02-15-20 11:28 AM - Post#894232    

Since about mid-November I've been "park benching" with a variation on the Tonic Workout that Dan posted a while ago:

• Mobility Work
• 15-25 Goblet Squats w/Pause at Bottom
• 15-25 Pull-Ups
• 15-25 Dips
• 15-25 Bodyweight Deadlifts (170)
• Farmer's Walk
  

Most of the time I also a run, alternating 1 minute job, 1 minute run until I hit a mile.

It's been working well so, naturally I'm looking to change it...

In the interest of "same but different," my idea was to focus on inching up my deadlift, using an easy strength approach - 3 sets of 5 with a weight until it feels easy. Everything else would stay the same.

The issue is, thanks to some general idiocy when I was younger, I have a balky lower back. The times I've tried to do heavier traditional deadlifts, I inevitably end up tweaking it. Trap Bar deadlifts seem fine, so I thought about sticking to those, but I know Dan is a fan of rack pulls as well. If my goal is to get stronger overall without tweaking something which would be the better option?





Edited by Arsenio Billingham on 02-15-20 11:33 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

02-15-20 11:36 AM - Post#894233    

Why not both?

It Is Better To Be Stronger Than You Look, Than Look Stronger Than You Are My Weights Are In Freedom Units DEADLIFTS RULE!! =[[[[[[--------]]]]]]=

02-15-20 11:53 AM - Post#894235    

I literally was about to post on Binary thinking.

Here's the thing: you have a history of injury. Whatever does NOT hurt "wins." My issue with rack pulls, and I love them, is that DOMS is through the roof. The load and simplicity combine to sneak up on you.

Whatever keeps you on the path.

Daniel John Just handing down what I was handed down... Make a Difference. Live. Love. Laugh. Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude) Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk. Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth. Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights. Reread great books. Say thank you

Trap Bar Deadlift or Rack Pulls?
02-15-20 01:08 PM - Post#894240    

TBDLs are easier on the lumbars, because they allow the torso to be in a more upright position. So, if you're worried about lower back vulnerability, I would think they'd be a better choice.

Be strong. Be in shape. Be a man among men, regardless of your age or circumstances.

Edited by AAnnunz on 02-15-20 01:38 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

02-15-20 01:22 PM - Post#894241    

Sounds like the trap bar is the best option for the OP. Funny this came up, as I'm planning to switch from a low rack pull to the trap bar for a spring 40 day. Plenty of coaches seem to like the trap bar as a one stop shop for the lower body. I've never spent time with it, so I'm curious to see how it works for me.

02-15-20 01:48 PM - Post#894243    

As an aside, I think the Trap Bar could and should be the foundation of a compact home gym. I would also include a Hungarian Core Blaster and either a pair or more likely a single dumbbell, preferably a thick handle dumbbell.

That's it. More equipment is always possible but not necessary.

Mark it Zero.

Trap Bar Deadlift or Rack Pulls?
02-15-20 02:23 PM - Post#894245    

I also have issues with my lower back. I'm feeling pretty good by alternating trap bar deadlifts with rack pulls. For me, the TBDL is more taxing than the rack pull. On the rack pull I start +/- an inch below my knee. My understanding of the rack pull is that the starting position is between an inch below the knee to an inch above the knee depending on what the trainee(?) is comfortable with. I think getting a good hinge is more important than starting depth(?). Hope that made sense.

Edited by jold on 02-15-20 02:27 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

02-15-20 03:07 PM - Post#894247    

I think the TB is a very good piece of equipment to train the PC and is easier on the lumbar area with the weight being distributed more efficiently.

One can also set it down on blocks or (if you have one that has the raised handles) to get closer to a rack pull or shorten the ROM.

Straight bar pulls (even off the higher rack) are just a bit tougher on the low back because of the ROM the weight shifts a bit more forward to get out over them knees...!

Be yourself. Everyone else is taken

Trap Bar Deadlift or Rack Pulls?
02-15-20 04:16 PM - Post#894251    

I don't live in your body so I can't really say which one's your better go-to.
Man, if I lived in some other fool's body I'd eat like a total pig. Falling down drunk in my underwear smoking a big cigar.
I'd pity the fool, though.

Life's too short to worry about longevity.

Edited by Neander on 02-15-20 04:17 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

Re: Trap Bar Deadlift or Rack Pulls?
02-15-20 04:35 PM - Post#894252    

• Arsenio Billingham Said:

I'd say that 99% of the programs I've ever tried were much worse than this gem above.

"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums. It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable. Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow. Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't." Dan Martin

Edited by iPood on 02-15-20 04:35 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

02-16-20 07:21 AM - Post#894258    

So for me when I do trap bar DLs it seems that I hit the legs more than the back. Almost like I'm doing a standing leg press.

02-16-20 09:46 AM - Post#894264    

• JDII Said:

Yes, I can feel it in the quads more than oly bar pulls as the weight is more centered down thru the hips.
If I use a shoe with a slight heel, (shifting me a bit forward) it also changes the mechanics a bit too.

Be yourself. Everyone else is taken

Re: Trap Bar Deadlift or Rack Pulls?
02-16-20 09:51 AM - Post#894265    

• jold Said:

Depends on your goal(s).

To build erectors, hams, and glutes, start at least an inch below the knees. For upper back and traps, below and above the knees are effective, but I don't understand why one would choose either over heavy rows and power shrugs, unless they are working around a lower back injury or have a mobility issue.

For deadlift assistance/weak point training, powerlifters often set the bar just below their deadlift sticking point. That's usually well below the knees (around mid shin). Some lifters also like to overload the bar, then pull from above the knees to improve lockout, grip strength, and/or ability to strain, but I found these to be overkill. (Great ego builders though. I'd be lying if I said I never impressed myself by loading 150 lbs above my deadlift PR on the bar, then hitching it up three inches to lockout.)

Be strong. Be in shape. Be a man among men, regardless of your age or circumstances.

Edited by AAnnunz on 02-17-20 09:27 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

Re: Trap Bar Deadlift or Rack Pulls?
02-16-20 10:53 AM - Post#894270    

• AAnnunz Said:

Exactly what I did. The shorter ROM did not tax me to the point of reg deads, but I was still able to train that less advantageous point.
I would also at times use a weight release system from top pins that slipped out of the way and slowly lower a heavy load down onto pins.

• Quoting:

Right, but I might caution that younger trainees or ones new to heavy pulling, should take time to train the tendons and ligaments (takes months) with lighter weights to strengthen those areas, even though one is capable of heaving heavy loads off the pins.

Be yourself. Everyone else is taken

02-16-20 11:04 AM - Post#894274    

Before I made a power rack for my home gym we would do deadlift partials. It was a three man lift. We would get the bar up to the completed point, then the lifter would lower it down to the sticking point and then pull it back up.

Because it was an overload, there would only be one or at the most two reps. We would then lower the bar to the deck with as much resistance as possible.

It worked. And as was mentioned earlier, just working on the deadlift is where it's at.

Mark it Zero.

Re: Trap Bar Deadlift or Rack Pulls?
02-16-20 11:17 AM - Post#894276    

• iPood Said:

I wish I could take credit for this, but really it's a "stew" of various things the Dans and others have posted here. Still, it has been really good for me anyway - I feel better and move better, and adding in the run at the end seems to tie things together nicely. Doing bodyweight conventional deadlifts seems to be "good" for me, and knock on wood my back feels pretty good. Maybe the answer is to just keep doing what I've been doing (resisting the trap we all seem to fall victim to of "It was so good I stopped doing it") and tossing in the occasional heavy trap-bar deadlift or rack pull for variety.

02-16-20 11:40 AM - Post#894279    

• DanMartin Said:

Been using trap bar for couple months and last week made a Hungarian Core Blaster. Funny that just past few days been thinking just this; only equipment needed but change that dumbbell to be a loadable handle one for suitcase carries.

For the issue of where the load is with the trap bar, if you put attention on "holding alignment" without bar contact cues, you can just set up anywhere in a wide range and do anything from stiff legged dl to back squat or even front squat alignment and the weight gets distributed accordingly. For me, I've found that if I try to go front squat alignment I tend to butt wink enough to cause pain later, so I'm probably approximately in high bar squat alignment. Want to get as much quad work in there as possible because the Blaster is my DL substitute.

02-16-20 09:14 PM - Post#894291    

• DanMartin Said:

That's interesting to me, because my main training equipment is an original Trap Bar, and a pair of IronMind HuskyHandle DBs.

02-17-20 08:12 PM - Post#894338    

I do rackpull, because I don't have a trap bar :-)

My training log

02-17-20 09:09 PM - Post#894353    

• GeoffreyLevens Said:

I always found the joy of the trap bar is that you don't have to worry about anything like that, you just bend down and pick it up and repeat.

Also I totally regret getting rid of mine.

A trap bar and a couple of kettlebells and a pullup bar is a helluva home gym. (now I just have KBs and rings)

Log

Trap Bar Deadlift or Rack Pulls?
02-18-20 12:07 AM - Post#894362    

It’s nice to be able to execute some shrugs after deadlifts and the Trap bar is great for that.

But it’s not a deadlift and adding SLDL’s to the mix is a must for me now and again.

I’ve thrown out the deadlifting.

Nice legs-shame about the face

Edited by Andy Mitchell on 02-18-20 12:08 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

02-18-20 12:09 AM - Post#894363    

I like to do SLDL’s with the barbell.

Nice legs-shame about the face

02-18-20 08:00 AM - Post#894371    

Generally, I think the trap bar deadlift is a "better" choice of the two. Longer range of motion, more musculature worked etc.

However, if you're going to do a deadlift variation and a squat variation in the same workout/program, I'd choose the rack pull or the SLDL.

If you'd still like to do the trap bar deadlift, I'd replace the squats (or maybe some of them) with that.

"My grandma Olga, a famous Finnish Powerlifter, once told me, 'Little one, take care of your gastrointestinal tract and it'll take care of you.' Then she struck me with some salted herring." - TC Luoma

02-18-20 11:32 AM - Post#894380    

To digress a bit. I think the SLDL, particularly if the lifter stands on an elevated platform, is the penultimate exercise for the posterior chain. No exercise works more tissue/musculature. The dead-hang power clean is close, but it's not the same.

However, no exercise is done incorrectly as much as the SLDL. And...because of that, it causes a lot of injuries and faulty results.

To digress even further, I also believe the crazy bastardization of the power clean has made that fine posterior chain, total body exercise problematic for most trainee's.

All of that said, if you do not have the inclination to do the SLDL, dead-hang power clean and power clean correctly, don't do them at all. You can get all that you need for posterior chain work from swings, deadlifts and shrugs. (Preferably heavy dumbbell shrugs!)

End of rant.

Mark it Zero.

Trap Bar Deadlift or Rack Pulls?
02-18-20 01:03 PM - Post#894381    

• DanMartin Said:

I know Dr. Ken would agree.
I'll digress a bit with you Dan.
I used the SLDL some..., but not as much as I used the RDL. (a bit of a different mule but it worked well for me) And I did it quite a bit standing on blocks as you mentioned. My low back would get hammered from reg conventionals, but I sure felt my glutes and hams working on the RDL's.
I would also say, that one does not have to use a great deal of weight either, in that/those exercises.

Be yourself. Everyone else is taken

Edited by BntLgr on 02-18-20 01:04 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

Re: Trap Bar Deadlift or Rack Pulls?
02-18-20 01:33 PM - Post#894384    

• BntLgr Said:

One exercise Dr. Ken and I differed on was the Good Morning. During my salad days I used the wide stance GM with great success in toughening up my lower back, hips and glutes.

I'd wrap a towel around the bar and get busy. 285 x 5 was tops for me. Going heavier was possible but I was pushing my squat and deadlift so the total load was starting to add up.

Mark it Zero.

02-18-20 05:47 PM - Post#894399    

I remember PJ Striet hand an interesting (good) variation of SLDL sitting down.

If one can watch Dr Ken doing SLDL’s they’ll learn something he was a very strong lifter.

Nice legs-shame about the face

02-18-20 05:51 PM - Post#894400    

• DanMartin Said:

You are the man.

Nice legs-shame about the face

02-18-20 06:04 PM - Post#894402    

Hey Dan, there seemed to be a few exercises that some of the PLers were doing that Ken kinda scoffed at. I know he did not seem to advocate the box squat much either. I can remember him saying it could pin the spine between the bar and the tailbone or some such.
He mentioned the trapbar in a few articles in HG as well and said it was a "good" piece, but he seemed to tout the squat and SLDL as the 2 of highest preference.

• Andy Mitchell Said:

I used to do a variation of a seated pull, but it worked the erectors moreso.

• Quoting:

Yes, I think #330x30 off a high block, was one of the exercises. Kevin Tolbert did #600 for some oddly high number.

Be yourself. Everyone else is taken

Trap Bar Deadlift or Rack Pulls?
02-19-20 09:51 AM - Post#894434    

SLDLs and especially good mornings are two of the lifts I've found more and more invasive as I age...simply too much stress on the lower back, even with good form. Still do light SLDLs for the stretch, but cannot use enough weight to grow glutes and hammies without risk. Full ROM good mornings are out of the question, even if I bend my legs a bit.

Not so sure good morning concerns are only an age thing, by the way. A lot of much younger powerlifters also feel GMs, although no doubt one of the best squat and deadlift assistance movements (and a staple of Westside Barbell's conjugate system), are too risky for high intensity work.

Be strong. Be in shape. Be a man among men, regardless of your age or circumstances.

Edited by AAnnunz on 02-19-20 09:57 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

Re: Trap Bar Deadlift or Rack Pulls?
02-19-20 10:09 AM - Post#894436    

• AAnnunz Said:

Agree 100%. In fact squats and deadlifts are the ONLY training stress I put on my lower back. Heavy benches tax the lower back too. Anything else puts me over the edge and I can't recover and start hurting. I do love snatch grip deadlifts with straps on occasion though, but I do those instead of, not in addition to, regular conventional DLs. Sometimes single leg SLDLs with a dumbbell or kettlebell feel good really focusing on the stretch and glute contraction.

"The trouble about always trying to preserve the health of the body is that it is so difficult to do without destroying the health of the mind."~GK Chesterton

Edited by Browser on 02-19-20 10:11 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

02-19-20 11:49 AM - Post#894440    

I take care of my low back - hips and hamstrings with Glute Ham Raises and Ukrainian deadlifts - with different set and rep schemes throughout the year. Then the odd traditional deadlift sessions for the groove. But I'm trying to keep a "happy back" more than worrying about a double BW deadlift at 71. The only regular deadlifts I do are done double overhand on the 2" thick IM Axle or 2 3/8" thick bar - which is self limiting as to weight. And my back feels good.

02-19-20 12:00 PM - Post#894441    

If I did not compete in powerlifting I would not deadlift at all.

"The trouble about always trying to preserve the health of the body is that it is so difficult to do without destroying the health of the mind."~GK Chesterton

02-19-20 12:03 PM - Post#894442    

• Browser Said:

I'm with you.

Mark it Zero.

Re: Trap Bar Deadlift or Rack Pulls?
02-19-20 02:02 PM - Post#894447    

• AAnnunz Said:

I tried those when WSB seemed to be the word. But honestly, I do believe certain guys are just better built for certain things. They did not do much if anything for me and I even set up the hanging chains off the rack and all.
2" deficit conventional pulls, were probably the closest thing to true magic for my build.

I also remember Dick Conner saying leg pressing, was a very good adjunct to his trainees deadlifts.

Be yourself. Everyone else is taken

02-19-20 03:55 PM - Post#894453    

• Browser Said:

What would it be your hinge movement of choice?

"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums. It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable. Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow. Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't." Dan Martin

Trap Bar Deadlift or Rack Pulls?
02-19-20 04:00 PM - Post#894454    

• iPood Said:

I would probably lose 50 pounds, walk a lot, and just do whatever felt good. Maybe very light snatches and clean and jerks. They cover every human movemenet at once and leave me feeling athletic and flexible. Plus they are self limiting, as Dan says.

"The trouble about always trying to preserve the health of the body is that it is so difficult to do without destroying the health of the mind."~GK Chesterton

Edited by Browser on 02-19-20 04:26 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

02-19-20 05:57 PM - Post#894461    

• Browser Said:

Deadlifting turned me from being an average veteran runner in my club, to one of the top 5 in the world at my distance. I trained like my rivals for the running, but DL was the thing nobody else was doing. And I never made my back sore while following easy-strength rules

Although to be fair, if you are a strength athlete and a lot bigger, the absolute loads on the back are going to be massively greater.

02-20-20 11:22 PM - Post#894521    

There is a long way between deadlifting to compete in powerlifting and deadlifting for health and general strength. I see no reason to get rid of all deadlifts for non-powerlifters, but I see lots of reasons to limit the load and volume, as well as experiment with different techniques (hint: double overhand, all the time).

02-21-20 01:06 AM - Post#894528    

I love Snatch Grip Rack Pull

My training log

02-21-20 08:33 AM - Post#894539    

• BrianBinVA Said:

Agreed. It is a rather common lift in everyday life with moving things around one's house, or at work. Why not have a little education/experience on how to properly bend the knees/waist etc.
I think a few people have been hurt doing the Saturday lifting house/yard work that never train a deadlift, than ones who exercise sanity using it.
I think the hurts come in more from ego taking hold and not simple lighter good training

Be yourself. Everyone else is taken

Trap Bar Deadlift or Rack Pulls?
02-21-20 09:36 AM - Post#894548    

I like the deadlift. I also had good coaching when I learned how to do the lift. There is a tendency once you start doing the lift to see how much you can deadlift. Ungood for the tyro non-power lifter.

Mark it Zero.

02-22-20 03:48 PM - Post#894620    

• BrianBinVA Said:

Given my issues, is there really a reason to go much heavier? I know we've said 2x bodyweight is a strength standard, but I seem to recall reading somewhere (I think it was Stuart McGill, but I could be making that up) that being able to deadlift bodyweight seemed to alleviate back pain, but after that there was a point of diminishing returns.

Incidentally, nature may have take care of upping the load for me - I weighed myself for the first time in about a few months and I'm up 5lbs, so may be time to add a few lbs to the bar anyway.

02-22-20 04:49 PM - Post#894621    

Not a big deal, but I am up to 315 for six sets of five in the Rack DL. I use a clean grip. What I am reminding myself, through DOMS (if that has value), is what a lat exercise this is.

Cramps...plus I do pull ups, so I am getting the double grip/lats whammy.

Daniel John Just handing down what I was handed down... Make a Difference. Live. Love. Laugh. Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude) Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk. Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth. Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights. Reread great books. Say thank you

Trap Bar Deadlift or Rack Pulls?
02-22-20 09:51 PM - Post#894633    

• Quoting:

I know, eh. More than any other lift, even the bench. Deads are good for what ails ya, providing you don't do 'em in a way that causes more ailing.

I mean, if some of these fools (I've done it too!) approached the squat the way they approach the dead they'd get all banged up there too.

The semi stiff legged dead, I'm using those again in a 20 rep squat workout and keeping the dead poundage the same as the squat one, but for 15 reps. That seems to work out okay, and no, I don't round my lower back at the bottom in the ssdl.

I like 'em a lot!

Life's too short to worry about longevity.

Edited by Neander on 02-22-20 09:52 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

02-22-20 10:17 PM - Post#894634    

• DanMartin Said:

Dan, how should the SLDL be performed?

Re: Trap Bar Deadlift or Rack Pulls?
02-23-20 03:04 AM - Post#894636    

• Neander Said:

DOMS must be REALLY awful afterwards.

"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums. It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable. Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow. Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't." Dan Martin

02-23-20 03:07 AM - Post#894637    

• LeePinac Said:

We should have some sort of "code" to differentiate between Straight Legged Deadlift and Stiff Legged ones.

"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums. It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable. Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow. Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't." Dan Martin

Trap Bar Deadlift or Rack Pulls?
02-23-20 09:33 AM - Post#894641    

• Arsenio Billingham Said:

IMHO, no and if one has "issues" as you say, or, is more prone to having problems, then why push the issue into an area of higher risk!? ie: Keeping reps in the tank so to speak seems wise/ limit weights or singles that allow only one (or even a few) all out effort(s) if not competing, why?

• Quoting:

But for what, specifically?
Most of one's everyday average daily feats would most likely be a great deal under that weight.
A box of books, a child, a case of soda/beer.
"More is better" always seems to be attached to nearly everything in life, but in fact is it always the most effective approach!?

I will be the first to admit, I have always hunted and pushed (probably without a lot of common sense) a high DL number/ and yes have tweaked my back more than the number of my fingers and toes over the years, and probably did not help my hernia) But if you are asking for advice in trying to maintain health, training longevity, stability and staying more injury free, then erring on the side of caution seems more sensible to me.

Be yourself. Everyone else is taken

Edited by BntLgr on 02-23-20 09:43 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

Trap Bar Deadlift or Rack Pulls?
02-23-20 10:14 AM - Post#894642    

• LeePinac Said:

What do you mean I'm not Dan????

I rather liked this one
Single Leg Deadlift- The best Exercise you are not doing





Edited by GeoffreyLevens on 02-24-20 11:01 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.