04-28-20 07:11 PM - Post#897407    

Hi everyone,

I'm a longtime lurker here. I'd like to get everyone's input on a decision I'm trying to make.

Since we've been under lockdown, I've decided to spend my fitness time by starting to learn the Olympic lifts. I'm 43 years old, 5'11", 183 pounds. Body composition is not great and not terrible; my little scale that's supposed to measure body fat percentage says I'm 17%. I realize that's most likely not accurate. I'm kind of a lanky person.

Over the last year a lot of my physical training time has been for Brazilian jiu jitsu, so I haven't done a lot of heavy lifting. Before that, my best lifts were a back squat of 225x3, front squat of 165x5, sumo deadlift of 315x1, strict press of 130x1, and bench press of 165x5. My athletic background in my 20s was a lot of running and cycling. No lifting.

I'm in zero danger of winning the Olympics, or even being competitive. I just think the lifts are really neat, the look cool, and I like the skill-based part of breaking them down and learning them.

I have a barbell, bumper and iron plates, a full power rack, an adjustable bench, squat shoes, a DIY TRX setup, trap bar, axle bar, safety squat bar, sled, kettlebells from 12kg to 24 kg, and a couple of loadable olympic dumbbell handles in my garage, so I am lucky to have plenty of equipment on hand. I may very well suffer from having too many choices.

Right now I'm just working on positional work with a broomstick and some very basic drills for my Olympic learning. I am finding that it is a fair amount of work for me right now even with just the broomstick to say, support the snatch grip at the proper width overhead with my shoulders and upper back in the correct positions. Since the broomstick is so light, I've been doing a little every day, and every day I feel a little bit more mobility and a little more strength in the right positions. It's slow, but it doesn't feel like it's impossible that I'll be able to improve. If I can improve over the next couple of months, I'll probably look into getting some coaching help when the lockdowns are over.

Still, I feel like I need to also be doing some more straightforward strength work as well. I'm hoping it would help complement the skill practice I'm working on. What would you recommend for someone in my shoes? Easy Strength? The Southwood program? Something else?

Thanks,

Brian

04-28-20 08:26 PM - Post#897411    

Leaving the suggestions to others...just wanted to say hi, Brian. :~)

04-28-20 08:46 PM - Post#897412    

Since you don't plan to compete, are you looking to learn the 3 lifts (press included) or just the 2 current ones?

Life's too short to worry about longevity.

04-28-20 09:12 PM - Post#897413    

Well, I have a whole Easy Strength O program which might be good.


In “my world,” the O lifts are foundational movements for football and throwing and everything else, IF we have the time and the appropriate mobility, flexibility and fitness.

I get lots of requests for programming the O lifts, but the issue is always multi-faceted:

1. Do you have an Olympic bar and a place to drop weights?
2. Do you know the lifts?
3. What are your records in the snatch, clean and jerk, and total?
4. Why are you asking me to help you online?

Each is key. With Question Four, I often discover that the person is broken, damaged and destroyed by trying to train like a drugged up full-time lifter who eats, sleeps and trains…and somebody makes those meals.

Often, I suggest an Easy Strength approach with appropriate poundage and per cents. Basically, I think, and this is nothing new, that the casual trainer can make GREAT progress focusing simply on the O lifts and ONE conditioning tool. The weight is usually in the 70-80% range and we only go HEAVY on the platform at a meet with three officials.

And, yes, I wish I would have done this myself!!!!

Basically, the ES O Lift is simply a five-day a week training program that involves three weeks of:

Snatch
Clean and Jerk
Farmer Walks or Prowlers or Sled Pulls (and vary it as you wish)

Then, a single week of:

Power Snatch
Power Clean
Front Squats

That’s it.

With the Olympic lift training, for a non-national or non-world class lifter, is going to be a study in “picking options.” (More on this in a moment). I feel that the performance of the Olympic lifts is oddly the SMARTEST training in sports (we can include the power lifts, too, here):

Your sport blends the technical training with the strength (mobility and flexibility) training at the same time.

Adding the Loaded Carries (Farmer Walks or Prowlers or Sled Pulls) and the Front Squats are for conditioning/work capacity purposes. Yes, if necessary, drop those! (I wouldn’t recommend it)

Quickly, the “rules:”

1. NEVER miss an attempt in training. If you do, you really missed the point of this whole program.
2. Strive to use the “Heels Only” technique (see the Get Up! archives for details)
3. Always finish fresh…and enthusiastic

Repeat this for three weeks.

Day One (Five days a week training)
Snatch: 5 sets of 2 with a single weight
Clean and Jerk: 5 sets of singles with a single weight
Farmer Walks or Prowlers or Sled Pulls

Day Two
Snatch: 3 sets of 3 with a heavier load than Day One (it can be one kilo)
Clean and Jerk: 3 singles with a heavier load than Day One
Farmer Walks or Prowlers or Sled Pulls
Day Three
Snatch: 2 sets of 5 with a lighter load
Clean and Jerk: 5 singles with a lighter load
Farmer Walks or Prowlers or Sled Pulls

Day Four
Snatch: 5 sets of 2 with a single weight
Clean and Jerk: 5 sets of singles with a single weight
Farmer Walks or Prowlers or Sled Pulls
The secret to the program. Try to go a little heavier than Day One but try to see if it “feels” the same.

Day Five
Snatch: A set of five, add weight, a set of three, add weight: double
Clean and Jerk: Three singles adding weight each time.
Farmer Walks or Prowlers or Sled Pulls

Measure progress by the Day One and Day Four loads. These should nudge upwards monthly.
Week Three, Day Five: strive for heavier and heavier attempts each month.

Week Four
Day One
Power Snatch: 3 sets of 3
Power Clean: 3 sets of 3
Front Squat: 3 sets of 3

Day Two
Power Snatch: 2 sets of 5 (fast and snappy…find a good load)
Power Clean: 2 sets of 5 (fast and snappy…find a good load)
Front Squat: 2 sets of 5 (fast and snappy…find a good load)

Day Three
Go HEAVIER than Day One
Power Snatch: 3 sets of 3
Power Clean: 3 sets of 3
Front Squat: 3 sets of 3

Day Four
Repeat load from Day Two (go heavier NEXT month)
Power Snatch: 2 sets of 5
Power Clean: 2 sets of 5
Front Squat: 2 sets of 5

Day Five
Go HEAVIER than Day Three (if reasonable)
Power Snatch: 3 sets of 3
Power Clean: 3 sets of 3
Front Squat: 3 sets of 3

If you read my work, you know I don’t trust per cents, but an experienced lifter would think about 65-70% (or less) on the first round of doing this. Oddly, you might feel so good that you jump up really heavy and…

Miss the point of the program!

The volume is deceptive. My math skills are always suspect, but it appears that we are doing 18 quality sets of snatches a week (Weeks one through three) and 21 sets (basically singles) in the Clean and Jerk.

My coach, Dave Turner, got me to understand too late in my career that the Clean AND Jerk takes a really high toll on the body.

Singles are fine.

Can you do more? Well, try this first. My goal for you is to have a full month of “makes” and grease the positions and patterns. After the second full month, “invent” a meet and go heavy and see how you feel AND see how you do.

You are going to argue it’s “too easy.”

Until you do it.

Daniel John Just handing down what I was handed down... Make a Difference. Live. Love. Laugh. Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude) Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk. Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth. Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights. Reread great books. Say thank you

04-28-20 10:36 PM - Post#897414    

This is helpful stuff!

http://danjohn.net/pdfs/bp.pdf

Control F
Type heels in the box.
Read.

Better yet, study the whole thing.

Dan is a way cool guy, ain't he!

Life's too short to worry about longevity.

04-28-20 11:34 PM - Post#897416    

I learned the Olympic lifts starting at age 54 - I've never been sorry. I learned it from the coaches at Columbus Barbell so I had good instruction from the start - which I would recommend. My "extra" was lots of reps with a PVC pipe and overhead squats with the bar and lighter stuff - I was so stiff I had trouble hitting positions and this helped me. Some stretching for my wrists and shoulders helped also. I think Dan's approach is similar to what I was taught except I didn't do the carries but more mobility - which was what I needed the most.

Starting to learn the Olympic lifts - what complementary strength work?
04-29-20 12:18 AM - Post#897417    

Wow! Thank you. I really appreciate all of you taking the time to post. This looks great.

Does it matter which style of the lifts I do? In addition to picking up learning the lifts again in the past couple of weeks, I've also dabbled with trying them out in the past. I've tried both the split and the squat style lifts, and I always feel like the split style lifts - snatch and clean - feel much more natural to me. My pulls seem to go up straighter and I have a much easier time being in the right place to receive the weight. I feel more graceful and confident. The squat style lifts are much tougher for me; right now they're definitely a more awkward affair.

Tonight I actually went out and did the Week 1 Day 1 workout. I'm still not very confident with even the empty bar in the snatch - I've got some tight wrists and they're not used to the pressure from the wide grip. I'm sure it will get better with time as I adjust, though.

So - necessity is the mother of invention. I added some weight to my broomstick. I'm attaching a picture of what I did. Don't laugh. I will say that you definitely feel it if the bar does anything but go straight up.

I've seen some plans on the web for building up a lighter weight technique bar from some black iron and PVC pipe. I might have to look into making one to help move me up to the 20 kg bar.




Edited by BBobb on 04-29-20 12:19 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

04-29-20 11:54 AM - Post#897425    

How do your tight wrists affect your ability to do cleans and front squats? I have a terrible time getting into a proper rack position because of tight wrists (and shoulders/thoracic spine, maybe?), and have to do front squats with the crossed arm method, so I can't go too heavy on them. Any sort of clean I do looks like an abomination too.

04-29-20 01:41 PM - Post#897428    

Dan that post is gold. Now that it’s warming up and I have access to my platform in my shop again I have been really excited to spend the summer doing some Olympic lifting. Maybe try to hit a quick meet in fall before temps dive again.

I know the ES approach from your point of view is always 5 days a week. Could someone make this work on 3 days a week. Or 3 days a week of the full lifts and the other 2 days really short with some power variations?

04-29-20 02:49 PM - Post#897431    

• ohiojosh Said:

I can actually get a full grip around the bar for front squats and cleans. I used to think that I was forever resigned to front squatting with just my fingertips on the bar, but then I realized that for me I needed to work on my upper back posture, get a "big chest" when unracking and let my scapula and shoulders "spread" out around my sides. I don't focus too much on the whole "elbows up" thing - I think it's been kind of a red herring for me that covered up other mobility problems.

Look at how Oleksiy Torokhtiy front squats in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvYzq36zm5s

His elbows are not excessively up, and you can see the big chest and how he "spreads" his shoulders out more to the sides. I also do the thing he recommends with strapping into the bar to hold the position and keep your hands from slipping. The only time I do think about "elbows up" is coming out of the bottom, but I'm actually thinking more about pressing up on the bar with my palms. That's talked about here: https://www.allthingsgym.com/larrys-chinese-weight lifting-experience-part-3 -front-squats/

Also look at how Zack Telander discussses this in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNcXQ5jPnr4

Once I learned that front rack position and practiced it, I can regularly do that cool unracking thing you see in training hall videos where the elites just walk up, spin their elbows under the bar, and walk it out. I'm sure I don't look as good doing it, but I feel like I do!

Now, I do have tight tendons in my right wrist, which makes the front rack a little uncomfortable. I know why this is. I work a job where I use a mouse a LOT and over the years the tendons in my fingers and wrist have become tight and shortened. I have to stretch regularly. I'm also doing various wrist curl exercises to strengthen and get a pump in my forearms and wrists. Little and often over the long haul.

Discomfort in my wrists on the snatch grip is more of a pressure thing. With all of this stuff I think it's a matter of time. It just takes time to condition yourself to hold heavy weights in extreme positions. Again, little and often over the long haul.

04-29-20 06:23 PM - Post#897435    

Wow, what a thread. If you hadn't sold me on 10,000 swings last week, I would be having a crack at this.

Perfect use of lockdown time - and I have duct tape, tiny dumbells and a PVC pipe sitting idle!

Starting to learn the Olympic lifts - what complementary strength work?
05-01-20 03:46 PM - Post#897520    

Something that made a huge difference when I learned the snatch and clean & jerk was a cue I heard from Jim Schmitz. Sit for a long time in the bottom positions on warmups and even with heavier weights. You should love the bottom position. It should be your home is what I think Jim said. That seemed to condition the wrists and shoulders way better than stretching or anything.

This thread is really making want to start weightlifting again, but I've gotten on this powerlifting train and can't seem to get off.

"The trouble about always trying to preserve the health of the body is that it is so difficult to do without destroying the health of the mind."~GK Chesterton

Edited by Browser on 05-01-20 03:46 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

Re: Starting to learn the Olympic lifts - what complementary strength work?
05-01-20 08:41 PM - Post#897537    

• Browser Said:

That makes a lot of sense. I definitely think that I've got some mobility or flexibility issues, but also some "not strong enough in this position" issues.

I'm so far working the lifts in this first cycle of the program Dan posted above in the split styles, but I'm spending a little time before and after working on the squat positions with a stick, light weight, or goblet squat with a kettlebell.

05-02-20 06:47 PM - Post#897583    

That's really great info. The distance from my elbow to the tip of my middle finger is 8 inches longer than the distance from my deltoids to my elbows which I think has a lot to do with my struggles with the rack position.

05-11-20 12:55 PM - Post#897896    

Finished my DIY technique bar yesterday. Picture attached.

I used the plans from here:

https://barbell-logic.com/diy-training-bar-and- plates/

It's basically a piece of black pipe with layers of different diameter PVC pipe on the ends to simulate the sleeves. I didn't make mine the "split sleeve" version on that page because my PVC didn't spin much at all once I got it in place. I also don't really have all the tools to do a proper job of it.

Still, this is working great as a warm-up bar, and for putting some steps in between broom stick and empty bar during this learning phase. I'm snatching the 20kg bar pretty comfortably now, and have even been able to add a small amount of weight, though I had to bring my grip in a little narrower than optimal to accommodate my right wrist. Hopefully over time that will improve and I can gradually spread them out.

07-02-20 04:30 PM - Post#899860    

A couple of months ago in this thread I asked for some advice on Olympic lifting, and Dan generously provided his Easy Strength for the O Lifts program. I've followed the program for 2 months, and would like to report how it went.

In short, I really enjoyed this training program. I have really come to love training the Olympic lifts. I actually look forward to training sessions. I am still very much a casual O lifter, and with the pandemic I've had to go it alone on my learning curve, but I've made some satisfying (to me) progress with the snatch and clean and jerk. I've had some physical improvement in nagging injuries that were bothering me before I started, but some challenges remain. Many many thanks to Dan for providing the program and advice.

Some more details below.

Where I started.
You can get an idea of where I started from in the first few posts of this thread. In short, not very strong and not very skilled in the O lifts, but I really wanted to learn. With the snatch, I was starting with a broomstick. With the clean and jerk, I was starting with the empty bar.

How closely did I follow the program?
Very closely in the first month. I stuck to the days, and working sets and reps as prescribed. However, I probably put in a lot more volume on warmup sets and reps than would be typical of a more experienced O lifter in each session, just to get myself mobile and ready for the work sets. I think Dan once wrote somewhere that the "warmup is the workout" and I definitely felt that way. On some of those days I skipped the loaded carries/sled pulls; I probably did the carries 3 out of 5 days per week.

In the second month my work got really busy and for 2 weeks I had to reduce my training days to 3 per week. I don't feel like this harmed any progress I made. Also near the last 2 weeks I didn't follow the prescribed reps and sets as closely. I just went for 9-10 total good working reps in the snatch and 3-5 good working reps in the clean and jerk. I always followed a heavier or PR day with a lighter day. I stuck with weights I knew I could make. I had some misses, but not chasing PRs, just due to technical faults (mostly with letting the bar get out in front too much). If I had a great lift that felt really good, I'd call it a day; I wanted that good feeling to stick for the next day. If I had a day I was feeling off or slow, I'd just stick to light loads, and tell myself I'd be back again the next day.

The only thing I haven't done from Dan's suggested post is the mock meet. I think I might give that a shot this weekend.

Did I get better?
Definitely yes. Especially in the snatch. When I started just putting a broomstick in the overhead snatch position was difficult because it was requiring work from muscles that had not previously been put to that kind of use, especially in my upper back. I was also starting with nagging tendon issues in my right shoulder and wrist. So I had to go very very light in the snatch. I made a DIY technique bar from Home Depot parts, which helped a lot.

When I started I was also split snatching and cleaning. At 5 weeks in I started transitioning to squat snatching and cleaning; I can definitely get under the bar faster and more consistently in the squat style. I had to start over with the weight on the squat snatch, but I'm definitely getting better. I've comfortably squat snatched up to 55 lbs. and cleaned and jerked 95 lbs. On the clean and jerk, the jerk is the challenge right now, since I can easily power clean and front squat 95, and I've pressed over 95 in the past. I don't feel like I've stalled on anything, and more time will yield more progress.

For technical learning, I referred to pointers in From the Ground Up and Oleksiy Torokhtiy's YouTube videos.

The tendon issues in my right shoulder improved significantly during this time. I had been living with pain in that shoulder for years, and now I have next to none. The shoulder feels way more solid and stable. I consider that alone to make this experience worth it.

My core and upper back strength have improved. I haven't lost or gained weight, but I've tightened up a little around the middle. Pants that didn't fit that well four months ago fit now.

Any challenges?
My right wrist still presents issues. Pressure on the wrist or on the heel of my palm causes discomfort and pain, but I have decent wrist flexibility. I'm pretty sure it's from work. I'm a lawyer and I'm writing and mousing on the computer all day. But even the wrist is slowly getting better. I use wrist wraps and do some wrist curls/wrist roller to warm them up, and ibuprofen if they feel especially sensitive.

What now?
I want to keep training the O lifts this way, since it's been working for me. I am thinking about substituting 1 or 2 days of the week with basic strength training - probably a squat, some kind of press, and power cleans. But no other changes.

At some point I think I'll have to seek out some technical coaching advice, but the pandemic is making that difficult. I'm not ready to go back into a gym with a bunch of other people, yet. So I think about Bill Starr's essay on teaching himself the split snatch: "It can be done if the will to do so is there."

07-02-20 05:16 PM - Post#899861    

Great thread. How would this go down with kettlebells?

07-02-20 05:26 PM - Post#899862    

• Matt_T Said:

There seems to be some good info on applying the Easy Strength template to kettlebells at this thread: https://www.davedraper.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/37141/

07-03-20 04:19 AM - Post#899875    

• BBobb Said:

Thanks Bob, I recall seeing the thread mentioned. My question wasn't so much around the 'Easy' element of the programme above, more whether it is worth doing for my goals given the limits of the equipment available. Through the summer that is sprint faster.

I bought a load of KBs prior to the birth of our second couple years ago, naturally very glad I did since lock down descended, and I'm enjoying the difference in training but I'm never sure given the difference in weight.

Speed is generally OK so maybe I'm worried over nothing.

07-03-20 08:28 AM - Post#899882    

I'm no expert, but it sounds like you've done some solid work here, Bob. Congratulations.

Thanks to everyone who makes this forum so useful and such a good place to be.

07-03-20 11:23 AM - Post#899895    

Thank you for such a complete and honest review. I am rarely surprised when people make progress by adhering to the principles. Certainly, you weren't "perfect," but you sure did a nice job getting life and lifting combined.

Daniel John Just handing down what I was handed down... Make a Difference. Live. Love. Laugh. Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude) Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk. Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth. Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights. Reread great books. Say thank you

Starting to learn the Olympic lifts - what complementary strength work?
07-14-20 12:11 PM - Post#900290    

Started this program yesterday. Excited to learn the lifts. Reading From the Ground Up was a refreshing corrective to much of what you find online about the O lifts. People acting like you need to pass a licensing exam before attempting your first snatch.

I am challenging myself to go through this program once or twice WITHOUT reading/watching anything more about the O-lifts online.

Edited by Roger Clarvin on 07-14-20 12:12 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

08-20-20 02:16 PM - Post#901614    

Finished five weeks of this. I've now switched to a three-day-a-week oly program for scheduling reasons, but I found the frequency of this program invaluable for gaining a foothold in terms of flexibility. Hitting the positions nearly every day really seemed to work for prying my hips and shoulders open. I had actually wondered whether it was even possible for me to hit the bottom position of the snatch. Turns out it is, and how fun and satisfying it is to hit it correctly! Relatedly, a long-running left shoulder issue has begun to clear up after around 9 years of trying every other damn thing.

Thanks for putting this out there. I'm hooked (until I get hurt or see a shiny object; know thyself).

08-20-20 05:05 PM - Post#901619    

Again, thanks for the feedback. It really helps.
And...good job!!!

Daniel John Just handing down what I was handed down... Make a Difference. Live. Love. Laugh. Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude) Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk. Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth. Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights. Reread great books. Say thank you