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Display Name Post: The Pull to Push ratio is wrong        (Topic#37310)
Bobby G
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Total Posts: 98
07-12-20 08:25 AM - Post#900219    



Article:

The Push to Pull ratio is wrong
 
Dan John
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Total Posts: 12292
07-12-20 11:48 AM - Post#900225    



Is there something to talk about here...am I missing something, Bobby?
Daniel John
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DanMartin
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Total Posts: 20705
07-12-20 12:02 PM - Post#900226    



  • Dan John Said:
Is there something to talk about here...am I missing something, Bobby?



I feel the same way.
Mark it Zero.


 
Justin Jordan
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Total Posts: 854
07-12-20 01:28 PM - Post#900229    



I am not clear on how you ARE reaching in that half kneeling press (and why bottoms up is important) but NOT in a pulldown.
 
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The Pull to Push ratio is wrong
07-19-20 03:06 PM - Post#900476    



I didn't know this (but I'm just a layman and not a coach, so I hope it's ok...). I have always tried to pair pullups/chinups/rows with a bench press since I have heard to combine a push with a pull.

Could goblet squats work as a good "anti-press/pull" movement for the shoulders then, squat-wise? Or must the movement contain pushing upwards to count? I'm a bit confused.

When I do bench press, zercher squats and chin ups in the same session my elbows can hurt afterwards, so I am very interested in this topic.


Edited by Damiano on 07-19-20 03:07 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
 
iPood
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Total Posts: 2360
Re: The Pull to Push ratio is wrong
07-19-20 05:43 PM - Post#900479    



  • Damiano Said:
I didn't know this (but I'm just a layman and not a coach, so I hope it's ok...). I have always tried to pair pullups/chinups/rows with a bench press since I have heard to combine a push with a pull.

Could goblet squats work as a good "anti-press/pull" movement for the shoulders then, squat-wise? Or must the movement contain pushing upwards to count? I'm a bit confused.

When I do bench press, zercher squats and chin ups in the same session my elbows can hurt afterwards, so I am very interested in this topic.




Maybe it's just me and the weird way I'm assembled, but doing a vertical push and a horizontal pull or a verticall pull and a horizontal push keep my shoulders and elbows happy.

Thing is, they don't really have to be strictly horizontal and vertical patterns, but I've found out that keeping 90° between patterns is best:

- Incline bench and 45° rows (roughly 90° between movements).

- Pull ups and bench.

- Horizontal rows and presses.

- Bench and curls.

- Chest supported rows and dips.

You get the idea...
"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness
and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums.
It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable.
Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow.
Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't."

Dan Martin


 
Adam S
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Total Posts: 629
Re: The Pull to Push ratio is wrong
07-19-20 11:09 PM - Post#900486    



The article has me a little confused, too. Thinking in terms of the push to pull ratio is useful, if you add a little nuance. The point of it is to prevent postural and shoulder issues that can result from too much emphasis on muscles involved in internal rotation, especially the pecs. But not all "pulling" muscles are going to counteract the overemphasis on internal rotators, because some of those pulling muscles--specifically, the lats and teres major--are themselves internal rotators. So you are not going to counterbalance the negative effects of too much flat, incline, or decline pressing with ordinary pulldowns or chins, which emphasize the lats and teres major. You won't counteract too much pressing with rows either, if you do the rows in ways that emphasize the lats--that is with arms adducted (elbows close to the sides). But if you do your pulls with your arms abducted (away from your body), such as by doing barbell, cable, dumbbell (one or two arm) or t-bar rows with your elbows ending up out away from the body (which is easier with a pronated (overhand) grip) or even doing pulldowns while leaning back and pulling your elbows back and out away from your body, you won't eliminate the lats and teres major entirely, but you'll strongly bias the movement toward your rear delts, teres minor, and rhomboids, which are external rotators and which can help counteract the effects of lots of pressing (and lots of lat work). For the sake of my shoulders, I make sure to include rear delt and rhomboid work in every workout in which I press and/or work my lats. I also try to do some lower and mid trap work, though I definitely don't enough of that. So I don't think the push to pull ratio "is wrong," but it needs more nuance. But the article's argument about reaching strikes me as a stretch.
Why are you squatting in the curl rack?


 
read the bread book
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Total Posts: 92
Re: The Pull to Push ratio is wrong
07-20-20 12:08 AM - Post#900488    



  • iPood Said:
  • Damiano Said:
I didn't know this (but I'm just a layman and not a coach, so I hope it's ok...). I have always tried to pair pullups/chinups/rows with a bench press since I have heard to combine a push with a pull.

Could goblet squats work as a good "anti-press/pull" movement for the shoulders then, squat-wise? Or must the movement contain pushing upwards to count? I'm a bit confused.

When I do bench press, zercher squats and chin ups in the same session my elbows can hurt afterwards, so I am very interested in this topic.




Maybe it's just me and the weird way I'm assembled, but doing a vertical push and a horizontal pull or a verticall pull and a horizontal push keep my shoulders and elbows happy.

Thing is, they don't really have to be strictly horizontal and vertical patterns, but I've found out that keeping 90° between patterns is best:

- Incline bench and 45° rows (roughly 90° between movements).

- Pull ups and bench.

- Horizontal rows and presses.

- Bench and curls.

- Chest supported rows and dips.

You get the idea...



this has been my experience as well. I find that vertical pushing and vertical pulling in the same session for me tends to also jack up my shoulders, but benching then pull ups or ohp and rowing seems to make everything just work 'better'
 
AusDaz
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Total Posts: 3611
07-20-20 03:29 AM - Post#900493    



Let’s not forget the basics here - for the bench press and curls crowd actually doing pulls is a revelation. Similarly, for those of us who spend our lives in internal rotation hunched over a desk or whatever, then finding movements like batwings or TRX Y’s and T’s that are a corrective for our particular issues is also a revelation.
 
Jort Kramer
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Total Posts: 566
07-20-20 06:24 AM - Post#900499    



I think the internal vs external rotation ratio is much more important than the push vs pull ratio. Overhead pressing would be a "push" movement but will help with external rotation, whereas pull ups is a "pull" but will also train the internal rotators...
 
Browser
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Total Posts: 507
The Pull to Push ratio is wrong
07-20-20 12:26 PM - Post#900514    



I like that article. My shoulders started feeling better when I quit pulling so much. Pulling movements never helped my bench either. Instead of making my shoulder girdle stronger they just made my upper back tired. But my upper back and lats get more sore than my chest from benching anyway.
"The trouble about always trying to preserve the health of the body is that it is so difficult to do without destroying the health of the mind."~GK Chesterton




Edited by Browser on 07-20-20 01:02 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
 
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