM - Post#909082    



Where is the site, Jordan? Sorry if I missed it.

I started Melatonin again after a long "off." I am doing:

Metamucil
Melatonin
Metformin

before bed. It's a change up for me.
Daniel John
Just handing down what I was handed down...


Make a Difference.
Live. Love. Laugh.
Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude)
Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk.
Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth.
Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights.
Reread great books. Say thank you


 
Jordan Derksen
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Total Posts: 232
03-24-21 07:14 PM - Post#909083    



And, do you ship to Canada?

I’m counting the days till the border opens let me tell you. Ever since it closed prices on everything in Canada have skyrocketed because they know we can’t go to the states right now and buy it for cheaper.


 
Jordan D
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Total Posts: 521
03-24-21 07:45 PM - Post#909084    



  • Pepper Said:
Why not -oxide, Jordan? I ask because I use both, depending on which I walk across when I shop, and -oxide seems to give me -- anecdotally and oddly -- the better dreams.



Magnesium oxide is far less absorptive in the gut, so it takes a much larger dose to get the same benefits, and those doses tend to give folks some serious...shall we say...toilet issues. If it works for you, of course, keep it up! But I always recommend magnesium citrate which is cheap and widely available.

  • davidcc Said:
Good to hear about the price drop. I'm due to order a couple more bottles. I also appreciate the discount you offered during the early days of Covid. Speaks highly of you and your company culture.



You humble me, sir. I'm just thrilled it works for you.

  • Dan John Said:
Where is the site, Jordan? Sorry if I missed it.

I started Melatonin again after a long "off." I am doing:

Metamucil
Melatonin
Metformin

before bed. It's a change up for me.



Sorry, I always feel hesitant about being pushy in other folks' houses!

https://hibernationlab.com/ (Use the code DANJOHNFORUM for 20% off)

I have to say, thanks to your advice, Metamucil is a non-negotiable part of my daily routine now and I recommend it to everyone. It does some weird magic! But people always give me the weirdest looks...
 
Jordan D
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Total Posts: 521
03-24-21 08:01 PM - Post#909085    



  • Jordan Derksen Said:
And, do you ship to Canada?

I’m counting the days till the border opens let me tell you. Ever since it closed prices on everything in Canada have skyrocketed because they know we can’t go to the states right now and buy it for cheaper.



Man, Jordan. That's a tricky question. Canada restricts melatonin shipments to 60-capsule bottles, and we've never been confident our 90 capsules of super-tiny micro doses will get through. We've had mixed results shipping internationally during Covid, but things seem to have eased up lately. So...maybe. Let me look into this and get back to you.
 
iPood
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Total Posts: 2188
Sleep Stack (Zn, Mg, Melatonin)
03-25-21 01:34 AM - Post#909088    



  • Jordan D Said:
  • Jordan Derksen Said:
And, do you ship to Canada?

I’m counting the days till the border opens let me tell you. Ever since it closed prices on everything in Canada have skyrocketed because they know we can’t go to the states right now and buy it for cheaper.



Man, Jordan. That's a tricky question. Canada restricts melatonin shipments to 60-capsule bottles, and we've never been confident our 90 capsules of super-tiny micro doses will get through. We've had mixed results shipping internationally during Covid, but things seem to have eased up lately. So...maybe. Let me look into this and get back to you.



Please, let me know if you ever start selling overseas.
"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness
and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums.
It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable.
Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow.
Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't."

Dan Martin




Edited by iPood on 03-25-21 01:35 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
 
thomasjbarrett
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Total Posts: 62
03-25-21 06:34 AM - Post#909094    



A couple of sleep observations to add to the conversation:

1. I've found noise machines invaluable for not getting woken up by random noises in the night. I used to have a dedicated machine on the bedside table, but for several years I've had a phone app for it. I use myNoise on Android, and Noisli is also good, not sure what's available on iPhone. The ability to try a wide array of sounds is nice, I found by experimenting that brown noise works best for me (like white noise, but lower frequencies). When I traveled often for work, hotel sleep was greatly improved by the same noise I used at home, and the phone is more convenient than packing a dedicated machine.

2. If you don't like the Metamucil drink, or get tired of it like me, they also make it in a pill form. 3-4 pills at night achieves the same effect.

3. I took the opportunity of a bathroom remodel to put in a heated bidet seat. Between that, the bedtime Metamucil, and a morning coffee, eliminations are quick, clean, and thorough. The only price to pay is good-natured teasing from friends and family.

4. Minimize screen fatigue with either blue-blocker glasses or apps that shift the color spectrum of the display. My daughter swears by the glasses for reducing eye strain, I didn't see a difference in myself. I use .flux on PC to shift the display from 5500K to 2700K between 8 pm and 7 am. Recent versions of Android have a built-in Night Light feature that does the same thing, and I'm sure iPhone does something similar. In addition, I use dark themes on every app & website that provide it to reduce the amount of white light on the screen.

5. Learning how to meditate was a game-changer for getting back to sleep when I woke up an hour or two too early. In the past if I woke up it was difficult to get back to sleep, and I'd usually just get up and deal with being tired that day. Knowing how to get into that meditative state of mind made it waaaay easier to drop back into sleep by just concentrating on my breathing and counting backwards from 1000.
This, too, shall pass


 
Dan John
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Total Posts: 11956
03-25-21 09:44 AM - Post#909098    



I think this should be another stickie. Great advice.

I like my little white noise machine; I got it years ago and gave one to my daughter when Danny was struggling for a bit. Maybe its our DNA but it works so well.

Agreed: meditation, metamucil...odd stuff to talk about with sleep, but it seems to help.
Daniel John
Just handing down what I was handed down...


Make a Difference.
Live. Love. Laugh.
Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude)
Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk.
Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth.
Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights.
Reread great books. Say thank you


 
Dan John
*
Total Posts: 11956
03-25-21 09:48 AM - Post#909100    



I ordered the Hibernate. That's a nice platform...I will try it out and support you as I can here.
Daniel John
Just handing down what I was handed down...


Make a Difference.
Live. Love. Laugh.
Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude)
Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk.
Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth.
Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights.
Reread great books. Say thank you


 
Laree
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Real Email Address: ld@davedraper.com
03-25-21 10:04 AM - Post#909101    



Thanks for being so careful, Jordan; we appreciate it. Thanks also for being such a valuable asset to the IronOnline community. This would only be considered spam if a person just dropped in to leave a link. That’s definitely not you.

I’ll be ordering today too. I’ve been taking 1mg of melatonin, but would love to have a smaller dose. Thanks for doing this.


>>
Sorry, I always feel hesitant about being pushy in other folks' houses!

https://hibernationlab.com/

(Use the code DANJOHNFORUM for 20% off)


 
davidcc
*
Total Posts: 48
Sleep Stack (Zn, Mg, Melatonin)
03-25-21 10:37 AM - Post#909102    



I'm so glad to see that this thread has gained some traction. Since I've had sleep issues for years I'm always open to hearing of others experiences and learning about what has worked for them.

I would encourage those with sleep issues to rummage around the hibernationlab website. There are several good resources there. I found the blog to be very helpful, especially the entry about sleep hygiene.

Sweet dreams fellow insomniacs.

ETA: The blog entry on exercise and sleep is also good. Just last week I read an article discussing a study about how exercise affects sleep. This study concluded that exercise does not seem to affect sleep drive, but it does improve sleep efficiency and quality. Works for me.

Edited by davidcc on 03-25-21 10:43 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
 
Jordan D
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Total Posts: 521
03-25-21 01:43 PM - Post#909105    



Thank you so much, Dan and Laree. This forum is truly a fantastic place, and I just hope I can contribute one tenth of what I've benefitted from you and others on here.

I'll also add that Thomas's suggestions are right on the money. I myself use all 5 of them, though my white noise machine is a decidedly buzzy $15 fan! Blue blocker glasses are essential too, though sometimes they make people think it's okay to keep the overhead lights on and tap away at their phones. I honestly believe that if we could just convince people to turn off the lights at sundown, the public health benefits would be enormous and paradigm-shifting.
 
Jim James
*
Total Posts: 83
Re: Sleep Stack (Zn, Mg, Melatonin)
03-26-21 01:00 AM - Post#909128    



  • Jordan Derksen Said:
Where can you get melatonin in the CORRECT small dose of .25? So far I've mostly just found 3 or 5mg tabs. Since I don't want to stand there like an idiot shaving down those tabs what is the smallest dose we can get? Whats the best method for it? Sublingual, oral, slow release? When should you take it?





https://www.iherb.com/pr/Nordic-Naturals-Me latonin-Gummies-Raspberry -1-5-mg-60-Gummies/82360? gclid=E...

1.5mg gummies. Should be easier to cut to size than tablets.
 
Dan John
*
Total Posts: 11956
03-31-21 08:31 AM - Post#909291    



Well, Hibernate, Day One: woke up an hour before the alarm. Good dreams, slept all the way through (I'm guessing nine hours?), and no "hangover."

So, thumbs up so far. Hmmm. I can't believe that it worked better than my other stuff.
Daniel John
Just handing down what I was handed down...


Make a Difference.
Live. Love. Laugh.
Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude)
Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk.
Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth.
Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights.
Reread great books. Say thank you


 
Old Miler
*
Total Posts: 1629
03-31-21 05:56 PM - Post#909316    



Yesterday I did my first "hard" workout in months - the law changed to allow group training, the weather changed to make it pleasant, and a few of us blew away all the cobwebs. This morning I woke up after 9 hours nonstop sleep and nearly missed a conference call.

You can't do it every day, but there's something really mentally refreshing about physical exhaustion!
 
Jordan D
*
Total Posts: 521
04-01-21 12:17 PM - Post#909340    



  • Dan John Said:
Well, Hibernate, Day One: woke up an hour before the alarm. Good dreams, slept all the way through (I'm guessing nine hours?), and no "hangover."

So, thumbs up so far. Hmmm. I can't believe that it worked better than my other stuff.



Haha, I'm glad to hear it worked so well!

It doesn't work for everyone, honestly, but we've found that healthier people tend to get vastly better results. Sleep, health, they have to be more deeply interwoven than we understand.

 
Dan John
*
Total Posts: 11956
04-01-21 01:39 PM - Post#909344    



I think that is almost a given. I did a workshop for some doctors in Portland and this kind of question came up. I answered, "It's this order:

1. Sleep
2. Food
3. Exercise"

THAT got more positive feedback than all my usual illuminating brilliance.
Daniel John
Just handing down what I was handed down...


Make a Difference.
Live. Love. Laugh.
Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude)
Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk.
Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth.
Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights.
Reread great books. Say thank you


 
Jordan Derksen
*
Total Posts: 232
04-01-21 02:25 PM - Post#909345    



Good point Dan. I remember years ago reading about weight loss and sleep. One of the easy things to address with weight loss is ‘how much are you sleeping?’

When I can get a really good night of sleep it’s amazing how I can wake up in the morning and my stomach is suddenly flat.

Consistent bad sleep just kills the hormones and the belly grows.

Looking forward to seeing if I get some hibernate in the mail. Please Canada please!


 
Jordan D
*
Total Posts: 521
04-03-21 12:52 PM - Post#909393    



It just occurred to me that the best fat-loss effort of my life happened in the same year that I really mastered my sleep. So, with 8-9 hours of sleep nightly, a low-cal diet of meat and vegetables, Easy Strength, and 30-60 minutes of daily walking, I set lifetime PRs while losing around 12lbs over 8 weeks, and never once feeling like I was making any hard effort.

Stupidly, it never struck me how essential the sleep was. Now, I see that Dan wrote "Get a good night’s sleep" first in the Easy Strength for Fat Loss thread, and I'm smacking my forehead and chuckling.
 
tom6112
*
Total Posts: 738
04-04-21 08:56 PM - Post#909417    



I guess I am lucky.
At 60 never have trouble following asleep
 
Kyle Aaron
*
Total Posts: 1809
Sleep Stack (Zn, Mg, Melatonin)
04-05-21 03:46 AM - Post#909422    



I have a history of insomnia, but really for me it was mostly connected with (at the time) poor mental health. I slept either 4hr a night, or just 2 nights out of 3. I wasn't in a good place.

Now that's passed. I take no frequent drugs or supplements except a hayfever med. I track my food in cronometer, but even when I don't, when I do the following,

- 3 cups of vegies a day
- mostly wholegrains
- not more than 3 standard drinks weekly
- 30-60' walk every day
- 30' jog 3 times a week
- my version of easy strength
- screens off by 2130, lights out 2230

My sleep is pretty good. Turns out the things that are good for me generally are also good for sleep. Who knew?

The exception is when I'm tossing and turning with my mind racing because of some worries or other - but invariably when I have those other worries, I'll fail to do most of the above. It's tricky: stress reduces good habits, but good habits reduce stress.

There are one or two other things, like coffee after 1800 or workout after 2000 stirs me up too much, but that seems more individual, the above seems to work for just about everyone.
Athletic Club East
Strength in numbers




Edited by Kyle Aaron on 04-05-21 03:51 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
 
Jordan D
*
Total Posts: 521
Re: Sleep Stack (Zn, Mg, Melatonin)
04-05-21 02:17 PM - Post#909437    



That's a spot on post, Kyle. It echoes the experience of many, many of the people I've heard from in the last few years. However, there is one thing...

  • Kyle Aaron Said:
There are one or two other things, like coffee after 1800 or workout after 2000 stirs me up too much, but that seems more individual, the above seems to work for just about everyone.



1800 staggered me for a second. I used to drink 1-2 pots of coffee a day. My resistance to caffeine was a point of pride. Then I cut it out after 10AM, and it made a WORLD of difference. They say caffeine metabolizes in 4-8 hours, so a noon coffee shouldn't affect most people at 11PM or later, but I suspect it increases sensitivity to light in the intervening hours. It's not that the metabolized caffeine prevents people from sleeping, but that it delays the onset of other sleep-cascade processes - even in people with a high tolerance. But a 6PM coffee is bound to diminish sleep quality for anyone, even if they still fall asleep relatively easily.

It's a positive feedback loop in my experience. No coffee after breakfast, and within a day or two, sleep quality improves, and you don't need the afternoon coffee anymore.

Ability to fall sleep isn't the real metric. Daytime energy levels are what tells the tale.

Thus my personal rule: coffee for the morning, green tea for the (early) afternoon. It only makes the morning coffee more enjoyable.
 
Browser
*
Total Posts: 497
Re: Sleep Stack (Zn, Mg, Melatonin)
04-05-21 02:39 PM - Post#909439    



  • Jordan D Said:
That's a spot on post, Kyle. It echoes the experience of many, many of the people I've heard from in the last few years. However, there is one thing...

  • Kyle Aaron Said:
There are one or two other things, like coffee after 1800 or workout after 2000 stirs me up too much, but that seems more individual, the above seems to work for just about everyone.



1800 staggered me for a second. I used to drink 1-2 pots of coffee a day. My resistance to caffeine was a point of pride. Then I cut it out after 10AM, and it made a WORLD of difference. They say caffeine metabolizes in 4-8 hours, so a noon coffee shouldn't affect most people at 11PM or later, but I suspect it increases sensitivity to light in the intervening hours. It's not that the metabolized caffeine prevents people from sleeping, but that it delays the onset of other sleep-cascade processes - even in people with a high tolerance. But a 6PM coffee is bound to diminish sleep quality for anyone, even if they still fall asleep relatively easily.

It's a positive feedback loop in my experience. No coffee after breakfast, and within a day or two, sleep quality improves, and you don't need the afternoon coffee anymore.

Ability to fall sleep isn't the real metric. Daytime energy levels are what tells the tale.

Thus my personal rule: coffee for the morning, green tea for the (early) afternoon. It only makes the morning coffee more enjoyable.





This is the truth for me too. Any time I have trouble sleeping, and I have had many rough stretches, it's always tied to life stresses that keep my mind chugging away when I just want to sleep. Then I try to shut my mind off and get frustrated when I can't and just lie there wide awake and miserable. That's not something that a secret vitamin cocktail is going to cure.

After much trial and error I've found my caffeine cuttoff is noon. I've also found that I actually sleep worse when I don't have 3-4 cups of coffee in the morning. Not sure why that is.
"The trouble about always trying to preserve the health of the body is that it is so difficult to do without destroying the health of the mind."~GK Chesterton


 
Jordan D
*
Total Posts: 521
Re: Sleep Stack (Zn, Mg, Melatonin)
04-05-21 04:15 PM - Post#909441    



  • Browser Said:
Any time I have trouble sleeping, and I have had many rough stretches, it's always tied to life stresses that keep my mind chugging away when I just want to sleep. Then I try to shut my mind off and get frustrated when I can't and just lie there wide awake and miserable. That's not something that a secret vitamin cocktail is going to cure.



I both agree and disagree with this. Disagree because I've found the vitamin cocktail, along with generally good sleep hygiene, diminishes how often late-night anxiety takes hold and keeps me awake. (Now, only about once every two months, whereas it was 3-5 times a week in the past.)

Yet I agree because late-night anxiety is a natural human process that everyone suffers in life, at least occasionally, and it undoubtedly serves a healthy physiological purpose. No one should be snoozing when there are wolves prowling around the camp.

The trick is making sure that our daylight behaviors aren't secretly contributing to nighttime stress. With coffee, it's a matter of not letting the treatment for the symptom exacerbate the cause. Or, not letting caffeine (and electric light) convince our sympathetic nervous systems that there are wolves prowling around when there aren't.
 
Kyle Aaron
*
Total Posts: 1809
Re: Sleep Stack (Zn, Mg, Melatonin)
04-05-21 10:20 PM - Post#909448    



  • Jordan D Said:
1800 staggered me for a second. I used to drink 1-2 pots of coffee a day.



I think it's affecting me more now so I might wind it back to 1600 and see how I go. I've known a lot of people say this happens as they age.

  • Quoting:
Ability to fall sleep isn't the real metric. Daytime energy levels are what tells the tale.


For me there's a fairly decent correlation between the two. I've never really had a day where I'm tossing and turning till 0130 and then bouncing around the next day.

Of course, most of us have certain times we have to wake up in the morning. Starting sleep later then means less sleep overall. So perhaps it's not the getting to sleep, but the total hours of sleep.

As well, it may also be that whatever was causing my difficulty in falling asleep is causing me to feel less than sterling the next day, too. There the poor sleep is symptom rather than cause.
Athletic Club East
Strength in numbers




Edited by Kyle Aaron on 04-05-21 10:21 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
 
Dan John
*
Total Posts: 11956
04-06-21 09:27 AM - Post#909461    



I'm waking up an hour before the alarm...and going to bed quite early, too. The Hibernate stuff is like a fine Scotch.

As for coffee, I can drink coffee and go to sleep with no issues. Alcohol does seem to impact my sleep far more than coffee. Obviously, my 23andme report basically told me this, too.

My daughter, Lindsay, and I both have very little impact on sleep from coffee. We both have the same reactions. This, personal reactions, is a big part of how I coach and develop individuals.

Of course, these personal reactions make me have to say "it depends" far too often.
Daniel John
Just handing down what I was handed down...


Make a Difference.
Live. Love. Laugh.
Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude)
Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk.
Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth.
Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights.
Reread great books. Say thank you


 
Mr. Kent
*
Total Posts: 516
04-06-21 10:51 AM - Post#909463    



  • Dan John Said:

Of course, these personal reactions make me have to say "it depends" far too often.



I'm wondering if these personal reactions can be categorized enough to distill them down to a few individual types. Looking at nature as an example there are a few distinct blood types and eye colors. Perhaps these reactions to certain compounds (caffeine in this example) can be categorized in the same way and then used to help folks determine their own personal strategies.
 
Brian Hassler
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Total Posts: 489
04-06-21 02:00 PM - Post#909471    



I'm the same with regards to caffeine not affecting me. I also find that the whole blue light thing doesn't affect me, either. I'll often look at apps on my phone in bed because it makes me tired. If I try reading a book in bed, however, I'll be up all night.
 
Browser
*
Total Posts: 497
04-06-21 02:25 PM - Post#909472    



  • Brian Hassler Said:
I'm the same with regards to caffeine not affecting me. I also find that the whole blue light thing doesn't affect me, either. I'll often look at apps on my phone in bed because it makes me tired. If I try reading a book in bed, however, I'll be up all night.




I can't read a book with a plot in bed either! When I'm having trouble sleeping reading poetry or scripture will sometimes put me to sleep though.
"The trouble about always trying to preserve the health of the body is that it is so difficult to do without destroying the health of the mind."~GK Chesterton


 
Jordan D
*
Total Posts: 521
Sleep Stack (Zn, Mg, Melatonin)
04-06-21 02:26 PM - Post#909473    



  • Dan John Said:
I'm waking up an hour before the alarm...and going to bed quite early, too. The Hibernate stuff is like a fine Scotch.



That just made my day.

  • Mr. Kent Said:
I'm wondering if these personal reactions can be categorized enough to distill them down to a few individual types. Looking at nature as an example there are a few distinct blood types and eye colors. Perhaps these reactions to certain compounds (caffeine in this example) can be categorized in the same way and then used to help folks determine their own personal strategies.



See the 4 "chronotypes" (circadian rhythm patterns) in Dr. Michael Breus's book " The Power of When." It apparently relates to the length of your PER3 gene and can be expressed in 4 types, or "Sleep Animals":

Bear Chronotype - The most common at 50-55% of the population, bears tend to follow the typical night/day schedule and sleep well, though it might take them longer to get going in the morning. They're usually social, gregarious people.

Lion Chronotype - About 15% of the population, lions are early birds and hunters. They're the Type A COO's, managers and drill sergeants who wake up, exercise, and coordinate the day's projects before the rest of the world has had it's coffee.

Dolphin Chronotype - Actual dolphins (the marine species) sleep with one side of the brain functioning at all times, keeping them alert for predators. Dr. Breus used this animal to represent the 10% of humans who struggle with insomnia and other sleep disorders - they typically wake from sleep unrested, struggle with napping, and are often tired throughout the day with a spurt of energy in the evening.

Wolf Chronotype - Wolf Chronotypes make up 15% of the population and they're the night-owls who are most active and alert in the early evening hours and are somewhat out of sync with the rest of the world.



Edited by Jordan D on 04-06-21 02:27 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
 
Jordan Derksen
*
Total Posts: 232
04-14-21 09:30 AM - Post#909631    



Finally had a decent sleep last night. I don't have hibernate yet but it should be here soon.

The last couple weeks it's been overheating at night, waking up early and staying awake, and lying there trying to sleep while hearing my heartbeat thump in the pillow.

Taking a light week this week. It's been 5 days since my last work out (last friday). Why is it that I'm at this stage in life where sleep is better when not working out.

Gotta learn to keep excitability of workouts down. This is where bodyweight and kettlebell stuff seems to shine. Every time I make a return to the barbell and give it a little push this seems to happen.


 
read the bread book
*
Total Posts: 86
04-14-21 01:57 PM - Post#909642    



  • Jordan Derksen Said:
Finally had a decent sleep last night. I don't have hibernate yet but it should be here soon.

The last couple weeks it's been overheating at night, waking up early and staying awake, and lying there trying to sleep while hearing my heartbeat thump in the pillow.

Taking a light week this week. It's been 5 days since my last work out (last friday). Why is it that I'm at this stage in life where sleep is better when not working out.

Gotta learn to keep excitability of workouts down. This is where bodyweight and kettlebell stuff seems to shine. Every time I make a return to the barbell and give it a little push this seems to happen.



anecdotally that's exactly how it is for me. lots of long steady state and calisthenics/more kb medium volume workouts and I sleep like the dead. Once i'm on big and heavy I don't know if it's my nervous system or what but I am wired and can't sleep very well that night. The last time I tested my deadlift 1rm (and got that fun full body shake during the lift) I didn't sleep right for like two days.
 
Jordan Derksen
*
Total Posts: 232
04-15-21 02:26 PM - Post#909662    



More and more I’m debating selling my barbell and bumper plates so that I never succumb to its siren call of gains again. Especially in this market I might even make money on them.

Just like you, I can recover from kettlebells and calisthenics quickly and sleep well.


 
Kyle Aaron
*
Total Posts: 1809
04-15-21 11:00 PM - Post#909667    



It's not the tool, it's the tool using the tool.

Keep them. Use them well. Remember what Hemingway said: old men are not wise, they are cautious.
Athletic Club East
Strength in numbers


 
Henry
*
Total Posts: 1212
04-16-21 08:34 AM - Post#909671    



My sleep stack - one cup of chocolate milk plus teaspoon of plain cocoa, heated in the microwave.


 
dhartnet
*
Total Posts: 1310
04-16-21 02:32 PM - Post#909683    



I use some supps for sleep when needed ("EAA Sleep" - Primeval Labs, "Sedative" - Glaxon Supps, "Somatomax" - HI-Tech (use sparingly, contains Phenibut), and one by Redcon. Lately just 2 GABA pills (1 gram) and a Magnolia Extract cap and its lights out...
Dave




 
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