BChase
Total Posts: 854
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Dan John
Total Posts: 12292
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05-23-20 03:44 PM - Post#898385
I agree on everything you listed.
I never really deadlifted. As an O lifter, it is just "more." I tried to get my snatch up with Snatch Grip DLs and I think it made me really strong as snatch grip DLs...
Daniel John
Just handing down what I was handed down...
Make a Difference.
Live. Love. Laugh.
Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude)
Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk.
Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth.
Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights.
Reread great books. Say thank you |
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iPood
Total Posts: 2360
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I love pulling from the floor, but I kind of agree with Thib on this.
Power cleans and snatch grip deadlifts are way more than enough for me. I would even dare to suggest that heavy double KB cleans could cover all my needs and then some.
"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness
and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums.
It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable.
Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow.
Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't."
Dan Martin |
Edited by iPood on 05-23-20 05:14 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Browser
Total Posts: 507
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I totally agree that the deadlift sucks if done for the sake of something else. There are better exercises if your goal is muscle mass or athletic performance or general fitness. About the only reason to train it is for it’s own sake, for competition or just because it’s cool to have a big pull. Otherwise it takes much more than it gives.
"The trouble about always trying to preserve the health of the body is that it is so difficult to do without destroying the health of the mind."~GK Chesterton
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Edited by Browser on 05-23-20 03:59 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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tom6112
Total Posts: 846
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05-23-20 05:02 PM - Post#898390
I love deadlifts and always do them.
But I do other types of pulls.
I am someone with non lifters body
Short torso and long limbs.
I like to do a lot of different movements but always deadlift once a week
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Adam S
Total Posts: 629
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The deadlift is great for a few things, among them self-knowledge. I can think of three lessons that I learned from deadlifting. After taking first in the deadlift in my first (and only) powerlifting meet as a 129 pound lifter in the 132-pound class, I learned that hip injuries can take a long time to heal. Then, several years later, after working up to my all time best deadlift in the gym (400 at the same bodyweight), I learned that elbow nerve entrapment injuries take a REALLY long time to heal and sometimes require surgery (mine did). Then, as an old man, I learned that even light deadlifting can reveal how bad your scoliosis has gotten. Having learned what I can from the lift, I don't do it anymore.
| Why are you squatting in the curl rack? |
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iPood
Total Posts: 2360
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I totally agree that the deadlift sucks if done for the sake of something else. There are better exercises if your goal is muscle mass or athletic performance or general fitness. About the only reason to train it is for it’s own sake, for competition or just because it’s cool to have a big pull. Otherwise it takes much more than it gives.
And I would also add another heresy: incline bench gives me WAY more than any other press (including flat bench and overhead).
"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness
and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums.
It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable.
Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow.
Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't."
Dan Martin |
Edited by iPood on 05-23-20 05:19 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Dan John
Total Posts: 12292
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05-23-20 05:38 PM - Post#898393
As a youth, I stated that...at MY age!!!...all I would need is Incline Bench Press and Squat Snatch.
I still think that is pretty good.
Daniel John
Just handing down what I was handed down...
Make a Difference.
Live. Love. Laugh.
Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude)
Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk.
Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth.
Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights.
Reread great books. Say thank you |
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iPood
Total Posts: 2360
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05-23-20 05:49 PM - Post#898394
As a youth, I stated that...at MY age!!!...all I would need is Incline Bench Press and Squat Snatch.
I still think that is pretty good.
That, plus loaded carries. I might try this as soon as lockdown is over and gyms reopen.
"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness
and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums.
It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable.
Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow.
Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't."
Dan Martin |
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Jordan D
Total Posts: 771
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05-23-20 06:22 PM - Post#898396
I love deadlifts. I’m horrible at them, and they exacerbate old back injuries on occasion, but nothing makes me feel springier and more athletic than a deadlift cycle with no squats. Beats me why.
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DanMartin
Total Posts: 20705
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05-23-20 06:52 PM - Post#898397
I deadlifted once a week for years. It was always my Thursday or Friday lift so I had the weekend to recover.
If you aren't pursuing a big total in powertlifting, then there is no need to lift more than double bodyweight and even then, not that often.
I still prefer the power clean over the deadlift, but most folks don't want to put the time in to learn the lift.
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ohiojosh
Total Posts: 47
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A bad deadlift rep injured my back and caused major sciatic pain that I've lived with for about 3 years. I was careless and pop, that did it. Very stupid on my part. Since then I've been doing trap bar deadlifts, and have really grown to love them. I do them using the same technique I used pulling conventional deadlifts as opposed to the more squatty style you sometimes see. They certainly seem to be a bit more forgiving, plus you can really load them up and go heavy which is great. I know even Jim Wendler has moved to mostly deadlifting with the trap bar and squatting with the safety bar.
Edited by ohiojosh on 05-23-20 07:21 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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vegpedlr
Total Posts: 1179
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05-23-20 07:55 PM - Post#898400
The DL and KB swings taught me how to feel the hinge movement as different from the squat. A little time with in a MTB skills clinic taught me how that hinging strength is useful. The DL gives me good crossover value while saving my legs for running and cycling. Squats beat up my legs if I’m not careful.
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Matt_T
Total Posts: 379
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05-23-20 08:41 PM - Post#898403
I love deadlifts. I’m horrible at them, and they exacerbate old back injuries on occasion, but nothing makes me feel springier and more athletic than a deadlift cycle with no squats. Beats me why.
Word. I'm not horrible at them but still , word.
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BrianBinVA
Total Posts: 5140
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As a youth, I stated that...at MY age!!!...all I would need is Incline Bench Press and Squat Snatch.
I still think that is pretty good.
I've always thought the snatch-grip DL and the incline bench was the secret sauce PTTP variant. At least it was for me. Till I stopped doing it, naturally.
Throw in a warmup of some two-hand swings, goblet squats and one-kb carries (Cook drill) and you are gold.
Edited by BrianBinVA on 05-23-20 11:19 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Gunvald
Total Posts: 4442
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265 for me 05-24-20 02:35 AM - Post#898407
I started to do deadlifts regularly a few months ago and I like the exercise. I will however never go over 120kg / 265 lbs working weight, and I dont dare to max out. Too scared of all the deadlift stories and how they ended. I also want to be able and deadlift for the rest of my life.. even when I'm 80.
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RupertC
Total Posts: 1479
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Lots of people on here recommended the Tactical Barbell book. One of the big take-homes from the book for me was the idea that you can maintain a respectable deadlift while only training it one session a month. I have tested this on myself (N=1) and found it to be true. If I've ever left it more than a month, then not so much...
| Check out my critical-thinking blog at sharpenyouraxe.substack.com |
Edited by RupertC on 05-25-20 03:45 AM. Reason for edit: Got name of book wrong first time around
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BChase
Total Posts: 854
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05-24-20 07:33 AM - Post#898411
I used to love incline press. My shoulder cracks every time I do them so that's not in the arsenal anymore.
I barbell deadlifted in 4-5 years. Got to almost 2x, that was good enough.
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Roger Clarvin
Total Posts: 72
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05-24-20 08:14 AM - Post#898413
To what extent would this apply to someone doing deadlifts in the context of ES, where you are:
-keeping the weights light/easy/crisp, which would seem to address two of the concerns--that DLs are generally draining and that the negative is often sloppy
-also probably doing a bunch of swings, which would seem to address the issue that DLs lack the loaded stretch
-hitting the DL for maybe ten workouts and then rotating through other hinge alternatives (some of which might involve a full front squat and therefore be more well rounded--clean and snatch)?
I dunno, it seems like it's not a criticism of deadlifts per se but rather: deadlifts done too heavy--ie, poorly--and too much--ie, to the exclusion of other stuff. And to that extent, I guess I agree.
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Ricky01
Total Posts: 709
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05-24-20 08:14 AM - Post#898414
My favourite exercise all through rugby (that and push press)....maintaining two times bodyweight for reps by the time the season ended told me I was fit and well and uninjured.
In the end it contributed to herniated disc (ironically in the off season)....I was all prime movers and no stabalisers.
Now I think an abikirt to pick up things (kids, shopping, garden pots etc) day to day often needs to be taught to people and is vitally important.
Richard
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Jordan D
Total Posts: 771
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05-24-20 09:15 AM - Post#898415
To what extent would this apply to someone doing deadlifts in the context of ES, where you are:
-keeping the weights light/easy/crisp, which would seem to address two of the concerns--that DLs are generally draining and that the negative is often sloppy
-also probably doing a bunch of swings, which would seem to address the issue that DLs lack the loaded stretch
-hitting the DL for maybe ten workouts and then rotating through other hinge alternatives (some of which might involve a full front squat and therefore be more well rounded--clean and snatch)?
I dunno, it seems like it's not a criticism of deadlifts per se but rather: deadlifts done too heavy--ie, poorly--and too much--ie, to the exclusion of other stuff. And to that extent, I guess I agree.
I think this is it. ES-style deadlifts don’t feel like deadlifts after two weeks. They feel like snappy, heavy swings. Somewhat similar for the 1-2-3-1-2-3 pyramid style workouts at reasonable weights. These take nothing out of me. These make me feel stronger. I think a lot of Internet peoples just haven’t figured out that long-term sub maximal training is a thing.
I still prefer the power clean over the deadlift, but most folks don't want to put the time in to learn the lift.
Agreed.
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vegpedlr
Total Posts: 1179
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05-24-20 10:17 AM - Post#898419
I . I think a lot of Internet peoples just haven’t figured out that long-term sub maximal training is a thing.
Wait, wha?! No pain no gain, bro.
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Adam S
Total Posts: 629
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05-24-20 10:44 AM - Post#898420
Great thread: As an alternative to barbell deadlifts, trap bar deads are great. Of course, trap bar deadlifts seem to be a very different exercise, but that's not a bad thing. I have found them much easier on the back, though sometimes my knees squawk a bit from them. A lot of bodybuilders don't deadlift from the floor, but prefer rack deads from knee height or lower. This is also a more forgiving approach.
People have mentioned incline presses. I recall that Bill Starr sung the praises of that exercise in The Strongest Shall Survive and in some of his Iron Man columns. I find the barbell version tough on my shoulders, and the fixed incline benches in most commercial gyms seem too steep. I prefer to use dumbbells on an adjustable incline bench. The dumbbells allow for more natural movement and you can adjust movement path and hand orientation based on whatever is hurting that day. The adjustable bench similarly allows you to fine tune the exercise better. The only problem is getting the dumbbells into position. I try to keep my reps on inclines above 8, so that I am forced to use reasonable weights and don't have to use dumbbells that are heavy enough to frighten me.
A workout of trap bar deads, incline dumbbell presses, and maybe either chins or chest supported rows would cover the body nicely if you want a consolidated routine. Maybe finish with face pulls or Ys (cable, band, or whatever) and a superset or two of triceps and biceps ("beach work"). Of course, some of us like a lot more variety and bodypart specialization, and with the gyms closed now in a lot of places, this (for me at least) is a not-now, if ever, idea.
| Why are you squatting in the curl rack? |
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DanMartin
Total Posts: 20705
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Great thread: As an alternative to barbell deadlifts, trap bar deads are great. Of course, trap bar deadlifts seem to be a very different exercise, but that's not a bad thing. I have found them much easier on the back, though sometimes my knees squawk a bit from them. A lot of bodybuilders don't deadlift from the floor, but prefer rack deads from knee height or lower. This is also a more forgiving approach.
People have mentioned incline presses. I recall that Bill Starr sung the praises of that exercise in The Strongest Shall Survive and in some of his Iron Man columns. I find the barbell version tough on my shoulders, and the fixed incline benches in most commercial gyms seem too steep. I prefer to use dumbbells on an adjustable incline bench. The dumbbells allow for more natural movement and you can adjust movement path and hand orientation based on whatever is hurting that day. The adjustable bench similarly allows you to fine tune the exercise better. The only problem is getting the dumbbells into position. I try to keep my reps on inclines above 8, so that I am forced to use reasonable weights and don't have to use dumbbells that are heavy enough to frighten me.
A workout of trap bar deads, incline dumbbell presses, and maybe either chins or chest supported rows would cover the body nicely if you want a consolidated routine. Maybe finish with face pulls or Ys (cable, band, or whatever) and a superset or two of triceps and biceps ("beach work"). Of course, some of us like a lot more variety and bodypart specialization, and with the gyms closed now in a lot of places, this (for me at least) is a not-now, if ever, idea.
The incline press, especially with dumbbells is just about the most perfect exercise, IMO. There are a lot of ya buts though.
The type of incline bench made all the difference. The common seated incline bench always seemed to cause my back some issues. I would end up all scrunched. Especially if I was using a barbell. Dumbbells were a little better and keeping the bench at a rather low incline (30 degrees) worked.
All of that said, the best, for me, was a full length "standing" incline bench. My Dad made me one at it was grand. It was 60 degrees and my whole body fit on it, even my head! Once my partners handed me the dumbbells it was off to the races.
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Brian Hassler
Total Posts: 616
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05-24-20 11:19 AM - Post#898422
They seemed to work okay for Allyson Felix.
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DanMartin
Total Posts: 20705
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I want to add, if I was given an either/or, the deadlift would be on my short list of keepers. Regardless of the persuasive nature of the article, a lot of good quality of muscle and a butt load of practical strength has been gained from using the deadlift correctly.
The deadlift, and this is just my opinion, is an exercise that works best when not taken to the limit. Obviously that doesn't apply to powerlifting meets, but most who deadlift never step on a platform.
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vegpedlr
Total Posts: 1179
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05-24-20 11:41 AM - Post#898425
A workout of trap bar deads, incline dumbbell presses, and maybe either chins or chest supported rows would cover the body nicely if you want a consolidated routine. Maybe finish with face pulls or Ys (cable, band, or whatever) and a superset or two of triceps and biceps ("beach work").
If I trained in a commercial gym, this would be in my ES rotation. I’ve done somewhat similar in the past and liked it. Low incline DB beach is great. I’ve just now put some time into the trap bar DL and I like it.
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Adam S
Total Posts: 629
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05-24-20 12:13 PM - Post#898428
A workout of trap bar deads, incline dumbbell presses, and maybe either chins or chest supported rows would cover the body nicely if you want a consolidated routine. Maybe finish with face pulls or Ys (cable, band, or whatever) and a superset or two of triceps and biceps ("beach work").
If I trained in a commercial gym, this would be in my ES rotation. I’ve done somewhat similar in the past and liked it. Low incline DB beach is great. I’ve just now put some time into the trap bar DL and I like it.
I agree with both you and Dan about the low incline. Like Dan, I try to stay around 30 degrees. I'll go higher sometimes, but 30 (or even less) is my go-to. Sometimes, I'd start fairly high, and lower it each set to work from shoulder down to pecs, and to take advantage of the mechanical advantage of a lower incline as I fatigue.
| Why are you squatting in the curl rack? |
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AronLZ
Total Posts: 214
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05-24-20 02:25 PM - Post#898430
I did Dead lifts for about half a year when I was a Junior in High school, tried them again for a few months in my late 20's. I have always hated them, I'm 6'1'' with a longer waist so this exercise just never felt good.
I do SLDL or Romanian dead lifts now, great exercise and feels natural to my structure. Dead lifts are certianlly great if you are a: Strongman/woman or power lifter but they are useless for bodybuilding IMO.
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tom6112
Total Posts: 846
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05-24-20 02:32 PM - Post#898431
I am not going to apologize i love deadlifts
At 59 I do them once a week.
Yesterday I cleaned out my basement which involved a lot of deadlifts but no squats or bench pressing
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Brian Hassler
Total Posts: 616
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...a butt load of practical strength has been gained from using the deadlift correctly.
I don't know if that was intentional, but I loved it.
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Jordan Derksen
Total Posts: 392
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05-25-20 10:15 AM - Post#898463
I always found the olympic lifts made me better at deadlifting than deadlifting did.
I'm working in snatch and clean and jerk again now that it's warm enough to lift on my platform in my shop. Now that I have this whole new perspective of movements instead of exercises it has become obvious how complete those 2 lifts are. It nails down hinge, squat, and pull. One could argue for press as well.
It's funny if you pull it apart, in my experience the quick lifts also made me better at squatting than just squatting did.
Really if you look at it, once you get to a decent level of proficiency the lifts are heavy enough to be light enough to 'easy strength' the hinge and squat movement. Frequent practice at sub-maximal loads of those movement patterns with the power dynamic thrown in. I'm trying a new thing now. I've done olympic lifts with no deadlifts, not even lift specific ones. It worked better. Now I'm trying olympic lifts with no extra squats. After reading up on a few top level lifters who would never squat more than they could clean (or max 110%) I realized that placing a big emphasis on my squat when I was competing probably held me back in the long run. My legs were always tired. If I could do it over again, better to keep the goal the goal and limit the squat as an accessory. I worried about it too much. It'll be a fun experiment.
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Neander
Total Posts: 7755
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The deadlift is great for a few things, among them self-knowledge.
That's a great point. They can tell you a lot about the whys behind your lifting on any given day. About your ego and about what drives you to want to lift that day.
I hope I never have to drop them completely from my lifting, but there's a crap ton of ways to implement the regular deadlift, and I'm sure we all know those ways.
Sure, there's other lifts and exercises to choose from, but nothing else matches the beautiful simplicity of just picking a bar up from the floor and standing up with it, and how alive that can make you feel.
Some people write off lighter deadlifts as useless.
As usual, it all depends on what it is exactly you're trying to achieve when you lift that day.
Life's too short to worry about longevity.
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Edited by Neander on 05-25-20 05:12 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Silverback61
Total Posts: 1834
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05-28-20 07:27 PM - Post#898587
I Totally Disagree with "Thib" - Deadlifts are one of the few exercises worth doing.
It Is Better To Be Stronger Than You Look, Than Look Stronger Than You Are
My Weights Are In Freedom Units
DEADLIFTS RULE!!
=[[[[[[--------]]]]]]= |
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AAnnunz
Total Posts: 24932
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From a biography found on https://www.greatestphysiques.com/male-physiques/christ ian-thibaudeau/
"After years of hard work and effort, Christian managed to build a strong and well-built physique. He also learned a number of new techniques which he gradually incorporated into his routine.
"One of these exercises was the dead lift. He knew how useful the dead lift could be for bodybuilding, but he also knew that it was a popular movement for Olympic lifts. It was this knowledge that led him down the path to Olympic competitions."
Hmmmm.
| Be strong. Be in shape. Be a man among men, regardless of your age or circumstances. |
Edited by AAnnunz on 05-28-20 08:14 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Old Miler
Total Posts: 1744
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05-29-20 04:42 PM - Post#898608
I'm not aiming for competition, just trying to get back to 2.0x BW with easy strength, but I love deadlifts. However knackered I feel before lifting, I feel better after.
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Upside
Total Posts: 185
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05-29-20 04:50 PM - Post#898610
AAnnunz-
Hmmmmm indeed.
Sometimes I guess a guy just has deadlines to meet.
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Silverback61
Total Posts: 1834
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From a biography found on https://www.greatestphysiques.com/male-physiques/christ ian-thibaudeau/
"After years of hard work and effort, Christian managed to build a strong and well-built physique. He also learned a number of new techniques which he gradually incorporated into his routine.
"One of these exercises was the dead lift. He knew how useful the dead lift could be for bodybuilding, but he also knew that it was a popular movement for Olympic lifts. It was this knowledge that led him down the path to Olympic competitions."
Hmmmm.
Interesting find. Just another reason to not waste time on T Nation.
It Is Better To Be Stronger Than You Look, Than Look Stronger Than You Are
My Weights Are In Freedom Units
DEADLIFTS RULE!!
=[[[[[[--------]]]]]]= |
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Mike L
Total Posts: 43
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05-30-20 09:34 AM - Post#898624
I "like" deadlifts, but I rarely do them anymore so I think that is something. I've stripped away a lot.
I think deadlifts and single leg deadlifts are a bit of skill building movements.
There's a lot to learn, understand how to move the body, how to get the timing down. Translates to life movements of picking things up. But once I learned it, the benefits diminished pretty quickly. Got to 2x body weight and ... sort of hmmmm... why do more? Now I do it as a sort of tune up just to see if I'm moving well.
Single leg deadlifts are the same but more skill. Check for balance, left/right issue, mobility. Once I got to certain weight...not worth it.
I'd even say get ups are the same. Once I learned the skill and moved better, I don't want that weight wobbling precariously over my head.
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Pepper
Total Posts: 296
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05-30-20 04:05 PM - Post#898633
Deadlifts are in the top-three lifts that have had the quickest carryover to my sport and life. The other are chin ups and carries. But I am 6'5, so they are, well, different for me.
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Old Miler
Total Posts: 1744
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05-30-20 05:40 PM - Post#898635
Got to 2x body weight and ... sort of hmmmm... why do more?
This seems to be the common theme: anyone can get to 2xBW with application, and can benefit in other areas from getting to it.
It's all I ever aspired to, got there for a couple of years, working my way back there now.
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DanMartin
Total Posts: 20705
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05-30-20 07:19 PM - Post#898636
I'm going to find a picture of me deadlifting.
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DanMartin
Total Posts: 20705
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I have no idea why the picture is sideways. Clicking the attachment has it right.
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blkjss
Total Posts: 2265
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06-02-20 09:55 AM - Post#898697
I switched to Rack Pull and Snatch Grip Rack Pull since Dan and the others agreed on full range DL is not necessary.
I have started doing RDL now, starting light,a and it feels good.
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iPood
Total Posts: 2360
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06-02-20 10:25 AM - Post#898700
I switched to Rack Pull and Snatch Grip Rack Pull since Dan and the others agreed on full range DL is not necessary.
I have started doing RDL now, starting light,a and it feels good.
Trust me, give snatch grip RDLs a try. You won't regret it.
"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness
and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums.
It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable.
Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow.
Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't."
Dan Martin |
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BrianBinVA
Total Posts: 5140
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06-02-20 02:15 PM - Post#898707
I switched to Rack Pull and Snatch Grip Rack Pull since Dan and the others agreed on full range DL is not necessary.
I have started doing RDL now, starting light,a and it feels good.
Trust me, give snatch grip RDLs a try. You won't regret it.
Yep. Snatch grip DL/RDL is my DL variant of choice (and the only barbell lift I do)
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Eric R
Total Posts: 264
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06-02-20 03:01 PM - Post#898708
Not the same thing, but I wanted to set a goal of hitting 315lbs*15 on the SLDL before my 40th birthday last year. I set up a long cycle and achieved it a week early.
I literally got no development from it but I felt like I was beaten to a pulp for 3 days after that.
Deads stink.
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Adam S
Total Posts: 629
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06-02-20 04:10 PM - Post#898709
When I was training for a powerlifting meet, every time I would get in the rack to squat, our team coach would say "Big Legs. Big Legs." I always assumed he was being ironic.
| Why are you squatting in the curl rack? |
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Vicki
Total Posts: 8196
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06-02-20 08:50 PM - Post#898719
One-hand alternating KB DL is what I am finding useful now. It is good for this old lady.
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Andy Mitchell
Total Posts: 5269
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06-02-20 09:51 PM - Post#898720
I can never really understand why a person can write about an exercise being generally worthless .
But I also understand like with the calf raise, one can lift a lot of weight due to the advantage of good leverage.
It doesn’t make it a poor exercise but to do the calf raise often will (like the dead-lift) end in tears.
The big three is great and the dead-lift IMO is A great exercise and the easiest to master.
These days I’m doing the SLDL
Nice legs-shame about the face
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