Mike Robinson
Total Posts: 67
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06-28-06 05:26 PM - Post#214779
Reading Manor's signature I am inspired to read more info on training by Dr. Ken - especially those designed to put on muscle mass.
I did google him but not much came up.
Links to any sites with Dr. Ken's training advice would be appreciated.
- Mike
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Kyle Estle
Total Posts: 6254
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bulch
Total Posts: 4276
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www.cyberpump.com To get all the articles you need to subscribe but i think it's worth the few dollars if you are into HIT training.
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Mike Robinson
Total Posts: 67
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I just donated to Cyberpump and am in now. Thanks.
- Mike
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Chris McClinch
Total Posts: 8538
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Quote:
bulch said:
www.cyberpump.com To get all the articles you need to subscribe but i think it's worth the few dollars if you are into HIT training.
It's honestly worth it even if you generally dislike most training that would be described as HIT except for specific applications.
The more I eat and the heavier I train, the better my genetics get.
If you're not paraplegic and not squatting, please kick your own ass for me."
"Do you really think that the reason most guys don't have big arms is purely because of a lack of doing curls?" --Alwyn Cosgrove
"There is only one gram of carbs in STFD and no carbs at all in STFU." --Byron Chandler
"Use meaningful loads to achieve results." --Big Vic
http://www.stoneagefitnessconcepts.com |
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LarryKreeger
Total Posts: 1847
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I've read a lot of Dr Ken's stuff in Milo and the Hardgainer mags. His interest never was really gaining size, just strength. There was a long running series in Milo called something like "The Loft" and in it he describes different routines he and his training partner used. They used to get in these discussions over the routines because his training partner wanted to do more of a bodybuilding routine than Dr. Ken.
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Laree
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Andy Mitchell
Total Posts: 5269
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Quote:
LarryKreeger said:
His interest never was really gaining size, just strength.
Did he really say this? That suprises me.
Nice legs-shame about the face
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DanMartin
Total Posts: 20705
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Quote:
Andy said:
Quote:
LarryKreeger said:
His interest never was really gaining size, just strength.
Did he really say this? That suprises me.
When the Doc was playing football (high school, college and pro) his whole reason for being was to get bigger and stronger. He did that by lifting and eating like a savage. Even at his top weight, (230+) a sub 10 second 100 yard dash was always there.
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Pete-LV
Total Posts: 2003
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What? A man not interested in gaining size? Surely you jest! I always say there's nothing wrong with looking strong in addition to actually being strong! Although just appearing strong can be abvantageous in certain emergency situations. Of course, on the downside, this would be a detriment if you had to back up the look with some action! I believe in most cases, though, if you're strong, you will also appear to be so. Having said that, there's always exceptions to the general rule though!! I think some people's muscles are wound tighter or under more tension than the average person producing strength levels beyond their appearance! ;>)
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IB138
Total Posts: 9321
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Quote:
Andy said:
Quote:
LarryKreeger said:
His interest never was really gaining size, just strength.
Did he really say this? That suprises me.
According to the "Life in the Loft" series in Milo, Dr Ken was always more interested in strength while Jack wanted to do more bb'ing. However, even non-bodybuilders like more mass.
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Andy Mitchell
Total Posts: 5269
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Quote:
DanMartin said:
Quote:
Andy said:
Quote:
LarryKreeger said:
His interest never was really gaining size, just strength.
Did he really say this? That suprises me.
When the Doc was playing football (high school, college and pro) his whole reason reason for being was to get bigger and stronger. He did that by lifting and eating like a savage. Even at his top weight, (230+) a sub 10 second 100 yard dash was always there.
Actually re-reading what you wrote Larry I can understand the logic.
Nice legs-shame about the face
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Laree
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Quote:
Barney Shannon said:
According to the "Life in the Loft" series in Milo, Dr Ken was always more interested in strength while Jack wanted to do more bb'ing.
And that's true to this day. :~)
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Pete-LV
Total Posts: 2003
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I read, liked and agreed with this Dr. Ken article title: Sensible Training - A Logical Approach to Size and Strength http://www.cyberpump.com/preview/sense.html In my humble opinion now, the effectctive workout program Dr. Ken lists and the reasons stated for it are genius in it's simplicity. That's the kind of workout I favor. I believe it gives you outstanding results for the amount of time spent on it!! Good for people with tight schedules to keep! ;>) Pete
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Pete-LV
Total Posts: 2003
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"In my humble opinion now, the effectctive workout program Dr. Ken lists and the reasons stated for it are genius in it's simplicity." Whoops, that's supposed to read "effective" workout program. ;>)
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Manor
Total Posts: 6773
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I'll be returning to a Dr. Ken type workout I had done in the past after my vacation next week, where I gained enough muscle to win a "Most LBM gained" contest :) It will be a rough ride that I will take pleasure in doing. My wife Danièle said last night, "You know, we'll be 10 days without a workout." I told her "Hon, relax we'll recuperate and be refreshed." She hit the weights this morning :) Ain't life grand?
aka SAVAGE/JDIDAN/Dan the Protein Man
You can't choose your parents however you can choose your lifestyle
Earn your supplements
The most important stack you can do are big plates.- Sweatn |
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martin weston
Total Posts: 263
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I've tried the one set approach that Dr Ken laid out. It's good for a change, but personally I like to give more focus to fewer moves. I always thought it was logical though. Before I ever read about sets and reps, single sets were all that occured to me.
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bulch
Total Posts: 4276
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I like the idea of single set training but i have had a couple of small injuries from using too much weight in the squat. My own fault really, i just jumped into a hard weight, to near failure without properly preparing myself for it.
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Diablo
Total Posts: 7355
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Quote:
bulch said:
I like the idea of single set training but i have had a couple of small injuries from using too much weight in the squat. My own fault really, i just jumped into a hard weight, to near failure without properly preparing myself for it.
I keep thinking about doing a 10x3 scheme for this kind of reasoning. Going heavy with low reps. Just never done it. I need to read more.
Diablo
Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth- MT |
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Mike Robinson
Total Posts: 67
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Quote:
Manor said:
I'll be returning to a Dr. Ken type workout I had done in the past after my vacation next week, where I gained enough muscle to win a "Most LBM gained" contest :)
Manor, please post the routine, I would love to review it.
Regards,
Mike
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LeePinac
Total Posts: 687
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A couple of examples of Dr. Ken routines:
Muscular Development - Dec. ’89
Day One
Squat: warm-up, 1x20, 2 min. rest, 1x12-15
Press: warm-up, 1x10, 2 min. rest, 1x6-8, 1 min. rest, 1xAMAP with same weight
Deadlift: 1x15, rest 3 min., 1x10
Ab, Forearm and Neck work
Day Two
Squat: warm-up, 1x20, rest 2 min., 1x 12-15
Press: warm-up, 1x10, 2 min. rest, 1x6-8, rest 1 min., 1xAMAP w/ same weight
Row: warm-up, 1x10, 2 min. rest, 1x6-8, rest 1 min., 1xAMAP w/ same weight
Ab,Forearm and Neck work
Or
Day One
Squat: warm-up, 1x20, 2 min. rest, 1x12-15
Press: warm-up, 1x10, 2 min. rest, 1x6-8, 1 min. rest, 1xAMAP with same weight
Row: warm –up, 1x10, 2 min. rest, 1x6-8, 1 min. rest, 1xAMAP with same weight
Ab,Forearm and Neck work
Day Two
Deadlift: warm-up, 1x15, rest 3 min., 1x10
Press: warm-up, 1x10, 2 min. rest, 1x6-8, 1 min. rest, 1xAMAP with same weight
Ab,Forearm and Neck work
HardGainer – Jan ‘93
Day One
Push Press: warm-up; 2x3
Press: 1x6
Power Cleans: 2x5
Squat: warm-up; 1x5
Chins or Barbell Curls
Sit-Ups
Day Two
Press: warm-up; 1x5
Or
Bench Press: warm-up; 1x1 or 1x2, 1x10
Squat: warm-up; 1x30 or 1x15-20, 2 min. rest, 2nd set
Stiff-leg Deadlifts: 1x15-30
Dips: 1 set
Shrugs: 1-2 sets
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Manor
Total Posts: 6773
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Example from 2004 log: Squats – 280 lbs (with TS) 15-20 reps (completed 18) SLDL – 165 lbs 15 reps (completed 15) BB Pullovers - 95 lbs 10 reps (completed 12) Chins – BW +40 lbs 10 reps (completed 7) Liked the feeling of 40 lbs on me Standing BB press – 140 lbs 10 and 6 reps (completed 10 and 6) BB Shrugs – 235 lbs 15 reps (completed 15) Dips BWT + 40 lbs 12 reps (completed 12) BB curls 105 lbs 10 reps (completed 12) Captain chair reverse crunch to failure At one point I was working out once a week and still gained. Note that if I reached the reps as prescribed, I did not move up in weight, I moved up when I surpassed the reps by 2 reps as this allowed for me anyway, to move up intelligently and not try to blast it all every workout. (TS= TOP Squat attachment which equals 15 lbs) Ha, I look at this now and I know I could surpass all weights, love it!!
aka SAVAGE/JDIDAN/Dan the Protein Man
You can't choose your parents however you can choose your lifestyle
Earn your supplements
The most important stack you can do are big plates.- Sweatn |
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Manor
Total Posts: 6773
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Oh and at some point I would do forced reps and negatives, which is more advanced. The more I think about it the more I'm getting excited to get back into it.
aka SAVAGE/JDIDAN/Dan the Protein Man
You can't choose your parents however you can choose your lifestyle
Earn your supplements
The most important stack you can do are big plates.- Sweatn |
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Laree
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Eric_
Total Posts: 65
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08-10-19 01:29 AM - Post#885967
Hello LeePinac,
Thank you very much for posting Dr. Ken's Muscular Development routine. It led to some correspondence with Dr. Ken and him generously sending me a copy of the MD article which contains that routine.
Eric
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Neander
Total Posts: 7755
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The series he wrote for Powerlifting USA, More From Ken Leistner, had some way cool training info peppered in there. His writing tends to ramble, which I really like, but there's some training gems in that series if you dig for them.
The video of the Good Doctor going through a real-time workout shows pretty clearly what he recommended.
That oughta be required viewing for anyone new to lifting who has a desire to build strength in their body for a while. It's outrageous, really! The pressing is what blew me away. Sure, the squatting, but that pressing is crazy to see!
Life's too short to worry about longevity.
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Edited by Neander on 08-10-19 01:27 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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LeePinac
Total Posts: 687
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08-13-19 05:22 PM - Post#886184
Eric,
You’re very welcome. I unfortunately did not come across Dr. Ken until 1993 so I missed out on a good bit of his stuff prior to that. I came across some of his prior stuff in magazines at Halfprice Books. Dr. Ken was an incredible individual. He gave ack so so much to his community, strength and actual community. I wrote to him several times over the years and he always replied, sometimes apologizing for not replying sooner. I was just more than appreciative he took time out of his schedule to reply to me. It’s been six months but man I miss his stuff that he continued to write on Helmet Hut and Titan Support Systems.
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Eric_
Total Posts: 65
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08-15-19 04:06 PM - Post#886306
That's right, in the video he presses 253 x 4 at a bwt of 160.5 lb. Ten days earlier he made 253 x 5. His pressing strength was similar to that of the champion old time strongmen:
Sig Klein at 152 lbs:
Military Press 229-1/4 lbs
Hermann Goerner at 220-290 lbs:
Two hands military (not continental) press 276 lbs
Arthur Saxon at 198 lbs:
Two-Hand Military Press 252 lbs.
Dr. Ken's pressing also ranks with that of the pre-steroid Olympic lifting medalists. You can see those records on the Lift Up site.
Being able to press 253 x 4-5, I think Ken could have done 260 x 1-3, 100 lb over his bwt.
Weighing 164 he would push press 300 x 3 for two sets, followed by 235 x 5 of strict presses as a backdown set.
At 150 or 155 lb, he once push pressed 275 x 5 in order to shut down a gym bully who was swaggering around shooting off putdowns and criticisms of others exercising there.
Dr. Ken's pressing strength was pretty off-the-charts strong.
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tom6112
Total Posts: 846
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08-15-19 08:28 PM - Post#886320
I agree his pressing ability was crazy.
Everyone talks about 20 x 400 in the squat but
Really the pressing is even more impressive
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BntLgr
Total Posts: 403
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08-16-19 12:07 PM - Post#886344
For Kens size, many of his lifts were pretty impressive.
Even his grip stuff can get nuts. Since as he said, his forearms were small, but the tendons and ligs had great advantage insertions.
I can see a guy who is 5'6" and able to bench #400+ most of the time, being able to pushpress mid to high #200's for reps. Now a guy who is 6' might be a differing story. Longer stroke getting it to lockout.
| Be yourself. Everyone else is taken |
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Andy Mitchell
Total Posts: 5269
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08-16-19 07:10 PM - Post#886368
I think as one ages and continues to do “hard†workouts muscle tissue growth does slow considerably but tendon and bone strength doesn’t.
Nice legs-shame about the face
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Eric_
Total Posts: 65
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08-17-19 12:55 AM - Post#886377
Hi Lee,
I came across Dr. Ken's stuff about then or a little before, and since then have tracked down earlier articles and whatever I can find.
I'd corresponded with him a couple of times in the '90s, then your posting of that MD routine triggered an email correspondence with Dr. Ken in 2018 and 2019.
I don't know if you or anyone here has the Fall/Sept 2006 issue of Milo. I don't, but it has a Dr. Ken article with a routine which I'll write here by memory:
Press:
1 x 5, 1 x 3 warmups
1 x 5, 1 x 3 work sets
Squat:
1 x 5, 1 x 3 warmups
1 x 15, 1 x 6 work sets
Shrug:
1 x 12, 1 x 6
Deadlift:
1 x 5, 1 x 3 warmups
1 x 15, 1 x 10 work sets
Curl:
1 x 12, 1 x 6
I'm not sure I've got the sequence of shrug and deadlift right, and not positive about the deadlift sets and reps.
He alternated the deadlift with Bill Starr's Power Row for 5 x 5. I don't know if those were 5 timed work sets, or how he laid that out.
I'd love to find out if I have this correct, and if not what corrections need to be made.
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BntLgr
Total Posts: 403
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08-17-19 01:16 PM - Post#886399
These were written in HG mag Sept 1991
How did you Kevin Tolbert use to train?
Day 1
Squat-warmup then 1x20
Hyperextensions 1-2 x15
BP's warms-1x10 1x6
Hammer Iso Row 1x6
Situps wtd 1x15
Day 2
Trap Bar warms 1x6 1x20
DB Press 1x12 1x6
Chns AMRAP
Dips or Pres dwns 1x10
Neck work 15 reps each direction
Others...
Day 1
Squat warms 2x5
BP's warms 2x2 1x12
Deads warms 1x5
Dips 2x10
Curls 1x9 1x6
DB press 1x12 1x6
Side Bends 1x15
Day 2
Squat warms 1x15
Press 2x5
Cleans 1x5
Press dwns 1x10
Uprt Rows 1x9 1x6
Situps wtd 1x15
There are a few more but they look pretty redundant. Maybe they replace the reg dead with Stiff legged ones. I know Ken used that a bit and even did it off high blocks.
I know he used Hammer strength stuff too but as far as sets and reps and days per week, I think it is mostly covered as to how he used his HIT.
| Be yourself. Everyone else is taken |
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tom6112
Total Posts: 846
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08-17-19 02:01 PM - Post#886403
At 58 I still train close to this now.
Twice a week full body.
I still push it but not all out crazy every time.
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LeePinac
Total Posts: 687
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08-18-19 12:52 PM - Post#886421
Eric,
I found this routine in the Dec 2005 issue of MILO. It looks similar to what you were referring to.
Day One
Press: warm up x5, x3, work set x6
Power Clean: warm up x5, x3, work set x5
Deadlift: warm up xx5, x3, work set x8
Lat Pulldown supinated grip: 1 x 12, 1 x 6
Shrug: 1 x 10, 1 x 8
Manual neck work, Forearm work
Day Two
Squat: warm up x 10, x 5, x 1, work set x 20
Bench Press: warm up x 5, x 3, work set x 6
Power Row: 1 x 10 , 1 x 6
Shrug: 1 x 10, 1 x 8
Curl: 1 x 10, 1 x 6
Manual neck work, forearm work
In the Sep 2006 MILO issue Dr. Ken talked about pulls. He went over power rows, stiff-legged deadlifts and pulls from the floor, but he didn't give a routine with that article.
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Eric_
Total Posts: 65
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08-19-19 02:08 PM - Post#886467
Thanks very much Lee for taking the time to look that up and write that out--it's great to have another Dr. Ken routine to refer to.
The one I'm trying to remember must be from a different issue. I saw the routine posted on a forum somewhere, but I haven't been able to track it down since then by using all the search terms I can think of.
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LeePinac
Total Posts: 687
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08-20-19 06:24 PM - Post#886524
Eric,
I found the article you were trying to remember. It is in the Sep 2009 MILO. The article is Strength Skill (Part II): Emphasis on Strength
Press: warm-up 1 x 5, 1 x 3, work sets 1 x 5, 1 x 3
Squat (Barbell Deep Knee Bend): warm-up 1 x 8, 1 x 3, work sets 1 x 15, 1 x 6
Shrug: 1 x 12, 1 x 6
Deadlift**: warm-up 1 x 5, 1 x 3, work sets 1 x 10, 1 x 5
Barbell Curl: 1 x 12, 1 x 6
**On the second workout day of the week, substitute Bill Starr's power row done for 5 x 5 in place of the deadlift.
Enjoy.
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Eric_
Total Posts: 65
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08-20-19 09:42 PM - Post#886530
Oh, fantastic Lee--thanks a million! It's great to see this written out. Thanks for taking the time to look it up and write it down.
Do you know Dr. Ken's pattern for the 5 x 5, if they are all work sets or how he laid that out?
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LeePinac
Total Posts: 687
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08-22-19 06:10 PM - Post#886638
Do you know Dr. Ken's pattern for the 5 x 5, if they are all work sets or how he laid that out?
Three warm-up sets and two work sets. I would do descending reps for your warm-up sets, i.e. set #1 5 reps, #2 3 reps, #3 1-2 reps.
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rjp
Total Posts: 2
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08-23-19 01:02 PM - Post#886675
The second set in many of Dr Ken's routines use about halve as many repetitions. Does anyone know about how long his "rest periods" were? A minute or two?
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Eric_
Total Posts: 65
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08-23-19 02:11 PM - Post#886681
Dr. Ken's 50% set method usually used one minute of rest between the first and second work sets. After going for max reps on the first work set, he would rest one minute then go for max reps on the second set. Since on the second set he'd get about half of the reps he did on the first set, he called the technique 50% Sets.
For squats and deadlifts he sometimes used a two or three minute rest before a second set or before going to the next exercise.
He was also known at times to use 45-second rest periods, and to use a series of sets with 20 second rests between them.
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Eric_
Total Posts: 65
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08-23-19 02:24 PM - Post#886682
Thank you Lee. It's the first time I've seen Dr. Ken specifically recommend a 5 x 5 pattern in one of his routines.
Over two years ago I finally switched from a 5 x 5 pattern to Dr. Ken's layout of 5, 3, 1-2 warmups or similar, then one to three work sets (usually 50% set method), and I was able to progress again after being stuck for years.
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rjp
Total Posts: 2
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08-23-19 02:33 PM - Post#886683
Thank you Eric. I'll try working with this!
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LeePinac
Total Posts: 687
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08-23-19 09:41 PM - Post#886698
Thank you Lee. It's the first time I've seen Dr. Ken specifically recommend a 5 x 5 pattern in one of his routines.
Over two years ago I finally switched from a 5 x 5 pattern to Dr. Ken's layout of 5, 3, 1-2 warmups or similar, then one to three work sets (usually 50% set method), and I was able to progress again after being stuck for years.
In the June 2014 MILO article, The Importance of Being Earnest...About Technique, Dr. Ken recommends 5 x 5: 3 sets warm-ups, 2 work sets. I don't remember Dr. Ken recommending 5 x 5 before either. Bill Starr was very big on 5 x 5, but he recommended ramping up to a top set of 5.
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Eric_
Total Posts: 65
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08-24-19 04:15 PM - Post#886736
Thanks Lee, that's interesting.
Regarding Dr. Ken's "Strength Skill" article, does Part I also have a routine?
It looks like I'll need to track down those two issues.
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LeePinac
Total Posts: 687
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Thanks Lee, that's interesting.
Regarding Dr. Ken's "Strength Skill" article, does Part I also have a routine?
It looks like I'll need to track down those two issues.
No, "Strength Skill: Lifting Hard and Heavy" MILO June 2009 does not have a routine associated with it. Dr. Ken talks about skill being important but strength being the final dictator. "Know-how is necessary, but training hard, utilizing heavy weights when doing so, and developing the physical and psychological ability to do so consistently is very bit a set of skills that is not emphasized enough by most modern trainees and coaches."
I would advise getting all of the issues of MILO that you do not have. Do it over time because I know it can be pricey doing it all at once if you're missing quite a few. Have your spouse, parents, siblings get them as birthday or Christmas presents for you.
Edited by LeePinac on 08-25-19 02:30 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Adam S
Total Posts: 629
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I ordered some back issues from IronMind recently. The issues arrived promptly and were (of course) in great shape. Very good customer service. A bit pricey but worth it.
| Why are you squatting in the curl rack? |
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LeePinac
Total Posts: 687
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I ordered some back issues from IronMind recently. The issues arrived promptly and were (of course) in great shape. Very good customer service. A bit pricey but worth it.
I completed my complete set of MILO several months ago. I hit some tight money times a couple of times over the years so I was missing several issues. Great strength related publication.
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BntLgr
Total Posts: 403
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08-26-19 09:10 AM - Post#886809
Not sure if this is helpful on Ken's stuff as well!? I know he wrote or contributed a good bit here...
Cyberpump (I think one has to donate)...
http://www.trainhardwithdrken.com/
| Be yourself. Everyone else is taken |
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rvan
Total Posts: 755
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08-26-19 04:52 PM - Post#886839
Dr. Ken was reportedly at one time at a body weight of 230 lbs. Any one have photos or can direct me towards them. thanks
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