01-05-22 03:24 PM - Post#915879    

DJ/everybody,

I sit in seiza pose, and a few others daily. They just feel good to me......typically for 30 seconds and/or sometimes 15-20 minutes. I included a link with seiza in it in case nobody's familiar with that name.

I sit like this too in a deep squat while watching tv. Loved living in Japan from 1999-2003!

Anyways, I like the "vents" that you do.

Are there similar benefits do you think? Or are they focused on something different? Vents appear to stretch a bit more of the toes/foot out where I feel seiza a bit more in my knees/quads. Then again I'm 6'2 and everybody's a bit different I learned being a Phys. Therapy tech/personal trainer the last few years.

I'm going to try them tonight and see how they feel. I've been dealing with some nasty mid foot/right big toe pain for a while so it'll either aggravate it immediately or help it.

Hold for time? a few reps more "mobility" style?

Thank you so much. I appreciate the input.

https://www.japan-talk.com/jt/new/seiza#:~:text= Seiza%20can%20be%20transl ated%20%22proper,be%20fla t%...

Re: Japanese seiza pose and vents?
01-05-22 06:21 PM - Post#915883    

I am one of those gaijin described in the article. Tried to do seiza in aikido classes at university, collapsed in cramps after 3 minutes. Tried regularly while living in Japan for a year and a half, never developed the mobility. Stopped trying after damned near injuring myself.

If you are going to try and learn it, I suggest to start with something rolled under the ankle, or a cushion between heels and bum, sit for a good amount of time, and gradually reduce the 'props'.

It's a shame I never got there as it seems to either lead to, or just be correlated with, excellent posture. And I would have looked less stupid in Japan many times ;-)

01-05-22 10:32 PM - Post#915888    

I'm 6'1" and never had any difficulty doing seiza in my Shotokan classes a few decades ago. Arthroscopic surgery on my right knee changed that. Prior to the surgery, I had no difficulty touching either heel to its corresponding buttock. After the surgery my right heel wouldn’t get within a foot of my right buttock.

Bretzels have helped. Just focus on pulling the back ankle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0mW8UOO_OQ
Having a partner push while you pull is helpful.

The rocking Tim Anderson recommends helps, too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CgJKPAyw5Q

I can once again do seiza, but not for long. The two exercises above have, however, just about restored the range of motion in my right knee.

01-06-22 01:10 PM - Post#915901    

Old Miller-I understand sir. Where in Japan did you live? I loved it. I lived in Fussa just outside of Tokyo for 4 years. I'm 6'2 but it's not that hard for me. Then again, I started training in martial arts when I was 7 on base in Spain with my military father so I'm used to doing it. I've trained off and on my entire life in various states/countries. I've been blessed.

I was more asking about the "vents" and if they felt similar/different or are they for a different emphasis i.e. the toes/feet vs. than the knees/shins in seiza.

Upwind-thanks for your input and I checked those out. I was asking mostly for "vents" as DJ calls them.

The rocking is nice but not tough at all and the bretzels I really like but for a different emphasis.

Thanks to both of you for your input.

01-06-22 02:14 PM - Post#915904    

I first encountered these doing the Gymnastic Bodies program years ago. It took me AT LEAST a year before I could do them fully. Now, they’re the first thing I do every single morning for ten deep breaths.

It’s impossible to explain, but going through that year taught me more than anything about how mangled and restricted our modern bodies really are. Comfort is toxic. I’m obsessed with not losing basic functionalities like this ever again.

01-06-22 03:12 PM - Post#915906    

• warrior Said:

When I was an undergrad I spent two summers in Kobe teaching English. Then later, a year and a bit in Tokyo living just west of Shinjuku and Shibuya, and commuting to a big corporation in Marunouchi. I explored pretty thoroughly outside of work - used to take the train out your way to the Tama river for runs. I loved living in Japan.

01-06-22 03:36 PM - Post#915907    

Jordan-thanks for sharing. Good points. Once I get loosened up, it just feels good.

Old Miller-very cool!!!!! I loved it too! Yep, my longest run ever (not a runner lol) was on the Tama River. I worked security at Bar Row in Fussa on the weekends for extra money, visited Tokyo, Yokohama, Tachikawa, etc. frequently. Loved it!

Crazily enough, I was stationed there during Y2K, 9/11, deployed to Kuwait from Japan and the invasion of Iraq in 2003. Crazy times but I definitely miss Japan. Love the food (most of it not all of it), the manners, work ethic and the combination of living simply/naturally combined with very high tech/futuristic.

Their camera phones in 1999/2000 were far more advanced than anything we had at that time. It was so cool to train with Royce Gracie/others on base, got to meet Ken Shamrock at Norita airport, etc.

Where does the time fly???

01-06-22 04:45 PM - Post#915910    

Warrior, were you Air Force at Yokota? I only just made the connection to Fussa.

I was a founder member of a running club for foreigners in Japan in 1989 who did pretty well in the local Ekiden scene (it's still going strong). US military were very supportive. There was a sergeant at Yokota who coached and organised races, and helped us recruit our squad. The base put on a wonderful Ekiden every year on a traffic-free course within the grounds, with a band of Taiko drummers doing their thing at the changeover - the most atmospheric race finish ever.

This was when Oakleys had just got popular so we got them cheap at the PX somehow (along with luxuries not normally found in Tokyo, like huge jars of peanut butter) and made them part of the "team uniform". We had 5 pairs, so when I handed over the sash to the last runner I handed him my shades first and he had to wear them. The locals loved it.

01-07-22 05:06 AM - Post#915925    

As warrior says, vents stretch the toes more, in a different way, and, for many people, more dangerously, than seiza.
I have practised seiza since my early twenties - I'm 64 now. I can hold it for more than 30 minutes, but with a cushion on my ankles. Very good for posture. I'm one of those who already find damaging sitting on chairs for a long time, but if I sit in seiza, that doesn't happen. However, seiza restricts the blood flow and when you stand up, you can feel your lower legs numb. For this same reason, it is recommended in yoga for varicose veins.
One reason to use a cushion: seiza itself will place your hips a bit higher than you thighs, and the cushion lifts them even more, which is good for posture, in general, and promotes stability.
In vents, much of your weight rests on the ball of the foot, which is a small surface. This elevates the hip even more, and so they can seem more comfortable than seiza for your back. But the pressure on the ball of the foot and the stretched toes maybe will not allow you to hold the posture for so long as seiza.
I can hold seiza, as I said, for more than half an hour. But I can only hold vents for ten minutes.

01-07-22 05:07 AM - Post#915926    

As warrior says, vents stretch the toes more, in a different way, and, for many people, more dangerously, than seiza.
I have practised seiza since my early twenties - I'm 64 now. I can hold it for more than 30 minutes, but with a cushion on my ankles. Very good for posture. I'm one of those who already find damaging sitting on chairs for a long time, but if I sit in seiza, that doesn't happen. However, seiza restricts the blood flow and when you stand up, you can feel your lower legs numb. For this same reason, it is recommended in yoga for varicose veins.
One reason to use a cushion: seiza itself will place your hips a bit higher than you thighs, and the cushion lifts them even more, which is good for posture, in general, and promotes stability.
In vents, much of your weight rests on the ball of the foot, which is a small surface. This elevates the hip even more, and so they can seem more comfortable than seiza for your back. But the pressure on the ball of the foot and the stretched toes maybe will not allow you to hold the posture for so long as seiza.
I can hold seiza, as I said, for more than half an hour. But I can only hold vents for ten minutes.

01-07-22 05:11 AM - Post#915927    

I will only add to my previous post that both postures are wonderful and they complement each other for foot flexibility and health...but within reason and without forcing.
Both are endorsed by Tom Furman, among others.

01-07-22 08:24 AM - Post#915929    

The seiza thing is interesting, and seems like it would (obviously) have a lot of benefits for ankle mobility. Any other benefits folks who practice it have found?

I see another "every day for a month" thing here...

01-07-22 11:15 AM - Post#915934    

• scilla Said:

Actually, now that I read this, I think I first discovered vents in one of Pavel's book, where he suggests them for ankle mobility, or one of Dan's old articles (about community workouts in a park, perhaps?). I do these daily too, but never for more than a minute. Ten minutes astounds me, haha.

If you think about this as a basic static function, you can see how they integrate to better systemic function in things like Aikido walking or those rail-balance-walking movements that Ido Portal and KOT Guy teach (at super-advanced levels).

Tim Anderson teaches the benefits too, in seiza and with elevated rocking for foot strength.

All this makes me think that this isn't a cool party trick, but something very, very basic most of us Westerners have lost. I suspect this should be regained/mastered before practicing the "third world" squat. Or, for children, never lost in the first place.

01-07-22 11:28 AM - Post#915935    

Old Miller-yes sir I was. That sounds very cool. I only practiced jogging for the PT test but mostly did other exercises and mostly trained martial arts and played in a basketball rec league.

"PX" nice )

Scilla-thanks.

Jordan D-yes sir, I got the idea from Dan John. Yes sir, I agree. No, it's not a party trick, you're correct they're very basic positions we lose as we age.

I do the squat and seiza daily for time. Short holds to "warm up" and sometimes longer holds while watching sports, news, etc. Cool videos thanks.

Very simple stretches/postures that loosen shins, feet, ankles, knees, etc. Joints popping is okay as long as there's no pain......i.e. crepitus.

01-07-22 02:18 PM - Post#915936    

I've done a few 2-minute holds throughout the day so far -- feels good. I'm thinking 2-10 minutes a day (depending on comfort level) would be a good start for most westerners.

01-07-22 02:31 PM - Post#915939    

BrianBinVA-good points in general. Definitely depends on the person. Seiza has never been a problem for me.

On another note, located in VA/DC eh? Crazy crazy weather lately huh?

I pray you're doing well and safe sir.

01-07-22 02:52 PM - Post#915940    

What are "vents"? Google isn't helping me much here...

01-07-22 04:38 PM - Post#915944    

• Old Miler Said:

I may be mistaken, but this is what I've been referring to:

https://baboonden.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/kikyo.jpg

01-07-22 05:55 PM - Post#915945    

• Jordan D Said:

Aha! Those would work for me; the limiting factor in seiza for me is 'straight shin/ankle line' which I can't get close to, unless I stick a small cushion or rolled towel under the ankle.

I'm getting ideas for a "Netflix mobility circuit" that won't be too annoying to "others in the room": cycle through seiza/vents, monkey position, groin stretch, hurdle stretch, sit and reach, upward dog etc, changing positions before cramp sets in. Start with a Young Sheldon (20 minute episodes) and build up to 55 minute BBC dramas!

01-10-22 04:08 PM - Post#916009    

Jordan D-yes sir, exactly.

I got the idea/question for "vents" from DJ's stuff here:

http://danjohn.net/wp-content/uploads/cp kb2.pdf