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Display Name Post: Dave's flat wrong about cardio        (Topic#7132)
bulch
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-18-06 05:12 AM - Post#185256    



Quote:

andy said:


I have a question to all; Why do we do cardio?
What need does it meet?




For me it is a case of health that has prompted my return to cardio. Being able to breath easily and also it is helping me get leaner allong with a "good enough" diet.
Best thread ever! :)


 
Steven
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-18-06 07:00 AM - Post#185257    



Quote:

andy said:


I have a question to all; Why do we do cardio?
What need does it meet?



Think about the subject word, you'll have your 'need'. The way you do it is up to you.


 
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-18-06 08:14 AM - Post#185258    



Ken Cooper made an awful lot of mistakes with respect to what does and does not develop cardiovascular fitness. He totally missed the boat on interval training. He mistakenly concluded that you had to keep your heart rate up for more than 12 minutes to improve cardiovascular fitness - a notion that would later be shattered to bits by a guy named Tabata. (Incidentally, stationary cycles, treadmills, interval training and steady state work were all around long before Cooper.)

I am willing to cut him some slack on these errors, there wasn't much scientific / medical data to work with at the time. He certainly has to be credited for making exercise mainstream. Far fewer people did any significant exercise into adulthood before his work became popular. He moved things in the right direction anyway. He took a real practical approach to health.

The most memorable thing from his book ironically comes from the nutrition chapter. At the end of the chapter he remarked:

"For all the long discussions about of diet, it is amazing that almost nobody would have a weight problem if they just cut out all sweets and starches."
The most important test a lifter has to pass
is the test of time.
-Jon Cole


 
DanMartin
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-18-06 08:22 AM - Post#185259    



Quote:

andy said:
My Daugther just walked into the room and said you look like Molly Meldrum :)
I think it's the hat.





How sweet of her to say.
Mark it Zero.


 
Teresa
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-18-06 08:30 AM - Post#185260    



Quote:

DanMartin said:
Kettlebells are a cardio ass kicker.




Just ask the sweaty gals.
"You will not be carrying around a scale to jump on and show people." - Vicki Masterson "The following time you better do more or you are dirt!" - Vicki again


 
DanMartin
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-18-06 08:53 AM - Post#185261    



Quote:

Teresa said:
Quote:

DanMartin said:
Kettlebells are a cardio ass kicker.




Just ask the sweaty gals.




Hot flashes are not cardio! ;@)
Mark it Zero.


 
Laree
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-18-06 01:02 PM - Post#185262    



I did a full-on Tabata session this morning in case anyone wants to know what one might look like:

15-minute warmup:
5 minutes to go from 80 bpm to 120
5 minutes from 120-140
5 minutes from 140-160

5-minute protocol (approximate):
8 x 20 seconds as hard as possible, 175-185
8 x 10 seconds rest between, 165-170
1 x 30 seconds to max heart rate, 194

5-minute cooldown to 120 bpm

Planned to do a 10-minute cooldown, but thought I was going to die and nearly fell off the bike instead. Took another 10 minutes on the floor before I could function. It's about an hour and a half later and I think I'm going to live.


 
CB
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-18-06 01:10 PM - Post#185263    



What's a Tabata ?
CB ;-)
 
DanMartin
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-18-06 01:19 PM - Post#185264    



Quote:

Laree said:
I did a full-on Tabata session this morning in case anyone wants to know what one might look like:

15-minute warmup:
5 minutes to go from 80 bpm to 120
5 minutes from 120-140
5 minutes from 140-160

5-minute protocol (approximate):
8 x 20 seconds as hard as possible, 175-185
8 x 10 seconds rest between, 165-170
1 x 30 seconds to max heart rate, 194

5-minute cooldown to 120 bpm

Planned to do a 10-minute cooldown, but thought I was going to die and nearly fell off the bike instead. Took another 10 minutes on the floor before I could function. It's about an hour and a half later and I think I'm going to live.




Give yourself a couple or three days before your next bout with the Tabata. It is very easy to overtrain. Keep in mind that this protocol as you were doing it, is exactly the way it was intended-for the Japanese Olympic speed skaters-they were down on the floor afterwards too!
Mark it Zero.


 
cajinjohn
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-18-06 01:27 PM - Post#185265    



Geezs Laree you don't have to kill yourself with this. If it makes you fell any better you now have me on a treadmill. dang it IT'S BOREING
It don't matter


 
Anonymous
Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-18-06 01:41 PM - Post#185266    



Quote:

DanMartin said:One of the most interesting things that I noticed by watching the "Pumping Iron" DVD is the absence of "cardio" equipment at Joe Gold's.


So true. But take into consideration the ideal weather at the original Gold's in Venice. Perfect weather and a beach for running, swimming, cycling, bikini watching, whatever. Who would want to substitute an indoor contraption with beautiful weather like that?
 
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-18-06 01:59 PM - Post#185267    



Quote:

DanMartin said:

Give yourself a couple or three days before your next bout with the Tabata. It is very easy to overtrain. Keep in mind that this protocol as you were doing it, is exactly the way it was intended-for the Japanese Olympic speed skaters-they were down on the floor afterwards too!




I was thinking I'd do it twice a week.

But now I'm stumped. Can't decide if I should take the day all the way off tomorrow or do a light intensity ride. Whatchu think?

Cajin, wait until a couple of weeks from now and you suddenly realize your fitness level is better. The payoff is sweet.


 
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-18-06 02:11 PM - Post#185268    



Quote:

CB said:
What's a Tabata ?




You mean who, Charlie: Dr. Izumi Tabata, National Institute of Fitness and Sports in Tokyo

6 or 8 20-second bouts separated by 10-second rests is considered the Tabata Protocol. Here's the research documentation:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query...st_uids=9139179

The Tabata Protocol is generally accepted as the most efficient method of cardiovascular exercise. In the test, after six weeks the subjects increased their anaerobic capacity by 28% and their VO2 max by 14%.

You can do the protocol using any training modality... sprinting, rowing, pulling a sled, jumping rope, whatever. Some methods are a little easier than others to implement, but once you get the hang of how to do it with your chosen tool, it all works.


 
Amazonblonde
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-18-06 02:17 PM - Post#185269    



I'll be enjoying the sun and 80 degree temps on my hill power walk today:-)
Obsessed is a word the lazy use to describe the dedicated!!!


 
Ivan
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-18-06 02:30 PM - Post#185270    



Quote:

Amazonblonde said:
I'll be enjoying the sun and 80 degree temps on my hill power walk today:-)




Oh, we got sun in Wisconsin. It's a very sunny day with ever so mild temps of below zero.

It sucks!
Ivan Schoen






 
DanMartin
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-18-06 02:32 PM - Post#185271    



Quote:

Laree said:
Quote:

DanMartin said:

Give yourself a couple or three days before your next bout with the Tabata. It is very easy to overtrain. Keep in mind that this protocol as you were doing it, is exactly the way it was intended-for the Japanese Olympic speed skaters-they were down on the floor afterwards too!




I was thinking I'd do it twice a week.

But now I'm stumped. Can't decide if I should take the day all the way off tomorrow or do a light intensity ride. Whatchu think?

Cajin, wait until a couple of weeks from now and you suddenly realize your fitness level is better. The payoff is sweet.




See how you feel tomorrow. Doing something that breaks a sweat and allows you to do your stretching should be enough. (This is also figuring that you're going to lift on Monday.
Mark it Zero.


 
Steve Wedan
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-18-06 02:38 PM - Post#185272    



Dan John's two favorite drills for Tabata training are the front squat and thrusters with dumbbells. Because of the intensity of it, he advises only doing it once per week max, doing somewhat less intense cardio on a couple other days of the week. Any more than once, he says, and you'll quickly get discouraged, dreading your upcoming workout, much as Bill Starr wrote about with timed squats.

Not to stir up controversy, but Nautilus training back in the day had similar effects to the Tabata protocol in cardio strength, with muscular strength added in, due to training a full range of machines in the workout, not repeating one exercise. The 1975 West Point study was a dramatic case in point. I never got to the point of doing the Nautilus circuit with that speed on a regular basis, but training at its headquarters had me lying in my own pool of oozing sweat, trying to catch my runaway breath, very much as Laree describes. Fast, heavy weight training; Tabata protocol on one exercise; high-rep, big range o' motion KB lifting: They all get cardio done the better way, in my opinion, which is through high intensity.

Steve


 
Ivan
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-18-06 02:39 PM - Post#185273    



Quote:

Laree said:
6 or 8 20-second bouts separated by 10-second rests is considered the Tabata Protocol.





So the whole thing last only about 6 or 7 minutes?
Ivan Schoen






 
DanMartin
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-18-06 02:42 PM - Post#185274    



Five sets of KB snatches did me in yesterday.
Mark it Zero.


 
Laree
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-18-06 07:49 PM - Post#185275    



'Kay, thanks, Dan. That's what I had in mind.

Ivan, the hard part is 4 or 5 minutes. I use a 15-minute warmup and 10-minute cooldown, making the whole workout 30 minutes. Normally I don't do the final 30-second push, but wanted to test my max heart rate and wasn't there after the first eight intervals. It was the final push that shoved me over the edge and caused me to nearly pass out during the cooldown this morning.


 
Juls
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-18-06 07:55 PM - Post#185276    



Hmmm this is interesting... I have been doing 20 minutes with a 3 minute warm up and a 2.5 minute cool down with 8 sprints at 10mph with a "easy" 90 second at 4.6... I am going to read this site and see if I can talk myself in to this and also break out my heart rate monitor...
278/174/160'ish 43+%/29%/13% http://www.geocities.com/j050496


 
aussiesam
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-18-06 08:32 PM - Post#185277    



Laree what you wrote certainly applies to me. It is the best thing that I have read for ages. It was so lovely being in California last July.I do Spin classes 3 days a week and pump 2 days.I always wear my heart monitor because a great trainer that I am very close to, bought me my monitor and my Gym mates and instructors always motivate and train me as well.I find that my adrenelin flows so much some days that I have to slow my breathing down to get the maximum benefit out of my spin workouts. I just love my gym and walking and outdoor cycling as well. I am doing the fresh fruit and vegs juicing at the moment and spinach tastes quite nice in it.I also take soy protein powder and try each day to eat healthy and try to smile as I go on this fitness lifestyle/journey.
 
CB
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-18-06 10:36 PM - Post#185278    



Quote:

Laree said:
Quote:

CB said:
What's a Tabata ?




You mean who, Charlie: Dr. Izumi Tabata, National Institute of Fitness and Sports in Tokyo

6 or 8 20-second bouts separated by 10-second rests is considered the Tabata Protocol. Here's the research documentation:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query...st_uids=9139179

The Tabata Protocol is generally accepted as the most efficient method of cardiovascular exercise. In the test, after six weeks the subjects increased their anaerobic capacity by 28% and their VO2 max by 14%.

You can do the protocol using any training modality... sprinting, rowing, pulling a sled, jumping rope, whatever. Some methods are a little easier than others to implement, but once you get the hang of how to do it with your chosen tool, it all works.



You're hard core, Lady !
CB ;-)
 
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-19-06 11:49 AM - Post#185279    



If anyone's curious, I ended up taking an off day. My resting heart rate this morning was 66, up 12 beats since I last checked it Wednesday.

Yesterday's training made me miss my final workout of this week's plan -- the lesson here is to control myself in my workouts. See, I was planning a Tabata day yesterday, but didn't plan to max out. The max-out goofed me up for today.

I feel fine, just something to note.


 
Juls
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-19-06 12:00 PM - Post#185280    



I need to check my resting heart rate... Last time I checked it (8 weeks ago) it ws 64... hmmm... Think I need to check in the morning...
278/174/160'ish 43+%/29%/13% http://www.geocities.com/j050496


 
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-19-06 12:12 PM - Post#185281    



Tabata's protocol is a great way to train, a couple things to share for people thinking about trying it. I can't caution you strongly enough to respect the severity of these workouts. The soreness when done with many standard strength exercises is staggering. To tell the truth I don't even think Tabata front squats etc. are very useful.

The key is the intensity of the intervals. Most people characterize it as 8 intervals, 20 seconds sprint, 10 seconds recovery. This is not quite what Tabata's subjects did.

The intensity of the intervals was set on the cycle. The athletes were not instructed to sprint, just to keep up a 80-90 RPM pace. They repeated intervals until they could not maintain that pace. If they made eight or more intervals, the resistance was raised in their next workout.

The differences are subtle but significant. My point is, you don't have to go all out the first time. Don't bury yourself and ease into it, the Japanese olympians did.
The most important test a lifter has to pass
is the test of time.
-Jon Cole


 
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-19-06 12:20 PM - Post#185282    



You know, I forgot about that, Byron. I don't have a pace monitor and was targeting heart rate bumps instead.

How does an individual track RPMs? Is there a gauge or something I can add to my bike? (Cool! Another tool to trick myself... motivating and interesting -- that's what this thread is all about when you flesh it out.)


 
ccrow
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-19-06 12:34 PM - Post#185283    



Laree, regular bike speedometers owuld serve the same purpose, could one be installed on your bike without excessive mcgyvery?
The most important test a lifter has to pass
is the test of time.
-Jon Cole


 
DanMartin
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-19-06 01:32 PM - Post#185284    



Quote:

Laree said:
You know, I forgot about that, Byron. I don't have a pace monitor and was targeting heart rate bumps instead.

How does an individual track RPMs? Is there a gauge or something I can add to my bike? (Cool! Another tool to trick myself... motivating and interesting -- that's what this thread is all about when you flesh it out.)




The device you're looking for is called a tachometer.
Mark it Zero.


 
bulch
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-19-06 01:52 PM - Post#185285    




When i do HIIT i have the bike set on level 6 of 12 for most of the time and put it up to 10 or 11 for the 30 second sprints. i keep the RPM at about 80 for the warm up, 120-130 on the sprints and about 60 on the cool down.
Best thread ever! :)


 
Ivan
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-19-06 02:01 PM - Post#185286    



Quote:

Juls said:
I need to check my resting heart rate... Last time I checked it (8 weeks ago) it ws 64... hmmm... Think I need to check in the morning...




I think the perfect way to check your resting heart rate is:

1. in the morning...
2. before you get out of bed....
3. wearing a heart rate monitor that you have put on the night before.

As you wake don't make any quick movements, but look at your monitor. In fact, if you do this three mornings in a row I think you'll get a true number.
Ivan Schoen






 
Juls
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-19-06 02:02 PM - Post#185287    



Thanks Ivan! Will do!
278/174/160'ish 43+%/29%/13% http://www.geocities.com/j050496


 
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-19-06 02:11 PM - Post#185288    



I'm on it, guys. Thanks.


 
Ivan
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-19-06 02:13 PM - Post#185289    



Quote:

Laree said:
Ivan, the hard part is 4 or 5 minutes. I use a 15-minute warmup and 10-minute cooldown, making the whole workout 30 minutes. Normally I don't do the final 30-second push, but wanted to test my max heart rate and wasn't there after the first eight intervals. It was the final push that shoved me over the edge and caused me to nearly pass out during the cooldown this morning.




This is very similar, if not exactly, to what Julie and I did in the final months of contest prep. Talk about burning fat! I got to 5% and as I recall I think Julie got down to 7%.

This really works...well, you can't be eating Mickey D's, diet has to be in line too, but it will melt fat away very quickly.
Ivan Schoen






 
MJ
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-19-06 02:19 PM - Post#185290    



Laree,
you could add a cadence monitor to your bike. Look at Performanebike.com or bikenashbar.com.
 
DanMartin
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-19-06 02:37 PM - Post#185291    



Taking your temperature in the morning is another way to measure overtraing. Put the bad boy in your armpit.
Mark it Zero.


 
ccrow
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-19-06 02:41 PM - Post#185292    



You could take your blood pressure with one of those little cuff gadgets. These days, a person can get pretty Ivan Drago with gear you can buy at any drug store, if they're so inclined.
The most important test a lifter has to pass
is the test of time.
-Jon Cole


 
*
Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-19-06 09:19 PM - Post#185293    



Laree, they measure elite bike racer by Wattage. No miles per hour....

How many watts a biker is putting out is the standard for the level of conditoning.

This can be obtained in most bike shops....especially there in Calif.

Art
 
Deston Fallon
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-20-06 12:59 AM - Post#185294    



You've heard of overtraining . . . . what about overthinking. Put your sets closer together, and for cardio . . . . . just pump iron faster. It will elevate your heart rate for the 4 to 8 minute you need. I do however walk on the treadmill 12 - 22 minutes a day! Am I repeating myself?
 
Steve Brose
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-20-06 10:19 AM - Post#185295    



I find that the best way to track overtraining is to monitor your overall "feeling" and enthusiasm to train, and also to do the "tap test". Tap the table or another object as quickly as you can. If your ability to tap the table quickly with your fingers decreases significantly then you might be getting overtrained and need a break.
 
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-20-06 12:17 PM - Post#185296    



Quote:

Steve Brose said:
Tap the table or another object as quickly as you can. If your ability to tap the table quickly with your fingers decreases significantly then you might be getting overtrained and need a break.



Never heard of this, Steve. But how do you measure significantly? Is this a self test you do regularly?


Quote:

Art V said:
Laree, they measure elite bike racer by Wattage. No miles per hour....
How many watts a biker is putting out is the standard for the level of conditoning.




I searched a bit yesterday but got bogged down before I figured out what I want, other than cheap. Cadence monitors are harder to find than MPH monitors. Watts burned is interesting, but not as interesting to me as adding the RPM element to my interval training.


And Juls, I meant to add a comment about resting heart rate. You're not really looking for a precise number; instead, you're looking for changes. If it jumps up 10 beats or more, you may be either overtrained or fighting illness. Accuracy isn't so important that I'd wear a heart rate monitor to bed. Just find your pulse and start counting at zero when the second hand goes by or the digital number turns over. Close enough!


 
Juls
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-20-06 12:43 PM - Post#185297    



Quote:

Laree said:

And Juls, I meant to add a comment about resting heart rate. You're not really looking for a precise number; instead, you're looking for changes. If it jumps up 10 beats or more, you may be either overtrained or fighting illness. Accuracy isn't so important that I'd wear a heart rate monitor to bed. Just find your pulse and start counting at zero when the second hand goes by or the digital number turns over. Close enough!




I did it this morning with no heart rate monitor... Didn't feel like wearing it to bed... I did a 15 second count using my watch... It was 64... Good, eh? We shall see...

Thanks for the tip on watching for changes... That is what I will look for!
278/174/160'ish 43+%/29%/13% http://www.geocities.com/j050496


 
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-20-06 01:16 PM - Post#185298    



Juls, next time go for the full minute. A 6-second or 15-second count is fine for mid-cardio measurements, but there's some fluctuation, and a 60-second count is more accurate. You're just laying there anyway, right?

For anyone who's never done this, the trick to accuracy is to take the count before getting up, or even sitting up. If you wake up on your side, or wake up to an alarm clock, roll over onto your back and just rest. Let your heart settle back down before taking your heart rate.


 
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-20-06 01:20 PM - Post#185299    



Thanks Laree... Will do!
278/174/160'ish 43+%/29%/13% http://www.geocities.com/j050496


 
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-21-06 08:50 AM - Post#185300    



Did my first Tabata training this morning......cycle.....for the first day I did 15 minute warm up and only cranked the bike up to a level 5.... for cardio work......8 sets and them a 10 cool down. I will crank it up to a level 7 the next time. Heart rate didn't get above 125. I spun at 100 RPM's

New training routine will be three days Gironda 8X8 full body work and a Tobata protocol twice per week.

Art
 
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-21-06 09:14 AM - Post#185301    



Art, you are a glutton for punishment man :)
The most important test a lifter has to pass
is the test of time.
-Jon Cole


 
DanMartin
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-21-06 09:29 AM - Post#185302    



Quote:

ccrow said:
Art, you are a glutton for punishment man :)




He's a modern savage.
Mark it Zero.


 
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-21-06 01:41 PM - Post#185303    



Any cyclists out there using a cyclocomputer? Can you tell me if I can use one one a spin bike? It has a front flywheel, but no spokes. Will the Cateye Astrale 8 ($26.95 at biketiresdirect.com) work for me?

http://www.epinions.com/content_156326989444

Using RPMs in training adds another point of interest and another training tool for workout variety. On the other hand, I've been using cadence to music plus varying resistance to reach a target heart rate. Adding RPMs to the mix means I'll have to more carefully plan the music, maybe even design workout music in advance. I'm not sure I'm up to the task, lol.


 
Anonymous
Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-21-06 02:03 PM - Post#185304    



I hate it when mom and dad don't agree.
 
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Re: Dave's flat wrong about cardio
02-21-06 02:27 PM - Post#185305    



Laree, this is where the McGyvery will come in :) A bike sensor that uses a magnet, like the one you mentioned, is not too bad of a job but would require drilling a small hole in your spin bike's flywheel. You'd put the magnet in there (drill just deep enough so it's flush), and you're in business. Of course I realize drilling a hole in the flywheel may be unthinkable :)
The most important test a lifter has to pass
is the test of time.
-Jon Cole


 
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