10-16-18 04:08 AM - Post#872168    

Out of curiosity why would anyone do S&S over DMPM?

Can it have something to do with the "testing" aspect mentioned earlier?

10-16-18 04:58 AM - Post#872171    

• Arthax Said:

That could be easily corrected, provided the-other-Dan would finally write an e-book (I've been nagging him about this for a long time).

"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums. It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable. Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow. Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't." Dan Martin

10-16-18 08:19 AM - Post#872179    

One might choose S&S over DMPM because it's more focused and the test goals are part of that. It's also a good experiment in minimalism.

"Coyote is always waiting, and Coyote is always hungry."

10-16-18 09:29 AM - Post#872186    

• iPood Said:

Ha! No reason for an e-book since the Lifetime Warrior Workout is already available as a PDF..

Mark it Zero.

10-16-18 09:54 AM - Post#872188    

• Arthax Said:

I was intrigued by Pavel’s three minimalist programs consisting two exercises, one BB, another KB, and a BW program. It really got me thinking about how much is really needed and effective, and how much is extraneous. I’ve never run one because it seems that just two exercises isn’t quite enough to hit the basic human movements. Though DL and a press is pretty close.

As for S&S, I want to run it, but the TGU holds me back. And whenever I think about it, it just seems like the DMPM is better and more complete. I will run it during a summer race season as maintenance and for fun either alone, or in combination with the DMPM. I think the testing to achieve a standard is part of its appeal. I also think the weights are a little high. I think 24 for Simple nd 32 for Sinister better represents a basic GPP standard.

10-16-18 01:39 PM - Post#872206    

• vegpedlr Said:

Concur that the S&S goals are over ambitious and your suggestion more reasonable. I've been using a 6kg for TGUs and 24 for swings because I suck at TGUs. I can see myself getting to 24kg TGU and 32kg one arm swings (the female standard) but not much past that.

"Coyote is always waiting, and Coyote is always hungry."

10-16-18 03:16 PM - Post#872210    

I ran this program for nearly a year, and the "testing" aspect kept me going far longer than I should have stuck with it. Heavy 1H swings aren't for everyone. Pretty sure it turned me off to them forever.

01-27-20 05:34 PM - Post#893240    

Stumbled across this old thread and found it very interesting. S&S is pretty much all I've done for years aside from a few rounds of enter the kettlebell, I even made it to the 48kg!

This thread got me thinking about really heavy swings and get ups. The heavy swings won't be as powerful as the moderate ones and the heavy gets ups could be a perfect example of the risk reward spectrum. I see these as two potential criticisms. I did however love the program, got stronger and always felt fresh. Would I have gotten even stronger on some other program? I'm not sure...

Simple and Sinister Reviews
01-28-20 12:54 AM - Post#893254    

• NJRick Said:

Oh, but I am.

S&S is, in my opinion, a nice introduction to exercise for the sedentary, or something to do between programs as a decompression of sorts and it even works as a finisher. So it's not without value, but as a standalone program... never liked it.

Had you spent the same amount of time following PttP, now you would be way, way, waaaaaaaaay stronger (which may not be your goal, and that's perfectly fine).

The best program is the one you keep doing. If S&S does that for you, kudos to you!

"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums. It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable. Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow. Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't." Dan Martin

Edited by iPood on 01-28-20 12:57 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

01-28-20 07:31 AM - Post#893261    

I’ve always liked this program. Very simple minimalist that you can plug in when life is busy. The 2.0 book is excellent and introduces the talk test as a means of regulating rest. As GPP it’s solid. I like the 1H swing and the get up is a great exercise
Dan kettlebell book also has lots of kettlebells programs that can be stripped back to suit a minimalist approach. Each man to himself as they say

01-28-20 08:40 AM - Post#893264    

Oh boy, I am actually thinking about giving this program another go to see if I could meet the 48kg goal in 2020.

Anyone want to talk me out of it? :D

My gym is closed for renovations and to be honest the only thing I miss is the concept 2 rower.

Re: Simple and Sinister Reviews
01-28-20 08:43 AM - Post#893265    

• iPood Said:

Good point, a deadlift program would have definitely been more likely to build strength. However, I'd argue that if S&S is a finisher than the focus is no longer on quality and strength.
I also agree 100 percent that the best program is the one that you follow! That's why this DJ article inspired my training for the past few years, my priority was consistency and sustainability.

https://www.strongfirst.com/things-are-going-so-w ell-help-me-screw-it-up-p art-2/

01-28-20 08:45 AM - Post#893266    

I'm still waiting to be paid for that article.

Daniel John Just handing down what I was handed down... Make a Difference. Live. Love. Laugh. Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude) Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk. Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth. Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights. Reread great books. Say thank you

01-28-20 08:50 AM - Post#893267    

Since this thread has resurfaced, let me throw this out... I see a lot of talk about the risk/reward of full TGUs, and I think there is wisdom there.

I have made a couple of modifications to the TGU and I think it is a lifetime exercise for me now. First, I use a lighter kettlebell (for me this means ~1/2 what I would press with) and hold it bottom's up. It becomes great for the grip, shoulder stabilizers, obliques and overall balance and if something goes wrong the worst thing that happens is the KB flops down on your forearm.

Second, at the top I stand on one leg (the side holding the weight) and hold it like a plank for 20 seconds or so before descending. This is again great for balance but moreover it really "screws me together"... the whole chain from my grip to the soles of my feet tightens into one piece. (I also hold the glute bridge like a plank on the way down, but I think that is more standard.)

01-28-20 09:00 AM - Post#893268    

Naked getups. Learning to do a handstand. Learning to tumble/fall out of a handstand.

Worthier pursuits, IMO.

01-28-20 09:36 AM - Post#893271    

• Jordan D Said:

These days I tend to do a few minutes of DJ's get-back-ups in as many different ways I can think of. One of them is always naked TGUs.

"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums. It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable. Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow. Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't." Dan Martin

01-28-20 11:22 AM - Post#893276    

Pavel's two exercise routines seem a bit restrictive to me. But it's a nice minimalist counterpoint to "maximalist" bodybuilding type stuff.

I guess I'm a medium-ist.

01-29-20 06:42 AM - Post#893295    

Why is this program still talked about after 7 long years? The program minimum was a break in program for Enter The Kettlebell, do it until you're ready.

As correctly stated above, as a finisher or if you only have 15 minutes, great, but if I were younger, I would have hated wasting time on this to get strong when you could have deadlifted, squatted, done double kettlebells instead.

There is no WTH effect. I like getups and see their value, but they are not a magic pill. There is no need to do heavy 1 hand swings. I'd rather do moderately heavy swings with snap then not getting a heavy bell to even my waist. Or do two hand or snatches any day of the week.

In my opinion this book was the catalyst that ruined any type of variety in the kettlebell community. And what's funny is people cling to it, because they don't have any creativity to make up their own programs.

Dan, don't hold your breath about getting paid.

01-29-20 08:44 AM - Post#893298    

• BChase Said:

Sure there is. It’s best described as “average sedentary mopes becoming fitter and healthier through exercise while someone with a suspicious accent waves their hands and talks about magic.”

Now, I love the contributions they’ve made over there. Lots of good books to read. But if strength is the glass that contains all other qualities, then S&S was like filling it up one quickly evaporating teardrop at a time.

01-29-20 10:54 AM - Post#893301    

I'm a little surprised at the animosity.

01-29-20 11:14 AM - Post#893302    

• vegpedlr Said:

I agree. It is fair to criticize the program's flaws and to say it is overrated, but I didn't expect this much criticism, especially because in the past it was a DJ recommendation. However, part of the reason I really like this forum is because I get more diverse opinions.

01-29-20 11:21 AM - Post#893303    

The fact that they released a second edition of the book with new information such as how to transition from one bell to a heavier bell, and how to take more rest between sets, and that people who already own the first edition are then also buying the second edition for these tiny scraps of additional “knowledge” IMO tells you everything you need to know about how far things have fallen in the kettlebell training world.

Sadly I stupidly also (it caught me at a weak moment) bought the newer Q&D book, which is even more ridiculous. But I can say for sure that will be the last SF/Pavel book or product I ever purchase.

Log

01-29-20 11:31 AM - Post#893305    

• BChase Said:

WTH effect is one of those YMMV things. Some find something significant and others nothing. A new thing that fills a hole you in your training may produce a significant improvement. S&S didn't do much for me but I'm enjoying high volume snatches with a heavy (for me) weight. It's making me feel "well knit". There's a Zen simplicity to it and can I do other things on alternate days for variety.

"Coyote is always waiting, and Coyote is always hungry."

Simple and Sinister Reviews
01-29-20 11:44 AM - Post#893306    

• vegpedlr Said:

Fair enough.

It's not a bad program, but...

I want to lose weight. Do S&S.

I want to get stronger. Do S&S.

I want to train for a half marathon. Do S&S.

I want to learn another language. Do S&S too. Aw!, c'mon...

It kinda gets tiring after a while and generates a bias against the whole thing.

Besides, I find both the DMPM and the DJ HKC book a much better approach to... well, anything.

"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums. It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable. Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow. Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't." Dan Martin

Edited by iPood on 01-29-20 11:48 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

01-29-20 12:15 PM - Post#893308    

• vegpedlr Said:

Here is a list of programs that have more variety, will get you stronger and in better condition and can be done in under 45 minutes. Most, under 30.
1. Rite of Passage
2. Kettlebell Muscle
3. More Kettlebell Muscles 20 programs
4. Mike Mahler's Aggressive Training for Size and Strength.
5. Dave Whitley's 101 and 102 Kettlebell Workouts. Both have 30 programs in under 30 minutes or less.
6. Pat Flynn has some fantastic minimalist workouts in Chronicles of Strength
7. Armor Building
8. Snatches, 5 L, 5 R, top of each minute, 20 minutes

There is a great big world out there of better workouts. Way too much attention has been paid to basically a beginner program.

By putting out a second version of the book, basically they have run out of ideas.

For the record, never having done the program for more than a couple of days, passed the swing and get up test with an 88. I'm 190 lbs, and middle aged, not some mutant.

WTH effect is basically newbie gains. Everything works for 4-6 weeks.

01-29-20 12:37 PM - Post#893309    

I like employing it as a testable standard. 10 getups and 100 swings for time gives you useful feedback. I just found that, as a program, it was a very inefficient way of reaching said standard, and for beginners, far inferior to DMPM and the programs in Dan’s HKC. And, also, there are far, FAR more useful standards if one is willing to use, oh, something other than kettlebells. The ground perhaps. Or a pull-up bar.

I should write a book called “Pushups & Pull-ups: the secret hillbilly method for 6-pack abs and old-man strength”

Program: practice pushups and pull-ups everyday. Never get out of breath. Continue until you can do 100 push-ups and 10 pull-ups in 10 minutes.

Price: $10

Amazon link forthcoming.

01-29-20 12:52 PM - Post#893311    

Don't forget the marketing copy

*Build vice like strength through this simple jungle jim activity
*6 pack abs without the monotony of crunches
*Use this simple standalone body exercise and increase your bench 30 lbs.
*Get so swole that you'll need a new wardrobe.

01-29-20 01:15 PM - Post#893312    

As one who appreciates the work of both DJ and Pavel, and enjoys participating in both forums, it's the animosity towards people and organizations that surprises me.

As for the program itself, I can't say, because I've never done it. Every time I think about doing it, I end up with the DMPM instead. Whenever I think about PttP, I end up with Easy Strength. While appreciate the idea of a two move minimalist approach, it seems to me adding one or two moves would be even better.

If you compare ETK, S&S 1.0, S&S 2.0, and Q&D, you can see gradual refinement of the method. It may be interesting to note that when Joe Rogan questioned Pavel on how he personally trains, his answer was essentially Q&D.

Simple and Sinister Reviews
01-29-20 01:27 PM - Post#893314    

Well, a similar thing was happening with the old PM on the dd forums. ETK was beating up some peoples shoulders. RoTK was way beyond most users ability. And VWC as well.

It's a book and program for beginners. Most people are. The 5 minute swing test with the 32kg bell is a decent level of GPP for most people. And most people are not athletes. They are the dudes you see at work and when you go grocery shopping. <The people who show up at the gym month after month without making any progress.

And the simplicity has a certain charm. And can do wonders if you have never stuck to anything for more than a month.

Yeah, push ups, pull ups, lunges etc would work as well. But they aren't magic either...

Edited by 12bernd on 01-29-20 01:32 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

01-29-20 01:30 PM - Post#893315    

• vegpedlr Said:

It also may be interesting to note that Pavel wrote somewhere that dips are a fine choice (which I agree with)... for Q&D (which I VERY strongly disagree with). Explosive dips are a very baaaaad idea.

I do love quite a few Pavel's programs (RoP is mostly fine, PttP is borderline genius and 5x5x5 is truly wonderful), but the new stuff since Easy Strength... not so much.

The thing that irks me is the cultish feeling and the rampant censorship over the SF forums.

Let me illustrate:

Someone I know from the IGx forums asked, tongue in cheek, for advice as to which brand of dice is best for Q&D in order to randomize properly the workouts.

Not surprisingly, advice was given.

"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums. It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable. Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow. Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't." Dan Martin

01-29-20 02:03 PM - Post#893318    

• iPood Said:

I'm really in need of good recs for dice -- link please?????

LOL.

More seriously, I too am a bit surprised by the animosity. I mean, it's the internet, but still. If you don't like the program, then don't do it. Bam. Sorted.

If you just added the swings on the (new, revised) S&S template to PTTP, you'd really have something. Or at least I would. As with everything, YMMV.

Simple and Sinister Reviews
01-29-20 02:04 PM - Post#893320    

It's not animosity, it's fatigue. It's continuing to perform Dr. Seuss, when you've graduated to Beverly Cleary and then to Mark Twain.

I understand the concept and can appreciate the simplicity of "Do This" and the end goal in mind.

But 99.9% of the people will never make Sinister. The "get stronger" is a stupid phrase. We all have a max out on strength. A lot depends on size and genetics.

If you want to achieve Simple, or do it for 3 months, fantastic. It shows commitment to stick with it and most men can achieve it. Nothing wrong with that at all

But there are diminishing returns. Same as ANY program. ROP is fantastic. Pullups, presses, swings and snatches. BUT....
Most people start getting dinged up doing it with a 32. Too much volume, especially for being under 200 lb.

I don't like the "You have to stick with this." or don't quit until you've passed the ROP. I maxed out my press at 36kg for ladders of 3. Still can't and will never press a 40kg. All time snatch number 160 in 10. Should I continue at age 51 to try and reach it knowing, I'll get hurt, or do something else? Party isn't always right.

Go to the forum sometime. Ask a question about ROTK, I will guarantee in the first 5 answers of the thread, someone will ask, "Have you achieved ROP?"

Or, if you ask a question about a particular program, someone will answer, "What are your goals?" Just answer the question about the program.

Between a version 2.0, Pavel dancing around the question about his age on the podcast, charging almost $600 for a program on breathing, the cultish attitude of the forum, people get turned off.

There are some great people there. I just don't visit often anymore because the topics, S+S, A+A, Q+D and bent presses don't interest me.

Edited by BChase on 01-29-20 02:28 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

Re: Simple and Sinister Reviews
01-29-20 02:10 PM - Post#893322    

I'm really in need of good recs for dice -- link please?????


11th post down the page

http://irongarmx.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=231963& ;p=887348&hilit=dice# p887348

01-29-20 02:19 PM - Post#893323    

I don't tend to post much and mostly follow these conversations for their educational value (listening to those of you who have "been there and done that" and know way more than I do about this subject), but I must admit it's still not clear to me why The Quick and the Dead is such a flawed program. I've played around with its parameters a bit and found it intriguing, but some of the comments have me concerned about going down that road.

Would someone care to explain its faults for someone who's "out of the loop?"

Simple and Sinister Reviews
01-29-20 02:20 PM - Post#893324    

• BrianBinVA Said:

Here you go: https://www.strongfirst.com/community/threads/q-d -progression.14828/page-2#post-253426

"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums. It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable. Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow. Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't." Dan Martin

Edited by iPood on 01-29-20 02:21 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

Re: Simple and Sinister Reviews
01-29-20 02:25 PM - Post#893325    

• iPood Said:

Oh well, you have to be logged in to view that thread apparently, so I guess I'll just use the dice from one of my kids' board games the next time I want to randomize.

Simple and Sinister Reviews
01-29-20 02:27 PM - Post#893326    

• leon79 Said:

I don't think Q&D is flawed, but it's not a program I'm interested in (which is different from disliking it).

I'd rather do its precursor: Strength Aerobics.

Anyway, the science of it is well beyond my limited understanding , but I read this some time ago and found it interesting.

According to people who do the research and work with TdF cyclists, the way to build mitochondria is via Zone 2 cardio training, and it's got to be 3+ hours weekly, preferably more, to do so.

Peter Attia's podcast below, with Inigo San Millan, PhD, is extremely informative and worth the long listen.

https://peterattiamd.com/inigosanmillan/

Where this pokes holes into Pavel's Q&D stuff is here:
You have 3 muscle fiber types
Type 1
Type 2
Type 2b

Type 1 are chock full of mitochondria
Type 2 less so
Type 2b even less so.

Yet Q&D focues on the Type 2b.

Yet 5 or 10 'explosive' push ups isn't hitting your 2bs. Neither is 5-10 explosive swings.

"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums. It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable. Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow. Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't." Dan Martin

Edited by iPood on 01-29-20 02:29 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

01-29-20 02:51 PM - Post#893328    

• vegpedlr Said:

The Fitno Industrial Complex runs on animosity between people and organizations. More ink has been spilled about "why X organization/method suxxorz" than about any information that would benefit anyone.

Nullius in verba

Re: Simple and Sinister Reviews
01-29-20 04:17 PM - Post#893331    

• BChase Said:

This.

It’s just tiring getting the same answer for every question.

01-29-20 04:24 PM - Post#893332    

The part about the dice is funny . . . I suspect the correct answer is some weird Russian dice that always come up high, and get higher the more often you roll them! (mulligan proof)

I saw some discussion on The Uphill Athlete forum about that P. Attia podcast. I'd like to listen, but I really dislike listening to Attia, and the criticism was it wouldn't be so long if it wasn't for all the Attia anecdotes.

01-29-20 06:27 PM - Post#893337    

I'd say it's both fatigue and unsubstantiated claims. Pavel has never been hesitant to promise the moon while making fun of other people's programs and efforts, and to charge a lot of money for doing so. When his stuff turns out to be mostly smoke and mirrors, there's nothing wrong with getting tired of it, or with calling out the B.S.

Re: Simple and Sinister Reviews
01-29-20 07:00 PM - Post#893338    

• iPood Said:

That's very interesting. Thanks for writing that up.

Is the problem, then, that the program is fine but it doesn't really do what it's promising to do?

If so, that kind of explains my confusion, as my untrained eye was struggling to see a marked difference between it and other minimalist programs.

01-29-20 07:13 PM - Post#893340    

During the few weeks when Q&D was half released but hard to get hold of, not only was there some really bad PR work on their forums, there were also people commenting that they had received the book, done a single workout, and they instantly felt amazing and it was the greatest program ever.

...truth is they felt amazing because in around 30 minutes they had only done a handful of pushups and a handful of swings, taken minute after minute of rest, and been fooled into thinking this was all going to increase their mitochondria and turn them into a leopard ...when in fact they had barely even done a warmup let alone a workout.

I did the swings and pushups workout once and never will again. As mentioned in a post above, there are a thousand better ways to use a kettlebell for 20-30 minutes.

The snatch program appealed to me as I had limited time and quite fancied becoming a leopard. However rushing set after set on one side with minimal rest before switching sides and repeating seems entirely pointless and needlessly fatiguing when you could simply do 20 sets of 5 or 10 sets of 10 on the minute or at your own pace.

Log

01-29-20 10:16 PM - Post#893346    

• aussieluke Said:

The Q&D rollout was sufficiently awful to convince me that I should no longer give any of my meager sums of money to SF.

Nullius in verba

01-30-20 01:23 AM - Post#893349    

I never did S&S but on this other topic that came up...

• aussieluke Said:

I bought the Q&D book and did the program 3 times per week for a good 8 to 12 weeks using overspeed eccentic swings and power push ups. I totally bought into the hype and was expecting good things but ended up disappointed by the lack of results. I did some before and after tests with rucking and swimming and saw no improvements. There was also no improved energy and better sleep and whatever other claims were floating about. I don't think the stuff they put out is as good as they like to believe.

01-30-20 01:57 AM - Post#893350    

• McMan Said:

But what about your mitochondria???

Log

01-30-20 02:20 AM - Post#893352    

A wise man once said that people over-adapt every fitness trend in the short term and under-adapt over the long term. I think Pavel is a great example of this. At the beginning of his career, many people thought he was practically curing cancer. Now, many of the same people think he's a conman.

In fact, neither is true. Pavel is doing what he's always done - he uses colourful language, modern marketing techniques and a fanboy forum to sell minimalist programs, which will get ordinary people fitter and stronger with a low risk of hurting themselves. There are, of course, other ways of getting fit and strong. Some of them will be better for your goals, some of them will be worse. Many of them will have a different place on the risk/reward spectrum. YMMV!

Check out my critical-thinking blog at sharpenyouraxe.substack.com

01-30-20 02:25 AM - Post#893353    

• RupertC Said:

This ^^^.

"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums. It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable. Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow. Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't." Dan Martin

01-30-20 02:56 AM - Post#893354    

• aussieluke Said:

It will remain the unknown mystery that I will never think about again!

Simple and Sinister Reviews
01-30-20 09:49 AM - Post#893359    

• McMan Said:

Look at the positive, you did a program and stuck with it for 8-12 weeks. That's more than 85% of what the population is doing. You tried it and that's all that matters. Great work.

The mistake was buying it, he doesn't deserve your $

I refuse to buy his stuff anymore. I bought ETK, and Deadlift Dynamite, both which were fantastic. $10 to buy a pushup/swing/snatch book. No thanks, I'm sweet.


Edited by BChase on 01-30-20 09:49 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.