05-31-19 08:55 PM - Post#882911    

I've worked w/ kettlebells for about 7 years, lately been off on a barbell journey. About ready to bring back the kb's and would like to combine. Any feedback on my proposed program would be welcome!

I'm 69 and my goals are just GPP for old age, being able to carry groceries, change a tire, split wood for a fire if necessary, feel and look solid enough so young punks might possibly think twice. That's really about it, avoiding frailty as long as possible, hopefully until just before the big dirt nap

For LSD cardio I walk several miles every day. I live in very rural, mountain town so it's more an aesthetic pleasure than "working out". Plan is for A and B days alternating pretty much daily with a day completely off just going by feel.

A:
•A+A snatches---30% body weight (16 kg) or 38% body weight (20 kg) depending on how I feel that day. 5 solid reps and rest until recovered X 20-40 sets, again depending on how I feel. Last time I was doing this it was mostly 30 sets at 30% but I'm definitely stronger now....

B:
•10 Turkish getups [alternating sides]
•2 sets X barbell power clean with 5 front squats
•a couple fairly loaded heavy carries

That's it. Thanks!



Edited by GeoffreyLevens on 06-01-19 08:29 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

05-31-19 10:43 PM - Post#882915    

You. Only weigh about 115 pounds?

Feedback on new program?
06-01-19 06:55 AM - Post#882917    

• tom6112 Said:

Yes. I rounded off but 120 lbs generally. 5'3" tall. Saves a bit of $$$ because I don't need to buy as much iron to get to goals HAH!

Had a verrrrry salty meal yesterday at lunch and this morning up about 3 lbs but that's retained water and will be gone by tomorrow.

I have a 24 kg kettlebell waiting for when my snatch strength is ready to start working that in.

Edited by GeoffreyLevens on 06-01-19 07:02 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

06-01-19 10:39 AM - Post#882927    

Looks good to me. If it were me, I would do more classic push pull moves, but I realize your shoulder limits exercise selection.

So try it and see. In the meantime, how did the BB experiment go? What equipment did you settle on, what routine etc.

06-01-19 10:56 AM - Post#882929    

• vegpedlr Said:

I figure snatch is the pull. TGU seems to me mostly push, esp since I try to do the floor press explosively on the way up and verrrrry slowly for the negative on the way down. FSQ to balance the legs/posterior chain from the snatch. And the carries tie it all together. That's my theory anyway.

• vegpedlr Said:

Probably a few more weeks before I actually start. I went to bb work because after months of subtle hints from Egoscue trainer I realized she was correct, that I didn't have the core stability to safely do kb ballistics. The circular/lateral component, coming out of the hole and catching the snatch drop (even though it is mostly vertical) were getting away from me just a bit. Boils down to lower cross syndrome that regular training was not addressing. Bought cheap iron (Gold's Gym plates). Also got CAP 5 foot barbell which fits nicely in my small apt bedroom space and with my short arms works fine for me. And a pair of CAP loadable dumbbell handles for carries etc. Played around a bit and decided that with those relatively fragile plates and more to the point, in a thin walled apt, dropping a loaded bar was best avoided as much as possible. Snatching a bar seems to me a lot more difficult than cleaning it, needs more precision and the lockout puts the weight a lot farther from your center. Anyway, I found that barbell cleans were fine with my core so what I"ve been doing is
*6 TGU's (alternating
*10 X clean, front squat, 3 presses (indicates disparity in strength of various body parts)
*2X5 Romanian DL's
*Loaded carries

Today as experiment I changed the clean/squat/press sets to 2 X 5 FSQ and 2 X 5 presses and it felt better.

Over the past months I've gotten stronger, gained some visible muscle, and almost but not quite cleared up the lower cross issue. Soon as that feels solid, the kb phase will start. Just a couple days ago, when walking I suddenly noticed that I felt more "stacked" in the field of gravity, that my pelvis and torso were spontaneously better aligned. And I think the same day or day before, I noticed that something I'd been struggling with for months was happening automatically. That is getting and maintaining solid tension in glutes and abs when catching the clean, and most noticeably when pressing overhead. I've had a tendency to let my lower abs go slack as soon as I load up with something. Egoscue helped but I really think doing EMDR w/ psychotherapist around very early infancy medical trauma was a key piece of the puzzle.

06-01-19 11:12 AM - Post#882931    

Well, the KB snatch can be magical. I was surprised to see Power Cleans but I think this is damn good.

Hinges and Loaded Carries seem to the key to so much, so "yes," this is good.

Daniel John Just handing down what I was handed down... Make a Difference. Live. Love. Laugh. Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude) Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk. Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth. Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights. Reread great books. Say thank you

06-01-19 11:50 AM - Post#882932    

Thank you! The power cleans are mostly because I don't have a squat rack and need to get the bar up there somehow. Been doing them recently and enjoy the challenge of trying to get the movement pattern and necessary speed.

Probably wouldn't be a big deal if I was 30 but starting to learn it in my "dotage" I think the learning curve is probably a bit steeper. The good news is that keeps me from letting my ego dictate too much weight too soon.

06-01-19 08:37 PM - Post#882949    

C+P+FSQ=Awesome Sauce

Good work.

06-01-19 09:16 PM - Post#882950    

• vegpedlr Said:

Thanks. And fun to do, combining the explosiveness of the clean with the grinds in a complex. Hard but not too hard.

06-03-19 10:18 AM - Post#883002    

Do you really need anything more than this program ever?

06-03-19 10:31 AM - Post#883005    

Alex, my thoughts exactly.

Owen Brown, a Biomedical Scientist from Pontyclun, Wales.

06-03-19 10:38 AM - Post#883006    

• SinisterAlex Said:

HAH! Kind of what I was thinking; the forever program.

06-03-19 06:38 PM - Post#883022    

• vegpedlr Said:

More, I think TGU gives me more bang for buck in what I'm after which is just daily living strength and mobility, lots of mobility. Being able to get down on the floor and back up again is a huge thing for many older people. Classic push pull moves while excellent for building strength in those directions maybe not so helpful in the aging well pursuit. Not harmful in that pursuit, just not so helpful. And I want to keep the work load low enough for this to be park bench kind of thing, so simplify...

06-03-19 09:04 PM - Post#883026    

• SinisterAlex Said:

Maybe add some loaded carries.

"Coyote is always waiting, and Coyote is always hungry."

06-04-19 07:18 AM - Post#883053    

• Steve Rogers Said:

They are in there. See last item on B day. I've been doing them almost daily for the last 8 or 9 months! I think they are a permanent addition until I can no longer walk which I hope won't be more than a few days before I die! ;)

Feedback on new program?
06-21-19 06:18 AM - Post#883760    

3 days in and I like it except for one issue that's occurred to me. Doing 10 squats and 2 cleans every other day, it won't take long for my front squat strength to outpace my clean strength/ability. I'm going to try adding in another 8 cleans. Hopefully it won't be "too much" work. Based on how it feels so far it should be fine; still plenty "easy".

Edited by GeoffreyLevens on 06-21-19 06:33 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

06-25-19 08:46 AM - Post#883877    

Damn, you have it all in there.
This could even be a nice program for younger guys like me.

Modification for younger guys:

- LSD runs 2-3x instead of walks (using MAF-numbers?)
- Low volume of heavy Deadlifts in Workout B
- Once per week go for some hill sprints after Workout A

Thoughts?

06-25-19 09:47 AM - Post#883885    

Thanks Hellequin. It feels pretty balanced and complete to me. I have tried squats and dl's in same workout at Easy Strength levels and it was definitely too much! I'd say one or the other. Since if you go really heavy, which I don't do, you could probably do squats and dl's on alternate B days and make good progress. Or just do one for awhile, couple months, then switch to the other. I think running vs walking depends on your goals as much as age. When I was younger, running for sure but that was to keep me tuned for the demands of martial arts, snowboarding, and surfing. Hmmm, now that I think about it, that's pretty much exactly why I need to walk instead of run now! HAH! Funny in a good way though that despite my rusty hinges, I feel as robust and vital now as I did back then.

06-27-19 09:25 AM - Post#883995    

Ok, I surrender. Snatches no can do. The window of space that I can lock out and not get sharp, burning pain is just too tiny. Inevitably there's a few reps that aren't exactly, precisely perfect and it lights up. Over time it's cumulative. Felt fine after session on Tuesday and all day yesterday, but this morning, snatch session, much more sensitive. I can do warm up sets w/ 12 kg no problem but as soon as I started w/ my current working weight of 16 kg, shoulder was noticeably worse. Soooooo, I did most of the 30 repeats using 7 reps of high pulls. The way I do them is swing all the way to float, then during the float, pull back hard as if trying to elbow someone behind me in the face, then punch it back out. That entire pull/push happens during the float and the bell starts to drop just about when my elbow is back fully extended. I'll know for sure after a few sessions, but so far that seems to be fine. If it isn't then I'll just go with swings. I like the high pull because it gives movement to upper back muscles and a bit more work than swings in same time period of just about 12-13 seconds.

Feedback on new program?
09-13-19 02:47 PM - Post#887669    

It's been about 3 months of the program in my OP. Still liking it a lot. AND as these things happen, my mind has become fascinated w/ low intensity trap bar jump squats (fairly light and low-moderate number of reps) or just trap bar DL's or some of each.

I'm thinking in the range of ½ bodyweight or even less and 5-10 singles every other day if plyo, or about 70% 1RM for 10 reps if dl's? I realize that plyometrics might be a bit "much" for someone pushing 70. How about lighter dl's done very explosively like clean pulls?

Any suggestions on specifics and for a programming rookie on how to fold some of those into the mix? Cut and replace, reduce and augment? Also, at what point in the work out?

Many thanks!

Edited by GeoffreyLevens on 09-13-19 04:45 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

Re: Feedback on new program?
09-13-19 06:19 PM - Post#887673    

I'm 68 and avoid plyometrics but have other issues with one titanium/plastic knee and the other knee bone on bone. I think explosive deadlifts provide most of the benefit with much less risk. I've been doing them at 60-80% 1RM 4-5 days a week for the last couple of weeks in the middle of my workout. Only 9 reps each day as 1-2-3 in the lower part of the range add weight to middle to upper part 1-2. I think this is sustainable but will be traveling starting next seek so I'll transition to a one kettlebell workout for that next week and come back to deadlifts when I have a barbell again.

"Coyote is always waiting, and Coyote is always hungry."

09-13-19 07:15 PM - Post#887675    

Thanks Steve. Makes double sense for you to avoid plyo but still probably a good idea for me as well. Reading your reply, I'm thinking I could do 9 or 10 reps as finisher on my kb swing/high pull days which would mean alternating weeks of 3 and 4 days.

Feedback on new program?
09-13-19 07:22 PM - Post#887677    

• Quoting:

We share the same goal.
I had hopes of training to breathe dirt when dead but they never worked out.
The loaded carries never worked for me.
My liver couldn't take it.
Anyhow no matter, retain a sense of humor throughout the inevitable decline we all have to face.
Very few or the bright-boy trainers mention that, but I believe it's top of the list.
And how funny is that! I mean, in sports the mental aspects are paramount now.
But in the real game, LIFE, we all know we won't win when we're done, yet
very little is said to address this fact.

Ah, whatever. Find a program that makes you feel more alive when you do it.
That, I think, is the goal for older fools like us.

Life's too short to worry about longevity.

Edited by Neander on 09-13-19 07:30 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

09-13-19 07:30 PM - Post#887678    

Sense of humor #1 for sure. Don't give up though. Maybe if you try breathing dirt while loaded?

Feedback on new program?
09-13-19 07:31 PM - Post#887679    

Face down in the gutter looking at the stars!

I say don't think too much. Enjoy your workouts.
The rewards are there for us.

Programming is funny too. I like to make sure that

for every day I work out when I want to I work out one day that I don't want to.
So for every "YES" workout you make sure you make yourself do one "I don't wanna" one.
That's natural.

It's probably only good for people who actually enjoy the stuff though.
That works for me. Sounds too simple to be usable, and doesn't have any science behind it, but it works.

Life's too short to worry about longevity.

Edited by Neander on 09-13-19 07:43 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

09-13-19 07:46 PM - Post#887680    

You're definitely on the right track I think. Just inhale sharp, deep snorts through your nose while in the gutter and as long as it's dry, you should get plenty of dirt for training purposes.

I have opposite programming problem i.e. I tend to want to work out when my body doesn't and shouldn't. So I have to program overall sessions to not be too intense just in case.

Feedback on new program?
09-13-19 09:53 PM - Post#887681    

Hello again!

For sure, I appreciate what you're saying about being a bit older and having to rein in your efforts. It never really hit me till the last six months and a bit or so, and I'm only 66. That does hurt, and I don't mean physically, I mean spiritually and motivationally. Not being able to just use your mind to will the next bit of progress is a right pain in the, er, um, elbow, shoulder and knee.

But damn it! I still can't bring myself to believe it. And still keep doing minor, not major, minor little tweaks and creating stupid pains in my body from working out.

Hey, who really wants to ever grow up and realize how old they are!
Maybe it's better to be a dreamer and not face reality so long as you don't injure yourself seriously?

No big thing here, I've never been a fan of the proper way of doing anything.

Damn the rationality, we is as close to GODS as we're ever gonna get.

Life's too short to worry about longevity.

Edited by Neander on 09-13-19 09:56 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

09-14-19 04:57 AM - Post#887688    

I'm also finally catching on to the hard fact that I ain't as young as yesterday. "Little tweaks and stupid pains" are definitely acting as teachers. Couple weeks ago I was doing cleans for my A+A day and got a bit enthusiastic, increasing the weight a bit. All was well until towards the end I was working into a bit more fatigue than I should have a bobbled the catch in the rack. OOPS! A wee kimura for my elbow before I managed to reel it in. I'm quite sure if I were 20, that would have been a 2 day minor ache. At this time though, it took a couple weeks to get back up to full speed; I had to cut back load quite a bit and could not even do dead hangs from bar. Live and learn or at least hopefully learn.

Nothing like putting it up on a forum and pondering to cause the lights to go on. 1 a.m. old man bathroom break wakeup and the answer to programming the trap bar seems obvious. Well proven that squats and dl's are too much taking together. But TBDL's split the difference and hit most of the muscles that both do and give most of the benefits of both. Wasn't thinking clearly before because I got sort of married to cleans. Love doing them. But straight substitution seems the go; take out the clean+front squats from my program and replace w/ explosive TBDL's. Probably will do 2 or 3 months worth and then go back and test clean/squat and also my dl and see what the effects have been.

09-14-19 10:33 AM - Post#887694    

• Dan John Said:

I see a book here..

Mark it Zero.

09-14-19 11:50 AM - Post#887696    

• DanMartin Said:

I remember distinctly having said that to you several times.

"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums. It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable. Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow. Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't." Dan Martin

09-14-19 01:25 PM - Post#887699    

I am 58 and my first goal is not to get hurt.
So I don’t do any jumping at all.
Jumping with weights seems to risky to me

09-14-19 01:35 PM - Post#887700    

• tom6112 Said:

Yes. That plyo business was my inner 8th grader talking.

09-14-19 09:55 PM - Post#887708    

Hahaha! Good to know someone else thinks this way at times.

Life's too short to worry about longevity.

09-15-19 09:12 AM - Post#887718    

• Neander Said:

At time? AT TIMES???? It's a constant battle to keep that little dude out of the mix.

09-15-19 03:02 PM - Post#887724    

You two better act your age or you are going to get hurt

09-15-19 04:59 PM - Post#887728    

• tom6112 Said:

That's why we're fighting it; hurt has already happened. Numerous times!

10-08-19 10:52 AM - Post#888831    

Have the same problems. I didn’t really do much shoulder work but have had annoying shoulders for the past year, now that I’ve gotten rid of flat bb bench, started doing more delt work and incline benching my shoulders haven’t been as sore, I’ll see how it continues too go though.

10-10-19 04:27 PM - Post#888942    

• GeoffreyLevens Said:

I advise you read this article https://workoutme.com/shoulder before you start

10-10-19 05:01 PM - Post#888943    

Thank you, Garry. Too late for before I start since I've been doing this since June! Recently changed it up a bit but regardless, I've never done and doubt I ever will do isolation exercises. When my one shoulder was really acting up I did the YTWL shoulder rehab with bands for awhile and it seemed to help some. Best thing I've ever done for my shoulders is dead hangs from pull up bar which I now do daily and likely always will. Pretty sure my left shoulder had a Type 3 shape to the acromium so I'm just susceptible to impingement on that side; also a bit on the right but very minor on that side. Anyway, hanging for a couple minutes to finish my work outs and not doing kettlebell snatches has allowed me to be pain free and even sleep on my left side.

10-23-19 10:36 AM - Post#889445    

Couple months ago, decided to change things up. New work out consists of A, B, C, D days as follows:
------------------------- --------------
A: A+A swings/high pulls/snatch/clean---30% body weight (16 kg) or 38% body weight (20 kg) depending on how I feel that day. 8 solid reps and rest until recovered X 20-40 sets, again depending on how I feel.

B: 10 Turkish getups [aternating sides]
2 X 5 power cleans
1 power clean+5 front squats X 5 (at 70%)
a couple fairly heavly loaded heavy carries

C: 10 Turkish getups [aternating sides]
Trapbar DL 5X5 (at 70%)
2 heavily loaded carries

D: REST

A, B, C, D, and repeat
----------------------
Last October I tested testosterone and estrogen as part of my yearly "monitoring". (I will be 70 in December.) (I've been mostly vegan though occasional grass fed critter, a couple ounces in a meal, as desired, so once every few weeks.)

Estrogen was good level. Testosterone was 465 which is low normal range for my age; not near low enough to consider supplementing. Just tested again. Estrogen a schooch higher than last time, likely just normal fluctuations. Testosterone is now 566. That's a 100 ng/dl increase!!!

The only thing I can think of that might have caused this is my program change since all else is same same,. The blood draw was done on a rest day so not a few hours transient fluctuation from immediate physical effort as I have seen claimed. Could that be enough to cause that result? I'll take it for sure. There are signs of noticeable, overall benefits...

10-23-19 12:46 PM - Post#889449    

Good work. I like the program. The grass fed critters, not so much, but that’s just me. But I know you can get some good stuff where you are.

10-23-19 01:03 PM - Post#889450    

Thank you. Mostly the critter is because I have some in the freezer. Had none for almost a month and am about to test IGF-1. The reason I started it was because that number was dangerously low and occasional meat brought up to 123 (90-150 is about the sweet spot between degeneration and cancer)

10-23-19 06:08 PM - Post#889457    

Forgot to mention, 2 mile walk daily, some days as much as 5 miles

Feedback on new program?
11-14-19 04:52 PM - Post#890350    

Changing it up again because I'm facing the fact that my clean sucks! Heh... As the weight has increased a little, it has become much more of a vertical row. Two obvious reasons so the fix is in with my new program.

1) Deep, unconscious fear of dropping under the bar rapidly to catch it. I think maybe from two knee surgeries in a month about 20 years ago and long, brutal rehab.
2) Just not getting the timing right to get solid, powerful shove from upper thighs against bar

Fix for #1 is I've gone back to super light, basically bar (I have 5 foot, 20lb bar so have a ten and a 2 ½ on each end). Heavy enough to feel but plenty light enough to not feel threatening. I will very slowly increase weight, holding at same until comfortable.

Fix for #2 is having watched many and conflicting videos, many with garbage suggestions and drills (appalling really) I finally found the good stuff. You can't hardly beat and multiple champion

https://youtu.be/_3WeR9NdflI

Watching this in slo-mo, esp the parts already in slow motion, it becomes easy to see the specifics. That combined with the light weight and after 2nd session I feel like I am solidly on track.

So my current program is now
A) KB high pulls~ 30 sets of 8
B) TGUX10 alternating, Clean 5X5, Loaded carry X 2
C) TGUX10 alternating, Trapbar front squat (see below) 5X5, carry
D) Rest
Dead hang from bar total 2 minutes/daily
Walk daily 2-3 miles on average

Been noticing how much variation is available in how you set up lifting trapbar from the floor. Shin/hip/back angle can range from Romanian or stiff legged deadlift, to low bar back squat, to high bar, to front squat. I'm using stack of 10 lb plates+wood platform to lift from deficit so near ATG. Doing the touch and go. Hoping to strengthen my clean catching ability per video I saw of Dmitry Klokov recommending doing squats with super slow, as slow as possible, on the way down, fast back up.

I'm liking the whole thing and looking forward to the next day each time.

Edited by GeoffreyLevens on 11-14-19 04:53 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

11-14-19 10:00 PM - Post#890374    

Geoffrey-

Are you really performing 30 sets of 8 in the KB High Pull? I mean no disrespect, but that seems like a lot. If so, how long is the training session?

Feedback on new program?
11-15-19 05:38 AM - Post#890380    

Upside, yes. I'm currently using about 37% bodyweight and the A+A protocol from Al Ciampi.

https://bewellandstrong.com/blog/a-a-training/

So 8 reps in about 15 seconds then rest until fully recovered which for me takes about 70-75 seconds. I could go more than 30 sets, there's some left in the tank. But it feels about right time to stop. My m.o. is if it takes longer than 2 minutes to recover I'm either too tired or the weight is too much. And if I'm ready for the next set in under 1 minute, it's time to increase the weight. Idea is to burn off the energy stored in cells' ATP, then rest while aerobic system recharges that storage. Theory is that burn off takes 15-20 seconds and is perceivable by abrupt, slight drop off in power and explosiveness of movement.; that's that time to start rest period.

So not counting warm up, I think the 30 sets takes me 40-45 minutes. Then I do 2 minutes dead hang from pullup bar and on the breakfast!

Edited by GeoffreyLevens on 11-15-19 06:39 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

11-15-19 05:41 AM - Post#890381    

Just found this which seems like really good info and learning ideas for me. Zack isn't a world champion or Olympian but most of what I've seen of his makes intuitive sense to me

Get Over It (Optimizing the Snatch/Clean)
https://youtu.be/BmG0kbRVPnQ

11-16-19 06:11 PM - Post#890433    

Geoffrey-

My apologies, had I re-read the thread I would have saved us both time. You mentioned early on that you were embracing the A&A protocol. I wish you continued success.

11-17-19 10:53 AM - Post#890441    

Thanks Upside!