RupertC
Total Posts: 1479
|
10-29-21 08:34 AM - Post#914292
This research into where the trap bar deadlift fits on the squat-hinge continuum is very interesting: https://www.strongerbyscience.com/trap-bar-deadlifts/
Key finding: "Yes, the trap bar deadlift is a bit 'squattier' than a barbell deadlift, but it’s definitely still a hinge pattern, and nowhere close to being a squat. It’s also worth noting that the conventional deadlift isn’t even a pure hinge in the first place – that would be reserved for stiff-legged deadlifts, Romanian deadlifts, strict good mornings, and the like."
Click through for a chart about halfway down, which shows the TBDL sitting closer to the conventional DL than to a sumo DL. The sumo DL is the a long, long distance from a low-bar squat.
| Check out my critical-thinking blog at sharpenyouraxe.substack.com |
|
iPood
Total Posts: 2360
|
It depends…
It can be both or none. Alan Thrall explained it quite well.
By the way, my favorite trap bar variation is low handle, hips rock bottom (so the ascent is very squatty) and then hips baaaaaack and flat back during the negative portion of the movement (so the descent is very stiff-leggedly).
"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness
and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums.
It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable.
Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow.
Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't."
Dan Martin |
Edited by iPood on 10-29-21 09:04 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
|
AAnnunz
Total Posts: 24932
|
The title of the article may have been valid in 2017, but things have gone in the opposite direction since, so much so that Mark Rippetoe got pissed off and went on this rant:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z94qTzsa-24
As Ipood has shown with his photos of Thrall, a lifter can reduce the hinge quite a bit. It may still not be a squat, it's getting close. This is not to say that a powerlifter or bodybuilder should choose the TBDL over squats and straight bar deadlifts, but for someone on an abbreviated/minimalist routine, looking for a one size fits both lift with a proven track record (cf Abbreviated Training group on Facebook), the TBDL could be the answer. (Personally, I'd pick the barbell hack squat [aka behind the back deadlift] instead, but that's another conversation.)
I disagree with the study and agree with Rip about the comparative stability of the TDBL and conventional DL. You can't pull a trap bar against your shins, engage your lats, and ride up your legs, as you can with a straight bar. Additionally, even if you have your hands properly placed on the handles and your stance is spot on, the bar can still rock along with your body. I've had this happen under a heavy load, lost my balance, and had to put the bar down to prevent disaster.
That said, I do love the trap bar and rotate TBDLs with sumo and conventional pulls. My powerlifting buddies think I'm wasting my time, but done for moderate (5-8) reps, I think it's effective for hypertrophy and strength. I"ll give Louie the last word:
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=916761762062 822
| Be strong. Be in shape. Be a man among men, regardless of your age or circumstances. |
Edited by AAnnunz on 10-29-21 01:49 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
|
RupertC
Total Posts: 1479
|
|
DanMartin
Total Posts: 20705
|
10-29-21 01:09 PM - Post#914305
Just my thoughts...I've owned and given away two trap bars over the years. At the time (early 80's) I was looking for anything that might add a few pounds to my total.
The Gerard Trap Bar did little to improve my total. However, I did feel that there was therapeutic value in that it was a decent alternative to the constant pounding of limit squats and deadlifts.
I've mentioned this before, but I've thought that most folks approach the Trap Bar with the "wrong" mindset. Looking to the Trap Bar for something that isn't there. However, if you look at the Trap Bar lift as the "third" lower body movement, where it is neither a squat or a hinge. Just a lift in and of itself for the lower body.
All of that said, I think the Trap Bar lift should be looked at as a standing leg press where you are doing the reverse of the old fashioned vertical leg press machine. (With the added benefit of engaging a lot more muscle groups than a vertical leg press.)
YMMV
PS, a trap bar, a few KB'd and a TRX will take you where you need to go.
|
JDII
Total Posts: 7319
|
10-29-21 04:36 PM - Post#914308
“standing leg press” is the best description for the trap bar
|
Kyle Aaron
Total Posts: 1911
|
10-30-21 12:41 AM - Post#914325
A taxonomy should, ideally, be something which enhances our understanding of things, not one which confuses it. Any taxonomy is ultimately arbitrary. That's fine, but we shouldn't get too caught up in it.
I've been distance training a young woman who works on a dairy farm and wants to join the army.
Being rural, plus the global supply crunch, she couldn't get herself gym gear. So she used three big milk jugs. One she added a litre of water a week, that was the "heavy" one. The next she added half a litre, that was the "medium" one, and the last she added a cup a time, that was the "light" one.
5 days a week for 3 months, she did this,
- Set a timer or watch the clock to do one movement on the minute.
- Heavy milk jug - with the thing lying on its side, pick it up and stand up straight. Put it back down. Do this 10 times, on the minute.
- Light milk jug, pick it up fast and get it onto your chest. Now put it overhead with both hands. Lower it to the ground. Do this 10 times, on the minute.
- Medium milk jug, pick it up but fast, and get it onto one shoulder. Walk down your driveway (hers was about 12 yards). Then squat down with it, pause at the bottom, and stand back up. Change shoulders next time. Do this 10 times, on the minute.
- Go for a run, run for 10 minutes as fast as you can. Stop, turn around and walk back, or run back if you're feeling energetic.
She did this and some dietary stuff for those three months, and without doing any pushups she went from 3 to 38 pushups. But wait... she only did a vertical push, how did her horizontal push get stronger? Her 5km time went from 52' to 27'.
Then in her next 3 months we fiddled a bit and added chinup negatives, and harder and easier days for the runs, and that sort of thing.
And once she could get into a gym, where she's been the last month or so, she easily squatted 75kg for 6, just today she squatted 107.5kg for a double, and did 48 pushups. She also did 5km in 22'10".
Now, was picking up the milk jug a deadlift, or a squat? How about picking it up and putting it on her shoulder, was that a clean, a "continental clean", or a squat and row, or...? God, I don't know, the woman just picked it up. And her first videos were horribly messy, but she did 10 reps 5 days a week for 6 months and somewhere in those 1,300 reps she figured things out somehow...
A taxonomy like DJ's of squat, push, pull, hip hinge and loaded carry can be useful to make sure things are well-covered. But let's not get rabbinical (or Jesuit) about it.
I don't like the trap bar much, myself, but that's more because I have limited space in my garage, so I'm not keen on single-purpose pieces of kit. Give me some more space and I'll put it in there.
|
iPood
Total Posts: 2360
|
10-30-21 02:56 AM - Post#914326
Looking to the Trap Bar for something that isn't there. However, if you look at the Trap Bar lift as the "third" lower body movement, where it is neither a squat or a hinge. Just a lift in and of itself for the lower body.
This!
Squat, deadlift, trap bar lift and hip thrust. The perfect lower body program.
"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness
and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums.
It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable.
Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow.
Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't."
Dan Martin |
|
iPood
Total Posts: 2360
|
10-30-21 02:58 AM - Post#914327
A taxonomy should, ideally, be something which enhances our understanding of things, not one which confuses it. Any taxonomy is ultimately arbitrary. That's fine, but we shouldn't get too caught up in it.
I've been distance training a young woman who works on a dairy farm and wants to join the army.
Being rural, plus the global supply crunch, she couldn't get herself gym gear. So she used three big milk jugs. One she added a litre of water a week, that was the "heavy" one. The next she added half a litre, that was the "medium" one, and the last she added a cup a time, that was the "light" one.
5 days a week for 3 months, she did this,
- Set a timer or watch the clock to do one movement on the minute.
- Heavy milk jug - with the thing lying on its side, pick it up and stand up straight. Put it back down. Do this 10 times, on the minute.
- Light milk jug, pick it up fast and get it onto your chest. Now put it overhead with both hands. Lower it to the ground. Do this 10 times, on the minute.
- Medium milk jug, pick it up but fast, and get it onto one shoulder. Walk down your driveway (hers was about 12 yards). Then squat down with it, pause at the bottom, and stand back up. Change shoulders next time. Do this 10 times, on the minute.
- Go for a run, run for 10 minutes as fast as you can. Stop, turn around and walk back, or run back if you're feeling energetic.
She did this and some dietary stuff for those three months, and without doing any pushups she went from 3 to 38 pushups. But wait... she only did a vertical push, how did her horizontal push get stronger? Her 5km time went from 52' to 27'.
Then in her next 3 months we fiddled a bit and added chinup negatives, and harder and easier days for the runs, and that sort of thing.
And once she could get into a gym, where she's been the last month or so, she easily squatted 75kg for 6, just today she squatted 107.5kg for a double, and did 48 pushups. She also did 5km in 22'10".
Now, was picking up the milk jug a deadlift, or a squat? How about picking it up and putting it on her shoulder, was that a clean, a "continental clean", or a squat and row, or...? God, I don't know, the woman just picked it up. And her first videos were horribly messy, but she did 10 reps 5 days a week for 6 months and somewhere in those 1,300 reps she figured things out somehow...
A taxonomy like DJ's of squat, push, pull, hip hinge and loaded carry can be useful to make sure things are well-covered. But let's not get rabbinical (or Jesuit) about it.
I don't like the trap bar much, myself, but that's more because I have limited space in my garage, so I'm not keen on single-purpose pieces of kit. Give me some more space and I'll put it in there.
"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness
and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums.
It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable.
Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow.
Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't."
Dan Martin |
|
iPood
Total Posts: 2360
|
10-30-21 09:57 AM - Post#914330
The real question is… what does the trap bar lift do for you that the snatch grip deadlift doesn’t do even better?
"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness
and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums.
It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable.
Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow.
Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't."
Dan Martin |
|
Arsenio Billingham
Total Posts: 159
|
10-30-21 10:21 AM - Post#914332
I've usually use trap bar deadlift as my "squat" movement, and would do KB swings for the hip-hinge.
After my herniated disk this summer I stopped doing conventional deadlifts and have been doing TBDLs a few days a week the past month or so. Nothing too crazy, two sets of 5 at 70% of my one rep max 4ish days a week. I've also been doing cleans and presses (singles and doubles) as my hinge.
I had some lingering pain in my back since August but in the past two weeks have noticed that, for the first time since the initial injury, my back feels fine. Whatever movement pattern it fits into, it seems to be helping.
|
AAnnunz
Total Posts: 24932
|
The real question is… what does the trap bar lift do for you that the snatch grip deadlift doesn’t do even better?
If you use the upper bar, as most do, the TBDL is much like the SGDL off 4" blocks. The TBDLs are easier on the lower back.
That said, Charles Poliquin took your point to the next level by elevating deficit SGDLs above squats, conventional deadlifts, and trap bar deadlifts in this statement:
“If you told me you were going to jail and only had a barbell...and could only do one exercise to put mass and strength on, then I’d tell you to do the snatch deadlift on a platform.”
| Be strong. Be in shape. Be a man among men, regardless of your age or circumstances. |
Edited by AAnnunz on 10-31-21 08:48 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
|
Jake W
Total Posts: 1
|
11-01-21 02:33 PM - Post#914390
Some might consider this "soft" but I like TBDLs as a way to pick something heavy up without having to bloody my shins.
However, I think the true beauty of the trap bar lies in carrying it.
Whether I squat it up or hinge it up, I know that if I can pick up a heavy weight and carry it, I must be doing something right.
|
|
