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Adam Mundorf Getting the hang of it Posts 43 
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10-11-18 12:34 PM - Post#871994
Hello Everybody, So, simple and sinister has been out for about five years now. Can I get some different opinions/experiences of the program? Anyone see it through to the sinister standards? Thank you, Adam |
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Jake Steinmann At home here Posts 313 
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10-11-18 12:47 PM - Post#871995
I’ve tried to run S&S a few times. I’d have to go back to my notes to see exactly how many times. I’m not particularly fond of it. I worked up to the “simple†standard with the swings (never the getups), but after a few weeks, I found the workouts (excuse me, training sessions) to be a bit of a chore. More than a bit, really. I also seemed to always tweak my upper back about eight weeks into the program, give or take. I prefer something like the 40-day/easy strength program. (And no, I never achieved Sinister. Honestly, trying to do 10 get ups with a 48kg bell falls into the category of “why the hell would I want to do that†for me. The risk/reward does not add up at all.)
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12bernd Starting to like posting Posts 176 |
10-11-18 12:49 PM - Post#871996
I tried it when it came out for about 4 months using the 32, 36 and 40kg KB. Never tested myself and because I also did some calisthenics and rode my bike 3 miles to work each day I never attempted to do it (almost) every day like the book suggested. A friend of mine used it for a bit over a year and one of my uncles managed to loose a bunch of weight and to get back in shape after his kids moved out using a program based on S&S. IMO the frequency is too high, especially once you are beyond the "simple" standard. And I don't see why you would want to limit yourself to such a small exercise selection. No idea what to think about the "Sinister" standard. IMO not something worth pursuing. Especially the TGU is not something that I would max out on :) But all in all I like it for what it is and think it's a great resource to get started. |
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RupertC Master trainer Posts 1479 
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10-11-18 12:54 PM - Post#871997
I worked up to the "simple" goal a couple of times, which was fun, sweaty and intense. When I went beyond that, getups with the 40k seemed a little bit wobbly and scary, so I dropped it. I would happily work back up to the "simple" goal again if I felt I needed to, but right now it isn't a program I particularly miss.
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12bernd Starting to like posting Posts 176 |
10-11-18 12:57 PM - Post#871998
I worked up to the "simple" goal a couple of times, which was fun, sweaty and intense. When I went beyond that, getups with the 40k seemed a little bit wobbly and scary, so I dropped it. I would happily work back up to the "simple" goal again if I felt I needed to, but right now it isn't a program I particularly miss. Yeah, I think with a high frequency program like that you should not be afraid to lower the intensity and drop back to lower weights. |
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iPood Grand Pooh-Bah Posts 2360 |
10-11-18 02:24 PM - Post#872006
I’ve used S&S as a deload of sorts between programs. I don’t particularly care about its exercise selection and I get bored too soon. The only truly minimalistic program I use on a regular basis is the old 2 cleans, 1 press, 3 squats on the minute, for a few minutes.
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nickbroken Starting to like posting Posts 123 |
10-11-18 02:43 PM - Post#872008
Did it up until simple, it was ok. I loved the swings every day, body felt great. The TGU with heavy weight I am not a big fan of, honestly, I don't care for TUG anyway. I do think it is a tad overrated as many people will act like it is the end all be all kettlebell workout. |
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Steve Rogers Carpal tunnel from posting! Posts 6158 
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10-11-18 02:54 PM - Post#872009
I've also done S&S for 2 or 3 weeks at a time and then was ready for a different program. I'm trying it again now to see if purported shoulder benefits materialize as mine have been cranky of late. If/when I get bored I'll transition to a template from Dan John's Hardstyle Kettlebell Challenge. Another option might be two week blocks alternating PttP with S&S.
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12bernd Starting to like posting Posts 176 |
10-11-18 03:26 PM - Post#872011
I've also done S&S for 2 or 3 weeks at a time and then was ready for a different program. I'm trying it again now to see if purported shoulder benefits materialize as mine have been cranky of late. If/when I get bored I'll transition to a template from Dan John's Hardstyle Kettlebell Challenge. Another option might be two week blocks alternating PttP with S&S. Most of my clients with shoulder pain didn't do so well with TGUs. Straight arm hangs, side planks and bottom up presses worked better. |
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Jake Steinmann At home here Posts 313
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10-11-18 03:34 PM - Post#872012
I've also done S&S for 2 or 3 weeks at a time and then was ready for a different program. I'm trying it again now to see if purported shoulder benefits materialize as mine have been cranky of late. If/when I get bored I'll transition to a template from Dan John's Hardstyle Kettlebell Challenge. Another option might be two week blocks alternating PttP with S&S. My shoulders are garbage, and S&S didn’t help.
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Conor78 At home here Posts 254 
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10-11-18 03:37 PM - Post#872013
Have used it extensively in the past, got up to 40 kg but no further and as mentioned above the risk reward equation starts to tilt at that point. Over at SF it's held in high esteem. I have come away for 1 arm swings and much prefer 2 handed now. DJ s hairstyle challenge is much better for someone seeking out a minimalist approach. I much prefer the rite of passage compared to S/S as it has pull up and snatch but that's only my opinion... |
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Adam Mundorf Getting the hang of it Posts 43
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10-11-18 04:02 PM - Post#872014
It has a cult like following over there which was why I asked over here. It is kinda strange no other books have been released for so long over there. Thank you all for the responses |
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12bernd Starting to like posting Posts 176 |
10-11-18 04:52 PM - Post#872016
It has a cult like following over there which was why I asked over here. It is kinda strange no other books have been released for so long over there. Thank you all for the responses Well, they are not a publishing company like dragon door and focusing on seminars might be the way to go for them. But as far as I know the courses still come with course material. A friend showed me his Strong Endurance notes an I was surprised by how many different programs they covered. No idea how active their forum community is in sharing the seminar material or what is going on in the facebook groups. |
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Kyle Aaron husband, father, trainer - in that order Posts 1911 
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10-11-18 05:04 PM - Post#872017
It has a cult like following over there which was why I asked over here. Just because they talk about it a lot doesn't mean they actually do it.
It is kinda strange no other books have been released for so long over there. Seminars are more lucrative than books, generally speaking, and don't have the "big spike on release followed by long tail" that books do.
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Steve Rogers Carpal tunnel from posting! Posts 6158
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10-11-18 05:09 PM - Post#872018
I've also done S&S for 2 or 3 weeks at a time and then was ready for a different program. I'm trying it again now to see if purported shoulder benefits materialize as mine have been cranky of late. If/when I get bored I'll transition to a template from Dan John's Hardstyle Kettlebell Challenge. Another option might be two week blocks alternating PttP with S&S. My shoulders are garbage, and S&S didn’t help. Thanks. It seems to be helping mine a bit. Probably depends on exactly what your shoulder issues are. I'll give it a bit more time.
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SinisterAlex At home here Posts 369 |
10-11-18 05:50 PM - Post#872022
I like DanMartinsProgramMinimum alot better, and yes i have achieved S&S. |
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Conor78 At home here Posts 254
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10-11-18 06:06 PM - Post#872023
There's elements of it that I really like but there is a reluctance over at SF to have any critical analysis of it. Hitting the Simple standard isn't a panacea. It's a solid GPP program but there are better programs out there. |
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Steve W. Starting to like posting Posts 181 |
10-11-18 06:07 PM - Post#872024
I've used it a lot and like it, but with a few caveats: --I'm not a get up guy. I just don't enjoy get ups so I don't do them. Therefore, I have only done the swing portion of S&S. --S&S was my introduction to A+A style training, which I think is a brilliant method. However, IMO the book is a little half-baked in explaining and implementing A+A. I learned how to do it "right" mainly from forum posts by people like Al Ciampa, because the book is unfortunately not very clear about how A+A looks in practice, and in many places flat out contradicts the principles that have since emerged. For instance, the book says that you start at sets on the minute and that you naturally will be able to reduce rest periods over time until you hit the standard of a set every 30s. The consensus is now that this is not correct (and if you drink the right flavor Kool Aid, that the book doesn't actually say or mean it, and has been misinterpreted). It might sort of happen like that for a beginner starting with 16kg, but usually not even then, and never when the weights start getting heavier. The current understanding is: --More generous recovery (waiting until breathing and heartrate normalize). This may take a lot longer than sets on the minute. --Going by feel, not the clock or even a heartrate monitor. --Paying attention to day to day recovery, not just set to set, and allowing even more recovery between sets, if necessary. --Testing the 10 sets in 5 minutes (sets on the 30s) standard only occasionally, if at all. --Modifying the program to use shorter sets (and more of them to maintain total volume). --Generally focusing on staying fresh, making reps crisp and powerful, but allowing generous recovery so the overall effort feels easy/lazy. This is the reason for cutting sets to less than 10 reps (10 is on or a little over the border for maintaining maximum power throughout the set and being able to recover fully between sets to maintain maximum power throughout a session). Plus, cutting the set length may allow you to use a heavier bell. Personally, I've found this method of training to be a revelation. It has provided me with great strength and conditioning benefits in a mentally and physically sustainable way. I've moved away from swings for this and toward snatches and double cleans, sticking mostly with sets of 5 and extending sessions out from 20 to over 60 sets. It feels lazy -- you rest a lot and keep the perceived level of effort as low as possible, letting the accumulated time and volume do the work. I also do a lot of mace and clubbell work following the same principles.
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BChase Old hand here on IOL Posts 854 |
10-11-18 06:48 PM - Post#872027
Used it as a finisher for a couple of weeks. Tested with a 40kg, succeeded, had no intention of buying a heavier bell. I find with heavy getups. that if I do them too much my elbows get sore from trying to keep my arms straight. I like 2 handed swings better. Snatches and other exercises are too much fun to stick with these 2. Good to start, highly overrated. |
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aussieluke Carpal tunnel from posting! Posts 5439 
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10-11-18 07:41 PM - Post#872028
I always felt like there was so much blabber in that book. It could have just been an article that said do 10x10 swings and 10 getups every day. The rushing getups to a time limit is ridiculous. Even better it would have said do 3-5x5 goblet squats first, some one-arm presses if you don’t like getups, and some pull-ups after.
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SinisterAlex At home here Posts 369 |
10-11-18 07:47 PM - Post#872030
I always felt like there was so much blabber in that book. It could have just been an article that said do 10x10 swings and 10 getups every day. The rushing getups to a time limit is ridiculous. Even better it would have said do 3-5x5 goblet squats first, some one-arm presses if you don’t like getups, and some pull-ups after. Essentially the DMPM |
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John Mc At home here Posts 237 
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10-11-18 09:11 PM - Post#872033
I did it several years back. I achieved the Swing goal with the 32kg bell and the TGU goal with the 36kg bell. I did not time my TGU's, I just kept moving at a controlled, non momentum, pace. Here are my thoughts: 1) The biggest thing I learned is the 10x10 swing format. At the time, high rep swings bothered my back because my form would break down. 10x10 was perfect for me, and still is, even though my form is better. Like many here, I switched back to 2 handed swings. I think I get more benefit that two handed swings allow (heavier bell and more aggressive swing). 2) I like TGUs with some weight. I hit the 36kg goal (slightly above Simple) pretty quickly. I achieved a few TGUs with the 40kg, but got to the same point many here did. It just didn't feel safe. The 36kg is enough, for me at least. 3) Other than the goblet squat and glute bridge, I switched out the rest of the mobility, warm up, cool down stuff. I needed more mobility work than this program provides. Other things work better for me. 4) Overall, I like the program. For something so minimal, it did give you a decent amount of strength, power and conditioning. That being said, it gets boring and I think you are creating gaps in your fitness. I found three other programs that incorporate S&S, with other activities. These are: 5) Easy Strength's concept of two week blocks of S&S (instead of Program Minimum) and PTTP (Power To The People). 6) This program from Max Shank: https://www.dragondoor.com/swings_and_get-ups_ar e_not_enough/ 7) This variation from Tom Furman is my favorite. In fact, I took this concept one step further and instead of Furman's three bodyweight exercises, I used three from Max Shank's Ultimate Athlete (Front Lever, Airborne Lunge and LSit to Handstand) http://www.tomfurman.com/synergy-when-1-1-3/ John Mc
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Upside Starting to like posting Posts 185 |
10-11-18 09:17 PM - Post#872034
Steve W.- I wanted to comment on your post under the ROTK thread and simply forgot. You make some similar observations on this thread and I think you are spot on. Like you, I find Al Ciampa and Harald Motz to be very consistent in their approach and explanation of A&A training, which varies from the S&S book. I have opted not to ask certain questions on the SF boards in the full knowledge that I would be told to read the book again followed by reading it once again. I recall a time when Pavel squatted his swings and TGU's were get up any way you can. I allow for systems to mature and evolve, but the cult-like S&S following make it necessary to seek other voices. I'm not a fan of full TGU's and prefer half get-ups or the high hips position if you will. They have been good for my shoulders, which took the brunt of 30 years of throwing in various drills to my defensive backfield. Even heavy half get-ups have no appeal to me. Having 48k overhead in single-arm support seems like the juice ain't worth the squeeze. That being said, I alternate S&S (really A&A) into the routine a couple of times or so a year. As a minimalist GPP workout it has given me plenty of bang for the buck. Al Ciampa once said that if you are using heavy weight stick to sets of five and use ten reps with a workable one-hand weight. I sprinkle some one-hand work in, but prefer two-hand swings. I appreciate your bullet point explanation regarding your understanding of the program. I admit to performing swings and snatches in the same workout, which is not following the program as many at the SF forum would be quick to point out. Yet, my strength improvements have accelerated with the alteration. My hat is off to Pavel for the format, but the one size fits all approach wasn't cutting it as well as the A&A. |
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aussieluke Carpal tunnel from posting! Posts 5439
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10-11-18 11:38 PM - Post#872036
I always felt like there was so much blabber in that book. It could have just been an article that said do 10x10 swings and 10 getups every day. The rushing getups to a time limit is ridiculous. Even better it would have said do 3-5x5 goblet squats first, some one-arm presses if you don’t like getups, and some pull-ups after. Essentially the DMPM Pretty much. But mostly I just don't think it needed a whole book (albeit a short one) before getting to the one and only program, which offers no alternatives or options. Just do this. Or don't. ...and by the way if it turns out you don't want to, you just wasted your money.
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Kyle Aaron husband, father, trainer - in that order Posts 1911
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10-12-18 02:44 AM - Post#872040
So the consistent theme is, "I did it, except for the bits I didn't." Which means nobody does it. I'm sensing a theme with the Tsatsouline stuff here...
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RupertC Master trainer Posts 1479
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10-12-18 04:50 AM - Post#872041
So the consistent theme is, "I did it, except for the bits I didn't." Which means nobody does it. I'm sensing a theme with the Tsatsouline stuff here... Nobody? I count five people in the thread who hit the simple goal as written or who overshot it with a slightly heavier bell (me, nickbroken, SinisterAlex, BChase, John Mc). Maybe some of the others did too but didn't mention it. It is true that nobody mentioned hitting the sinister goal.
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rudd777 At home here Posts 304 |
10-12-18 06:47 AM - Post#872043
I did it pretty much as written. According to my logs I did 100 workouts. I achieved Swings 10x10x32 (1H in 5 mins) TGU 5x1x24 (10 minutes) At around 70Kg body weigh. I bought the eBook in December 2013, started properly in January 2014 and finished at the end of July. I then started some more varied KB work. I don't think I could have got Sinister without doing a focused strength training routine to work on my shoulder strength. My review. Book is OK, some good stuff in there, but the meat of the program could be covered in a blog post. I like simple repetitive routines that I can do for months on end so I was fine with the programming. My swings definitely got better. I don't love TGUs and I haven't really done them since. Body comp didn't really change and my conditioning is generally good and this at least maintained it. I don't think it was any better than PM. I prefer 2H swings and I haven't done many !H swings after I finished. I do think there is a higher injury risk while at the same time it is harder to push the conditioning effect. I did like the minimalist approach to stretching. While I don't use the same stretches any more, I take a similar approach. I have 4 core stretches and 3-4 optional and that is all I do. They are based on DJ's routines. My TLDR version. If you like Pavel's writing style you'll like the book. I don't It's a good basic KB routine, but I think PM is a better beginner's routine. I learned I much prefer 2H swings and don't really like TGU I did 100 workouts. So that has to be good :)
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kernlittle At home here Posts 271 |
10-12-18 08:36 AM - Post#872044
I did it and liked it. Achieved simple and started working in a 40kg but didn't complete with 40. I did it when I lived in an apartment and Kettlebells were perfect for the space I had. Now I have a home gym and Kettlebells are kinda meh to me. |
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Jake Steinmann At home here Posts 313
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10-12-18 09:10 AM - Post#872048
It has a cult like following over there which was why I asked over here. I think there's a few reasons for that. 1. Survivorship Bias: the people who have success with S&S are more likely to talk about S&S, particularly in a forum where the program is considered to be a good one. People who don’t have success with it, for whatever reason, aren’t likely to want to talk about it (especially if “lack of success†= “just kinda stopped doing itâ€, which is what a lot of folks on here seem to be saying). 2. Pavel’s writing in general, and the rhetoric around S&S in particular, tends to include a bit of...victim blaming, for lack of a better term. There’s a tendency toward the mindset that the program cannot fail, it can only be failed. If S&S doesn’t work for you? YOU did something wrong. Got hurt? It’s YOUR fault. Not making gains? YOU didn’t read the program correctly. Shoulders don’t feel better? YOU aren’t doing something right. Still have cancer? YOU need to swing a heavier bell (I’m being hyperbolic here, in case that’s unclear). Any suggestion that maybe the program has flaws is dismissed as a lack of understanding on the part of the person doing the program. Having been a coach, I get that. I used to deal with students doing stupid things all the time, and then complaining that what I showed them wasn’t working. But at some point, a good coach needs to accept the idea that maybe what they’re sharing is flawed, or that they could do better. I don’t see a lot of that in SF forums. 2b. This is exacerbated by the fact that, at this point, “S&S†has become a nearly meaningless term. People seem to be more obsessed with achieving the goals than with following the program, so they put together these insane programs where they’re supersetting deadlifts and bent presses one day, doing one-arm pushups and weighted chinups another, a snatch test every second thursday, twenty-rep back squats followed by landmine presses, and then talking about the benefits of the S&S program. I don’t think S&S is a bad program per se, but it the amount of hype it gets is, in my opinion, undeserved.
So the consistent theme is, "I did it, except for the bits I didn't." Which means nobody does it. I'm sensing a theme with the Tsatsouline stuff here... Nobody? I count five people in the thread who hit the simple goal as written or who overshot it with a slightly heavier bell (me, nickbroken, SinisterAlex, BChase, John Mc). Maybe some of the others did too but didn't mention it. It is true that nobody mentioned hitting the sinister goal. Yeah, I think that's a little unfair. I did the program, several times. I hit simple on the swings (but not the get ups), but I did the program. And there are videos of people successfully completing chunks of the program over on the SF site. People do seem to use the program and enjoy it, it's just not for everyone.
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Jake Steinmann At home here Posts 313
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10-12-18 09:14 AM - Post#872050
I always felt like there was so much blabber in that book. It could have just been an article that said do 10x10 swings and 10 getups every day. The rushing getups to a time limit is ridiculous. Even better it would have said do 3-5x5 goblet squats first, some one-arm presses if you don’t like getups, and some pull-ups after. Funny--when I did my SFG back in...whenever...early 2013? It was the 2nd SFG, and S&S wasn't out yet. But Pavel during the programming lecture talked about a new version of the program minimum he was working on that was just that. 10x10 swings, getups...the whole thing took about five minutes to explain. I think I have my notes somewhere. But yeah, the program isn't super complicated. The explanations in the S&S book were pretty good, however, at least from what I remember. I haven't cracked it in a while.
Thanks. It seems to be helping mine a bit. Probably depends on exactly what your shoulder issues are. I'll give it a bit more time. Cool. I hope it helps you!
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aussieluke Carpal tunnel from posting! Posts 5439
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10-12-18 09:42 AM - Post#872051
I always felt like there was so much blabber in that book. It could have just been an article that said do 10x10 swings and 10 getups every day. The rushing getups to a time limit is ridiculous. Even better it would have said do 3-5x5 goblet squats first, some one-arm presses if you don’t like getups, and some pull-ups after. Funny--when I did my SFG back in...whenever...early 2013? It was the 2nd SFG, and S&S wasn't out yet. But Pavel during the programming lecture talked about a new version of the program minimum he was working on that was just that. 10x10 swings, getups...the whole thing took about five minutes to explain. I think I have my notes somewhere. But yeah, the program isn't super complicated. The explanations in the S&S book were pretty good, however, at least from what I remember. I haven't cracked it in a while.
Thanks. It seems to be helping mine a bit. Probably depends on exactly what your shoulder issues are. I'll give it a bit more time. Cool. I hope it helps you! I remember before the book came out there was a LOT of hype about what it would be. There had been a lot of discussion about how to improve the ETK programme minimum, and the answer was usually goblet squats and pushups. Then there was much speculation about what the new book would be and that it would be the ‘new PM’. Well as I said above I was quite underwhelmed. It could have been explained in a blog post. Or you could easily wait a few weeks after the book was out and the questions started coming to see the programme written out over a thousand forum posts. I think from having followed Dan’s writings for years, I’d already seen better, without the BS and nonsense: for example from the Lifetime Warrior Workout PDF... Program Minimum Minimum (From Dan Martin) Goblet Squats (10-25) Swings 50-150 Push Ups 25-50 (or Presses) Some kind of Loaded Carry Change the reps each and every day, but do the movements. Coming back the next day is more important than any single training day. ...a bit of choice, a bit of leeway and nothing set in stone. And no ridiculous time goals!
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Silverback61 Grand Pooh-Bah Posts 1834 
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10-12-18 10:14 AM - Post#872054
I have the book, but never actually followed it. I like variety too much. I also only like doing partial get-ups. (the first part on the movement)
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BrianBinVA Carpal tunnel from posting! Posts 5140 
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10-12-18 10:20 AM - Post#872056
Few thoughts: 1) I've read the book a few times 2) I've not done the program 3) I liked the descriptions of the swing and the getup. To me, those were worth the (thankfully low) price of the book. I thought so even though I don't like getups and don't do them -- see above re not doing the program. 4) I liked the PM MUCH BETTER when it was one page of ETK and was the snatch and the bent press 5) Someone needs to write a version of S&S for two-hand swings and waiter walks. Or something else that's not a getup. |
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Jake Steinmann At home here Posts 313
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10-12-18 01:08 PM - Post#872063
And no ridiculous time goals! The time goals are definitely the worst part of that book, and I think contribute heavily to some of the insanity that surrounds it. If it was just the program, people would probably do it, not do it, play with it, etc… But with the time goals, there’s suddenly this challenge element. Are you Simple? Are you Sinister? Can you get there? How fast? What’s the best program to get to Sinister? Chasing the goals suddenly becomes more important than just doing the program.
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BChase Old hand here on IOL Posts 854 |
 10-13-18 08:00 AM - Post#872079
So the consistent theme is, "I did it, except for the bits I didn't." Which means nobody does it. I'm sensing a theme with the Tsatsouline stuff here... Props for using his last name instead of Pavel. A solid, pithy hot take I can honestly say, I've never bought the book. Though the pictures make me laugh with the outfits. Did the workout a few times on off days, did the 100 swings straight and was good. I don't think the test is good. It's a recipe for injury with a heavy weight. Like ETK, which, I love and did for 6 months and followed to the letter of the law, because if I didn't i would get sent to Siberia to the gulag, the heavier you go, the more likely you are to get injured. There is a limit in all of us on how strong we can get. The likelihood of a 155 lb. guy to do 100 swings with a 48 and 10 getups is small. Same with a 49 year old man (me) to snatch a 24, 200 times in 10 minutes or one arm press 1/2 his bodyweight. (a 44 ain't ever going up, and neither is the 40. though I can push press it) I think with Tsatsouline's programs, run them for 3-6 month, and the view the goals as BHAG Big Hairy Audacious Goals as they were described in Good to Great |
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bigstve12 Starting to like posting Posts 115 |
10-13-18 10:01 AM - Post#872082
I do it, but not by the book. Twice a week I do it and my other training days are the things I want to do. I set the goal of achieving the standards with 40kg. I am very close to that. I should complete it before the year ends. I have no desire to pursue sinister. I can 1H swing the 48 and do get ups with the 48, but I think once I complete my goal it will be time to move on to somehting else. |
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North Getting the hang of it Posts 34 |
10-13-18 11:15 PM - Post#872096
I didn’t expect my first post on this site to be about S&S, but here goes. I have achieved simple standards. I think it is a good GPP program. I was formerly in shape and then kids. I started working S&S and feel like I’ve gotten back some strength and some fitness. The “WTH†effect is probably oversold, but after achieving simple this year I can do more pull ups and overhead press more weight than I have in 5 years. It’s not going to turn you into the best athlete at everything and it is stripped to the bare essentials, but it’s good for what it intends: it is a minimalist program. I had thought to post about my experience with Dan Johns “the first twenty days†from his HKC book. I enjoyed that. My pressing is better and I liked the challenge of 30 seconds 2HS: 30 seconds rest for twenty minutes (tho I admit I had to rest an extra 30 seconds twice when my form was faltering). I will probably run it agai. With different weights after going back to S&S for a bit while I play with these rings I just installed in my garage. |
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Dan John Carpal tunnel from posting! Posts 12292 
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10-14-18 04:37 AM - Post#872101
I would love to see more discussion on the "20 Days after" discussion. I might have done that twice; the upside is that it is 20 practice sessions with a few harder things and, I hope, nothing crazy.
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Arthax Starting to like posting Posts 173 
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10-15-18 04:45 AM - Post#872120
Hello Everybody, So, simple and sinister has been out for about five years now. Can I get some different opinions/experiences of the program? Anyone see it through to the sinister standards? Thank you, Adam I reached Simple in 15 weeks doing S&S 3-4 (closer to 3) times/per week. Did benchmark tests after I reached Simple. - Noticed higher degree of flexibility in my hamstrings and more open hips. - I definitely got stronger in swings and get-ups. - lost strength in 1RM bench press 115kg -> 90kg. Some claims that S&S maintain or even makes you stronger in some movements. Not true in my case. - ran alot before S&S (half marathons, mud races). Did a 45min run. Could not keep up with my regular pace. Some people claim that S&S can be used as training for distance running with good success. Not true in my case. - lost strength in pull-ups. 3x10 w/ 10kg strapped -> 3x8 at bodyweight. I experienced S&S more of a loaded yoga session. It did not make me stronger, only more proficient in the two exercises and increased my mobility. I should say that I have done close to no mobility earlier in my training life, so if was probably a case of doing something rather than nothing. I concur with others about the dogmatic view of S&S at the SF forum. In my case I'm put on heavy moderation (probably the fourth time) which means all my posts must be scrutinized by a moderator (and edited) before posted. The reason is mostly because I'm posting links "competitors as they call it. Most recently an article by Dan. While my intent is to help someone who is asking for advice, they take it as advertising for competitors. They are probably good people, but I much prefer a community which is geared towards tasing the common knowledge about training to evolve the everyone, regardless of what cult you follow. But I guess you can't make money that way. |
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Pepper At home here Posts 296 |
10-15-18 06:39 AM - Post#872122
In my case I'm put on heavy moderation (probably the fourth time) which means all my posts must be scrutinized by a moderator (and edited) before posted. The reason is mostly because I'm posting links "competitors as they call it. Most recently an article by Dan. That is such playground childishness. These are grown people. I don't understand it. |
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kernlittle At home here Posts 271 |
10-15-18 08:10 AM - Post#872123
I concur with others about the dogmatic view of S&S at the SF forum. In my case I'm put on heavy moderation (probably the fourth time) which means all my posts must be scrutinized by a moderator (and edited) before posted. The reason is mostly because I'm posting links "competitors as they call it. Most recently an article by Dan. While my intent is to help someone who is asking for advice, they take it as advertising for competitors. They are probably good people, but I much prefer a community which is geared towards tasing the common knowledge about training to evolve the everyone, regardless of what cult you follow. But I guess you can't make money that way. The main reason I let my certification expire. Nice too see people speaking out. Dissent is not the least bit allowed over there. Pretty sure they have the words "Dragon Door" censored by the forum software. |
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Dan John Carpal tunnel from posting! Posts 12292
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10-15-18 08:29 AM - Post#872124
Channeling my "Inner Dan Martin:" Dissent is good (and needed...read up on Abe Lincoln) Being an asshole is not. I have to say that balancing this seems to be very difficult for some.
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Jason J Getting the hang of it Posts 33 |
10-15-18 09:21 AM - Post#872127
I met the simple in Feb 2017 with a 36 kg bell after about 1 month of practice while also doing some deadlifts and pull ups. I did work towards heavier TGUs (up to 120#) primarily with a barbell because I don't have a heavier bell. I continue to work with heavier TGUs and built a dumbbell that I can load to 105# and over so I can work on it at home. I think 48kg TGUs and swings in the S&S time period are possible, I just struggle to find time where I can continuously work on it to get there. TGUs and loaded carries were game changers for me, they allow me to keep up with my heavier longbow with very little practice and generally handle most things life throws at me. |
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Steve W. Starting to like posting Posts 181 |
10-15-18 09:23 AM - Post#872128
Channeling my "Inner Dan Martin:" Dissent is good (and needed...read up on Abe Lincoln) Being an asshole is not. I have to say that balancing this seems to be very difficult for some. I participate regularly on the StrongFirst forum. I mostly enjoy it and I've learned a lot from some of the people there (hopefully I've helped a few people too). One reason I'm not tempted to recertify there (I was a certified RKC when Pavel was with Dragon Door) is that I like being a free agent, and I often post opinions questioning or contrary to SF orthodoxy. But I do recognize that it's their house and try to draw a line in the tone and content of what I say there. For instance, I steer clear of criticizing the FMS, even though I think it's snake oil, because saying so would be pointlessly picking a fight and therefore bad manners. I do think it's kind of silly to filter "Dragon Door" (FYI, DragonDoor with no space gets by the filter).
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vegpedlr Old hand here on IOL Posts 1179 
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10-15-18 09:37 AM - Post#872129
I enjoy the SF forum a lot. There are a lot of interesting people and posts over there. I am bummed by how overprotective of their brand they are. I would be in more trouble if I didn’t usually browse on my iPad mini which makes posting links a PITA. While an active filter against Dragon Door is kinda silly, I get it since Pavel was so intimately connected to both organizations it confuse people like it confused me at first. But to extend that to DJ seems excessive. Unless you’re Pavel Macek, then you can post a link to OTP, Gray Cook and DJ covering the Cook drill. |
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BChase Old hand here on IOL Posts 854 |
10-15-18 12:40 PM - Post#872132
I regularly participate in the SF forum . BrianCF, you can find me there. I visit because I love using kettlebells. The stuff that interests me, I click on. The stuff that doesn't, A + A, Cleans, FMS, Hardstyle vs. GS (God what a tired debate) stupid topics, I don't. I used to love DD, but it's a graveyard. Great organization, unfortunately, went all in on Coach Wade and it died. The last great argument there was when Logan Christopher did 300 snatches in 10 minutes. Yes, the form was not great on a lot of them. Instead of complimenting the guy for having the conditional capacity to do it, the form, (not forum HAHA) police, in which 50% probably couldn't do 1/2 that in the same amount of time were highly critical. |
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Adam Mundorf Getting the hang of it Posts 43
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10-15-18 01:15 PM - Post#872135
I used to love DD, but it's a graveyard. Great organization, unfortunately, went all in on Coach Wade and it died. This site seems like a good cross section of everything. Non dogmatic too, which is great. |
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DanMartin Shomer Shabbos Posts 20705 
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10-15-18 01:28 PM - Post#872136
Channeling my "Inner Dan Martin:" Dissent is good (and needed...read up on Abe Lincoln) Being an asshole is not. I have to say that balancing this seems to be very difficult for some. Tell me about it. My situational Tourette's has caused me much grief.
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Seward Starting to like posting Posts 195 |
10-15-18 05:39 PM - Post#872144
I've tried it a few times, from a few weeks to a few months. The volume of one arm swings don't seem to agree well with my shoulders. |
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Arthax Starting to like posting Posts 173
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10-16-18 03:29 AM - Post#872166
I used to love DD, but it's a graveyard. Great organization, unfortunately, went all in on Coach Wade and it died. This site seems like a good cross section of everything. Non dogmatic too, which is great. Thats what I like about this forum too. It feels like a bunch of people with the same interest sit by a bonfire and talk about training and life matters. No dogmatic, but rather a pragmatic discussion in a friendly tone. |
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Arthax Starting to like posting Posts 173
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10-16-18 04:08 AM - Post#872168
Out of curiosity why would anyone do S&S over DMPM? Can it have something to do with the "testing" aspect mentioned earlier? |
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iPood Grand Pooh-Bah Posts 2360 |
10-16-18 04:58 AM - Post#872171
Out of curiosity why would anyone do S&S over DMPM? That could be easily corrected, provided the-other-Dan would finally write an e-book (I've been nagging him about this for a long time).
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Steve Rogers Carpal tunnel from posting! Posts 6158
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10-16-18 08:19 AM - Post#872179
One might choose S&S over DMPM because it's more focused and the test goals are part of that. It's also a good experiment in minimalism.
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DanMartin Shomer Shabbos Posts 20705
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10-16-18 09:29 AM - Post#872186
Out of curiosity why would anyone do S&S over DMPM? That could be easily corrected, provided the-other-Dan would finally write an e-book (I've been nagging him about this for a long time). Ha! No reason for an e-book since the Lifetime Warrior Workout is already available as a PDF..
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vegpedlr Old hand here on IOL Posts 1179
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10-16-18 09:54 AM - Post#872188
Out of curiosity why would anyone do S&S over DMPM? Can it have something to do with the "testing" aspect mentioned earlier? I was intrigued by Pavel’s three minimalist programs consisting two exercises, one BB, another KB, and a BW program. It really got me thinking about how much is really needed and effective, and how much is extraneous. I’ve never run one because it seems that just two exercises isn’t quite enough to hit the basic human movements. Though DL and a press is pretty close. As for S&S, I want to run it, but the TGU holds me back. And whenever I think about it, it just seems like the DMPM is better and more complete. I will run it during a summer race season as maintenance and for fun either alone, or in combination with the DMPM. I think the testing to achieve a standard is part of its appeal. I also think the weights are a little high. I think 24 for Simple nd 32 for Sinister better represents a basic GPP standard. |
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Steve Rogers Carpal tunnel from posting! Posts 6158
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10-16-18 01:39 PM - Post#872206
... I also think the weights are a little high. I think 24 for Simple nd 32 for Sinister better represents a basic GPP standard. Concur that the S&S goals are over ambitious and your suggestion more reasonable. I've been using a 6kg for TGUs and 24 for swings because I suck at TGUs. I can see myself getting to 24kg TGU and 32kg one arm swings (the female standard) but not much past that.
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Heck Settling in pretty good Posts 62 |
10-16-18 03:16 PM - Post#872210
I ran this program for nearly a year, and the "testing" aspect kept me going far longer than I should have stuck with it. Heavy 1H swings aren't for everyone. Pretty sure it turned me off to them forever. |
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NJRick Getting the hang of it Posts 47 |
01-27-20 05:34 PM - Post#893240
Stumbled across this old thread and found it very interesting. S&S is pretty much all I've done for years aside from a few rounds of enter the kettlebell, I even made it to the 48kg! This thread got me thinking about really heavy swings and get ups. The heavy swings won't be as powerful as the moderate ones and the heavy gets ups could be a perfect example of the risk reward spectrum. I see these as two potential criticisms. I did however love the program, got stronger and always felt fresh. Would I have gotten even stronger on some other program? I'm not sure... |
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iPood Grand Pooh-Bah Posts 2360 |
01-28-20 12:54 AM - Post#893254
Would I have gotten even stronger on some other program? I'm not sure... Oh, but I am. S&S is, in my opinion, a nice introduction to exercise for the sedentary, or something to do between programs as a decompression of sorts and it even works as a finisher. So it's not without value, but as a standalone program... never liked it. Had you spent the same amount of time following PttP, now you would be way, way, waaaaaaaaay stronger (which may not be your goal, and that's perfectly fine). The best program is the one you keep doing. If S&S does that for you, kudos to you!
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Conor78 At home here Posts 254
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01-28-20 07:31 AM - Post#893261
I’ve always liked this program. Very simple minimalist that you can plug in when life is busy. The 2.0 book is excellent and introduces the talk test as a means of regulating rest. As GPP it’s solid. I like the 1H swing and the get up is a great exercise Dan kettlebell book also has lots of kettlebells programs that can be stripped back to suit a minimalist approach. Each man to himself as they say |
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12bernd Starting to like posting Posts 176 |
01-28-20 08:40 AM - Post#893264
Oh boy, I am actually thinking about giving this program another go to see if I could meet the 48kg goal in 2020. Anyone want to talk me out of it? :D My gym is closed for renovations and to be honest the only thing I miss is the concept 2 rower. |
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NJRick Getting the hang of it Posts 47 |
01-28-20 08:43 AM - Post#893265
Would I have gotten even stronger on some other program? I'm not sure... Oh, but I am. S&S is, in my opinion, a nice introduction to exercise for the sedentary, or something to do between programs as a decompression of sorts and it even works as a finisher. So it's not without value, but as a standalone program... never liked it. Had you spent the same amount of time following PttP, now you would be way, way, waaaaaaaaay stronger (which may not be your goal, and that's perfectly fine). The best program is the one you keep doing. If S&S does that for you, kudos to you! Good point, a deadlift program would have definitely been more likely to build strength. However, I'd argue that if S&S is a finisher than the focus is no longer on quality and strength. I also agree 100 percent that the best program is the one that you follow! That's why this DJ article inspired my training for the past few years, my priority was consistency and sustainability. https://www.strongfirst.com/things-are-going-so-w ell-help-me-screw-it-up-p art-2/ |
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Dan John Carpal tunnel from posting! Posts 12292
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01-28-20 08:45 AM - Post#893266
I'm still waiting to be paid for that article.
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Neil W. Getting the hang of it Posts 41 |
01-28-20 08:50 AM - Post#893267
Since this thread has resurfaced, let me throw this out... I see a lot of talk about the risk/reward of full TGUs, and I think there is wisdom there. I have made a couple of modifications to the TGU and I think it is a lifetime exercise for me now. First, I use a lighter kettlebell (for me this means ~1/2 what I would press with) and hold it bottom's up. It becomes great for the grip, shoulder stabilizers, obliques and overall balance and if something goes wrong the worst thing that happens is the KB flops down on your forearm. Second, at the top I stand on one leg (the side holding the weight) and hold it like a plank for 20 seconds or so before descending. This is again great for balance but moreover it really "screws me together"... the whole chain from my grip to the soles of my feet tightens into one piece. (I also hold the glute bridge like a plank on the way down, but I think that is more standard.) |
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Jordan D Old hand here on IOL Posts 771 
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01-28-20 09:00 AM - Post#893268
Naked getups. Learning to do a handstand. Learning to tumble/fall out of a handstand. Worthier pursuits, IMO. |
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iPood Grand Pooh-Bah Posts 2360 |
01-28-20 09:36 AM - Post#893271
Naked getups. Learning to do a handstand. Learning to tumble/fall out of a handstand. Worthier pursuits, IMO. These days I tend to do a few minutes of DJ's get-back-ups in as many different ways I can think of. One of them is always naked TGUs.
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vegpedlr Old hand here on IOL Posts 1179
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01-28-20 11:22 AM - Post#893276
Pavel's two exercise routines seem a bit restrictive to me. But it's a nice minimalist counterpoint to "maximalist" bodybuilding type stuff. I guess I'm a medium-ist. |
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BChase Old hand here on IOL Posts 854 |
01-29-20 06:42 AM - Post#893295
Why is this program still talked about after 7 long years? The program minimum was a break in program for Enter The Kettlebell, do it until you're ready. As correctly stated above, as a finisher or if you only have 15 minutes, great, but if I were younger, I would have hated wasting time on this to get strong when you could have deadlifted, squatted, done double kettlebells instead. There is no WTH effect. I like getups and see their value, but they are not a magic pill. There is no need to do heavy 1 hand swings. I'd rather do moderately heavy swings with snap then not getting a heavy bell to even my waist. Or do two hand or snatches any day of the week. In my opinion this book was the catalyst that ruined any type of variety in the kettlebell community. And what's funny is people cling to it, because they don't have any creativity to make up their own programs. Dan, don't hold your breath about getting paid. |
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Jordan D Old hand here on IOL Posts 771
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01-29-20 08:44 AM - Post#893298
There is no WTH effect. Sure there is. It’s best described as “average sedentary mopes becoming fitter and healthier through exercise while someone with a suspicious accent waves their hands and talks about magic.” Now, I love the contributions they’ve made over there. Lots of good books to read. But if strength is the glass that contains all other qualities, then S&S was like filling it up one quickly evaporating teardrop at a time. |
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vegpedlr Old hand here on IOL Posts 1179
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01-29-20 10:54 AM - Post#893301
I'm a little surprised at the animosity. |
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NJRick Getting the hang of it Posts 47 |
01-29-20 11:14 AM - Post#893302
I'm a little surprised at the animosity. I agree. It is fair to criticize the program's flaws and to say it is overrated, but I didn't expect this much criticism, especially because in the past it was a DJ recommendation. However, part of the reason I really like this forum is because I get more diverse opinions. 
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aussieluke Carpal tunnel from posting! Posts 5439
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01-29-20 11:21 AM - Post#893303
The fact that they released a second edition of the book with new information such as how to transition from one bell to a heavier bell, and how to take more rest between sets, and that people who already own the first edition are then also buying the second edition for these tiny scraps of additional “knowledge” IMO tells you everything you need to know about how far things have fallen in the kettlebell training world. Sadly I stupidly also (it caught me at a weak moment) bought the newer Q&D book, which is even more ridiculous. But I can say for sure that will be the last SF/Pavel book or product I ever purchase.
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Steve Rogers Carpal tunnel from posting! Posts 6158
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01-29-20 11:31 AM - Post#893305
... There is no WTH effect. I like getups and see their value, but they are not a magic pill. There is no need to do heavy 1 hand swings. I'd rather do moderately heavy swings with snap then not getting a heavy bell to even my waist. Or do two hand or snatches any day of the week. ... WTH effect is one of those YMMV things. Some find something significant and others nothing. A new thing that fills a hole you in your training may produce a significant improvement. S&S didn't do much for me but I'm enjoying high volume snatches with a heavy (for me) weight. It's making me feel "well knit". There's a Zen simplicity to it and can I do other things on alternate days for variety.
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iPood Grand Pooh-Bah Posts 2360 |
01-29-20 11:44 AM - Post#893306
I'm a little surprised at the animosity. Fair enough. It's not a bad program, but... I want to lose weight. Do S&S. I want to get stronger. Do S&S. I want to train for a half marathon. Do S&S. I want to learn another language. Do S&S too. Aw!, c'mon... It kinda gets tiring after a while and generates a bias against the whole thing. Besides, I find both the DMPM and the DJ HKC book a much better approach to... well, anything.
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BChase Old hand here on IOL Posts 854 |
01-29-20 12:15 PM - Post#893308
I'm a little surprised at the animosity. Here is a list of programs that have more variety, will get you stronger and in better condition and can be done in under 45 minutes. Most, under 30. 1. Rite of Passage 2. Kettlebell Muscle 3. More Kettlebell Muscles 20 programs 4. Mike Mahler's Aggressive Training for Size and Strength. 5. Dave Whitley's 101 and 102 Kettlebell Workouts. Both have 30 programs in under 30 minutes or less. 6. Pat Flynn has some fantastic minimalist workouts in Chronicles of Strength 7. Armor Building 8. Snatches, 5 L, 5 R, top of each minute, 20 minutes There is a great big world out there of better workouts. Way too much attention has been paid to basically a beginner program. By putting out a second version of the book, basically they have run out of ideas. For the record, never having done the program for more than a couple of days, passed the swing and get up test with an 88. I'm 190 lbs, and middle aged, not some mutant. WTH effect is basically newbie gains. Everything works for 4-6 weeks. |
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Jordan D Old hand here on IOL Posts 771
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01-29-20 12:37 PM - Post#893309
I like employing it as a testable standard. 10 getups and 100 swings for time gives you useful feedback. I just found that, as a program, it was a very inefficient way of reaching said standard, and for beginners, far inferior to DMPM and the programs in Dan’s HKC. And, also, there are far, FAR more useful standards if one is willing to use, oh, something other than kettlebells. The ground perhaps. Or a pull-up bar. I should write a book called “Pushups & Pull-ups: the secret hillbilly method for 6-pack abs and old-man strength” Program: practice pushups and pull-ups everyday. Never get out of breath. Continue until you can do 100 push-ups and 10 pull-ups in 10 minutes. Price: $10 Amazon link forthcoming. |
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BChase Old hand here on IOL Posts 854 |
01-29-20 12:52 PM - Post#893311
Don't forget the marketing copy *Build vice like strength through this simple jungle jim activity *6 pack abs without the monotony of crunches *Use this simple standalone body exercise and increase your bench 30 lbs. *Get so swole that you'll need a new wardrobe. |
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vegpedlr Old hand here on IOL Posts 1179
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01-29-20 01:15 PM - Post#893312
As one who appreciates the work of both DJ and Pavel, and enjoys participating in both forums, it's the animosity towards people and organizations that surprises me. As for the program itself, I can't say, because I've never done it. Every time I think about doing it, I end up with the DMPM instead. Whenever I think about PttP, I end up with Easy Strength. While appreciate the idea of a two move minimalist approach, it seems to me adding one or two moves would be even better. If you compare ETK, S&S 1.0, S&S 2.0, and Q&D, you can see gradual refinement of the method. It may be interesting to note that when Joe Rogan questioned Pavel on how he personally trains, his answer was essentially Q&D. |
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12bernd Starting to like posting Posts 176 |
01-29-20 01:27 PM - Post#893314
Well, a similar thing was happening with the old PM on the dd forums. ETK was beating up some peoples shoulders. RoTK was way beyond most users ability. And VWC as well. It's a book and program for beginners. Most people are. The 5 minute swing test with the 32kg bell is a decent level of GPP for most people. And most people are not athletes. They are the dudes you see at work and when you go grocery shopping. <The people who show up at the gym month after month without making any progress. And the simplicity has a certain charm. And can do wonders if you have never stuck to anything for more than a month. Yeah, push ups, pull ups, lunges etc would work as well. But they aren't magic either... |
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iPood Grand Pooh-Bah Posts 2360 |
01-29-20 01:30 PM - Post#893315
It may be interesting to note that when Joe Rogan questioned Pavel on how he personally trains, his answer was essentially Q&D. It also may be interesting to note that Pavel wrote somewhere that dips are a fine choice (which I agree with)... for Q&D (which I VERY strongly disagree with). Explosive dips are a very baaaaad idea. I do love quite a few Pavel's programs (RoP is mostly fine, PttP is borderline genius and 5x5x5 is truly wonderful), but the new stuff since Easy Strength... not so much. The thing that irks me is the cultish feeling and the rampant censorship over the SF forums. Let me illustrate: Someone I know from the IGx forums asked, tongue in cheek, for advice as to which brand of dice is best for Q&D in order to randomize properly the workouts. Not surprisingly, advice was given.
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BrianBinVA Carpal tunnel from posting! Posts 5140
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01-29-20 02:03 PM - Post#893318
Let me illustrate: Someone I know from the IGx forums asked, tongue in cheek, for advice as to which brand of dice is best for Q&D in order to randomize properly the workouts. Not surprisingly, advice was given. I'm really in need of good recs for dice -- link please????? LOL. More seriously, I too am a bit surprised by the animosity. I mean, it's the internet, but still. If you don't like the program, then don't do it. Bam. Sorted. If you just added the swings on the (new, revised) S&S template to PTTP, you'd really have something. Or at least I would. As with everything, YMMV. |
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BChase Old hand here on IOL Posts 854 |
01-29-20 02:04 PM - Post#893320
It's not animosity, it's fatigue. It's continuing to perform Dr. Seuss, when you've graduated to Beverly Cleary and then to Mark Twain. I understand the concept and can appreciate the simplicity of "Do This" and the end goal in mind. But 99.9% of the people will never make Sinister. The "get stronger" is a stupid phrase. We all have a max out on strength. A lot depends on size and genetics. If you want to achieve Simple, or do it for 3 months, fantastic. It shows commitment to stick with it and most men can achieve it. Nothing wrong with that at all But there are diminishing returns. Same as ANY program. ROP is fantastic. Pullups, presses, swings and snatches. BUT.... Most people start getting dinged up doing it with a 32. Too much volume, especially for being under 200 lb. I don't like the "You have to stick with this." or don't quit until you've passed the ROP. I maxed out my press at 36kg for ladders of 3. Still can't and will never press a 40kg. All time snatch number 160 in 10. Should I continue at age 51 to try and reach it knowing, I'll get hurt, or do something else? Party isn't always right. Go to the forum sometime. Ask a question about ROTK, I will guarantee in the first 5 answers of the thread, someone will ask, "Have you achieved ROP?" Or, if you ask a question about a particular program, someone will answer, "What are your goals?" Just answer the question about the program. Between a version 2.0, Pavel dancing around the question about his age on the podcast, charging almost $600 for a program on breathing, the cultish attitude of the forum, people get turned off. There are some great people there. I just don't visit often anymore because the topics, S+S, A+A, Q+D and bent presses don't interest me. |
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BChase Old hand here on IOL Posts 854 |
01-29-20 02:10 PM - Post#893322
I'm really in need of good recs for dice -- link please????? 11th post down the page http://irongarmx.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=231963& ;p=887348&hilit=dice# p887348 |
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leon79 Settling in pretty good Posts 53 |
01-29-20 02:19 PM - Post#893323
I don't tend to post much and mostly follow these conversations for their educational value (listening to those of you who have "been there and done that" and know way more than I do about this subject), but I must admit it's still not clear to me why The Quick and the Dead is such a flawed program. I've played around with its parameters a bit and found it intriguing, but some of the comments have me concerned about going down that road. Would someone care to explain its faults for someone who's "out of the loop?" |
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iPood Grand Pooh-Bah Posts 2360 |
01-29-20 02:20 PM - Post#893324
I'm really in need of good recs for dice -- link please????? LOL. Here you go: https://www.strongfirst.com/community/threads/q-d -progression.14828/page-2#post-253426
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BrianBinVA Carpal tunnel from posting! Posts 5140
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01-29-20 02:25 PM - Post#893325
I'm really in need of good recs for dice -- link please????? LOL. Here you go: https://www.strongfirst.com/community/threads/q-d -progression.14828/page-2#post-253426 Oh well, you have to be logged in to view that thread apparently, so I guess I'll just use the dice from one of my kids' board games the next time I want to randomize. |
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iPood Grand Pooh-Bah Posts 2360 |
01-29-20 02:27 PM - Post#893326
I don't tend to post much and mostly follow these conversations for their educational value (listening to those of you who have "been there and done that" and know way more than I do about this subject), but I must admit it's still not clear to me why The Quick and the Dead is such a flawed program. I've played around with its parameters a bit and found it intriguing, but some of the comments have me concerned about going down that road. Would someone care to explain its faults for someone who's "out of the loop?" I don't think Q&D is flawed, but it's not a program I'm interested in (which is different from disliking it). I'd rather do its precursor: Strength Aerobics. Anyway, the science of it is well beyond my limited understanding , but I read this some time ago and found it interesting. According to people who do the research and work with TdF cyclists, the way to build mitochondria is via Zone 2 cardio training, and it's got to be 3+ hours weekly, preferably more, to do so. Peter Attia's podcast below, with Inigo San Millan, PhD, is extremely informative and worth the long listen. https://peterattiamd.com/inigosanmillan/ Where this pokes holes into Pavel's Q&D stuff is here: You have 3 muscle fiber types Type 1 Type 2 Type 2b Type 1 are chock full of mitochondria Type 2 less so Type 2b even less so. Yet Q&D focues on the Type 2b. Yet 5 or 10 'explosive' push ups isn't hitting your 2bs. Neither is 5-10 explosive swings.
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Jake Steinmann At home here Posts 313
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01-29-20 02:51 PM - Post#893328
As one who appreciates the work of both DJ and Pavel, and enjoys participating in both forums, it's the animosity towards people and organizations that surprises me. The Fitno Industrial Complex runs on animosity between people and organizations. More ink has been spilled about "why X organization/method suxxorz" than about any information that would benefit anyone.
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Jordan D Old hand here on IOL Posts 771
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01-29-20 04:17 PM - Post#893331
It's not animosity, it's fatigue. There are some great people there. I just don't visit often anymore because the topics, S+S, A+A, Q+D and bent presses don't interest me. This. It’s just tiring getting the same answer for every question. |
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vegpedlr Old hand here on IOL Posts 1179
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01-29-20 04:24 PM - Post#893332
The part about the dice is funny . . . I suspect the correct answer is some weird Russian dice that always come up high, and get higher the more often you roll them! (mulligan proof) I saw some discussion on The Uphill Athlete forum about that P. Attia podcast. I'd like to listen, but I really dislike listening to Attia, and the criticism was it wouldn't be so long if it wasn't for all the Attia anecdotes. |
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Brian Hassler IOL rocks! Posts 616 |
01-29-20 06:27 PM - Post#893337
I'd say it's both fatigue and unsubstantiated claims. Pavel has never been hesitant to promise the moon while making fun of other people's programs and efforts, and to charge a lot of money for doing so. When his stuff turns out to be mostly smoke and mirrors, there's nothing wrong with getting tired of it, or with calling out the B.S. |
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leon79 Settling in pretty good Posts 53 |
01-29-20 07:00 PM - Post#893338
I don't tend to post much and mostly follow these conversations for their educational value (listening to those of you who have "been there and done that" and know way more than I do about this subject), but I must admit it's still not clear to me why The Quick and the Dead is such a flawed program. I've played around with its parameters a bit and found it intriguing, but some of the comments have me concerned about going down that road. Would someone care to explain its faults for someone who's "out of the loop?" I don't think Q&D is flawed, but it's not a program I'm interested in (which is different from disliking it). I'd rather do its precursor: Strength Aerobics. Anyway, the science of it is well beyond my limited understanding , but I read this some time ago and found it interesting. According to people who do the research and work with TdF cyclists, the way to build mitochondria is via Zone 2 cardio training, and it's got to be 3+ hours weekly, preferably more, to do so. Peter Attia's podcast below, with Inigo San Millan, PhD, is extremely informative and worth the long listen. https://peterattiamd.com/inigosanmillan/ Where this pokes holes into Pavel's Q&D stuff is here: You have 3 muscle fiber types Type 1 Type 2 Type 2b Type 1 are chock full of mitochondria Type 2 less so Type 2b even less so. Yet Q&D focues on the Type 2b. Yet 5 or 10 'explosive' push ups isn't hitting your 2bs. Neither is 5-10 explosive swings. That's very interesting. Thanks for writing that up. Is the problem, then, that the program is fine but it doesn't really do what it's promising to do? If so, that kind of explains my confusion, as my untrained eye was struggling to see a marked difference between it and other minimalist programs. |
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aussieluke Carpal tunnel from posting! Posts 5439
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01-29-20 07:13 PM - Post#893340
During the few weeks when Q&D was half released but hard to get hold of, not only was there some really bad PR work on their forums, there were also people commenting that they had received the book, done a single workout, and they instantly felt amazing and it was the greatest program ever. ...truth is they felt amazing because in around 30 minutes they had only done a handful of pushups and a handful of swings, taken minute after minute of rest, and been fooled into thinking this was all going to increase their mitochondria and turn them into a leopard ...when in fact they had barely even done a warmup let alone a workout. I did the swings and pushups workout once and never will again. As mentioned in a post above, there are a thousand better ways to use a kettlebell for 20-30 minutes. The snatch program appealed to me as I had limited time and quite fancied becoming a leopard. However rushing set after set on one side with minimal rest before switching sides and repeating seems entirely pointless and needlessly fatiguing when you could simply do 20 sets of 5 or 10 sets of 10 on the minute or at your own pace.
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Jake Steinmann At home here Posts 313
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01-29-20 10:16 PM - Post#893346
During the few weeks when Q&D was half released but hard to get hold of, not only was there some really bad PR work on their forums, there were also people commenting that they had received the book, done a single workout, and they instantly felt amazing and it was the greatest program ever. The Q&D rollout was sufficiently awful to convince me that I should no longer give any of my meager sums of money to SF.
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McMan Settling in pretty good Posts 56 
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01-30-20 01:23 AM - Post#893349
I never did S&S but on this other topic that came up...
Sadly I stupidly also (it caught me at a weak moment) bought the newer Q&D book, which is even more ridiculous. But I can say for sure that will be the last SF/Pavel book or product I ever purchase. I bought the Q&D book and did the program 3 times per week for a good 8 to 12 weeks using overspeed eccentic swings and power push ups. I totally bought into the hype and was expecting good things but ended up disappointed by the lack of results. I did some before and after tests with rucking and swimming and saw no improvements. There was also no improved energy and better sleep and whatever other claims were floating about. I don't think the stuff they put out is as good as they like to believe. |
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aussieluke Carpal tunnel from posting! Posts 5439
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01-30-20 01:57 AM - Post#893350
I never did S&S but on this other topic that came up...
Sadly I stupidly also (it caught me at a weak moment) bought the newer Q&D book, which is even more ridiculous. But I can say for sure that will be the last SF/Pavel book or product I ever purchase. I bought the Q&D book and did the program 3 times per week for a good 8 to 12 weeks using overspeed eccentic swings and power push ups. I totally bought into the hype and was expecting good things but ended up disappointed by the lack of results. I did some before and after tests with rucking and swimming and saw no improvements. There was also no improved energy and better sleep and whatever other claims were floating about. I don't think the stuff they put out is as good as they like to believe. But what about your mitochondria???
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RupertC Master trainer Posts 1479
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01-30-20 02:20 AM - Post#893352
A wise man once said that people over-adapt every fitness trend in the short term and under-adapt over the long term. I think Pavel is a great example of this. At the beginning of his career, many people thought he was practically curing cancer. Now, many of the same people think he's a conman. In fact, neither is true. Pavel is doing what he's always done - he uses colourful language, modern marketing techniques and a fanboy forum to sell minimalist programs, which will get ordinary people fitter and stronger with a low risk of hurting themselves. There are, of course, other ways of getting fit and strong. Some of them will be better for your goals, some of them will be worse. Many of them will have a different place on the risk/reward spectrum. YMMV!
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iPood Grand Pooh-Bah Posts 2360 |
01-30-20 02:25 AM - Post#893353
A wise man once said that people over-adapt every fitness trend in the short term and under-adapt over the long term. I think Pavel is a great example of this. At the beginning of his career, many people thought he was practically curing cancer. Now, many of the same people think he's a conman. In fact, neither is true. Pavel is doing what he's always done - he uses colourful language, modern marketing techniques and a fanboy forum to sell minimalist programs, which will get ordinary people fitter and stronger with a low risk of hurting themselves. There are, of course, other ways of getting fit and strong. Some of them will be better for your goals, some of them will be worse. Many of them will have a different place on the risk/reward spectrum. YMMV! This ^^^.
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McMan Settling in pretty good Posts 56
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01-30-20 02:56 AM - Post#893354
I never did S&S but on this other topic that came up...
Sadly I stupidly also (it caught me at a weak moment) bought the newer Q&D book, which is even more ridiculous. But I can say for sure that will be the last SF/Pavel book or product I ever purchase. I bought the Q&D book and did the program 3 times per week for a good 8 to 12 weeks using overspeed eccentic swings and power push ups. I totally bought into the hype and was expecting good things but ended up disappointed by the lack of results. I did some before and after tests with rucking and swimming and saw no improvements. There was also no improved energy and better sleep and whatever other claims were floating about. I don't think the stuff they put out is as good as they like to believe. But what about your mitochondria??? It will remain the unknown mystery that I will never think about again! 
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BChase Old hand here on IOL Posts 854 |
01-30-20 09:49 AM - Post#893359
I never did S&S but on this other topic that came up...
Sadly I stupidly also (it caught me at a weak moment) bought the newer Q&D book, which is even more ridiculous. But I can say for sure that will be the last SF/Pavel book or product I ever purchase. I bought the Q&D book and did the program 3 times per week for a good 8 to 12 weeks using overspeed eccentic swings and power push ups. I totally bought into the hype and was expecting good things but ended up disappointed by the lack of results. I did some before and after tests with rucking and swimming and saw no improvements. There was also no improved energy and better sleep and whatever other claims were floating about. I don't think the stuff they put out is as good as they like to believe. Look at the positive, you did a program and stuck with it for 8-12 weeks. That's more than 85% of what the population is doing. You tried it and that's all that matters. Great work. The mistake was buying it, he doesn't deserve your $ I refuse to buy his stuff anymore. I bought ETK, and Deadlift Dynamite, both which were fantastic. $10 to buy a pushup/swing/snatch book. No thanks, I'm sweet. |
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Chris Rice Old hand here on IOL Posts 702 |
01-30-20 09:54 AM - Post#893360
You pick your "Guru" - you spend your money - you do the program - if it works it works - if not then pick another Guru - or another program - or maybe figure this out yourself as to what works for your goals.Some of the best programs put out by the best gurus are not going to be the one for "you". |
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BrianBinVA Carpal tunnel from posting! Posts 5140
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01-30-20 11:03 AM - Post#893369
A wise man once said that people over-adapt every fitness trend in the short term and under-adapt over the long term. I think Pavel is a great example of this. At the beginning of his career, many people thought he was practically curing cancer. Now, many of the same people think he's a conman. In fact, neither is true. Pavel is doing what he's always done - he uses colourful language, modern marketing techniques and a fanboy forum to sell minimalist programs, which will get ordinary people fitter and stronger with a low risk of hurting themselves. There are, of course, other ways of getting fit and strong. Some of them will be better for your goals, some of them will be worse. Many of them will have a different place on the risk/reward spectrum. YMMV! Well said, Rupert. |
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NJRick Getting the hang of it Posts 47 |
01-30-20 02:03 PM - Post#893381
A wise man once said that people over-adapt every fitness trend in the short term and under-adapt over the long term. I think Pavel is a great example of this. At the beginning of his career, many people thought he was practically curing cancer. Now, many of the same people think he's a conman. In fact, neither is true. Pavel is doing what he's always done - he uses colourful language, modern marketing techniques and a fanboy forum to sell minimalist programs, which will get ordinary people fitter and stronger with a low risk of hurting themselves. There are, of course, other ways of getting fit and strong. Some of them will be better for your goals, some of them will be worse. Many of them will have a different place on the risk/reward spectrum. YMMV! Well said, Rupert. Well said. This thread has convinced me to switch out S&S for Easy Strength and the DMPM, I'm looking forward to the change! |
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TRBeck Getting the hang of it Posts 28 |
01-30-20 02:15 PM - Post#893382
2013-2014 I attempted S&S as a supplement, not as a standalone program. I was running a lot of miles and did S&S post-run 3 days a week. I used an 16kg bell for TGUs initially and 18kg for the swings, eventually bumping those to 18 and 24kg respectively. I kept at it for 5 months and never really progressed like I thought I should when using the prescribed rest periods. Once I increased rest, I was able to manage a bit better with TGUs, but I still felt as though I was hurrying an exercise that ought to be done the right way or not at all. While the program certainly helped me feel like I was doing *something* strengthwise when piling up miles, it never got to be all that enjoyable. That said, doing TGUs so frequently did make them comfortable, which had never been true before (and rarely since). |
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ns182 Haven't posted much Posts 14 |
04-10-20 11:55 PM - Post#896740
We should cheer on those looking for progress. Some temperaments thrive on routine and love S&S. A friend has done it for a few years and it has treated him great. I physically thrived on it & at meeting the Simple standard felt great, had improved athleticism and a few WTHEs (first OAPU, easy pistols). I was no world class athlete prior but @ 40yo had a bw press, 2.5bw deadlift & had run a 1/2 marathon so i was no couch potato. My temperament thrives on variety and problem solving though, so mentally it was tough. I started making my own "same but different" sessions. Instead of always goblets, 1 swings and tgus, I'd rotate different squat variations, snatches & cleans with swings, other pushes etc. I basically went back to another version of squat hinge push pull carry. S&S or DMPM is a good foundation... Many will never need anything more. Others may want ROP, MMS, Q&D or other bus benches, but having the ability to be good at goblets, swings and get ups is not a bad foundation. Relax, it's not that bad guys... From Dan John: Exercise for Fat Loss? “Swings, goblet squats and Turkish get-ups.” Elderly clients? “Swings, goblet squats and Turkish get-ups.” Travel related issues for elite athletes and collision occupations? “Swings, goblet squats and Turkish get-ups.” |
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Kyle Aaron husband, father, trainer - in that order Posts 1911
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04-10-20 11:59 PM - Post#896741
Not too different to "squat for fahves."
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iPood Grand Pooh-Bah Posts 2360 |
04-11-20 05:15 AM - Post#896745
Not too different to "squat for fahves." With a healthy dose of hip drahve on top?
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GeoffreyLevens At home here Posts 357 |
04-11-20 10:48 AM - Post#896754
I kept at it for 5 months and never really progressed like I thought I should when using the prescribed rest periods. Once I increased rest, I was able to manage a bit better with TGUs, but I still felt as though I was hurrying an exercise that ought to be done the right way or not at all. I did S&S for over a year, maybe 18 months. Been quite awhile but pretty sure that the "prescribed rest periods" are until you feel fully ready to go again. Based on your physiology and self-monitoring/self-awar eness almost all the time. The only time you use a stop watch is for the occasional (every few weeks) test to see if you are ready to add weight. As you get stronger and more fit, the self-monitored rest periods should spontaneously, gradually get shorter. That is how I did it and how it worked for me. Should say, worked to the extent that it worked. |
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Justin Jordan Old hand here on IOL Posts 854 
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04-11-20 01:10 PM - Post#896758
Dan will be very pleased his favorite thread is back |
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Dan John Carpal tunnel from posting! Posts 12292
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04-11-20 02:41 PM - Post#896769
Too bad it wasn't lunges and heavy TGUs then I can really help people with it.
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Pepper At home here Posts 296 |
04-11-20 05:23 PM - Post#896779
So you say we should start lunging in the kneeling position of a heavy get up. Got ya. |
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Kiwi5 At home here Posts 264 |
 04-11-20 06:07 PM - Post#896781
I thought lunges were bad... |
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BChase Old hand here on IOL Posts 854 |
04-12-20 07:44 AM - Post#896787
The good news are those stupid pictures with the guys with the facemasks on doing kettlebells aren't so ridiculous looking anymore. I can't believe no one has ever mentioned achieving simple doing bottoms up TGU's. You haven't experienced the full fun of heavy TGU"s unless you've used a barbell. Good times. |
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