02-22-21 07:50 PM - Post#908033    

Two interesting studies out this week. One compared the bone mineral density at lumbar spine (lower back) and femoral neck (hip) of powerlifters, weightlifters, soccer players and recreationally active women.

All groups had greater bone mineral density than recreationally active active women. Soccer players had better hips, powerlifters better lower backs - but weightlifters had both.

"Olympic-style lifting includes both high-impact and odd-impact loading modalities that are associated with the highest BMD at both the lumbar spine and femoral neck."

https://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/20 21/03000/Bone_Mineral_Den sity_Differences_Across_F emal...

The second study is comparing doing high-intensity interval training with moderate intensity of the same total energy expenditure - using hormonal etc markers of prediabetes to see the effect.

"This study demonstrated that both HIIT and CETFAT protocols had similar effects on the insulin resistance index of prediabetic patients."

But I would ask: beyond a 12-week study where you're supervised, which are you more likely to keep up with, HIIT or going for a walk every day?

https://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/20 21/03000/High_Intensity_I nterval_vs__Continuous_En dura...

So as a general prescription for people: go for a walk, do some snatches.

That said, at some point in our ageing the connective tissues weaken - less in active people than sedentary, of course, but still. So there'll come a point where the risks (ligaments popping, etc) outweight the benefits (increased BMD).

And that's why I say, in training for a lifetime:

Kids: play, calisthenics
Adolescents: sports
20s: weightlifting
30s-40s: powerlifting
50s and later: bodybuilding

If you did the previous one you can probably keep going into the next age category, for example someone did calisthenics, sports and then weightlifting in their 20s, they can keep weightlifting into their 30s and 40s. But someone who did not do calisthenics and sports as a kid/adolescent and then took up weightlifting in their 20s probably can't continue it into their 40s.

If you only start anything at all at 50+, then it's more complicated. Essentially all sedentary people over 50 either have something wrong with them now, or will soon - prediabetic or low bone density, for example. A person is probably not going to do the first chinup of their life at 65. For this person we probably need some remedial work, and it's less like working out and more like physiotherapy rehabilitation.

Remember the kid in The Secret Garden who was convinced he was horribly sick and just lay around in bed all day? Many adults are like that kid. He got better in a summer, but he was a kid, and he had a great coach in that little girl who cheerfully mocked him until he got up. Have him lie around for another thirty years, or give him an enabler who lets him lie around some more ("aren't squats bad for your knees? Have some more pudding") and that's a different question.

Thoughts?

Athletic Club East Strength in numbers

Edited by Kyle Aaron on 02-22-21 07:52 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

02-22-21 08:13 PM - Post#908034    

With proper instruction I would broadly agree. One my regrets is not pursuing the Olympic lifts during my twenties. The strength and conditioning sector was gaining a foothold in the early 80's and while I tried a few things like power cleans, rack jerks, etc I never felt confident enough to take a deep dive into barbell snatches until I was already immersed in powerlifting. One of the members at the club where I worked had an Oly background and gave me some coaching and wisely (in my case) advised me to stick to form and explosiveness. If I recall correctly I never snatched over 135 lbs very often, I wanted snap and feared failing.

Your point about bodybuilding after age fifty is likely more correct than I want to admit. It occupies more of my training now than it ever did, but I still enjoy a round or two of 5-3-1 every year.

As I look at your recommendations they appeal to me because it was what naturally evolved for me to a great extent. Perhaps I'm guilty of confirmation bias but if someone were to follow that sequence I think that they would be doing very well for themselves.

02-22-21 10:08 PM - Post#908038    

All is not lost if one does not start early.
I was fat at age 49, lost 55# over a two year period while learning about weight lifting and exercise.
I did my first chin up at age 55.
In my early 60s I tested my bone density and it was in the 99%.
Age 70 my bone density tested in the 99%.
One can choose to change their path at any age. True, it does get harder the older one gets.

02-22-21 10:27 PM - Post#908040    

I'd be interested in your background, Vicki. I'd be very surprised if you were entirely sedentary from 9 to 49yo.

Athletic Club East Strength in numbers

02-22-21 10:51 PM - Post#908041    

Kyle, Vicki is the real deal.

Mark it Zero.

02-22-21 11:54 PM - Post#908042    

Can we pin this to the top?

Daniel John Just handing down what I was handed down... Make a Difference. Live. Love. Laugh. Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude) Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk. Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth. Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights. Reread great books. Say thank you

02-23-21 12:42 AM - Post#908043    

• Upside Said:

5/3/1 is, basically, a extremely well designed “bro-split”.

"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums. It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable. Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow. Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't." Dan Martin

02-23-21 03:35 AM - Post#908047    

You are very inspirational Vicki!

That is sensational work. Fantastic effort.

Andrew Gunn

02-23-21 03:36 AM - Post#908048    

• Kyle Aaron Said:

I believe our genes trump anything we do. I did well in that department, not great, but better then most.

In high school (gym required) I did not run fast, throw far, or jump high. I was never last picked but near the last picked for the sports teams. I liked swimming but did not have a pool available to me often. In college I did not have a car and got around on a bicycle. In my 20s & 30s I tried gyms a few times but did not enjoy them or find them engaging, a drag. I fought weight gain being on the heavy side of normal. A few part time jobs I held were on my feet all day. My 40s were not good and I gained weight and gave up, accepting I would be fat for the rest of my life. At 48 I decided to at least be healthy and researched health, exercise, weight training, etc. I found DaveDraper.com. I learned about exercise and the joy of strength and movement.

I would probably be better off if I had been trained from a earlier age. Or maybe I would have worn myself out or broken myself had I worked at this exercise training from a young age. It matters not, I am who I am now and very grateful to DaveDraper.com. I am considered a very healthy senior.

My point is to never give up, always realize you have choices. Choosing the best path will gain the most rewards, though usually not the easiest path.

02-23-21 03:36 AM - Post#908049    

Word! I like this. I'd only add "watch your diet after 30s, don't gain excessive weight".

02-23-21 04:06 AM - Post#908051    

• Kyle Aaron Said:

Fat doesn't mean sedentary. I know plenty of fat adults who don't stop moving (sadly, a lot of kids too) especially following two lockdowns. So I'd add (as others have pointed out) don't let your appetite extend past your goals.

02-23-21 08:30 AM - Post#908065    

I rarely have anything to add to these excellent discussions, but, I had an interesting observation last Friday...

Went to a county facility to get my first of two covid vaccine doses. Our group was aged 50 and up. I assume that most were under 65 as we were classified as workers. I would guess that I saw about 300 plus people there going through check lines, filling out forms ,getting their shots and being observed for reactions.

I could count three people that looked ‘fit’. I was the only one that I saw carrying any appreciable muscle. Stunned.

All this time it’s been strange to me how medical people start to act so differently towards you when you get over 50 (my numbers are fine and my only prescription is for a cpap at 56).
I get it now.

"So shines a good deed in a weary world."

02-23-21 08:50 AM - Post#908066    

I've had to go to a PT rehab clinic that also had the contract for doing drug screens for new job applicants once or twice. Sitting in the waiting room with all of the rehab patients I was struck with one thing. Almost all of them were there for knee or hip replacement rehab and it was obvious that their chassis was too large to be supported by their legs. Hence the knee and hip problems.

02-23-21 09:04 AM - Post#908067    

This is the type of discussion I get on the Internet for.

• Upside Said:

Amen to that.

02-23-21 09:41 AM - Post#908068    

• Dan John Said:

Done.

Mark it Zero.

02-23-21 10:44 AM - Post#908070    

As an aside, the older a trainee gets, the more important it is to choose your poison wisely. Intervals/HIIT? Of course, but I'd suggest either high reps swings or the aforementioned snatches. There are other choices naturally, but you can scale those two exercises accordingly.

Mark it Zero.

Re: Go for a walk, do some snatches
02-23-21 11:25 AM - Post#908072    

• Kyle Aaron Said:

Great thread. Having reached four score and ten years, this is where I'm at now. Kettlebell snatches several times a week supplemented with walking, yard work or throwing. Trying to decide if I have another highland games season in me.

"Coyote is always waiting, and Coyote is always hungry."

Edited by Steve Rogers on 02-23-21 11:25 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

Re: Go for a walk, do some snatches
02-23-21 11:46 AM - Post#908073    

• Steve Rogers Said:

You're 90?

Mark it Zero.

Go for a walk, do some snatches
02-23-21 10:30 PM - Post#908082    

• Vicki Said:

It's probably true, but I tend to ignore anything I don't have control over.

Thanks for the outline.

• Quoting:

You did start early. You were active in one way or another for most of your life, and slowed down in your 40s. You had a good base, you'd just drifted off a bit, and have now come back with an absolute vengeance. That's great!

But think: by the time you were 49, you'd been active for about 80% of your life - even if the last 20% was the most recent period, that's still a different thing to someone who's been sedentary almost all that time. Those people have it tough.

• Brian N Said:

Yes. That's been my observation, too.

• SpiderLegs Said:

Yes, many studies have shown a large association between obesity and knee and hip replacements. To be fair, though - if every step causes you pain, you probably don't want to do 10,000 of them a day - and so the waistline grows, making the steps more painful still...

Thus the importance of getting straight onto things. Untreated health problems compound like an unpaid mortgage.

Athletic Club East Strength in numbers

Edited by Kyle Aaron on 02-23-21 10:30 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

Re: Go for a walk, do some snatches
02-24-21 12:26 AM - Post#908083    

• Kyle Aaron Said:

There is a quote that I have always loved and have never forgotten.

The quote is " Those who think they have little time for exercise will soon realise they have to find time for illness."

Thus, those people who become obese or neglect their diets will eventually find illness. The irony is they will not be able to walk 10 000 steps a day or exercise strenuously in recovery after their op or surgery due to heart issues or joint replacements.

Moral of the story - weight train, move every day, eat healthy, get regular check ups.

Edited by Gunny72 on 02-24-21 12:27 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

Re: Go for a walk, do some snatches
02-24-21 07:13 AM - Post#908084    

• DanMartin Said:

No, just getting my quotes mixed up. I'm 70, but this seems to work for me.

"Coyote is always waiting, and Coyote is always hungry."

Re: Go for a walk, do some snatches
02-24-21 09:02 AM - Post#908085    

• Gunny72 Said:

That is the difference between a long life and a long old age.

Re: Go for a walk, do some snatches
02-24-21 05:22 PM - Post#908102    

Very true Vicki.

Andrew Gunn

Re: Go for a walk, do some snatches
02-25-21 10:18 AM - Post#908114    

I think building a base through just being active is so important.

Kids most probably just need to play and love moving....once then hit teens some time spent exploring this in PE classwork be good....think Cross Country, gymnastics, obstacle courses etc.

I trained some youth performance athletes a few years back and the number of them coming to sessions that couldn't take part was staggering. The basketball players had about 7 sessions a week - on top of school PE etc. Somebody thought this really early specialisation was a good idea.

My dad was always really active. In the Scottish rugby set up for a while. He retired as many high level rugby guys do and for a while didn't so much. Gained weight.
He dabbled with marathon running (not a wise call for someone of his proportions).

After gaining too much weight and moving he spends much of his time gardening, yard work (as someone in his mid 60's he is the resident Gardner for the older people who live near him), walking and he feels amazing.
So like Kyle said - even with a gap in the middle, having been active in the first few decades helped him when he returned to it recently.

Move everyday....the best form is the one that you want to return to over and over.

Richard

02-25-21 04:52 PM - Post#908122    

I know a lot of old Rugby players who have put on some weight after retirement. They still consume the same amount of calories but move much less.

Yes, movement is vitally important as we get older.

As the saying goes "use it or lose it."

Re: Go for a walk, do some snatches
03-03-21 07:49 PM - Post#908456    

• Kyle Aaron Said:

Kyle, or anyone, what would you suggest for a 60 year old highlands athlete (aka Scottish Games). Would it better to focus on the quick lifts/o-lifts to maintain what fast twitch fibers remain? Or lean towards bodybuilding to strengthen and protect joints and ligaments.

Of course most of the year, eight months or so, is dedicated to throwing.

03-04-21 04:13 AM - Post#908465    

I've never been or trained a Highlands athlete. That's a question for Dan John.

Athletic Club East Strength in numbers

Re: Go for a walk, do some snatches
03-04-21 11:20 AM - Post#908485    

• Joe Fogler Said:

As Dan might say, if depends. I started in the Highland Games at age 57 and last competed at 69. Without more information it could be anywhere from "go for a walk, do some snatches" to bodybuilding to all the above.

How long have you been in the games? What other training are you doing now or have you done in the past? What equipment do you have available? How much time and recovery do you have available for for training?

"Coyote is always waiting, and Coyote is always hungry."

Re: Go for a walk, do some snatches
03-04-21 06:52 PM - Post#908499    

• Steve Rogers Said:

Steve, I am also a late arrival to the games, I started at 55. I threw shot, discus and hammer a few years before highland games. The wire hammer was the gateway drug to the highlands implements.

Right now I do some O-lift variants - power cleans, power snatches, military press, push press and front squats. I am not moving heavy weights to avoid injury. And because I am not that strong.

Right now I lift twice a week, one day moderate, one day light. Occasionally I'll go a bit more than moderate but not too much and not too often.

Next week I start throwing and will throw almost exclusively until November.

Somewhere I heard that fast twitch muscle converts to slow twitch if you use the fast twitch. I don't know if that is true. I would like to hear from others, like yourself, who've been there, done that.

03-04-21 09:38 PM - Post#908503    

Joe, your current approach seems reasonable if a little vague. Is your twice a week lifting off-season only or do you continue through the throwing season? I consider bodybuilding to be a prehab/rehab sort of thing for a thrower.

We do tend to lose fast twitch fibers as we age but training them can mitigate this. Olympic variants and throwing are good activities to help maintain those fast twitch fibers.

"Coyote is always waiting, and Coyote is always hungry."

03-05-21 10:07 PM - Post#908539    

• Kyle Aaron Said:

What sort of hammer doesn’t think everything is a nail that needs to be hit?

Seriously, great answer. There should be more of this!

Re: Go for a walk, do some snatches
03-14-22 07:12 PM - Post#917969    

OP is great and I love that line of thinking.

Fwiw, I think Al Ciampa has some very good ideas and "go for a walk, do some snatches" is pretty much the base of how he does the whole alactic + aerobic thing (heavy kb snatches, not bb).

Re: Go for a walk, do some snatches
03-15-22 10:40 AM - Post#917989    

I believe that we need to explore the walking/kb snatch routine as an adjunct to the DMPM.

Mark it Zero.

Re: Go for a walk, do some snatches
03-21-22 01:34 PM - Post#918187    

I have been doing kb-snatches with the kneel after each set per side for years with a jog or a walk afterwards.

It is my go-to after hill-sprints

Re: Go for a walk, do some snatches
04-16-22 02:14 PM - Post#918963    

• DanMartin Said:

Snatches and walking....it's an intriguing prospect.

Richard

Re: Go for a walk, do some snatches
08-10-22 05:25 PM - Post#921097    

• Kyle Aaron Said:

Thanks for the info about the studies.
My thoughts: Better late than never.

It always starts with motivation. Period. Once that exists, I'd say do whatever you can and keep improving. Nothing wrong with PT gym if that is 'prescribed' and when possible just take it further and keep going while having fun.
And if you stopped, just start again. Cheers.
---------------
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTPbssIa-kY

Aut viam inveniam aut faciam.

Re: Go for a walk, do some snatches
11-09-22 09:52 PM - Post#923144    

• Steve Rogers Said:

I thought the same thing. It made me look twice.

Bacon is the gateway meat. - Anthony Bourdain The world needs fewer business majors and more history majors. - Carl Sagan