Dan Christensen
Total Posts: 122
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10-11-22 03:18 AM - Post#922496
Hi All
I’ve recently embarked on a program which contains a high volume of back squats. In a case of too much, too soon, my knees are now barking. I suspect I’m at the earliest stages of tendonitis, but I’m seeing the physio next week.
I was making great progress, and I’d rather not drop legs altogether although I’ll update my program based on whatever the physio tells me next week. What are people’s knee-friendly squat alternatives in the meantime? I was thinking box squats, trap bar DLs, leg press, and/ or high-resistance sprints on the exercise bike but I’ll take responsibility to not train into pain.
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JDII
Total Posts: 7319
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So your post is very timely for me. I have exceptional crappy knees, arthritis in both knees and loss of some cartilage as well as occasional swelling. It’s from years of abusing them from my work and heavy squatting. So I figured out how to do some work for the legs while not abusing the knees. Jefferson Deadlifts work well but the best thing I’ve been doing is Box/bench Zercher squats. Simply start from a seated position and basically squat up, bottoms up type. Doing them seated takes a huge amount of pressure off the knees and has actually helped strengthen the knees. Give them a try
Also if you don’t already use knee sleeves or wraps, start . I cannot stress enough the importance of protecting your knees, something I wish I did when I was younger
Edited by JDII on 10-11-22 04:50 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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AAnnunz
Total Posts: 24932
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10-11-22 09:08 AM - Post#922500
When I was powerlifting, above parallel box squats and high handle trap bar deadlifts were my gotos when my knees acted up. Also, let me echo JD's suggestion to use knee sleeves. They make a huge difference.
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DanMartin
Total Posts: 20705
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10-11-22 09:42 AM - Post#922501
Check out the "knees over toes" guy.
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Dan Christensen
Total Posts: 122
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10-11-22 10:00 AM - Post#922502
Check out the "knees over toes" guy.
Thanks Dan
I might be n = 1, but I think the backwards walking from KOT set off some Achilles tendonitis when I tried it (6 months or so ago). That said, he certainly has some great ideas.
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DanMartin
Total Posts: 20705
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10-11-22 10:07 AM - Post#922503
Check out the "knees over toes" guy.
Thanks Dan
I might be n = 1, but I think the backwards walking from KOT set off some Achilles tendonitis when I tried it (6 months or so ago). That said, he certainly has some great ideas.
Maybe, and I mean maybe, you need to reflect. You could be too vigorous when you start your "new" routines.
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Dan Christensen
Total Posts: 122
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10-11-22 10:13 AM - Post#922505
Fair call. It’s certainly the case this time around. With KOT, I thought I broke into the work carefully. Either way, at 48, it’s not a lesson I need to learn again.
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Brian Hassler
Total Posts: 616
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10-11-22 10:30 AM - Post#922508
For me, it was all about getting my glutes and hamstrings stronger and working properly. To that end, I would recomment DJ's hinge tutorials, and in particular the one where he uses PVC pipe teach the hinge for the O lifts. Take that feeling, and apply it to your favorite DL variation or hinge grind.
Secondary to that, I would recommend the Goblet/OHS drill. Keeping the OHS alignment as much as possible helps me to keep from collapsing my hip and leg structure at the bottom and hanging off my knee tendons.
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Jordan D
Total Posts: 771
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10-11-22 11:23 AM - Post#922509
N=1, but switching to high-bar ass to grass squats (at significantly lower weights), with a steady diet of slow eccentric and paused reps, has done wonders for all my lower body joints lately.
After low-bar squatting heavy 5s for years, I’m somewhat amazed that I can finish a workout without any creakiness at all.
Slow eccentrics really have some magic.
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iPood
Total Posts: 2360
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10-11-22 02:14 PM - Post#922510
It may be counterintuitive, but leg curls, nordic curls and glute ham raises keep my knees happy.
"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness
and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums.
It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable.
Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow.
Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't."
Dan Martin |
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Kyle Aaron
Total Posts: 1911
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It's well-known in coaching that a sudden increase in volume tends to lead to injuries. This of course creates a difficulty in training sedentary people, since doing anything at all is a sudden increase in volume.
The self-trained also tend to go for hardcore stuff. The obese guy starts not with walking, but running. The skinny guy starts not with sets of 5, but 20 rep squats. And so on. They want to prove themselves. Thus 50yo guys wanting to get into MMA, "rucking", "bulking" and similar nonsense.
As well, the self-trained typically have imperfect movements. Essentially everyone has imperfect movements, it's just more so with the self-trained. If you have no previous injury history, low volume and low load that's usually okay. But if you have some combination of injury history, high volume and high load then those amplify and ping!
So you ease into things.
Edited by Kyle Aaron on 10-11-22 08:02 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Dan Christensen
Total Posts: 122
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It's well-known in coaching that a sudden increase in volume tends to lead to injuries. This of course creates a difficulty in training sedentary people, since doing anything at all is a sudden increase in volume.
The self-trained also tend to go for hardcore stuff. The obese guy starts not with walking, but running. The skinny guy starts not with sets of 5, but 20 rep squats. And so on. They want to prove themselves. Thus 50yo guys wanting to get into MMA, "rucking", "bulking" and similar nonsense.
As well, the self-trained typically have imperfect movements. Essentially everyone has imperfect movements, it's just more so with the self-trained. If you have no previous injury history, low volume and low load that's usually okay. But if you have some combination of injury history, high volume and high load then those amplify and ping!
So you ease into things.
Thanks Kyle. I'd heard this explained before as the "load spike". I thought I'd internalised it, but I think the anxiety to make progress after a shitty year got the better of me. Talk about false economies!
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Dan Christensen
Total Posts: 122
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Thanks All
Excellent advice, and a bit of provocation to reflect on how I got into this situation.
On balance, I'm just going to leave leg training alone until I see the physio on Monday. In the meantime, I'll get in a little bit more easy cardio, and enjoy resting my legs.
Regards
Dan
Edited by Dan Christensen on 10-12-22 01:52 AM. Reason for edit: Cannot spell
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DanMartin
Total Posts: 20705
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10-12-22 01:43 PM - Post#922531
It may be counterintuitive, but leg curls, nordic curls and glute ham raises keep my knees happy.
Hardly counter-intuitive. Those are key exercises for knee health/stability.
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Andy Mitchell
Total Posts: 5269
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10-14-22 01:34 AM - Post#922550
Leg extensions are great, placing load on the knees where needed.
Similar to walking backwards, even better up a hill, ever better when holding additional weight.
Just my opinion
Nice legs-shame about the face
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DanMartin
Total Posts: 20705
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10-14-22 10:14 AM - Post#922557
Leg extensions and leg curls have gone the way of the Dodo bird. Just like the pullover, but I digress.
In the olden days, meaning pre-"Pumping Iron" if gym had any machines, it was likely a leg-ex/leg-curl set-up. Not all of them were good. Some were more damaging than helpful.But not all. And you had to use them correctly. They were not a machine where you set low rep strength records. There were meant to nourish the joints.
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iPood
Total Posts: 2360
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10-14-22 10:59 AM - Post#922558
Leg extensions and leg curls have gone the way of the Dodo bird. Just like the pullover, but I digress.
In the olden days, meaning pre-"Pumping Iron" if gym had any machines, it was likely a leg-ex/leg-curl set-up. Not all of them were good. Some were more damaging than helpful.But not all. And you had to use them correctly. They were not a machine where you set low rep strength records. There were meant to nourish the joints.
Bar hangs, leg curls, standing calf raises and arm curls seem to have a therapeutic effect on me.
Curiously enough, leg and triceps extensions and lateral raises don’t agree with my joints.
"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness
and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums.
It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable.
Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow.
Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't."
Dan Martin |
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Andy Mitchell
Total Posts: 5269
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10-14-22 08:25 PM - Post#922572
Leg extensions and leg curls have gone the way of the Dodo bird. Just like the pullover, but I digress.
In the olden days, meaning pre-"Pumping Iron" if gym had any machines, it was likely a leg-ex/leg-curl set-up. Not all of them were good. Some were more damaging than helpful.But not all. And you had to use them correctly. They were not a machine where you set low rep strength records. There were meant to nourish the joints.
You really need to write a book, have you been told?
A good leg extension will need the back-rest to be at an angle this allows for the hamstrings to be completely out of the equation when you are at full contraction (which I believe is the most critical part of the exercise) if there’s no backrest; lean back as opposed to leaning forward.
A set of 8~12 is all is needed to do the trick imo
Nice legs-shame about the face
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Dan Christensen
Total Posts: 122
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10-14-22 10:47 PM - Post#922574
Leg extensions and leg curls have gone the way of the Dodo bird. Just like the pullover, but I digress.
So delicious that no intact samples exist, because they were all eaten by sailors?
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iPood
Total Posts: 2360
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10-15-22 04:21 AM - Post#922575
You really need to write a book, have you been told?
We were promised a pamphlet a few weeks ago.
"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness
and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums.
It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable.
Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow.
Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't."
Dan Martin |
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Andy Mitchell
Total Posts: 5269
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10-15-22 04:42 AM - Post#922576
You really need to write a book, have you been told?
We were promised a pamphlet a few weeks ago.
I believe a book of pamphlets
Nice legs-shame about the face
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Jordan D
Total Posts: 771
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10-15-22 07:48 AM - Post#922579
Leg extensions and leg curls have gone the way of the Dodo bird. Just like the pullover, but I digress.
In the olden days, meaning pre-"Pumping Iron" if gym had any machines, it was likely a leg-ex/leg-curl set-up. Not all of them were good. Some were more damaging than helpful.But not all. And you had to use them correctly. They were not a machine where you set low rep strength records. There were meant to nourish the joints.
You really need to write a book, have you been told?
A good leg extension will need the back-rest to be at an angle this allows for the hamstrings to be completely out of the equation when you are at full contraction (which I believe is the most critical part of the exercise) if there’s no backrest; lean back as opposed to leaning forward.
A set of 8~12 is all is needed to do the trick imo
Now this is fascinating.
I’ve been doing high-rep knee lockouts with bands strapped to the squat rack, to pump blood in and make my knees feel good. Never occurred to me that I could have just been doing leg extensions all along. That “lean back” cue makes perfect sense.
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DanMartin
Total Posts: 20705
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10-15-22 10:12 AM - Post#922582
If we were to just look at the posterior portion of our bodies, we would know that the biceps femoris allow for the torso to be pulled upright from a crazy range of motion and to also bring the leg (calves) back as in running.
So most programs feature a hinge, but neglect the lever. (I'm going to explore a Nordic bench in the near future.) Bill Starr in "The Strongest Shall Survive" was light years ahead of his time. (Where it comes to leg ex/leg curl, and calf work, but I digress.)
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Chris Rice
Total Posts: 702
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10-15-22 11:54 AM - Post#922584
Dan Martin. What are your thoughts on the glute ham and reverse hyper machines ?
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DanMartin
Total Posts: 20705
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10-15-22 12:21 PM - Post#922585
Dan Martin. What are your thoughts on the glute ham and reverse hyper machines ?
That exercise has helped a lot of lifters. I've used one for a bit with positive results.
as far as using one for a pre-hab, I have no frame of reference.
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Matt_T
Total Posts: 379
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So your post is very timely for me. I have exceptional crappy knees, arthritis in both knees and loss of some cartilage as well as occasional swelling. It’s from years of abusing them from my work and heavy squatting. So I figured out how to do some work for the legs while not abusing the knees. Jefferson Deadlifts work well but the best thing I’ve been doing is Box/bench Zercher squats. Simply start from a seated position and basically squat up, bottoms up type. Doing them seated takes a huge amount of pressure off the knees and has actually helped strengthen the knees. Give them a try
Also if you don’t already use knee sleeves or wraps, start . I cannot stress enough the importance of protecting your knees, something I wish I did when I was younger
Starting to think elbow sleeves fall in the same bracket
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Andy Mitchell
Total Posts: 5269
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10-15-22 11:16 PM - Post#922593
Dan Martin. What are your thoughts on the glute ham and reverse hyper machines ?
That exercise has helped a lot of lifters. I've used one for a bit with positive results.
as far as using one for a pre-hab, I have no frame of reference.
The nautilus (directly designed by Arthur Jones) hip/back (to my mind) is the most important machine ever designed possibly more than the pullover.
A machine like most where the targeted musculature spends a lot of time in the contracted and extended time under load is mostly esoteric.
And if not done correctly can cause problems but done correctly can stimulate growth and strength of the glutes and low back unbelievably quickly.
The duopoly design was no better only easier to get in and out of.
Nice legs-shame about the face
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Dan Christensen
Total Posts: 122
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10-17-22 07:30 AM - Post#922612
This conversation has moved on really nicely, and a lot of great ideas that I'll try out (but not all at once or at 100% to start with).
To close the loop on my end, physio isn't too concerned with my situation (knee caps not tracking properly + a bit of overuse + maybe some underlying arthritis). I'm headed back in for a bit of release work, and I'm going to drop squats for a bit in favour of split squats and some other stuff. So long as I stay out of pain though, he seems pretty happy for me to keep training.
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Sean S
Total Posts: 44
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10-17-22 09:23 AM - Post#922615
I've recently had some very minor pain but noteworthy swelling in my left knee. I was doing some KOT work 1-2 times per week.
I've gone to mostly training my legs with isometric holds and my knee is improving. It seems lots of repetitive motion causes problems for me. It may not be the answer for everyone, but it's a tool that my be useful for some.
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