01-07-08 02:51 PM - Post#393025    

• Bill Keyes Said:

Thx.
That stuff was magic for my foot injury, and I plan to use it again if need be, so I was curious.
jej

Re: Vitamin D and Joint Pain
01-07-08 03:07 PM - Post#393029    

• Bill Keyes Said:

I have no cartilage left in my right knee, so maybe that is why it didn't work for me either!!I think I am going to end up on Celebrex , even after having the two hand surgery's:-(...Most likely start back to work next week and especially my right hand still hurts!!

Obsessed is a word the lazy use to describe the dedicated!!!

01-08-08 04:47 AM - Post#393341    

Don't be a hero about it, though, AB. If you're hurting, you're hurting. Don't push it unnecessarily.

Bill2 Integrity is what you do when you think nobody is watching.

01-08-08 08:38 AM - Post#393391    

Thanks Bill....Sick pay is up so have to get back to the grind!!:-(....Like it or not!!

Obsessed is a word the lazy use to describe the dedicated!!!

01-08-08 03:03 PM - Post#393634    

Low vitamin D levels linked to increased heart disease risk

By Stephen Daniells

01/08/2008- Low levels of vitamin D could increase the risk of cardiovascular events like heart attack, heart failure or stroke by 62 per cent, suggests a new study.

And the outlook could be even worse for those with high blood pressure and low blood levels of vitamin with a doubling of the risk, report researchers in the journal Circulation - the Journal of the American Heart Association.

"The possibility of a causal link between vitamin D deficiency and cardiovascular disease is supported by biological plausibility, the demonstration of a temporal association, and the finding of a dose response between 25-OH D deficiency and risk," wrote lead author Thomas Wang from Harvard Medical School.

"These data raise the possibility that treatment of vitamin D deficiency, via supplementation or lifestyle measures, could reduce cardiovascular risk."

Interest in vitamin D has been increasing in recent months with an increasing number of studies linking the vitamin to protection against osteoporosis and certain cancers. There is also evidence that a higher intake of vitamin D may be helpful in preventing and treating high blood pressure, fibromyalgia, diabetes mellitus, multiple sclerosis and rheumatoid arthritis.

The researchers used data from the 1739 participants in the Framingham Offspring Study (average age 59 years, 55 per cent women, all Caucasian). None of the subjects had any heart health problems at the start of the study and the researchers used blood samples to measure levels of the 'storage' form of the vitamin, 25-dihydroxyvitamin D (25(OH)D).

Wang and co-workers found that 28 per cent of subjects had blood levels of 25(OH)D lower than 15 nanograms per millilitre (ng/mL). Over 5.4 years of follow-up, 120 people developed a cardiovascular event, and people with the lower vitamin D levels were 62 per cent more likely to develop these events than people with 25(OH)D levels over 15 ng/mL.

Although levels above 30 ng/mL are considered optimal for bone metabolism, only 10 per cent of the participants had levels in this range.

People with low vitamin D levels and high blood pressure (hypertension), defined as having a systolic and diastolic blood pressure (BP) greater than 140 and 90 mmHg, were at an increased risk, were found to be at a 113 per cent increased risk than those with normal blood pressure and higher vitamin D levels.

"We found that people with low vitamin D levels had a higher rate of cardiovascular events over the five-year follow-up period," said Wang. "These results are intriguing and suggestive but need to be followed up with further study."

"Vitamin D receptors have a broad tissue distribution that includes vascular smooth muscle and endothelium, the inner lining of the body's vessels," he added. "Our data raise the possibility that treating vitamin D deficiency, via supplementation or lifestyle measures, could reduce cardiovascular risk.

"What hasn't been proven yet is that vitamin D deficiency actually causes increased risk of cardiovascular disease. This would require a large randomized trial to show whether correcting the vitamin D deficiency would result in a reduction in cardiovascular risk."

Calls for raising the recommended daily allowance (RDA) of the vitamin have been growing after reports that higher intakes could protect against osteoporosis and certain cancers. Consumer awareness of these health links is also increasing with some outlets reporting massive boosts in sales.

Vitamin D refers to two biologically inactive precursors - D3, also known as cholecalciferol, and D2, also known as ergocalciferol. The former is produced in the skin on exposure to UVB radiation (290 to 320 nm). The latter is derived from plants and only enters the body via the diet, from consumption of foods such as oily fish, egg yolk and liver.

Recent studies have shown, however, that sunshine levels in some northern countries are so weak during the winter months that the body makes no vitamin D at all, leading some to estimate that over half of the population in such countries have insufficient or deficient levels of the vitamin.

Moreover, increased skin pigmentation also reduces the effect of UVB radiation meaning darker skinned people are more at risk.

"The findings [of the new study] may have potentially broad public health implications, given the high prevalence of vitamin D deficiency in developed countries, the contribution of lifestyle and geography to vitamin D status, and the ease, safety, and low cost of treating vitamin D deficiency," concluded the researchers.

Both D3 and D2 precursors are hydroxylated in the liver and kidneys to form 25- hydroxyvitamin D (25(OH)D), the non-active 'storage' form, and 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D (1,25(OH)2D), the biologically active form that is tightly controlled by the body.

Abstract: http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/ CIRCULATIONAHA.107.706127v1

Full report: http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/reprint/CIRCULATI ONAHA.107.706127v1

01-08-08 04:56 PM - Post#393683    

Life Extension has a plain-English version today:

Life Extension: Framingham researchers find heart disease linked to vitamin D deficiency

01-08-08 08:27 PM - Post#393751    

Hi guys and gals! I've rea through this thread and I've never heard that Vit D eases pain. I'm going to talk to my doc about that on Thursday and see what she recommends. This might just be my ticket for my ankle pain.

I'm currently taking a multivitamin liquid that is NASTY, but fortunately you can mix it in juice. Not so nasty, but not great. I'll look at it and see how much D it has.

01-08-08 09:29 PM - Post#393800    

I have some cholecalciferol 400 IU and plan to take 2 a day for now. Thanks for the suggestions Laree, Bill et al, as could use some help with the low back etc. I'm sure it's just arthritis, and naproxen sodium helped beautifully when I took 1 Alieve 2 wks ago, but I really can't make myself take these very often.

01-08-08 09:32 PM - Post#393805    

• Codybear40 Said:

It won't have enough. And it won't be the right kind,I can almost guarantee it :) Multi-vitamins aren't too great for giving you therapeutic levels of things.

Good news is, vitamin D3 is cheap.

01-08-08 09:42 PM - Post#393812    

What are ya'll taking your vitamin D with? Not fat-free food, I hope.

"When [defeat] comes, I won't even notice. I'll be too busy looking good."

01-08-08 10:19 PM - Post#393825    

• Elfling Said:

I dunno. I use a Super Spectrum multi that provides 500iu per dose.

jej

Vitamin D and Joint Pain
01-09-08 07:03 AM - Post#393885    

• Yeti Said:

I add veg oil to my AM BB + oatmeal that should help with absorption. I don't think Vitamin D is a problem absorption wise is it?

01-09-08 07:36 AM - Post#393891    

• Codybear40 Said:

Give it a try anyway. MDs are not the best source of dietary cures.

01-09-08 09:42 AM - Post#393939    

I'm entering my third week of 6,000+I.U. of Vitamin D3. I haven't noticed the "night and day" difference in my joints or pain that Laree felt...but she was Vitamin D deficient. I have noticed a reduction in the swelling of my fingers. I still have joint pain but I have high hopes. If I don't notice a significant improvement in another week, I'm going to drop down to 2,000 I.U. daily...just as a maintenance thing. 2,000 I.U. daily is still quite a bit higher than the RDA and I don't get a lot of sun exposure, despite being in Florida.

"I'm in good shape for the shape I'm in." "Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me." John 14:6

01-09-08 09:30 PM - Post#394239    

my friend who has fibromyalgia (or the symptoms thereof) was tested recently by her doctor for a vitamin D deficiency after I told her about this information. in spite of taking a vitamin D supplement with her calcium, she was extraordinarily deficient. Doc put her on 50,000IU capsules taken 1 capsule twice a week for 6 months. she'll get her levels checked every month or every 2 months. i'm very hopeful that this will help her with what is quite debilitating pain.

BEAST MODE. NOW.

01-09-08 09:57 PM - Post#394257    

• michelle Said:

Wow, that's ayachts!

I really hope that works, too. To tell the truth, the reason I went to this doc in the first place was to get him to review my past 10 years' blood tests to see if he could spot some kind of autoimmune problem causing constant pain. Instead, the Vitamin D worked in under a month, and fixing the hormone issues took care of the rest a month later.

01-10-08 12:44 PM - Post#394479    

The bone doc put Dorothy on 50,000 IU of D once a week until the scrib runs out. She went two days ago for a blood test. I guess we will hear about the results when Dorothy goes back to the bone doc.

It don't matter

01-10-08 12:51 PM - Post#394481    

I have started on 1000 IU of D because of hand issues. I guess 150 years of wrench turning, and lifting has started to show. So far everything else is OK (banging head on floor) he he knocking on wood.

It don't matter

01-10-08 08:02 PM - Post#394712    

I'm on my second week of 8k per day. I believe its working. I plan to do another week at 8k then I will reduce down to 6 for a week or two.

"my joints are squealing like a truckload of pigs on their way to the Spam factory." Dave Draper

01-10-08 09:08 PM - Post#394741    

Vit D, Glucosamine/chondroitin, and msm. Try all 3 together, split between day and night. I think it's working for me. I added the D after reading Larees testimony. I'm convinced it has helped!

01-10-08 09:12 PM - Post#394742    

• stillenacht Said:

I can't take clucosamine and chondroitin. Combined or separate they both give me a terrible headache, though I do swear they work.

"my joints are squealing like a truckload of pigs on their way to the Spam factory." Dave Draper

Vitamin D: Deficiency and health
01-11-08 05:35 AM - Post#394815    

• stillenacht Said:

My back feels significantly (90%) better after just a few days on the Vit D, even this morning after having done 4 sets of power cleans last night, with 95#, 6 reps touch and go. I dx'd myself as sacroileitis and probably a mild L45 radiculopathy on the right.

My total dose of D3 is 1200 IU daily. For those of you who are not responding to the megadoses, I'd suggest trying the lower dose 800 to 1600 IU /day), along with glucosamine and calcium. I can't see how you'd go wrong with that. I don't think my back relief is due to placebo effect, since pain is pain.

It's nice when a remedy is something that is good for you to be doing anyway! Ciao.

Edit: NSAID used: 1 alieve, 3 days ago. No tylenol, but I think the Vit D is sufficient for now.

Edited by f4tune81 on 01-11-08 05:40 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

Re: Vitamin D and Joint Pain
01-11-08 09:06 AM - Post#394860    

• f4tune81 Said:

I think it's a pretty extreme problem, actually. Why else would people be supplementing such high amounts?

Here's some info from www.westonaprice.org:

• In reply to:

So eat your butter and eggs.

"When [defeat] comes, I won't even notice. I'll be too busy looking good."

01-11-08 10:04 AM - Post#394906    

I always do.

It don't matter

01-13-08 02:19 PM - Post#395639    

EGADS!

Dr. Richard Nahas of Ottawa, Ont wrote an interesting letter to the editor of Canadian Family Physician.


http://www.cfp.ca/cgi/content/full/53/12 /2104-b

In this letter titled "Not enough Vitamin D coverage," he stated:


"I was somewhat surprised that this [information about Vitamin D, see below] would not have been boldly emblazoned on the cover of Canadian Family Physician. I have also been surprised that there is not more news coverage of this potentially monumental leap of medical progress. If vitamin D were a prescription drug, it might not have slipped so quickly out of front-page news. There is a large gap between research and practice that must be filled by our profession’s continuing education process and our public health system. These systems will be put to the test by this discovery. If doctors do not rapidly begin screening for and treating vitamin D deficiency, if this message is not broadcast over the airwaves until people are tired of hearing it, then our health care system will have done Canadians a grave disservice."


After studying the attached article , http://www.cfp.ca/cgi/content/full/53/5/ 841?ijkey=475d56b5ec56983 a24ca05909249971e6c6a2983



and the one from New England Journal of Medicine July, 2007
http://cme.nejm.org/cgi/cme/nejmcme_cours e;NJ200707193570327


(not available online but see abstract), I AGREE!


Thanks Laree, for making this a Must Reads Topic.

Bottom line: Take at least 800 IU of vitamin D per day. I am going to increase mine to 1200 IU/day.
If you prefer, being fat soluble vitamin, you could take roughly 6000 to 7000 IU of vitamin D at once, weekly. LOOK AT THE LIST OF BENEFITS NOTED IN THE ABOVE CANADIAN ARTICLE. LOOK AT THE NEW ENGLAND JOURNAL ARTICLE,IF YOU CAN GET IT (FROM LIBRARY ETC).


Matt

01-14-08 09:52 AM - Post#395905    

I realize that my experience is entirely anecdotal and not scientific but the efficacy of increased amounts of D3 was made obvious to me this weekend. I stopped the intake of D3 Thursday, since I would be in Daytona Beach working the Florida Cleft Palate Winter Symposium. After going four days without the increased D3...my joint and muscle pain returned with a vengeance.

It wasn't terribly obvious that the improvement had occurred but it was terribly obvious when I discontinued the vitamin.

It may also been because I worked my butt off this weekend, which involved a LOT of walking, schlepping equipment and hand work.

Wicked

"I'm in good shape for the shape I'm in." "Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me." John 14:6

01-14-08 10:31 AM - Post#395923    

• f4tune81 Said:

Yes. It would have been extensively and expensively advertised at the patient's expense.

• Wicked Willie Said:

Vitamin D3 worked. You didn't need a double-blind white-coated study to show the likes of the FDA.

01-14-08 12:04 PM - Post#395982    

• Laree Said:

we got her original lab results in the mail this weekend. the normal range for Vit D is 36-100-something (i think it was either in the 130's or the 160's). her's was 14. guess that explains the large dose.

BEAST MODE. NOW.

01-14-08 02:45 PM - Post#396099    

I went to buy more today at the store on my way out and someone cleared the shelf of it...The HBC girl is gonna order me more...At Publix they have a coupon in a special flyer you pick up in the store and then a machine that spits out a different coupon for the Sundown vit. on the shelf...you are allowed to use both so you get it for free!!!Me likes that!!

Obsessed is a word the lazy use to describe the dedicated!!!

Vitamin D: Deficiency and health
01-15-08 06:00 AM - Post#396329    

Here's the VIDEO based on the New England Journal of Medicine. Good, but not enough details about the benefits. I'm going to get my son to do a video for a service project...


VITAMIN D LECTURE

This is not just about joint pain, but significant degree of colon, breast, pancreatic cancer prevention, partial prevention of diabetes, possibly other chronic illnesses, immunologic problems. And we should do it anyway (children and adults: take 800 IU vitamin D daily).

Thanks,

Matt

01-16-08 05:25 PM - Post#397327    

Hi all! Greetings from Wisconsin, the lack-of-sunshine state. I'm actually the RN for the Osteoporosis Program at St. Mary's/Duluth Clinic. Vitamin D defiency NATIONWIDE is HUGE!!!! The scary thing about it is that people can have almost NON-EXISTENT vitamin D levels in their blood AND HAVE NO CLUE, CUZ THERE'S NO SYMPTOMS!!!!!! Please note: THE NEW GUIDELINES FOR VITAMIN D ARE 1,000 INTERNATIONAL UNITS DAILY!!!!! 400 IS NOT ENOUGH!!!!!!! I also advise EVERYONE, no matter where you live to GET YOUR VITAMIN D LEVEL CHECKED to make sure you're not deficient!!!! 95% of hip fractures in the elderly (and, NO, osteoporosis-aka "hip fracture" does NOT have to happen as you age!!!!) are vitamin D deficient!!!!!! Had they only had their vitamin D level checked, they could have prevented that hip fracture/osteoporosis!!!! !! Knowledge is power!!!
To recap:
1. 1,0000 IU vitamin D daily, religiously, for the rest of your life
2. EVERYONE get your vitamin D level checked,men, women, and, yes, even children. More and more vitamin D deficiency is being found in CHILDREN due to lack of sun exposure, which is pretty much the only way we get vitamin D, due to staying inside thanks to video games, computers.
Can you tell I"m very passionate about this???? I see WAY too much of this and it's totally PREVENTABLE!!!!!!!!

"I got it from my momma"

Vitamin D: Deficiency and health
01-16-08 05:38 PM - Post#397331    

Interesting. Good info, jordoll.

I'm still curious if the supplements are as bioavailable as cod liver oil, though. You have the oil base, EFAs and the purest form of vitamin A, which can't be too bad. Slurp slurp. Burp burp.

"When [defeat] comes, I won't even notice. I'll be too busy looking good."

Edited by Yeti on 01-16-08 06:22 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

01-17-08 10:45 AM - Post#397557    

Thanks Jordoll...Great info!!

Obsessed is a word the lazy use to describe the dedicated!!!

Vitamin D: Deficiency and health
01-17-08 11:05 AM - Post#397588    

This all makes me wonder why. Some time ago there was a phony scare about A&D overdosing. One book-writing MD actually stated that 8,000IU/day was the maximum Vitamin A dose anyone should take, and horrific disease awaited anyone beginning at the 8,001 IU/day level. In supermarkets Vitamin A&D combination capsules were hard to find though Vitamin A-only capsules were on the shelves. Vitamin D-only capsules were almost non-existent. Fortunately Vitamin Shoppe and other retail outlets were not caught up in this mania.

There certainly is a lot of money in surgically treating vitamin deficiency diseases and in the related office visits and medications for same. And prevention benefits only the patient.

01-17-08 11:20 AM - Post#397597    

Some additional info: I attended a talk on vitamin D deficiency presented by an endocrinologist. He said in his 25 years of practice, he's only seen ONE case of vitamin D toxicity; that's how hard it is to get too much!!! I, personally, take 4,000 IU daily, cuz I see way too many hip fractures happen to people that are deficient, and it's not gonna happen to me, if I can help it! Well, actually, right now, my doc has me taking 50,000 units 3x/wk for 8 weeks, cuz, guess what: I'M DEFICIENT!!!! Even with taking 4,000 IU daily! Scary stuff!

"I got it from my momma"

01-17-08 11:34 AM - Post#397606    

Has anyone investigated the root cause of deficiency, i.e why such high amounts are needed to have any effect?

"When [defeat] comes, I won't even notice. I'll be too busy looking good."

01-17-08 11:42 AM - Post#397611    

When I just started with my new chiro, we got into the discusion of how I train(which he thinks I am nuts by the way)...and what supps I take...He cautioned me on the Vit D, I think his main gripe with it is because we get so much sunlite in these parts...and that got me thinking....Just a year ago and many years before I was a sun addict laying out or in my home tanning bed everyday of the week hardly ever missing one or the other,and since getting married and changing the course of my life that basically has stopped...I do lay out maybe average once or twice in two weeks time, and maybe for only a hour at a time...what a huge difference from a year ago...my point is within the last year is when all my arthritis has flared up to almost unbearable levels....You guys think that this may have something to do with it?....Being on the Vit D supps for a month and a half now has sure helped my back and knees(not my hands though)

Obsessed is a word the lazy use to describe the dedicated!!!

01-17-08 11:55 AM - Post#397619    

• Amazonblonde Said:

I wondered about that when you mentioned using a tanning lotion a while back; I hadn't known you weren't getting as much sun as before. I'll bet you had plenty of Vitamin D before and don't now.

01-17-08 12:04 PM - Post#397624    

Exactly...even though my skin is much healthier by using the lotions with bronzers in them,It would be wild that I hurt myself with the arthritis in mind by not getting all that sun anymore!!

I probably still get much more than your average person, but just not the direct sunlite I used too!!

I may have to go to the doc and ask for a Vit D test!!

Obsessed is a word the lazy use to describe the dedicated!!!

01-17-08 12:14 PM - Post#397632    

• Amazonblonde Said:

I would! I encourage everyone to get their level checked, like I said earlier. There is even defiency in California; we used to think anyone living north of the state of Georgia is at risk, now everyone, no matter where they live, is fair game.

"I got it from my momma"

01-17-08 12:16 PM - Post#397634    

• jordoll Said:

I do not know if this is true, but I have heard that vitamin E toxicity is really rare, vitamin D pretty unusual, but vitamin A is seen occasionally.

The most important test a lifter has to pass is the test of time. -Jon Cole

01-17-08 02:23 PM - Post#397693    

Good idea AB. I have found out that I'm short on D which supprised me.

It don't matter

01-24-08 07:20 PM - Post#400825    

Expanding on Trance's post above:

Low levels of vitamin D may increase the risk of heart disease and stroke by as much as 62 percent, scientists reported in a new study.

Michelle, how's your friend feeling these days? Any difference with the Vitamin D yet?

01-25-08 12:53 PM - Post#401057    

• Laree Said:

she says that at this point she can't really tell. it's only been three weeks but she's hopeful.

BEAST MODE. NOW.

02-09-08 08:22 PM - Post#407190    

[soapbox/]
Update: Report of link between low Vitamin D level, and cardiovascular events (angina, MI, etc). Good article last week in journal Circulation, with follow up of about 5000 people who were the offspring of people in the Framingham study in Boston area. The low Vitamin D (<15 ng/ml) subjects had approx. 1.5x the incidence of cardiovascular events over a 5 year period than all the rest who were >15 ng/ml. In my opinion 15 is a rather low level still (aiming for about 30). Also vitamin D lack was associated with high blood pressure. The incidence of low vitamin D levels was about 28%!

Sounds like a good idea, then to take your daily dose of 1000 IU vitamin D. Add up all your sources and try to be sure you get a total of at least 1000:

15 min in sun on a clear summer day: maybe 10,000 IU (!) (I couldn't find confirmatory reference for this, and a lot of factors play into that).

Centrum multiple vitamin: 400 IU
Centrum Silver: 400 IU
Some brands of calcium with D: 200 IU / tablet
Some vitamins for past 50 folks: up to 1000 IU (read labels to find out)
Vitamin D tabs: varies, 400 IU, 1000 IU available.
Milk: 8 oz has 25% or RDA (read: 100 IU, but actually we're not shootin for 400 IU a day, but rather 1000).

Also remember, you could be taking supplements and still be low. In my opinion you might want to ask your doctor for a Vitamin D level if:
1. You have a history of cancer. 2. You seldom are in the sunshine. 3. You have fatigue, myalgias, bone pain or weakness (other tests indicated here, too -- your doc should know). 4. You are over age 70. 5. You are pregnant (may help keep your baby from developing D deficiency before birth). 6. Hypertension. 7. Have weight loss or malabsorption. 8. Just want to know!

[/soapbox]

Matt

02-10-08 10:16 AM - Post#407279    

Thanks for the soapbox work, Matt.

02-10-08 05:59 PM - Post#407408    

Good info, Matt. Also, after getting the 25-OH vitamin D level checked, and if found to be deficient, it's important to get this level rechecked after 3 months of adequate supplementation, to make sure the level comes up appropriately. We can't assume it will come up. If, after 3 months, if still hasn't risen to "normal", then malabsorption issues should then be looked into further (e.g. celiac disease).

"I got it from my momma"

Vitamin D: Deficiency and health
03-10-08 03:06 PM - Post#418175    

Another vitamin D article:

The vitamin D miracle: Is it for real?

Re: Vitamin D: Deficiency and health
03-10-08 04:13 PM - Post#418212    

That was an outstanding overview, thanks.

Key points for me, things I've been wondering about:

Vitamin D is produced when exposed skin has a photochemical reaction to ultraviolet light rays from the sun. Nearly all the vitamin D circulating in our bodies is made this way, with a typical white-skinned person in a bathing suit under a noonday summer sun in Canada producing about 10,000 international units in 15 to 20 minutes. Non-whites need about five times longer to make the same amount, because the melanin in their skin acts as a sunscreen against UVB rays. During the fall and winter, sunlight at Canadian latitudes is too weak to cause any vitamin D production.

and

Toxicity has occurred after long-term exposure to massive amounts, ranging from 50,000 IU to 150,000 IU daily. Effects such as bone demineralization may occur with chronic daily doses exceeding 10,000 IU. No illnesses have been reported for doses under 3,800 IU daily.

03-10-08 04:19 PM - Post#418218    

I've been taking 50,000 units 3x/week for 12 weeks and my 25-OH vitamin D level only came up to 86; that's how hard it is to get too much.

"I got it from my momma"