03-03-06 11:56 AM - Post#189500    

While he doesn't come on the 'net, Bill's available to answer questions or respond to comments via phone or fax, and I'm here to post his thoughts.

>Would you like Bill to expand on any of the topics covered in The Strongest Shall Survive, or were there questions we discussed that weren't sufficiently answered?



Edited by Laree on 05-19-10 08:49 PM. Reason for edit: Bill answers questions toward the end of this thread

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-03-06 11:59 AM - Post#189501    

I have two questions so far:

Now for my rant and my eventual question to Mr. Starr:

The Power Clean is what I would call a technique intensive movment, if done properly. The slow pull from the floor with straight arms, the explosive second pull, with elbows up and up, rising on the toes with a full shoulder shrug. This is a good movement for a well-conditioned athlete...but there exists quite a potential for damage from the uncoached movement, i.e. like Cajin turning his wrists over either too slowly or with lack of sufficient height...either one will strain the wrist tendons.

Dr. Ken (another man with a similar background, especially training for football) doesn't recommend the power clean, for the reason I mention and also that it places unusual demands on the connective tissues.

Numerous authorities now feel that you can't train "explosiveness," at least not with conventional weight training exercises.

How do you answer this?

And Two:

There's a recommendation in this section that I question and it specifically relates to the "good morning" movement.

Someone please check me if I'm wrong...but doesn't Bill recommend doing the movement with a rounded back?

This is completely contrary to what I've heard, read and teach. By rounding the back, you may indeed get a greater activation of the erectors...at the expense of possible damage to the disks.

Current thought and practice limits the movement to the depth that may be achieved while maintaining the natural curvature of the lower back, effectively pivoting at the hips...rather than rounding the back and spine.

I can "allow" that as a non-weighted movement for rehab...but the use of even a light weight in the round back style has leverage factors going against the practice as being safe for the disks. When the back is rounded like that, the erectors have to relax to allow the movement...now, muscle is no longer controlling the movement and the disks are unevenly loaded on one face.

Anyone care to comment?

Wicked

"I'm in good shape for the shape I'm in." "Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me." John 14:6

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-03-06 12:06 PM - Post#189502    

Coach Starr, in conjunction with the TSSS, if you were to suggest a direct lat exercise, what would be your choice?

Mark it Zero.

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-03-06 06:44 PM - Post#189503    

Bill Starr’s book is directed toward training young athletes with constraints both on the available time and the number of athletes that must be accommodated in that time.

This profile differs markedly from that which is germane to most IOL members. Specifically, many of us are hardly young, we typically train alone or with a partner in a setting where throughput is not an issue and at least some of us have the luxury of time. My first question for Bill Starr is whether he would make different recommendations for an IOL community than he would for a HS/college/pro football team.

I have a ‘specialized’ question from my son. Evan is a HS senior who has been recruited to play college lacrosse. His HS coach has him on a training program that is indistinguishable from that recommended in Bill Starr’s book. Evan is a face-off middie and asks whether, in all your experience with JHU LAX, you had occasion to promote any specialized training for the face-off guys.

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-09-06 05:08 PM - Post#189504    

I have two questions at the moment.

First is similar to LWB's: What is your current training and nutrition strategy for yourself, and how has it changed as you've matured?

And second: What's your thinking on noisy knees? Not painful, however in addition to the noise, there's enough "feeling" to make it nerve-racking sometimes.

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-10-06 06:26 AM - Post#189505    

For a long time, at least twenty years, seems like shoulder injuries and lifting weights go pretty much hand in hand. The bench press usually gets the blame yet some authorities insist overhead lifting is harder on the shoulders than bench pressing. The lab coat types will doubtless argue this to a draw.

I just wonder if these injuries were more common, less common, or about the same back when people did less bench pressing and more standing pressing, as well as more of the snatch and clean and jerk. Any other insights into keeping healthy shoulders welcome.

This one is related to WW's above, but more general... What is your opinion of the value of olympic lifting and variants - power/squat/split/one hand versions, for athletes and general fitness oriented people? Any opinion on kettlebells?

The most important test a lifter has to pass is the test of time. -Jon Cole

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-10-06 06:48 AM - Post#189506    

The TSSS program is of course designed for football players - young men doing a lot of other activities in football practice. What recommendations do you have for the rest of us using this program - men and women of all ages?

Also, for non-athletes, do you have any suggestions as to what to do outside of the weight room to round out the program?

The most important test a lifter has to pass is the test of time. -Jon Cole

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-10-06 10:58 AM - Post#189507    

Quote:

---

ccrow said:
For a long time, at least twenty years, seems like shoulder injuries and lifting weights go pretty much hand in hand. The bench press usually gets the blame yet some authorities insist overhead lifting is harder on the shoulders than bench pressing. The lab coat types will doubtless argue this to a draw.

I just wonder if these injuries were more common, less common, or about the same back when people did less bench pressing and more standing pressing, as well as more of the snatch and clean and jerk. Any other insights into keeping healthy shoulders welcome.

This one is related to WW's above, but more general... What is your opinion of the value of olympic lifting and variants - power/squat/split/one hand versions, for athletes and general fitness oriented people? Any opinion on kettlebells?

---

I wonder if it has more to do with the direction bad weight training is heading. And also the number of participants. In Dave's competing time, people even then were considerably less sedentary than they are now. There were no trainers with letters after their name but no practical experience. And there was much less of the desire to only train the front side of the body, to say nothing of the encouragement of the use of machines over free weights.

/sk

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-10-06 11:48 AM - Post#189508    

Americans are lazy, I want it all now, pussies.

Mark it Zero.

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-10-06 11:59 AM - Post#189509    

Quote:

---

DanMartin said:
Americans are lazy, I want it all now, pussies.

---

Another quotable quote.

/sk

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-10-06 01:21 PM - Post#189510    

Quote:

---

DanMartin said:
Americans are lazy, I want it all now, pussies.

---

Thanks for the compliments Dan..:)
I can wait at least a few weeks..

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-10-06 01:26 PM - Post#189511    

I thought of a question for Mr. Starr.

Seeing that your book is over 25 years old, is there anything you have changed your opinion about?
Obviously we all think your book is relevant to today and was much ahead of it's time.

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-10-06 03:11 PM - Post#189512    

/sk, I know I should keep quiet and let Bill Starr respond, but I guess I can comment since he doesn't participate in online forums etc.

I'm actually not too curious about what's going on today, I have a solid grasp of that. Truth be told I think the bench press past say 1.5x bodyweight is a high risk exercise for shoulder trouble. Even the great Bill Starr couldn't change my mind about that. I understand it from a theoretical perspective and I've seen the theory bourne out in real life, no question.

I'm more curious about what went on back in the day when lifters did both. Did overhead work have a protective effect on the shoulders? I work out with a group of masters olympic lifters. The oldest has been competing for about fifty years, not kidding, seriously, since the 1950s. Most of these guys have zero shoulder problems and have never heard of their rotator cuff. By and large they are much more pain free than powerlifters of similar caliber twenty years younger.

The most important test a lifter has to pass is the test of time. -Jon Cole

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-10-06 03:25 PM - Post#189513    

Well Byron, since we're answering each other's questions...yes, when lifters did both the overhead and bench press, they had less shoulder problems. Without an exhaustive description of anatomy and mechanics, the overhead press allowed for a stretch that wasn't present in the bench press. This prevented some of the "tightness" that the bench press fostered and helped to maintain shoulder health.

I have a copy of MILO where this very subject is discussed.

Wicked

"I'm in good shape for the shape I'm in." "Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me." John 14:6

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-10-06 03:32 PM - Post#189514    

Quote:

---

Wicked Willie said:
Well Byron, since we're answering each other's questions...yes, when lifters did both the overhead and bench press, they had less shoulder problems. Without an exhaustive description of anatomy and mechanics, the overhead press allowed for a stretch that wasn't present in the bench press. This prevented some of the "tightness" that the bench press fostered and helped to maintain shoulder health.

I have a copy of MILO where this very subject is discussed.

Wicked

---

Is there any solid research on this? I would expect not. Isn't this just a bunch of anecdotal evidence/assumption? The shoulder is clearly a very complex "joint' with multiple possibilities for injury..how well researched would/could any data on shoulder injuries be? is there some central respository of ifo out there about strength athletes and shoulder problems? I doubt it.. it has to be pure conjecture.. Just because something appears to "make sense' doesn't make it so...in all cases.
Clearly shoulder injuries have multiple causes.. which may or may not have anything to do with overhead pressing and or bench pressing..

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-10-06 03:33 PM - Post#189515    

Very interesting and a good point. What a resource! I'm jealous!

/sk

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-10-06 03:50 PM - Post#189516    

Quote:

---

ccrow said:
/sk, I know I should keep quiet and let Bill Starr respond, but I guess I can comment since he doesn't participate in online forums etc.

I'm actually not too curious about what's going on today, I have a solid grasp of that. Truth be told I think the bench press past say 1.5x bodyweight is a high risk exercise for shoulder trouble. Even the great Bill Starr couldn't change my mind about that. I understand it from a theoretical perspective and I've seen the theory bourne out in real life, no question.

I'm more curious about what went on back in the day when lifters did both. Did overhead work have a protective effect on the shoulders? I work out with a group of masters olympic lifters. The oldest has been competing for about fifty years, not kidding, seriously, since the 1950s. Most of these guys have zero shoulder problems and have never heard of their rotator cuff. By and large they are much more pain free than powerlifters of similar caliber twenty years younger.

---

A basic difference between PLing and OLY is simply the amount of weight being used...Good oly lifters do amazing lifting..but the poundages are clearly less than good PLers.. That alone should make a difference in injury "potential".. after considering that, you have all the other factors: form. technique, genetics, etc. etc.. which would be amplified as the weights get heavier..
The injury correlations would be hard to substantiate in the absence of real data..

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-10-06 03:51 PM - Post#189517    

Gary, unfortunately, I am with you - I doubt there will be any studies that compare this, a six week study would be meaningless, and a long term study impractical. That's why I'm so interested in the empirical results.

There is plenty of supporting information though. Here are the potential problems with the bench press:

(1) The range of motion is slightly longer than most people's capsule can tolerate over the long term. Supporting evidence to this effect include the protective effect of bench shirts; the protective effect of benching with towels or boards on the chest, started by Bigger Faster Stronger and used to good effect by many powerlifters today.

(2) The shoulderblades don't move freely and naturally during bench presses with substantial weights; they are pinned to the bench. Over time the natural motor pattern where the shoulderblades move in concert with the arms ("scapulohumeral rhythm" or "scapulothoracic rhythm") can be detrained, and without this correct motion impingement is more likely.

(3) The bench press causes the pectorals to shorten / tighten, contributing to excessive internal rotation and resultant postural problems referred to as "upper crossed syndrome" by Vladimir Janda, a very influential kinesiologist. The upper crossed syndrome is already very prevalent in people who spend a lot of time seated at a desk with their hands on a keyboard. As the pecs and internal rotators shorten, the lower trapezius, rhomboids, and rotator cuff muscles tend to weaken through a mechanism known as "reciprocal inhibition."

Overhead lifting could help with (2) and (3). The overhead lifts strengthen some of the scapular control muscles, especially the lower trapezius and serratus, which don't get much work otherwise. An olympic lifter will find himself unable to catch his snatches if his pecs tighten up too much - so olympic lifters tend to stay on top of flexibility in this area and many will only do inclines or skip the bench entirely due to this probelm.

How much would just doing some pressing help? Doubtless an individual matter to some degree and impossible to say exactly. But, I am hoping Bill Starr's response will help give me a handle on how it seems to work, by and large.

None of this says "don't bench press" but it does give a very well founded scientific explanation of the mechanisms by which the exercise causes trouble and parameters for bench pressing safely.

The most important test a lifter has to pass is the test of time. -Jon Cole

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-10-06 03:56 PM - Post#189518    

/sk, not only are they a great resource but they are a bunch of characters. If you can make it to Fort Bliss in April, look for "King Joe" Amendolaro, 78 years old and looking for a bodyweight snatch at Nationals.

Wicked, thanks for the info and if you can possibly give me an issue number or article title that is definitely a copy of Milo I need for the archives.

The most important test a lifter has to pass is the test of time. -Jon Cole

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-10-06 03:57 PM - Post#189519    

Quote:

---

ccrow said:
Gary, unfortunately, I am with you - I doubt there will be any studies that compare this, a six week study would be meaningless, and a long term study impractical. That's why I'm so interested in the empirical results.

There is plenty of supporting information though. Here are the potential problems with the bench press:

(1) The range of motion is slightly longer than most people's capsule can tolerate over the long term. Supporting evidence to this effect include the protective effect of bench shirts; the protective effect of benching with towels or boards on the chest, started by Bigger Faster Stronger and used to good effect by many powerlifters today.

(2) The shoulderblades don't move freely and naturally during bench presses with substantial weights; they are pinned to the bench. Over time the natural motor pattern where the shoulderblades move in concert with the arms ("scapulohumeral rhythm" or "scapulothoracic rhythm") can be detrained, and without this correct motion impingement is more likely.

(3) The bench press causes the pectorals to shorten / tighten, contributing to excessive internal rotation and resultant postural problems referred to as "upper crossed syndrome" by Vladimir Janda, a very influential kinesiologist. The upper crossed syndrome is already very prevalent in people who spend a lot of time seated at a desk with their hands on a keyboard. As the pecs and internal rotators shorten, the lower trapezius, rhomboids, and rotator cuff muscles tend to weaken through a mechanism known as "reciprocal inhibition."

Overhead lifting could help with (2) and (3). The overhead lifts strengthen some of the scapular control muscles, especially the lower trapezius and serratus, which don't get much work otherwise. An olympic lifter will find himself unable to catch his snatches if his pecs tighten up too much - so olympic lifters tend to stay on top of flexibility in this area and many will only do inclines or skip the bench entirely due to this probelm.

How much would just doing some pressing help? Doubtless an individual matter to some degree and impossible to say exactly. But, I am hoping Bill Starr's response will help give me a handle on how it seems to work, by and large.

None of this says "don't bench press" but it does give a very well founded scientific explanation of the mechanisms by which the exercise causes trouble and parameters for bench pressing safely.

---

Sounds good.. and the basic premise is hard to disagree with. That is that if you bench only and don't "balance" your lifting..you will get irregular development that could lead to problems.. certainly rotator work and such (overhead lifting) is a great idea if you intend to focus on the bench..
I don't think that mixing in the bench as a part of a general lifting routine poses any great risk to anyone.. but some of our members seem to feel otherwise..and talk of the bench as being "bad" news.. he he

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-10-06 03:58 PM - Post#189520    

Quote:

---

garyed said:


Is there any solid research on this? I would expect not. Isn't this just a bunch of anecdotal evidence/assumption?

---

Gary:

If you mean double blind, fully controlled studies...of course not. There is a fair body of collected anecdotal evidence that supports what I posted above, based on the experiences of lifters that engaged in both powerlifting and Olympic lifting.

However, your point regarding shoulder anatomy variations is valid and has not been lost to me.

As to the question of "solid" research...there is little "solid" research about weight training and its variant sports...period. Most of the "research" out there is flawed some way.

Wicked

"I'm in good shape for the shape I'm in." "Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me." John 14:6

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-10-06 04:09 PM - Post#189521    

Quote:

---

Wicked Willie said:

Quote:

---

garyed said:


Is there any solid research on this? I would expect not. Isn't this just a bunch of anecdotal evidence/assumption?

---

Gary:

If you mean double blind, fully controlled studies...of course not. There is a fair body of collected anecdotal evidence that supports what I posted above, based on the experiences of lifters that engaged in both powerlifting and Olympic lifting.

However, your point regarding shoulder anatomy variations is valid and has not been lost to me.

As to the question of "solid" research...there is little "solid" research about weight training and its variant sports...period. Most of the "research" out there is flawed some way.

Wicked

---

And so.. all these discussions about "injury" need to be taken with a grain of salt..I think especially when talking about the shoulder.due to the complexity and possibilities.. I would say it is mostly all anecdotal..since it is doubtful that anyone has compiled injury data from a pool of strength athletes and done any looking into causation etc.. It sounds logical.. so we accept it as gospel.. thats how this stuff gets going.. Why do folks think lifting is plain dangerous??.. cause it seems to make sense..it appears to be logical..
I have serious doubts..

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-10-06 06:23 PM - Post#189522    

Quote:

---

I want it all now

---

It's a little off topic but I once saw a post by a guy who said that he had been training for two weeks and couldn't see any changes and asked what he was doing wrong. He was so disgusted with his lack of progress he was going to quit. :)

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-10-06 09:30 PM - Post#189523    

I've held the opinion that lifters could do plenty of bench presses, but, they need to limit them in comparison to the amount of rowing exercises they do. A ratio of 60-65% rowing to 40-35% bench pressing. And they need to handle heavier weights when they row compared to their bench pressing. Also, dumbbells used for the majority of bench pressing and rows makes a difference.

Same holds true for the Olympic press. With all of the pulling Olympic lifters do, there usually isn't a big of discrepency. But I would like to suggest that if you just pressed, you need to become great at pull-ups too.

Mark it Zero.

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-13-06 10:58 AM - Post#189524    

I'm printing this out for Bill now. You're welcome to continue the discussions, but this is the cutoff for questions going to him this mailing.

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-13-06 01:56 PM - Post#189525    

The old timers always contended that you should do at least 1 for 1 pulling for pressing.

It don't matter

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-14-06 07:57 PM - Post#189526    

Quote:

---

cajinjohn said:
The old timers always contended that you should do at least 1 for 1 pulling for pressing.

---

I'm starting to think it should be at least 60/40, pulling to pressing.

Mark it Zero.

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-14-06 08:45 PM - Post#189527    

Quote:

---

DanMartin said:

Quote:

---

cajinjohn said:
The old timers always contended that you should do at least 1 for 1 pulling for pressing.

---

I'm starting to think it should be at least 60/40, pulling to pressing.

---

You could be right. I would not argue that.

It don't matter

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-15-06 02:12 PM - Post#189528    

Quote:

---

cajinjohn said:

Quote:

---

DanMartin said:

Quote:

---

cajinjohn said:
The old timers always contended that you should do at least 1 for 1 pulling for pressing.

---

I'm starting to think it should be at least 60/40, pulling to pressing.

---

You could be right. I would not argue that.

---

From all that I have read that makes sense. I just want to make clear, that the split of push pull, and balance of the push pull, is for the health of the shoulder joint. Correct?

Aside from the shoulder health, is there any support for better overall developement, either power or physique, with haveing the push pull balance? Or is that another subject of conjecture?

Diablo Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth- MT

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-15-06 03:12 PM - Post#189529    

Quote:

---

Aside from the shoulder health, is there any support for better overall developement, either power or physique, with haveing the push pull balance? Or is that another subject of conjecture?

---

If your lats are strong enough, you can use them to help push.

/sk

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-15-06 04:40 PM - Post#189530    

The pulling versus pushing thing is helpful but it is an oversimplification. For many years I did tons and tons of pulling, I was a chinup maniac, and it only made the shoulders worse. The latissimus is an internal rotator, same as the pecs. Internal rotation has to be balanced by external rotation. I really think overhead pressing does more to balance the shoulder than chins.

I think a buy that does equal amounts bench presses and elbows in rows, and equal amounts inclines and pulldowns/chins is going to be screwed; a guy that does equal parts benching, elbows out rowing, and overhead pressing will probably have zero problems. (Rowing can be more of a mid back exercise than a lat exercise if the elbows are held out, this will make it more beneficial for the balance of the shoulder.)

An unbalanced shoulder will probably before long be an unhealthy shoulder and that will hold you back in any sport, bodybuilding, powerlifting, everything.

The most important test a lifter has to pass is the test of time. -Jon Cole

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-15-06 05:08 PM - Post#189531    

When I speak of pulling to pressing, I am only refering to cleans, snatches and their associated pulls, along with presses, push presses and jerks. I'm starting to become a bit circumspect on the value of bench pressing, therefore, no amount of rows IMO will offset the bad juju of benching.

Mark it Zero.

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-15-06 07:01 PM - Post#189532    

I've benched all my life up until a couple of years ago. I keep clients away from the BP - always emphasizing the OHP first and then following up with some kind of chest movement like a Hammer or Pendulum incline press or dips.

I remember reading an article by Doc Ken which talked about the popularity of the bench press in the late 60's early 70's and how rotator cuff injuries became more prevalent. I don't think the BP is a bad exercise necessarily but one that is over used too much causing rounded shoulders and cuff problems.

I agree with DM on the pulling movements. I usually use a 3/2 ratio pulls to pressing for my clients and their posture changes dramatically.

"Life is a one act play, there are no encores." - Dan Martin PREMIERE PERSONAL FITNESS

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-15-06 07:18 PM - Post#189533    

The bench press is an exercise that allows the trainee to handle a lot of weight. Is it a good pec exercise? Not as good as flyes, stone sphere lifting and dips. Is it a good deltoid exercise? Not as good as presses, and various lateral/leverage movements with dumbbells. Is it a good tricep exercise? Now we may be on to something. But, tricep pressdowns on a lat-machine IMO are safer.

Mark it Zero.

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-16-06 08:43 AM - Post#189534    

The BP always did my chest well but admittedly I was one of the only few I knew who benefited "pec wise". After studying the bench press movement and how much stress it puts on the rotator cuff and bicep tendon I don't recommend it too often and if I do the movement is done with dumbbells which reduces the ROM due to the bells hitting the chest first (for most people).

Dan - never thought about lifting spheres as being a pec developer but it makes total sense - even if it is in a static position. Just wish the damn lower back could withstand the movement.

"Life is a one act play, there are no encores." - Dan Martin PREMIERE PERSONAL FITNESS

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-16-06 09:33 AM - Post#189535    

Quote:

---

Fred Fornicola said:
Dan - never thought about lifting spheres as being a pec developer but it makes total sense - even if it is in a static position. Just wish the damn lower back could withstand the movement.

---

Let me state for the record, Dr. Ken turned me on to the stone sphere/pec connection. I just tried it out to confirm it.

Mark it Zero.

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-16-06 02:43 PM - Post#189536    

Quote:

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ccrow said:
I think a buy that does equal amounts bench presses and elbows in rows, and equal amounts inclines and pulldowns/chins is going to be screwed.

---

Byron (or anyone),

Does the above also apply when all benching is done with the elbows close? I find that benching/rowing with the elbows flared hurts my shoulders. Does that indicate a weakness I'd have to address?

TIA,
Elke

Normal is overrated.

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-16-06 03:04 PM - Post#189537    

Quote:

---

nomain said:

Quote:

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ccrow said:
I think a buy that does equal amounts bench presses and elbows in rows, and equal amounts inclines and pulldowns/chins is going to be screwed.

---

Byron (or anyone),

Does the above also apply when all benching is done with the elbows close? I find that benching/rowing with the elbows flared hurts my shoulders. Does that indicate a weakness I'd have to address?

TIA,
Elke

---

Don't bench press girlfriend.

Mark it Zero.

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-16-06 03:07 PM - Post#189538    

Quote:

---

DanMartin said:

Quote:

---

nomain said:

Quote:

---

ccrow said:
I think a buy that does equal amounts bench presses and elbows in rows, and equal amounts inclines and pulldowns/chins is going to be screwed.

---

Byron (or anyone),

Does the above also apply when all benching is done with the elbows close? I find that benching/rowing with the elbows flared hurts my shoulders. Does that indicate a weakness I'd have to address?

TIA,
Elke

---

Don't bench press girlfriend.

---

Yeah if you do it will destroy you..lots of bodies out there.. I am one of them..it has ruined my life.. .. geez..

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-16-06 03:11 PM - Post#189539    

Quote:

---

nomain said:
Byron (or anyone),

Does the above also apply when all benching is done with the elbows close? I find that benching/rowing with the elbows flared hurts my shoulders. Does that indicate a weakness I'd have to address?

TIA,
Elke

---

Elke, I won't say don't bench, but I wouldn't bench with elbosw flared, keep them in.

/sk

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-16-06 03:16 PM - Post#189540    

Quote:

---

/sk said:

Quote:

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nomain said:
Byron (or anyone),

Does the above also apply when all benching is done with the elbows close? I find that benching/rowing with the elbows flared hurts my shoulders. Does that indicate a weakness I'd have to address?

TIA,
Elke

---

Elke, I won't say don't bench, but I wouldn't bench with elbosw flared, keep them in.

/sk

---

I also don't believe that simply benching is the root of all shoulder evil.. The examples of folks with shoulder issues are anecdotal and from folks who were likely kicking their butts in the bench press.. going for high poundages etc.. Clearly shoulder problems have multiple causes.. and they also have multiple solutions and or repairs.. Don't have to stop doing something that you enjoy and are quite strong at..
Lots of chicken little talk on this topic.. the sky is falling.. oh my..

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-16-06 04:10 PM - Post#189541    

That's pretty much what I wanted to hear ;-) I've been benching with the elbows in for years, and I've been using the same grip width for rows as well (about a year now). The only time my left shoulder hurts is doing OHP, which is kind of weird since I'm using ridiculously light weights. It's gotten better since I incorporated shoulder warmups/strengthening exercises, but still not 100%. Frustrating... since I have this picture in my mind of OHP'ing 135# someday...

Elke

Normal is overrated.

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-16-06 04:35 PM - Post#189542    

Quote:

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garyed said:
Lots of chicken little talk on this topic.. the sky is falling.. oh my..

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...said by the guy coming off shoulder surgery rehab, lol...

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-16-06 04:42 PM - Post#189543    

Quote:

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Laree said:

Quote:

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garyed said:
Lots of chicken little talk on this topic.. the sky is falling.. oh my..

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...said by the guy coming off shoulder surgery rehab, lol...

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I am fearless..I really don;t worry about my shoulders..I am more concerned about when I will get over 400lbs. on my bench again..
Old guys/gals may have shoulder problems.. thats a fact..so what...?? he he

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-16-06 04:44 PM - Post#189544    

Besides Laree... how smart would you expect a Powerlifter to be anyhow??

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-16-06 05:05 PM - Post#189545    

Quote:

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nomain said:
That's pretty much what I wanted to hear ;-) I've been benching with the elbows in for years, and I've been using the same grip width for rows as well (about a year now). The only time my left shoulder hurts is doing OHP, which is kind of weird since I'm using ridiculously light weights. It's gotten better since I incorporated shoulder warmups/strengthening exercises, but still not 100%. Frustrating... since I have this picture in my mind of OHP'ing 135# someday...

Elke

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Use dumbbells girlfriend.

Mark it Zero.

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-16-06 05:17 PM - Post#189546    

Quote:

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garyed said:

Quote:

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Laree said:

Quote:

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garyed said:
Lots of chicken little talk on this topic.. the sky is falling.. oh my..

---

...said by the guy coming off shoulder surgery rehab, lol...

---

I am fearless..I really don;t worry about my shoulders..I am more concerned about when I will get over 400lbs. on my bench again..
Old guys/gals may have shoulder problems.. thats a fact..so what...?? he he

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My surgeon and my therapist said that I was the FIRST powerlifter(bench presser) that they had worked with.. They both have worked with hundreds of people with shoulder injuries..some sports related others not.. Of course PLing/benching is not a mainstream activity...But both supported the concept that a shoulder injury (rotator in particular) may be inevitable for many folks.. due to structure..and impingement, regardless of activity or any attempts to stop it.. Looking at the structure of the shoulder that was easy to understand..
many older folks have torn rotators and they never lifted any weights whatever.. so why would benching be a primary cause of such an injury? I don't know..I just lift stuff..

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-17-06 10:48 AM - Post#189547    

If I take a narrower grip and make sure to keep my elbows in, I can bench without shoulder pain. Sometimes small modifications are all that you need.

Peace ~ Bear

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-17-06 10:59 AM - Post#189548    

Keep it up, I have no doubt you'll get there.

/sk

Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-17-06 12:42 PM - Post#189549    

Keeping the elbows in does reduce the potential problems. The further back you flare the elbows, the greater the internal rotation and the more chance of impingement you have. Very few people will be able to bench with the elbows back so the upper arms are perpendicular to the bench without eventual injury. The Gironda Neck Press - lowering to the collarbone with elbows flared - is probably about as hard on the shoulder as any exercise you could possibly invent.

Tucking the elbows will shift some of the work from the pecs to the shoulders and triceps, which may slightly reduce the tendency for the exercise to shorten the pecs. Tucking doesn't help the shoulderblades move normally though.

It's safe to say the elbows will last longer with the elbows tucked but it doesn't resolve all the issues.

The most important test a lifter has to pass is the test of time. -Jon Cole