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Display Name Post: Unexpected place for a pivot discussion        (Topic#37769)
Donald123
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Total Posts: 56
08-24-21 06:10 PM - Post#912801    



https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/powerlifting-is-not -the-one-noble

Freddie deBoer mostly writes about politics and education policy and culture and mental illness so I wasn’t expecting a weightlifting thread at his substack ( most of his articles including this one are free). But that’s what he wrote today. It echoes the pivot thread that appeared here recently. The comment thread is great too and the Art of Manliness blogger shows up to correct Freddie in a good natured way. I think people here would enjoy reading it.
 
BrianBinVA
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Total Posts: 4691
08-25-21 10:22 AM - Post#912812    



Thanks for posting that -- enjoyed it, and was not familiar with his work. Very much agree with the main point that most people, regardless of what type of training they are doing, are doing it largely to look better (in combination with many other motivations), and would be better off if they just admit that!


 
DanMartin
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Total Posts: 20523
Unexpected place for a pivot discussion
08-25-21 01:36 PM - Post#912813    



I will be a contraian here. Once I eschewed my half-ass unproductive bodybuilding routine and went to just the three powerlifts my size and strength exceeded my expectations.

The three powerlifts provide stimulus to the whole body in a simple to learn format. Please note, I did not say easy.

Once you develop decent form, it's just a matter of putting in the work two or three days a week.

Many would say that you need to change your routine to keep the gain train rolling. I say BS. Just keep adding reps and weight.

To be clear. I do not think that the current iteration of the various powerlifting federations is where it's at. And by that I mean all the suits, belts, wraps, sling shots, what have you. Just do the three lifts. Maybe wear a belt and solid shoes.
Mark it Zero.


 
Jordan D
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Total Posts: 560
Re: Unexpected place for a pivot discussion
08-25-21 05:28 PM - Post#912815    



  • DanMartin Said:

Just keep adding reps and weight.




Amen.
 
BrianBinVA
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Total Posts: 4691
08-25-21 08:37 PM - Post#912816    



I didn't take it as suggesting powerlifting-based training couldn't or wouldn't or doesn't work, just that it's not the "one true way" that so many on the Internet make it out to be.


 
AAnnunz
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Total Posts: 24100
Re: Unexpected place for a pivot discussion
08-26-21 09:21 AM - Post#912821    



  • Jordan D Said:
  • DanMartin Said:

Just keep adding reps and weight.




Amen.


Getting bigger and stronger always was and always will be about progressive overload.
Be strong. Be in shape. Be a man among men, regardless of your age or circumstances.




Edited by AAnnunz on 08-26-21 01:00 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
 
RupertC
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Total Posts: 1451
08-26-21 09:50 AM - Post#912822    



My feeling is that a good 95% of the BS about fitness comes because people make assumptions instead of asking what someone else's goals are.

This guy gets the first part right. He is totally upfront about his own objective: "That’s my goal: to add muscle to look better, for myself if for no one else." So, in his world maybe isolation curls make more sense than chin-ups. Fine! Nothing wrong with that at all.

The problem comes when he makes assumptions about why "the vast majority" are lifting. Maybe a big chunk share his goals. However, I think the people on this forum mainly fall into the "weekend warrior" subcategory of "men taking their hobbies too seriously." For many of us, chin-ups will be better than isolation curls.

If we begin a conversation by asking "What is your goal?" we will get better results all around. Weekend warriors shouldn't have tried to get the author to drop curls; and he shouldn't try to get weekend warriors to stop doing chin-ups. Different goals demand different paths!
Check out my critical-thinking blog at sharpenyouraxe.substack.com


 
Matt_T
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Total Posts: 211
08-26-21 10:56 AM - Post#912827    



  • RupertC Said:
My feeling is that a good 95% of the BS about fitness comes because people make assumptions instead of asking what someone else's goals are.

This guy gets the first part right. He is totally upfront about his own objective: "That’s my goal: to add muscle to look better, for myself if for no one else." So, in his world maybe isolation curls make more sense than chin-ups. Fine! Nothing wrong with that at all.

The problem comes when he makes assumptions about why "the vast majority" are lifting. Maybe a big chunk share his goals. However, I think the people on this forum mainly fall into the "weekend warrior" subcategory of "men taking their hobbies too seriously." For many of us, chin-ups will be better than isolation curls.

If we begin a conversation by asking "What is your goal?" we will get better results all around. Weekend warriors shouldn't have tried to get the author to drop curls; and he shouldn't try to get weekend warriors to stop doing chin-ups. Different goals demand different paths!



Pretty sure chin ups beat isolation curls for adding muscle and looking better anyway.
 
Chris Rice
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Total Posts: 623
08-26-21 12:30 PM - Post#912828    



  • Matt_T Said:
  • RupertC Said:
My feeling is that a good 95% of the BS about fitness comes because people make assumptions instead of asking what someone else's goals are.

This guy gets the first part right. He is totally upfront about his own objective: "That’s my goal: to add muscle to look better, for myself if for no one else." So, in his world maybe isolation curls make more sense than chin-ups. Fine! Nothing wrong with that at all.

The problem comes when he makes assumptions about why "the vast majority" are lifting. Maybe a big chunk share his goals. However, I think the people on this forum mainly fall into the "weekend warrior" subcategory of "men taking their hobbies too seriously." For many of us, chin-ups will be better than isolation curls.

If we begin a conversation by asking "What is your goal?" we will get better results all around. Weekend warriors shouldn't have tried to get the author to drop curls; and he shouldn't try to get weekend warriors to stop doing chin-ups. Different goals demand different paths!



Pretty sure chin ups beat isolation curls for adding muscle and looking better anyway.



But curls are more impressive to watch in the mirror :)
 
RupertC
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Total Posts: 1451
08-26-21 02:59 PM - Post#912830    



  • Matt_T Said:
  • RupertC Said:
My feeling is that a good 95% of the BS about fitness comes because people make assumptions instead of asking what someone else's goals are.

This guy gets the first part right. He is totally upfront about his own objective: "That’s my goal: to add muscle to look better, for myself if for no one else." So, in his world maybe isolation curls make more sense than chin-ups. Fine! Nothing wrong with that at all.

The problem comes when he makes assumptions about why "the vast majority" are lifting. Maybe a big chunk share his goals. However, I think the people on this forum mainly fall into the "weekend warrior" subcategory of "men taking their hobbies too seriously." For many of us, chin-ups will be better than isolation curls.

If we begin a conversation by asking "What is your goal?" we will get better results all around. Weekend warriors shouldn't have tried to get the author to drop curls; and he shouldn't try to get weekend warriors to stop doing chin-ups. Different goals demand different paths!



Pretty sure chin ups beat isolation curls for adding muscle and looking better anyway.



You've got to dance with the one who brung you, as they say in Texas... If the guy loves magazine bro splits and feels they meet his goals, why not let him do them in peace?
Check out my critical-thinking blog at sharpenyouraxe.substack.com


 
Jordan D
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Total Posts: 560
08-26-21 03:47 PM - Post#912831    



Too much sophistry, not enough philosophy:

“Everybody wannabe a bodybuilder…but don’t nobody wanna lift no heavy ass weight.”
 
Old Miler
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Total Posts: 1656
08-26-21 05:38 PM - Post#912834    



  • RupertC Said:
My feeling is that a good 95% of the BS about fitness comes because people make assumptions instead of asking what someone else's goals are.

This guy gets the first part right. He is totally upfront about his own objective: "That’s my goal: to add muscle to look better, for myself if for no one else."



I agree completely. On this forum and in many other places, people aged 50 and up genuinely seem to want to hang onto strength and power and movement skills, because they know they'll be able to do a lot more in everyday life 20 years further down the road, as well as right now.

When you get to a certain age, looking good naked becomes a slightly lower priority.

 
DanMartin
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Total Posts: 20523
08-26-21 07:16 PM - Post#912847    



  • Old Miler Said:
  • RupertC Said:
My feeling is that a good 95% of the BS about fitness comes because people make assumptions instead of asking what someone else's goals are.

This guy gets the first part right. He is totally upfront about his own objective: "That’s my goal: to add muscle to look better, for myself if for no one else."



I agree completely. On this forum and in many other places, people aged 50 and up genuinely seem to want to hang onto strength and power and movement skills, because they know they'll be able to do a lot more in everyday life 20 years further down the road, as well as right now.

When you get to a certain age, looking good naked becomes a slightly lower priority.





Even when I'm naked, I'm still performance oriented...
Mark it Zero.


 
DanMartin
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Total Posts: 20523
08-26-21 08:48 PM - Post#912848    



I powerlifted for 8 years straight. Which means I hit the weights three days a week most every week. During that time I gained 60 pounds and doubled my max lifts.

Would I do it again? I probably would. But I would do less. Meaning I probably would do a two-day-a-week of Squat/Bench, then Bench/Deadlift. If I did any assistance work it would be as needed and then stopped once the problem was solved. The three power lifts along with perhaps the bent-over barbell row are all that most need to propel their poundages higher. YMMV
Mark it Zero.


 
Dan John
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Total Posts: 12013
08-27-21 02:35 AM - Post#912851    



That's a good article. I like articles that make me sit back and go...hmmm. This one did.

I liked his point that he needed to lose 30 pounds and he has a bad shoulder and...

Sometimes, clarity is wonderful.
Daniel John
Just handing down what I was handed down...


Make a Difference.
Live. Love. Laugh.
Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude)
Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk.
Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth.
Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights.
Reread great books. Say thank you


 
Matt_T
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Total Posts: 211
08-27-21 04:53 AM - Post#912853    



  • RupertC Said:
  • Matt_T Said:
  • RupertC Said:
My feeling is that a good 95% of the BS about fitness comes because people make assumptions instead of asking what someone else's goals are.

This guy gets the first part right. He is totally upfront about his own objective: "That’s my goal: to add muscle to look better, for myself if for no one else." So, in his world maybe isolation curls make more sense than chin-ups. Fine! Nothing wrong with that at all.

The problem comes when he makes assumptions about why "the vast majority" are lifting. Maybe a big chunk share his goals. However, I think the people on this forum mainly fall into the "weekend warrior" subcategory of "men taking their hobbies too seriously." For many of us, chin-ups will be better than isolation curls.

If we begin a conversation by asking "What is your goal?" we will get better results all around. Weekend warriors shouldn't have tried to get the author to drop curls; and he shouldn't try to get weekend warriors to stop doing chin-ups. Different goals demand different paths!



Pretty sure chin ups beat isolation curls for adding muscle and looking better anyway.



You've got to dance with the one who brung you, as they say in Texas... If the guy loves magazine bro splits and feels they meet his goals, why not let him do them in peace?



Which is fine, except he makes the point himself about training in the most efficient way. The chin up must be the most efficient exercise there is.
 
Justin Jordan
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Total Posts: 750
08-27-21 08:34 AM - Post#912856    



Most people aren't going to get big biceps from doing chins.

If you want to look like a bodybuilder, train like one.

This thread has segued exactly into his point: attaching moral virtue to exercise rather than treating them like tools.
 
BrianBinVA
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Total Posts: 4691
Unexpected place for a pivot discussion
08-27-21 09:21 AM - Post#912857    



  • Justin Jordan Said:
Most people aren't going to get big biceps from doing chins.

If you want to look like a bodybuilder, train like one.

This thread has segued exactly into his point: attaching moral virtue to exercise rather than treating them like tools.



Bing.

(And for the record, I've been able to do 20+ dead hang chins multiple different times in my life, and I've never had big biceps. YMMV.)




Edited by BrianBinVA on 08-27-21 09:22 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
 
Jordan D
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Total Posts: 560
08-27-21 09:26 AM - Post#912858    



Jim Wendler posted this today, about his own pivot. Perhaps of interest:

https://www.jimwendler.com/blogs/jimwendler-com/ weight-vest-training-bett er-than-average
 
AAnnunz
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Total Posts: 24100
Unexpected place for a pivot discussion
08-27-21 10:12 AM - Post#912861    



  • Justin Jordan Said:
Most people aren't going to get big biceps from doing chins.

If you want to look like a bodybuilder, train like one....


I've experimented with this quite a bit and could beat the subject to death, but since this forum is more about minimalism and abbreviated training than building the biggest gunz in the neighborhood, I'll keep it short. On one hand, chances are someone who is not into bodybuilding probably will almost certainly put on size if he does max effort chins (especially weighted) every week for six to eight weeks, but they are not going to be as impressive as those built by a sequence of heavy barbell curls, incline DB curls, and concentration curls with at least one set of each taken to failure.
Be strong. Be in shape. Be a man among men, regardless of your age or circumstances.




Edited by AAnnunz on 08-27-21 10:27 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
 
BrianBinVA
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Total Posts: 4691
08-27-21 10:22 AM - Post#912862    



  • Jordan D Said:
Jim Wendler posted this today, about his own pivot. Perhaps of interest:

https://www.jimwendler.com/blogs/jimwendler-com/ weight-vest-training-bett er-than-average



This is also a good article.

I don't think the point of either this one or the original article posted in this thread is to bash barbell training, but rather that at different points in life, it helps to re-assess what you are doing, and think about whether your previously-held idea of what constitutes "being awesome" still matches your life.

And of course, moral superiority and doctrinaire thinking in fitness are definitely not limited to those who enjoy powerlifting training. Kettlebell zealots are very zealous indeed. As are bodyweight proselytizers, runner's high addicts, and folks who spend six hours every Sunday in a bike saddle, among many others.

The simple takeaway from both articles ought to be that if you can avoid dogmatic thinking in all areas of your life, including fitness and physical pursuits, you're likely going to be better off.


 
Justin Jordan
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Total Posts: 750
Re: Unexpected place for a pivot discussion
08-27-21 11:09 AM - Post#912863    



  • AAnnunz Said:
  • Justin Jordan Said:
Most people aren't going to get big biceps from doing chins.

If you want to look like a bodybuilder, train like one....


I've experimented with this quite a bit and could beat the subject to death, but since this forum is more about minimalism and abbreviated training than building the biggest gunz in the neighborhood, I'll keep it short. On one hand, chances are someone who is not into bodybuilding probably will almost certainly put on size if he does max effort chins (especially weighted) every week for six to eight weeks, but they are not going to be as impressive as those built by a sequence of heavy barbell curls, incline DB curls, and concentration curls with at least one set of each taken to failure.



This has been my observation, too.

If you want to get SUOPERSWOLE7000 it's NOT chins or curls, it's chins AND curls.


Edited by Justin Jordan on 08-27-21 11:11 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
 
AAnnunz
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Total Posts: 24100
Re: Unexpected place for a pivot discussion
08-27-21 12:42 PM - Post#912867    



  • Justin Jordan Said:
  • AAnnunz Said:
  • Justin Jordan Said:
Most people aren't going to get big biceps from doing chins.

If you want to look like a bodybuilder, train like one....


I've experimented with this quite a bit and could beat the subject to death, but since this forum is more about minimalism and abbreviated training than building the biggest gunz in the neighborhood, I'll keep it short. On one hand, chances are someone who is not into bodybuilding probably will almost certainly put on size if he does max effort chins (especially weighted) every week for six to eight weeks, but they are not going to be as impressive as those built by a sequence of heavy barbell curls, incline DB curls, and concentration curls with at least one set of each taken to failure.



This has been my observation, too.

If you want to get SUOPERSWOLE7000 it's NOT chins or curls, it's chins AND curls.



Oh yea! Don't tell anyone, but admittedly, I've been known to do a bro split cycle to tune in the beach bod each year. Always include chins on back day, then three types of curls on arm day (supersetted with tris, of course).
Be strong. Be in shape. Be a man among men, regardless of your age or circumstances.


 
Matt_T
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Total Posts: 211
Re: Unexpected place for a pivot discussion
08-27-21 12:46 PM - Post#912868    



  • BrianBinVA Said:
  • Justin Jordan Said:
Most people aren't going to get big biceps from doing chins.

If you want to look like a bodybuilder, train like one.

This thread has segued exactly into his point: attaching moral virtue to exercise rather than treating them like tools.



Bing.

(And for the record, I've been able to do 20+ dead hang chins multiple different times in my life, and I've never had big biceps. YMMV.)



Bet you weren't eating to bulk up and dangling a bunch weight around your waist then.
 
Matt_T
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Total Posts: 211
08-27-21 12:53 PM - Post#912870    



  • Justin Jordan Said:
Most people aren't going to get big biceps from doing chins.

If you want to look like a bodybuilder, train like one.

This thread has segued exactly into his point: attaching moral virtue to exercise rather than treating them like tools.



Funny how 90% of people I see training like bodybuilders don't look like bodybuilders. Mostly they are using a mop (bicep curls) to try and get shredded (hammering a nail into a wall).
 
Pepper
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Total Posts: 262
08-27-21 01:13 PM - Post#912871    



  • Matt_T Said:

Funny how 90% of people I see training like bodybuilders don't look like bodybuilders. Mostly they are using a mop (bicep curls) to try and get shredded (hammering a nail into a wall).




That's because they probably don't really train like bodybuilders. I see few people do 20-rep squat orgies, etc. at the gym.
 
Jordan D
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Total Posts: 560
08-27-21 01:44 PM - Post#912872    



The problem is that people confuse tools with sports.

Weights are a tool. Powerlifting, bodybuilding, all the rest, are sports.

Sports are their own goal. But if employing weights, running, or whatever as a tool, one needs to clarify their own goal or standards. But that’s not easy, because developing your own goal or standards is a solo endeavor, and the tribal call of a sporting community is more enticing for most. The implicit goal isn’t self-development there, but being part of a community of people who model a way of living.

I watch these powerlifters in my gym. They’re cartoon characters, eating chalk, chilling in lawn chairs for 15 minutes between sets, and not a one of them is sniffing any higher than 40% of a world record. But they love it. It’s a hobby. A collective identity. That’s fine. Weights are the tool. The goal is implied. And for 99% of people, that’s enough. If anything, it’s probably more effective than hiring a personal trainer.

So, whatever man. We’ve all been idiots in the gym. The only real mistakes are giving up and thinking there’s one true “way.”
 
Justin Jordan
*
Total Posts: 750
Unexpected place for a pivot discussion
08-27-21 01:59 PM - Post#912873    



  • Matt_T Said:
  • Justin Jordan Said:
Most people aren't going to get big biceps from doing chins.

If you want to look like a bodybuilder, train like one.

This thread has segued exactly into his point: attaching moral virtue to exercise rather than treating them like tools.



Funny how 90% of people I see training like bodybuilders don't look like bodybuilders. Mostly they are using a mop (bicep curls) to try and get shredded (hammering a nail into a wall).





Sure, and people that train like powerlifters but badly also don't get results.

But bodybuilding, with or without drugs, is a mature sport*, as are powerlifting and O lifting. Mature in this sense means "Has existed a long time and has sieved a lot of people through the training process"

IF weighted chins were generally the best way to get biceps, you'd see very few curls in bodybuilding programs.

But bodybuilders do curls. And laterals. And flyes.

And compound exercises too.

Note: I have not done curls in any real way in 25 years, and I do pulldowns and rows a couple times a week.

But if wanted BUFFGUNZZZ I'd bust out direct arm work.

*Well, competitive activity anyway.

Edited by Justin Jordan on 08-27-21 01:59 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
 
DanMartin
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Total Posts: 20523
08-27-21 02:45 PM - Post#912874    



My biceps and triceps were hardly noteworthy (and they never were...) when I did my endless sets of curls and tricep press downs.

However, when I started to squat and deadlift heavy (for me) and do heavy (once again, heavy for me) bench presses, barbell rows and E-Z curl bar bent-arm pullovers my arms started to fill out.
Mark it Zero.


 
Browser
*
Total Posts: 506
08-27-21 03:34 PM - Post#912875    



I competed in a couple of novice bodybuilding shows in the late 90s. If someone wants to be a real bodybuilder I believe that some basic level of strength on the big lifts is necessary to have something to build from. Especially for natural non-druggies. But that base level is not that high, especially compared to competitive strength sports. Something like a 1.5bw bench, 1.75bw squat, 2bw deadlift. The benefit vs. injury risk starts to diminish quickly past that.

The biggest problem I see though with people who want to get big and/or strong is the unwillingness to gain even an ounce of bodyweight or bodyfat. They never get anywhere.
"The trouble about always trying to preserve the health of the body is that it is so difficult to do without destroying the health of the mind."~GK Chesterton


 
Matt_T
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Total Posts: 211
Re: Unexpected place for a pivot discussion
08-27-21 04:48 PM - Post#912876    



  • Justin Jordan Said:
  • Matt_T Said:
  • Justin Jordan Said:
Most people aren't going to get big biceps from doing chins.

If you want to look like a bodybuilder, train like one.

This thread has segued exactly into his point: attaching moral virtue to exercise rather than treating them like tools.



Funny how 90% of people I see training like bodybuilders don't look like bodybuilders. Mostly they are using a mop (bicep curls) to try and get shredded (hammering a nail into a wall).





Sure, and people that train like powerlifters but badly also don't get results.

But bodybuilding, with or without drugs, is a mature sport*, as are powerlifting and O lifting. Mature in this sense means "Has existed a long time and has sieved a lot of people through the training process"

IF weighted chins were generally the best way to get biceps, you'd see very few curls in bodybuilding programs.

But bodybuilders do curls. And laterals. And flyes.

And compound exercises too.

Note: I have not done curls in any real way in 25 years, and I do pulldowns and rows a couple times a week.

But if wanted BUFFGUNZZZ I'd bust out direct arm work.

*Well, competitive activity anyway.



Still don't buy it. Why do all these people doing these exercises once a week have small arms then? As opposed to say the collision athlete pictured in that article whose programme exclusively chins by the sound of it. Extreme example I know but still.
 
Matt_T
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Total Posts: 211
08-27-21 05:14 PM - Post#912877    



  • Pepper Said:
  • Matt_T Said:

Funny how 90% of people I see training like bodybuilders don't look like bodybuilders. Mostly they are using a mop (bicep curls) to try and get shredded (hammering a nail into a wall).




That's because they probably don't really train like bodybuilders. I see few people do 20-rep squat orgies, etc. at the gym.



Like a powerlifter might, you mean?
 
Matt_T
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Total Posts: 211
08-27-21 05:25 PM - Post#912878    



Point of order having re-read the original article. At no point does he specifically mention his guns. He mentions looking good and adding mass, I'd struggle to hear from someone who hasn't found chins have put plenty of meat on their back and wings based on my borderline hard gainer experience.
 
Browser
*
Total Posts: 506
08-27-21 06:05 PM - Post#912879    



  • Jordan D Said:
Jim Wendler posted this today, about his own pivot. Perhaps of interest:

https://www.jimwendler.com/blogs/jimwendler-com/ weight-vest-training-bett er-than-average



Just read this and dammit it gave me the feels. This is going to happen to me one day, perhaps very soon. I’m going to go to lift and just be done. I’ve been thinking about quitting powerlifting and losing weight for over a year. I just don’t know what I would do with myself. Maybe something like Jim posted here. I like Dan’s snatch / clean & jerk / walk program too. Had another crappy deadlift workout today so now I’m going to have two martinis and watch Seinfeld.
"The trouble about always trying to preserve the health of the body is that it is so difficult to do without destroying the health of the mind."~GK Chesterton


 
AusDaz
*
Total Posts: 3561
08-27-21 06:59 PM - Post#912881    



  • Jordan D Said:
The problem is that people confuse tools with sports.

Weights are a tool. Powerlifting, bodybuilding, all the rest, are sports.

Sports are their own goal. But if employing weights, running, or whatever as a tool, one needs to clarify their own goal or standards.



This a great point!

As DJ says if the discus goes further, then what ever you did worked. In power lifting or oly lifting, if you lift more, then whatever you did worked.

But for other sports, the relationship between weights and performance isn’t direct or linear. For example, If you squat more, do you cycle better? Up to a point probably. Until the time and recovery cost of squatting more starts to detract from your cycling performance.

And for “life”, what is the relationship between weights and performance? Is a heavy low bar back squat and a big deadlift best because “strong people are more useful and harder to kill”. Or is a good prying goblet squat and a naked getup going to be more useful?

Perhaps this is the time to bust out that hierarchy I stole from someone on a thread here: sustainable, doable, optimal.

For most people, finding something, anything that they enjoy doing and will do sustainably for months or years is priority 1. Maybe then they bump up a level to something that is hard but doable for 6-8 weeks or so before an event. Optimal is in the rear view mirror, if it was ever a realistic goal.

But everyone wants to start at optimal. Are chins or curls or both optimal for arm development? Are heavy compound lifts or isolation exercises optimal for muscle mass?

It’s irrelevant if they aren’t going to do it for longer than 3-4 weeks anyway.

After a certain age, sustainable is optimal. Whatever that looks like for whatever you’re dealing with.
 
Justin Jordan
*
Total Posts: 750
Re: Unexpected place for a pivot discussion
08-27-21 07:37 PM - Post#912883    



  • Matt_T Said:
  • Justin Jordan Said:
  • Matt_T Said:
  • Justin Jordan Said:
Most people aren't going to get big biceps from doing chins.

If you want to look like a bodybuilder, train like one.

This thread has segued exactly into his point: attaching moral virtue to exercise rather than treating them like tools.



Funny how 90% of people I see training like bodybuilders don't look like bodybuilders. Mostly they are using a mop (bicep curls) to try and get shredded (hammering a nail into a wall).





Sure, and people that train like powerlifters but badly also don't get results.

But bodybuilding, with or without drugs, is a mature sport*, as are powerlifting and O lifting. Mature in this sense means "Has existed a long time and has sieved a lot of people through the training process"

IF weighted chins were generally the best way to get biceps, you'd see very few curls in bodybuilding programs.

But bodybuilders do curls. And laterals. And flyes.

And compound exercises too.

Note: I have not done curls in any real way in 25 years, and I do pulldowns and rows a couple times a week.

But if wanted BUFFGUNZZZ I'd bust out direct arm work.

*Well, competitive activity anyway.



Still don't buy it. Why do all these people doing these exercises once a week have small arms then? As opposed to say the collision athlete pictured in that article whose programme exclusively chins by the sound of it. Extreme example I know but still.




Yes why does an incredibly gifted world class athlete who does bodyweight exercise at insane volume get better results than a dude bro faffing around at the gym?

Such a mystery.
 
iPood
*
Total Posts: 2227
Unexpected place for a pivot discussion
08-28-21 06:36 AM - Post#912888    



  • AusDaz Said:
Perhaps this is the time to bust out that hierarchy I stole from someone on a thread here: sustainable, doable, optimal.



- Optimal: no longer a concern.

- Doable: maybe once or twice a year. A challenge of sorts to spice things up.

- Sustainable: this is where I’ve been at for over a decade.

To which I would add a fourth category: fun.

If it’s not fun, I don’t care about anything else.

At this point in my life, I don’t even care if I can’t get anywhere as long as I’m having a good time doing it.

First and foremost fun, then sustainable. That’s it for me.
"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness
and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums.
It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable.
Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow.
Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't."

Dan Martin




Edited by iPood on 08-28-21 06:38 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
 
AAnnunz
*
Total Posts: 24100
Unexpected place for a pivot discussion
08-28-21 10:32 AM - Post#912889    



  • Browser Said:
  • Jordan D Said:
Jim Wendler posted this today, about his own pivot. Perhaps of interest:

https://www.jimwendler.com/blogs/jimwendler-com/ weight-vest-training-bett er-than-average



Just read this and dammit it gave me the feels. This is going to happen to me one day, perhaps very soon. I’m going to go to lift and just be done. I’ve been thinking about quitting powerlifting and losing weight for over a year. I just don’t know what I would do with myself. Maybe something like Jim posted here. I like Dan’s snatch / clean & jerk / walk program too. Had another crappy deadlift workout today so now I’m going to have two martinis and watch Seinfeld.


LOL. Hey, don't forget Brandon Lilly, who also abandoned the sport and started his own cult of kettlebell circuiteers. A few of my gym mates are onboard. I joined them during the lockdown, then cycled back & forth between the circuits and my goto powerlifting-bodybuilding routines until I was forced into DMPM mode before my surgery.

That middle road is something you might consider, rather than abandoning powerlifting altogether. It's the route I plan to take as my ancient body continues to balk at every effort to be strong and jacked.
Be strong. Be in shape. Be a man among men, regardless of your age or circumstances.




Edited by AAnnunz on 08-29-21 09:32 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
 
Andy Mitchell
*
Total Posts: 5214
08-28-21 07:59 PM - Post#912894    



Come on, everyone has been through the process
The (wiedertype) bodybuilding routine that did actually build considerable strength and size, so you did more and more the the hard work you did was not sustainable hello powerlifters the work was less but it was harder training but as powerlifters look at reducing ROM, low back and busted shoulders appear.

The idea that working out is a very personal thing, and a pursuit of health and mobility never entered your mind until you got hurt.

But now “working hard” on a few select exercises that “work” (for you) is now where it’s at.

Ain’t life grand
Nice legs-shame about the face


 
Andy Mitchell
*
Total Posts: 5214
Unexpected place for a pivot discussion
08-28-21 08:09 PM - Post#912895    



I consider myself a pretty social bloke no more or no less than any other but when it comes to training I do it alone, prefer to be on my own, that’s my time, no distractions I put on music but can’t hear it in the process my soul focus in that twenty to thirty minutes is bust my gut going to my limit finding the limit, strange days ahead gotta be the best you can be.

I don’t need no crossfit, powerlifters and such but appreciate them a lot.
Nice legs-shame about the face




Edited by Andy Mitchell on 08-29-21 12:26 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
 
Jordan D
*
Total Posts: 560
08-28-21 09:48 PM - Post#912896    



  • Andy Mitchell Said:
The idea that working out is a very personal thing, and a pursuit of health and mobility never entered your mind until you got hurt.




Damn. That hit hard.

Post of the year.
 
Kyle Aaron
*
Total Posts: 1832
Unexpected place for a pivot discussion
08-29-21 03:00 AM - Post#912897    



  • BrianBinVA Said:
I don't think the point of either this one or the original article posted in this thread is to bash barbell training, but rather that at different points in life, it helps to re-assess what you are doing, and think about whether your previously-held idea of what constitutes "being awesome" still matches your life.


An important point.

I've mentioned before the way I see it. Physical training can change how you look, feel and perform. Looks are subjective and change by fashion so let's set them aside.

Performance is not really an issue for 99% of the population, it doesn't matter how hard most train they're never going to be world class. Obviously it's fun to compete anyway, and it can be good to help keep you going through lots of boring training. Still, most of us will never go anywhere with it. Everyone likes to talk about performance, that's where the glory is, but let's be honest with ourselves.

That leaves health. The other stuff comes after.

Training for a lifetime of health would be one of two things. Either: anything you like, but you never push it - literally never go above 80% max. Never. Because it's not barbells or running or whatever that messes most people up, it's pushing hard with them.

As for results - let's face it, if you do it consistently for 10 years, you'll be alright. 10 years of gymnastics? Pretty good. 10 years of powerlifting? Pretty good. 10 years of martial arts? Also good. After 10 years it'll all be the same.

Most people are not consistent for long enough to either get really good results, or get hurt.

So - for health, be consistent for 10 years and never go past 80% of max.

Or... if you do want to push it, then -

Childhood - play
Adolescence - sports, calisthenics
Young adult - weightlifting
Mature adult - powerlifting
Older adult - bodybuilding

But I've also said: whatever you're doing should be for no more than 3 lots of 3 month terms each year, and the 4th term is something different.

You were doing powerlifting? Cool, now do kettlebells. You were doing soccer? Great, now do some running. And so on. Then you can push for some of those 3 terms, and the 4th term off will refresh you, help you go back to the old stuff with some new ideas and having actually missed it.

But if you're not pushing it... honestly, I don't think it matters a lot which tool you use. Just be consistent for 10 years.

Like that thing we were talking about a while back with Prince Phillip, his simple bodyweight stuff he did every day. Brought him up to doing well into his 90s. I mean... if you just did a dozen unloaded goblet squats and went for a half-hour walk every day, you'd probably never need a walking frame.
Athletic Club East
Strength in numbers




Edited by Kyle Aaron on 08-29-21 03:01 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
 
Andy Mitchell
*
Total Posts: 5214
08-29-21 04:46 AM - Post#912898    



  • Jordan D Said:
The problem is that people confuse tools with sports.

Weights are a tool. Powerlifting, bodybuilding, all the rest, are sports.

Sports are their own goal. But if employing weights, running, or whatever as a tool, one needs to clarify their own goal or standards. But that’s not easy, because developing your own goal or standards is a solo endeavor, and the tribal call of a sporting community is more enticing for most. The implicit goal isn’t self-development there, but being part of a community of people who model a way of living.

I watch these powerlifters in my gym. They’re cartoon characters, eating chalk, chilling in lawn chairs for 15 minutes between sets, and not a one of them is sniffing any higher than 40% of a world record. But they love it. It’s a hobby. A collective identity. That’s fine. Weights are the tool. The goal is implied. And for 99% of people, that’s enough. If anything, it’s probably more effective than hiring a personal trainer.

So, whatever man. We’ve all been idiots in the gym. The only real mistakes are giving up and thinking there’s one true “way.”



Nice
Nice legs-shame about the face


 
BrianBinVA
*
Total Posts: 4691
Unexpected place for a pivot discussion
08-29-21 09:46 AM - Post#912904    



  • Jordan D Said:
  • Andy Mitchell Said:
The idea that working out is a very personal thing, and a pursuit of health and mobility never entered your mind until you got hurt.




Damn. That hit hard.

Post of the year.




Very good point, Andy.

I would just build on this by noting that it doesn't have to be that you got hurt. Getting hurt is often a catalyst, but this type of reconsideration can be prompted by many things, including, but not limited to, having a child (or a second or third child) or seeing someone close to you get sick or struggle with health issues that could likely have been mitigated, if not outright prevented (see, e.g., Kyle's reference to walking frames).

These types of life events that are technically unrelated to training tend to point up how little it matters, for example, what your max squat is.




Edited by BrianBinVA on 08-29-21 09:47 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
 
Jordan Derksen
*
Total Posts: 275
Unexpected place for a pivot discussion
08-30-21 08:48 AM - Post#912917    



I can agree with that Brian. My first real training break came with my first child. Didn’t work out for 8 weeks. Over the 3 years since his birth I’ve taken more 2-6 week breaks.

It’s eye opening when you start taking breaks and doing less - less volume, less intensity, less frequency, all of it - and ultimately suffer no ill effects in daily life. Really, the surprising part is when things get better. Better sleep, better mood, less aches and pains. The other eye opener came when, during one of these breaks, I got significantly faster and quicker while playing hockey. Then one asks, if the heavy weights aren't even making me better at sports why bother... especially if it's holding you back.

The only thing that tends to change for the worse is how you look.

I had another aha moment this last weekend. I haven’t really trained with weights much lately and frequency/intensity has been low. 2 days a week maybe and most of the summer was doing armor of war body weight stuff. My gym lifts are way down. It’s embarrassing. Demo’d the bathroom this weekend. Ripped out an old metal tub and cut out the old moldy walls. I swear the tub was 1/16 or 3/32 sheet metal. I had to cut it in half with an angle grinder but my disc ran outta steam with a few inches to go. I had enough room to wiggle it loose. Yanked it out all in one piece cause the bottom bracketing held it all together and carried it to the trailer. My pregnant wife commented how nice it was that I was strong cause there’s no way she could help me in her current state. After I dumped it in the trailer and my wife made her comment it got me thinking… I’ve lost a lot of ‘gym’ strength, but I can’t think of a single situation in everyday life where I feel less strong than I used to be. If anything, maybe stronger because I’m more mobile. Since someone posted in a previous thread the last week and a bit has been Steve Maxwells daily dozen every single day except once. Wow. It’s made a bigger difference than any other mobility thing I’ve tried. But there’s that bit where it’s been consistent, and that’s easily the most important part.

That Jim wendler thing, that speaks my language right now. Just the basics, mostly body weight. I like it. To use that to jump onto the chins vs curls comment I think it’s really body dependent. Chins and rows gave me arms where nothing else did. Not that mine were ever huge though. Curls never did much. This whole thread: find what works for you. You tend to enjoy what works for you so they are usually one and the same. That’s where I’m at. What do I actually *want* to do.


 
BrianBinVA
*
Total Posts: 4691
Re: Unexpected place for a pivot discussion
08-30-21 10:42 AM - Post#912919    



  • Jordan Derksen Said:
I can agree with that Brian. My first real training break came with my first child. Didn’t work out for 8 weeks. Over the 3 years since his birth I’ve taken more 2-6 week breaks.

It’s eye opening when you start taking breaks and doing less - less volume, less intensity, less frequency, all of it - and ultimately suffer no ill effects in daily life. Really, the surprising part is when things get better. Better sleep, better mood, less aches and pains. The other eye opener came when, during one of these breaks, I got significantly faster and quicker while playing hockey. Then one asks, if the heavy weights aren't even making me better at sports why bother... especially if it's holding you back.

The only thing that tends to change for the worse is how you look.

I had another aha moment this last weekend. I haven’t really trained with weights much lately and frequency/intensity has been low. 2 days a week maybe and most of the summer was doing armor of war body weight stuff. My gym lifts are way down. It’s embarrassing. Demo’d the bathroom this weekend. Ripped out an old metal tub and cut out the old moldy walls. I swear the tub was 1/16 or 3/32 sheet metal. I had to cut it in half with an angle grinder but my disc ran outta steam with a few inches to go. I had enough room to wiggle it loose. Yanked it out all in one piece cause the bottom bracketing held it all together and carried it to the trailer. My pregnant wife commented how nice it was that I was strong cause there’s no way she could help me in her current state. After I dumped it in the trailer and my wife made her comment it got me thinking… I’ve lost a lot of ‘gym’ strength, but I can’t think of a single situation in everyday life where I feel less strong than I used to be. If anything, maybe stronger because I’m more mobile. Since someone posted in a previous thread the last week and a bit has been Steve Maxwells daily dozen every single day except once. Wow. It’s made a bigger difference than any other mobility thing I’ve tried. But there’s that bit where it’s been consistent, and that’s easily the most important part.

That Jim wendler thing, that speaks my language right now. Just the basics, mostly body weight. I like it. To use that to jump onto the chins vs curls comment I think it’s really body dependent. Chins and rows gave me arms where nothing else did. Not that mine were ever huge though. Curls never did much. This whole thread: find what works for you. You tend to enjoy what works for you so they are usually one and the same. That’s where I’m at. What do I actually *want* to do.



Good deal, Jordan, and this brings up another point about lifting for a lifetime and pivoting, and that is that while lifting and getting strong is truly a great thing and improves your life in many ways, for the overwhelming majority of people, once you reach a certain strength level, getting to a higher level doesn't improve your life. At that point, "merely" holding the level you have achieved is a great goal, and leaves time and energy for other things. I am not sure what that level is, and probably no one has exact numbers, but I'd be willing to bet it is a lot lower than most dedicated lifters think.




Edited by BrianBinVA on 08-30-21 10:49 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
 
Kyle Aaron
*
Total Posts: 1832
Unexpected place for a pivot discussion
08-30-21 07:57 PM - Post#912931    



Jordan, Brian - that's why I have my concept of the % of world records. You've heard it before but I like saying it so just stop reading now.

As an approximation, the 25% bands - shit, suck, good and great.

For health? Just don't be shit. I like to measure strength, endurance and explosiveness. You could choose a lot of things, but some things like marathon distance require a lot of training, and some like snatches have a high skill component. So I look at deadlift, 5km, and standing broad jump.

The records in these for a middleweight (63kg) woman are 221kg, 14'07" and 3m. For (83kg) men it's 331kg, 12'36" and 4m. Obviously if you're bigger you'll be able to lift more, but the run and jump will be not as good; if you're lighter you can run more, but the strength will drop back.

Okay, think about someone going from being sedentary. If they've always been active and were on the state team for their sport at 14, that's different. I'm thinking about the average sedentary person who starts being active and doesn't have any real talent or some burning passion for a sport.

25% world record would mean a person deadlifting their bodyweight, walking 5km in 50-55', and jumping about a metre. If you can't do that, you either have health problems now, or you are going to be developing them in the next few years. Basically this is just the typical sedentary Westerner, who does in fact have health problems today and tomorrow.

50% would be deadlifting twice bodyweight, doing a 5km jog in 25-30', and jumping 1.5-2m. This is a person who's active, and it doesn't require athletic talent to do - just don't be underweight or obese, don't get injured, and keep training. Heaps of people will hit 1 of these 3 numbers just with a few months of training up from sedentary, at least if they start before 50yo. Not many people go from sedentary to hitting all 3, that takes some focus and good programming, some good consistency.

75% really you're only going to do in one area unless you're a professional athlete. Not many people are going to go from sedentary to deadlifting triple bodyweight, or run 5km in under 20', or jump 2.25-3m. If you do all 3 then you're not reading this because you're busy doing endorsements for sports gear and powders.

That 25-50% zone is about as much as anyone's going to need for everyday life and health. If you push further than that, it's for fun - but there may be a price. For most people that's just injuries, but a trainer friend of mine told me about his client who broke up with his fiancee because he wanted to focus on becoming a competitive strongman. He decided to pay the price. I think DJ said something about "balance"?
Athletic Club East
Strength in numbers




Edited by Kyle Aaron on 08-30-21 07:59 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
 
BrianBinVA
*
Total Posts: 4691
08-30-21 08:37 PM - Post#912933    



We may have seen variations on it before, Kyle, but thanks for typing it out -- always appreciated.

I try to live in the 50%, and generally, "don't be shit" is a decent way to approach most things.


 
AAnnunz
*
Total Posts: 24100
08-30-21 08:46 PM - Post#912934    



For those of you who are not middle weights and/or age 40 and over and want to see which of Kyle's zones your deadlift would put you, plug in your age division and weight class:

https://www.openpowerlifting.org/rankings/raw/82.5/40-44/by-deadlift
Be strong. Be in shape. Be a man among men, regardless of your age or circumstances.


 
Kyle Aaron
*
Total Posts: 1832
Unexpected place for a pivot discussion
08-30-21 11:34 PM - Post#912940    



  • BrianBinVA Said:

I try to live in the 50%, and generally, "don't be shit" is a decent way to approach most things.


I think so. You know, there are studies about income vs happiness, past a certain amount it doesn't do much. The guy who is homeless and gets a minimum wage job is much, much happier. If he can double, definitely happier. Double it again? Somewhat happier. Again? Meh. 25% of the US households live on $34k or less. 50%, $68k. Obviously it depends on where you live, but I think in the US if your whole household together is on $34k you're probably having a difficult life, yeah? Stresses build up, maybe you argue with your spouse, your kids miss out on some things they need... So... maybe just don't be in the bottom quarter of income?

And then, if your kid is just not the bottom quarter of the class... if you're not the bottom quarter of your social circles and community connections... and... well, you get the picture.

Some people have difficult lives, they just get stuff thrown at them. Those things we can control, we should.
Athletic Club East
Strength in numbers




Edited by Kyle Aaron on 08-30-21 11:35 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
 
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