GeoffreyLevens
Total Posts: 357
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05-13-20 12:33 PM - Post#897980
At age 70, if I kick my ego to the curb and realistically asses my goals, what's top of the list is avoiding decrepitude! That and not getting injured.
So question--is Easy (Even Easier) Strength still appropriate?
Or due to "inevitable" or at least threatened loss of muscle, would some sort of park bench style, Easy Hypertrophy be more appropriate? And if so, what would that look like? Same general format but a bit lower weight/higher reps? Or?
Edited by GeoffreyLevens on 05-13-20 12:33 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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vegpedlr
Total Posts: 1179
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05-13-20 02:06 PM - Post#897984
I think it’s fitting. My 78 yr old dad likes it done every other day. The only issue I can see is that it doesn’t really address hypertrophy. ES combined with plenty of mobility practice would be effective aging IMO.
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GeoffreyLevens
Total Posts: 357
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05-13-20 03:47 PM - Post#897986
Thanks! The hypertrophy (and its opposite) are my biggest concerns really.
I do some balance work almost daily, joint rotation/flows, and very light TGU's. Can't do overhead pulls for some reason they really light up one shoulder joint in a very bad way. Ab wheel I can do oddly enough but pull ups nope. KB snatches are also a no go. Still leaves plenty though. And trap bar dl's sort of cover both hinge and squat pattern esp since I'm using stacks of 25 pound plates and low handles so "technically" several inches deficit.
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Mr. Kent
Total Posts: 583
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05-13-20 04:39 PM - Post#897990
There's an excellent thread on this board titled "Is there a program that teaches you how to get off the floor?" covering how to protect oneself against aging with exercise. You might find some good ideas there, but to answer your question ES is great in the sense that it's a way to get work in without beating yourself up.
https://www.davedraper.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/36977/
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Old Miler
Total Posts: 1744
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05-13-20 04:46 PM - Post#897991
You don't mention any cardio. You could consider easy strength plus some bike work, rowing or steep hill walking if you have one near you.
I saw some medical article on muscle wastage that showed a scan cross-section through the thigh of a 70-year-old triathlete, and a middle-aged sedentary office worker. The triathlete had about ten times the thigh muscle. Classic hypertrophy weight training may be the best way to grow muscle, but not the only way.
Interestingly I went to see my mum and dad today - staying a few metres apart! - they are 78 and living in a countryside retirement community.
He was always very active but never did "fitness" in any systematic way consistently until last year. What's he's hit on now is a 3-mile walk each day in the fields with the dog, and a 3-mile hilly loop that he does on his bike as fast as possible, again daily. He seems about 5 years younger than a year ago. It just seems like such a simple way to use all major lower body muscles, heart, and have some fun too.
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DanMartin
Total Posts: 20705
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Steve Rogers
Total Posts: 6158
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05-13-20 09:49 PM - Post#898001
At 69 I'm a little behind you and I think Easy Strength is an appropriate way to train, with the addition of some easy endurance work. It's important to watch recovery but the easy endurance work can help with this.
| "Coyote is always waiting, and Coyote is always hungry." |
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iPood
Total Posts: 2360
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05-14-20 01:19 AM - Post#898003
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think good, old-school bodybuilding is most appropriate for the older trainee.
You know... machines, isolation exercises, dumbbells and barbells, following a higher rep scheme with lighter loads.
"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness
and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums.
It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable.
Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow.
Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't."
Dan Martin |
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jamej
Total Posts: 510
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05-14-20 07:28 AM - Post#898009
63 here, pull a weight sled, no spinal compression, almost no way to get hurt, can work upper body too.
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Steve Rogers
Total Posts: 6158
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05-14-20 07:37 AM - Post#898010
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think good, old-school bodybuilding is most appropriate for the older trainee.
You know... machines, isolation exercises, dumbbells and barbells, following a higher rep scheme with lighter loads.
While this is fine for many and and likely ideal for some, you overgeneralize "the older trainee". We're all individuals and in the end the best training it that which we will do.
| "Coyote is always waiting, and Coyote is always hungry." |
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Kyle Aaron
Total Posts: 1911
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05-14-20 08:03 AM - Post#898014
The only issue I can see is that it doesn’t really address hypertrophy.
He's 70. Hypertrophy will be limited in any case.
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jold
Total Posts: 59
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05-14-20 08:28 AM - Post#898016
DMPM always makes sense. However, right now I'm enjoying 3 sets of 8 with a one minute rest between sets. I'm not using the full body exercises in the original "Transformation Program". I'm doing bench, curl, rack pull, & bent over row. I'm taking care of legs by walking stadium steps 2 - 3 times a week. The workouts are quick and I'm recovering pretty well from each workout. I'm 64. Always lots of good advice here. Pick something that makes sense to you and looks enjoyable and repeatable...and go.
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AAnnunz
Total Posts: 24932
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Hey Geoffrey,
I'm 74 and have been through EES a half dozen times. As written, it is an excellent program for increasing strength, especially for setting rep PRs, but it needs to be modified if your goal is hypertrophy.
EES, as presented in Intervention, helped me realize the value of a functional, full body -- squat/hinge/push/pull/car ry -- routine, and I now integrate or cycle the protocol with powerlifting or bodybuilding splits. After a lot of experimentation, I found the following best for hypertrophy:
• Train 3 nonconsecutive days a week.
• Do 3 to 5 (progressive) sets of 8-12 reps for each movement.
• Take your work set(s) to 1 or 2 reps short of failure.
• Optional: Add 1 or 2 isolation movements for weak bodyparts. (Two sets of 15-20 reps for leg curls and face pulls work great for my lagging hammies and rear delts.)
• If you can, include forward and backward sled drags in your weighted carry rotation. If you don't need time off, you can use the sled for active recovery on your off days. (Sled work was a game changer for me.)
By the way, I'd make these recommendations to the younger guys, too, except I'd tell them to take their final set to positive failure.
| Be strong. Be in shape. Be a man among men, regardless of your age or circumstances. |
Edited by AAnnunz on 05-14-20 10:11 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Jordan D
Total Posts: 771
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05-14-20 09:45 AM - Post#898018
My old man is 70 and deeply enjoys Easy Strength. Or at least he did before the gyms shut down. Deadlift, pushups, hanging, goblet squats, and farmer walks. He refuses to eat to support it though.
Now my 70 year old mother is doing an abbreviated DMPM and Original Strength routine 5 days a week, and grumbling every time. Really I’d just be happy if she’d progress the goblet squat and passive hang.
I just wish they’d eat more. That’s the true battle.
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GeoffreyLevens
Total Posts: 357
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WOW! I blinked and there's a whole thread developed. Thank you all!
I do mobility work daily including some single foot balance stuff and light TGU's as warm up.
Cardio-I have walked 2-3 miles at "brisk pace" daily for several years and continue to, rain, snow, sleet, blazing sun, just get out there and do it.
I don't really have access to machines. Could rig up some sort of sled but no room in small apartment to do it indoors and where I live there are about 6 or 7 months/year where it would not be likely outdoors unless of the Tough Mudder mentality.
Funny, AAnnunz suggestion (below) is close to what I've been doing for a few months though I have been doing short, intense intervals with long rests kb swings on the "recovery" days. That may be a bit much but has felt ok, maybe because I am just lazy enough to not push too hard for too long. I think if I modify my existing a bit, that may be the call. My body comp has definitely been improving, maybe a little hypertrophy but 100% certainly increased muscle density. I have only been doing 2 sets of 10-12 of trap bar dl's so might add a set there.
Thank you all!!!
• Train 3 nonconsecutive days a week.
• Do 3 to 5 (progressive) sets of 8-12 reps for each movement.
• Take your work set(s) to 1 or 2 reps short of failure.
• Optional: Add 1 or 2 isolation movements for weak bodyparts. (Two sets of 15-20 reps for leg curls and face pulls work great for my lagging hammies and rear delts.)
• If you can, include forward and backward sled drags in your weighted carry rotation. If you don't need time off, you can use the sled for active recovery on your off days. (Sled work was a game changer for me.)
Edited by GeoffreyLevens on 05-14-20 10:37 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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GeoffreyLevens
Total Posts: 357
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Just looked at my notebook to see what to modify and realized I'm already very close; somehow I had not connected it with EES, maybe because doing a lot more reps/set.
Standard EES would have swings as part of the same day's work. I've been doing them on different day alternating with the grinds the other days because I like to do something "strenuous" most days. I'm going to add some reps/sets here and there on the grinds and cut back a lot on the swings but still do them. I think maybe 25 sets of 8 might be a bit much in this context!
Again. I thank everyone for input and inspiration. See you all at the pending new Olympics for "Most Badass 100 Year Old", coming up in 2050. Venue to be announced.
Edited by GeoffreyLevens on 05-14-20 11:27 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Ricky01
Total Posts: 709
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My dad in his 60's performs lots of manual work in his garden and helps out older neighbours (cutting grass etc) and rows roughly 3 times a week (he is lucky to have a rowing machine ar home).
He recently completed a challenge and did a 26.2 mile row in 2 hours (1.59.55).
Apart from that I try and get him to do some Heavy Hands walking.
He has also dabbled a little with a Body By Science approach. I don't think this has ever been strictly followed - in reality I think he simply performed a few multi joint movements at roughly a 5/5 cadence to near positive failure....about once a week.
Rowing and a little Heavy Hands would make me happy....add in maybe one session (call it Body By Science - in reality call it slow and controlled) of weights if the desire is there.
Richard
Edited by Ricky01 on 05-14-20 11:40 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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GeoffreyLevens
Total Posts: 357
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05-14-20 11:46 AM - Post#898024
I had rowing machine for awhile. Sold it because I could not seem to do it without screwing up my low back. I did enjoy it though.
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Sean S
Total Posts: 44
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05-14-20 12:12 PM - Post#898026
This is an interesting topic. I see many in the fitness field who probably overanalyze this topic (myself included at times). I tend to believe that anyone 60+ who is doing almost any form of strength training is probably getting most or all of the health benefit of maintaining muscle mass and strength. I don't know if it really matters that much whether it's a "hypertrophy" program or a "strength" program.
I have read a decent amount of the research regarding strength and longevity and it seems that the amount of strength or muscle mass needed to protect overall health is relatively modest compared to the standards of most of us here. I don't recall all the exact numbers, but the amount of training to meet the strength targets to decrease relative risk of mortality isn't that much.
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Ricky01
Total Posts: 709
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05-14-20 12:14 PM - Post#898027
I had rowing machine for awhile. Sold it because I could not seem to do it without screwing up my low back. I did enjoy it though.
Yes I have seen that before. When I rowed semi regularly a while ago I found that when my legs/back fatigued I could become lazy in my body position and lose my straight back.
Once you start to arch at all in the lower back AND try and drive through this position (loaded flexion), bad things can happen.
Richard
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Jordan D
Total Posts: 771
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05-14-20 01:22 PM - Post#898029
This is an interesting topic. I see many in the fitness field who probably overanalyze this topic (myself included at times). I tend to believe that anyone 60+ who is doing almost any form of strength training is probably getting most or all of the health benefit of maintaining muscle mass and strength. I don't know if it really matters that much whether it's a "hypertrophy" program or a "strength" program.
I have read a decent amount of the research regarding strength and longevity and it seems that the amount of strength or muscle mass needed to protect overall health is relatively modest compared to the standards of most of us here. I don't recall all the exact numbers, but the amount of training to meet the strength targets to decrease relative risk of mortality isn't that much.
It is interesting. The Starting Strength guys had an article awhile back about how increasing muscular bodyweight produces better long-term mortality outcomes in the elderly than losing weight. Of course, that fits their MO, but it’s interesting. Dan has often said that you don’t see fat old men on the golf course. It strikes me now that you don’t see many frail old men either. If the stats are correct that people lose, on average, 10% of their lean muscle mass with every decade of aging, it might be reasonable to target hypertrophy until you reach your “high school” weight (at a minimum), and then just stay mobile.
Of course, I’m only 37 so nothing I say matters anyway. I just hope Uncle Al’s posts are still out there for me to read in a few decades.
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DanMartin
Total Posts: 20705
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05-14-20 06:28 PM - Post#898037
As a "Geezer" my own self all I can offer is I have to work twice as hard and twice as smart to get half the gains.
Overtraining is something that can derail what minimal progress you may make. Don't pretend you are immune.
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Old Miler
Total Posts: 1744
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05-14-20 07:03 PM - Post#898038
As a "Geezer" my own self all I can offer is I have to work twice as hard and twice as smart to get half the gains.
What's the definition of a "geezer" anyway? I suspect anyone twice the age of the speaker - my sons certainly think I'm one at 54...
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vegpedlr
Total Posts: 1179
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05-14-20 07:12 PM - Post#898041
I have to work twice as hard and twice as smart to get half the gains.
Word.
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DanMartin
Total Posts: 20705
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05-14-20 07:24 PM - Post#898043
I have to work twice as hard and twice as smart to get half the gains.
Word.
Parsimony is key. I look for overlap and redundancy.
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gwrows
Total Posts: 21
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I’m somewhat ashamed to post this, but the world record marathon for 60 and over age group on the concept 2 rowing machine, which is the standard, is 2 hours and 33 minutes.
Edited by gwrows on 05-15-20 07:59 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Ricky01
Total Posts: 709
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I’m somewhat ashamed to post this, but the world record marathon for 60 and over age group on the concept 2 rowing machine, which is the standard, is 2 hours and 33 minutes.
Gwrows, if this was in reply to my post about my dad doing a sub 2 hour marathon - then you should not be ashamed to post it....it was not a 26 mile row, it was a 26K row (just over 16 miles).
I just phoned him to check.
Richard
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GeoffreyLevens
Total Posts: 357
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I don't recall all the exact numbers, but the amount of training to meet the strength targets to decrease relative risk of mortality isn't that much.
Check out the book. THE BLUE ZONES by Buettner. He researched commonalities between ultra long lived people in regions were super old age is common. Not a single perrson goes to the gym, lifts weights, "does cardio". They just do moderate physical activity and lots of it along with a plant predominant, whole foods diet, healthy social relationships, some sort of spiritual/religious connection, and plenty of rest.
What's the definition of a "geezer" anyway? I suspect anyone twice the age of the speaker - my sons certainly think I'm one at 54...
I'll never forget the first time someone called me "Mister". YIKES! I think I was about 23 years old. Young boy on bicycle pulled up and said, "Hey, Mister. Do you have any kids living there?" I said, "No man, I'm in college. I'm just a kid." And he replied, "No you're not. You're an old man!"
BOOM!!!! I nearly needed to go into therapy.
Edited by GeoffreyLevens on 05-15-20 10:02 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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GeoffreyLevens
Total Posts: 357
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This morning's session which felt near perfect--
Warm up:
Joint mobility and movement flows to get the blood flowing and the cobwebs out
20 hip thrusters (unweighted)
20 goblet squats-moderately heavy
8 light TGU's
Main course (all at about 65-70% max):
3X8 trap bar dl's
3X9 overhead dumbbell presses, alternating sides
3X9 bent over barbell rows (hinged at about 45 degrees)
Dessert:
2 each side-loaded carry-racked kb, sloooow walking in place, about 2 seconds each step
2X1 minute dead hangs
Later I'll go for a walk.
GEEZERS RULE! ALL OTHERS DROOL!
Edited by GeoffreyLevens on 05-15-20 10:13 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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AAnnunz
Total Posts: 24932
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05-15-20 01:50 PM - Post#898069
Good one, Geoffrey! Would you consider keeping a training log here? Several of us oldsters do.
| Be strong. Be in shape. Be a man among men, regardless of your age or circumstances. |
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gwrows
Total Posts: 21
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05-15-20 07:47 PM - Post#898078
Good on him for rowing that far without much training! And at a pretty decent pace too! 2:18 per 500m splits for that distance is well done
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GeoffreyLevens
Total Posts: 357
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Good one, Geoffrey! Would you consider keeping a training log here? Several of us oldsters do.
Not sure what I'd put in a log. I try keeping one at home on paper and it just ends up being the reps and sets for the day. Takes me a loooong time to increase. I'll see what I can put up.
Decided arbitrarily on doing about 100 swings on the non-grind days. No swings on the grind days so breaking things up a bit that way and getting in some calorie burn every day.
Started one. We'll see where goes
Edited by GeoffreyLevens on 05-16-20 05:36 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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GeoffreyLevens
Total Posts: 357
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Note on swings-- I really like the A+A story (at Strong First) about energy generation in the cells. I think Pavel started it and it has been championed by Al Ciampa and it's now pretty much a fad there. I have no idea how real it is physiologically but I clearly notice doing kb swings, if I go full out, the 8th one in any set is identical to the 1st one, and there is a very slight but noticeable power drop in the 9th and a bit more drop in the 10th. It's almost more of a mental than physical drop off. I have no way to actually measure power or speed but I can tell I have to do "something" mentally that is slightly unpleasant to get there on #9. It's like I need to dig deeper, almost "the beginning of desperation" type feeling. Hard to describe. Anyway, I will be doing 14X8 swings to get in my 100 and come out even if doing 1 handed. Rest between sets until talk test ready to go
Edited by GeoffreyLevens on 05-16-20 08:08 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Steve Rogers
Total Posts: 6158
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I'm really enjoying A+A kettlebell snatches. They seem like the Easy Strength philosophy applied to power/endurance.
| "Coyote is always waiting, and Coyote is always hungry." |
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GeoffreyLevens
Total Posts: 357
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I'm really enjoying A+A kettlebell snatches. They seem like the Easy Strength philosophy applied to power/endurance
KB snatch is my #1 favorite exercise/movement I think. My one hinky shoulder just says, "NO!" though so it's swings for me.
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Steve Rogers
Total Posts: 6158
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...
KB snatch is my #1 favorite exercise/movement I think. My one hinky shoulder just says, "NO!" though so it's swings for me.
My shoulders have been iffy since the early 2000s, mostly forward posture induced impingement I think, but they seem to like the snatches.
| "Coyote is always waiting, and Coyote is always hungry." |
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Old Miler
Total Posts: 1744
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I love snatches. They just make my upper back and neck feel good. Nothing like a couple of sets of 5-10 snatches to straighten you up after a day at a computer.
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GeoffreyLevens
Total Posts: 357
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My shoulders have been iffy since the early 2000s, mostly forward posture induced impingement I think, but they seem to like the snatches.
I think ultimate source of my shoulder issues was 50 years of paddling surfboards without any compensatory/balancing work. Then when I started snatching kb, I went too heavy and too much volume with too low of quality. I got such severe biceps tendonitis my arm was essentially paralyzed; from hanging straight down at my side I had about 15 degrees of movement before red alert agony set in. Took months before I could even start to use it again. I think the prolonged inflammation caused some raggedy arthritic spurs on the acromion so ever since, very easy to get impingement; not much room left there. Could likely get it opened up with surgery but no way am I going there!
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Steve Rogers
Total Posts: 6158
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... Could likely get it opened up with surgery but no way am I going there!
Shoulder surgery can take quite some time to come back from and at our are that may be too long so I don't blame you for avoiding it. Seems to be even more so for shoulder replacement.
| "Coyote is always waiting, and Coyote is always hungry." |
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GeoffreyLevens
Total Posts: 357
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... Could likely get it opened up with surgery but no way am I going there!
Shoulder surgery can take quite some time to come back from and at our are that may be too long so I don't blame you for avoiding it. Seems to be even more so for shoulder replacement.
And I have not had good outcome with surgeries. First had torn cartilage repair about 20 years ago. Within a couple days knee froze solid and big as a grapefruit. It had filled with scar tissue and locked up. Had 2nd surgery about 1 month later and started much more aggressive, nearly violent PT the day after. The 2nd surgeon, a guy I found who'd done a bunch of LA Rams knees, told me, "If you get tears in your eyes, that's about right. There's nothing in there that can break and if it does, better that it happen now so we can fix it." Took me a bit over a year to get full ROM back. Then about 3 ½ years ago had umbilical hernia repaired. Guess? Yeah, scar tissue adhesions have jammed up my intestines. Slowly improving finally with very alt.methods but still needing 3 TBS Milk of Magnesia every night to get any porcelain love in the morning. So yeah, surgery for me is something I'll only do if it's really very very very quality of life issue or literally life and death. I can easily work around a bunk shoulder.
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