01-11-22 11:35 AM - Post#916039    

Hi DJ,

I hope andpray you're well this morning sir.

Huge fan of yours as you know.

I know you're fan of Tim's. Apparently, he's a big fan of hindu pushups which I like as well.

I watched a youtube video recently of you saying that hindu pushups trash the shoulders. I couldn't disagree more. For the record, I'm a fan of all kinds of pushups (hand release, handstand, "regular", clapping, etc.) I'm also a fan of overhead pressing.

However, everybody is different build-wise, injury history wise, etc. and I think it's pretty obvious that something like hindu pushups (goblet squats too for that matter) are great because they enhance strength, mobility/flexibility and give you give a great a cardio workout if you do enough of them or combine them with other movements.

Then again, I guess it depends on your goals/hobbies. I'm not a weightlifter or powerlifter nor a thrower.

I think people pressing weights 300-400lbs overhead might actually lead to more shoulder issues than simply doing bw hindu pushups. Either way, many things can lead to injury. It goes without saying, that I'm not referring to crazy numbers of hindup pushups everyday/every other day like some lunatics on the internet espouse (i.e. 500-1000).

I'm talking doing sane numbers for general strength and mobility. It actually strengthens you in a different type arc/plane of motion and in extreme/full range of motion similar to what Bud Jeffries says. That's helpful for many sports and just everyday life. I throw a few in when I'm doing tumbling or a light bw circuit at work to get off my lazy butt while sitting all day.

Love doing suitcase/farmer carries with water jugs up and down stairs too ala Dan John style. )

Just curious and something to think about that's all sir.

01-11-22 01:37 PM - Post#916040    

I was asked, I answered. I have no push up agenda...never have.

We did them as kids for football and I had no issues but then people started to do them for literally 1,000.

Like everything, I think there are better tools. Every minute you spend doing these, learning these, you could be do a suitcase carry.

Or whatever.

I'm never sure why people ask me questions and then don't like what I answer. I don't force anyone to do anything (ask my family).

Daniel John Just handing down what I was handed down... Make a Difference. Live. Love. Laugh. Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude) Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk. Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth. Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights. Reread great books. Say thank you

01-11-22 03:24 PM - Post#916043    

Only two things have ever trashed my shoulders: overtraining one-arm chin-ups and Hindu push-ups.

But they do make me laugh and think fondly of the Matt Furey era of Internet fitness. Those were the days.

01-12-22 07:07 AM - Post#916062    

• Jordan D Said:

Matt Furey was my introduction to internet fitness. Think I still have his book floating around my house somewhere. Just had to look him up, still has a Facebook and Instagram page.

My journey took me from Matt Furey to Steve Maxwell to here.

01-12-22 09:36 AM - Post#916067    

I understand all of the aforementioned points.

Again, as I stated, I think doing them in sane numbers i.e. sets of 10, 25 etc. have GREAT value. If they are that "stressful" to you and your shoulders at that low level of load/reps, then there's something wrong no offense. Everybody does them, not just "Matt Furey." You can still mix in kb presses, other pushup variations, overhead pressing of any pick (I love Z-presses at home), etc.

Why does it stir up so much emotion? It's actually kind of funny.

DJ-To use your own quote against you respectfully, who said it's an "either/or?" Do both!

I did a few hindu pushups on Tuesday (3-4 sets of 10 mixed with several other exercises in a circuit not that different than your "Humane burpee circuit" minus the kb (at work), and a "few" easy/moderate sets of suitcase carries with my dumbbell last night at home for fun.

It's not either/or and in fact, you do "pumps" which are basically downward dog/cobra and extremely similar to hindu pushups. You're funny.

)



It's really not this dogmatic folks. Honestly, I've seen this dogmatism on nearly every site. Apply Sifu Bruce Lee's wisdom folks, apply what's useful from DJ, Pavel, Matt F, etc. who cares and reject what doesn't work for YOU!

There is NO cookie cutter one size fits all this kb routine is the best or that routine is the best. Wrong.

01-12-22 10:04 AM - Post#916068    

I have found that not every movement or exercise "agrees with" every person no matter how hard they try to perfect it. Hindu push ups work well for Tim Anderson but not so much for Dan John.
I have struggled to learn this lesson for myself. I look to people like Dan John or Tim Anderson for ideas, but ultimately what I take from them is principles. Then I experiment with specific movements in a way that fits the principles they teach. I have found that certain things like leopard crawls, KB swings, and frequent push ups just don't agree with my body. I have found movements that don't cause me issues instead. Those movements have given me the ability to perform dynamically in my martial art and the ability to play tag and kickball with my kids with no pain or stiffness. Ultimately, that's what matters, not whether I can do lots of KB swings or a particular push up variation.

01-12-22 11:14 AM - Post#916070    

• warrior Said:

It's funny that you should post that here. Dan has been saying for literally decades that it's not moral theology, and Dan's pragmatic, out of the box thinking (and rapier wit!) is exactly why I started following him all those years ago. It's also why I continue to apply Dan John lessons and analogies in my daily life probably more even than in working out.

All of which is to say that if anyone is reading Dan's comments as dogmatic, then they are most likely missing some context. An opinion is not an axiom-- that's why they have different words for those things.

01-12-22 11:45 AM - Post#916071    

Sean S.

Sure, I understand that. Simple biomechanics. That was the same point I was making in the beginning of my initial post if you'll reread it please. Ex: "everybody is different build wise, injury history, etc."

Mileage on a typical american sedentary civilian guy at 40-50 years old vs. a very active guy/served in the military (save for desk jobs) rec sports, etc. served at 40-50 years old is quite a bit different as well.

I had a desk job but also pulled Security Forces Duty twice after 9/11, played rec sports, was a fitness leader every year, etc. but I agree.

Also, I am a ISSA Certified S/C coach and former Physical Therapy tech......plus fitness leader in the military for 21 years, martial arts in Japan, rec sports, etc. so I have a pretty decent amount of experience.

I understand your points and very cool. What martial arts do you train in?

I just wanted to hear from DJ and get his logic on the matter. Not really that big of a deal and I agree with your points.

01-12-22 11:47 AM - Post#916072    

Brian-I love Dan's stuff.

It's just kind of funny actually as he does a very similar move (pumps) as hindu pushups, that's all )

Yes, I understand vocabulary fairly well considering my father was a linguist and spoke several different languages. I've always been strong with English as well and an avid reader.

I'm well aware of the difference. Thanks for the lesson though.

01-12-22 12:29 PM - Post#916074    

Neither dips nor hindu pushups have ever bothered me. But I’m well aware that I’m an N of one experiment.

Dan has a pretty vast experience training all kinds of athletes (from high school jocks to pro athletes and special forces operatives), so his opinions are backed by an N of… thousands?

I know where he is coming from when he doesn’t recommend hindu push ups. And I agree with him even if I thrive doing them.

There’s no need to get all defensive about it. We’re all friends here.

"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums. It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable. Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow. Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't." Dan Martin

01-12-22 12:40 PM - Post#916075    

ipood-I understand and good points.

However, I would say that dips, based on my experience as well affects more people's shoulders generally than hindu pushups. Good comparison but not quite the same thing.

Dips are very much tricep/pec/shoulder heavy depending on how one leans/one's build, and some core where hindu pushups also have the load distributed and force many more muscles to go through full rom/contration such as hips, lower back, neck, lats, etc. Much more of a full body move and a little less upper focused even though it stress stresses your upper body especially your shoulders/triceps.

For the record, I was not Spec Ops but I have trained with and worked out with them (combatives, fitness, etc) many times in the past.

I completely understand. I'm not being defensive. It could be just misunderstood due to email/message/text.

)

01-12-22 01:42 PM - Post#916079    

• warrior Said:

I train in Kuk Sool Won, a Korean martial art. I live in a small town and it's the only real local option (5 minutes from my house). Fortunately the instructor is excellent and has experience applying the art in combat sports. I also get to assist in the classes my two boys are in so it's a great family activity for us.
For the record, I haven't found hindu push ups to carry any more or less injury risk for me than standard push ups. Too much frequency of either irritates my shoulders a bit. I do really like the super slow motion hindu push up I saw from Tim Anderson. You can get a lot done with only 3-5 reps.
I do enjoy topics like this here. It's nice to hear other perspectives and opinions in a reasonable, civilized discussion.

Tim Anderson likes Hindu Pushups
01-12-22 02:03 PM - Post#916080    

BChase doesn't like Hindu Pushups

It's basically chaturanga going from downward dog into upward dog.

One or two is enough when doing yoga. When my daily yoga sessions are over so are the movements.

Edited by BChase on 01-12-22 02:06 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

01-12-22 04:09 PM - Post#916083    

Sean S. I completely understand. That's really cool! Like your two boys, I too started out as a child with my father training in Tae Kwon Do on a military base in Spain. Later Krav/Combatives in California, BJJ/JKD/Thai boxing, etc in Japan, Kuwait, etc.

I understand completely. As I said in my initial post, I do a variety of pushing movements (i.e. handstand holds and pushups, hindu pushups, fingertip/knuckle, hand release, etc.)

I'm glad to see some of the Military branches finally get rid of the conventional pushup only because so many guys were cheating and doing 100 in 60 seconds half range of motion. The hand release version is tougher and DJ has a great article re this very topic.

Please see the link below:

https://www.dragondoor.com/in_shape_for_what_the _hkc_toolkit_assessment/

Tim Anderson likes Hindu Pushups
01-13-22 10:52 AM - Post#916089    

I often include push-ups in my circuits on conditioning days, and one thing I’ve found is I have to warmup my shoulders beforehand if I’ve chosen the Hindu variation, else I find them bothersome. I’ll go out on a limb here and speculate that it’s the same for many if not most other older and/or larger athletes.

While I hate doing Hindus, I still cycle them in because they hit more muscle groups than standard pushups. Also, putting the spine in extension with the pressup at the finish (cobra? upward dog?) is good for my ancient lumbars and highly recommended by many PTs (e.g., those who use the MacKenzie Method).

Be strong. Be in shape. Be a man among men, regardless of your age or circumstances.

Edited by AAnnunz on 01-13-22 11:21 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

01-13-22 11:33 AM - Post#916090    

My push-up journey now has me doing "Atlas" push-ups. Which is no more than doing push-ups with my hands on two boxes so I can get a deeper range of motion. Five sets of 5 is all I do. YMMV

Mark it Zero.

01-13-22 12:47 PM - Post#916091    

DanMartin-nice sir! Those provide a great stretch.

AAnuz-I understand your points sir. What do you consider "older?" I'm not exactly "young" but that's relative and I definitely have a ton of mileage on my body for my age.

I understand completely as I was a PT tech for several years and a patient myself a plethora of times after serving 21 years and playing rec sports (mostly mma and basketball).

Hindu's just seem to open me up naturally after a few reps......shoulders, hips, lower back, chest, neck, etc.

Tim Anderson likes Hindu Pushups
01-13-22 01:24 PM - Post#916092    

As Dan Martin always says, “YMMV”, but for this crowd I’d guess age 40+. I’m nearly twice that and can knock off a couple dozen standard push-ups cold without a prob, but I wouldn’t do any Hindus without first doing some external/internal rotations, banded disconnects, etc.

Be strong. Be in shape. Be a man among men, regardless of your age or circumstances.

Edited by AAnnunz on 01-13-22 01:52 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

01-13-22 02:44 PM - Post#916093    

AAnnunz-I understand generally what you're saying sir. I completely understand. But like you said YMMV.

I'm 45 years "young." So you're likely around 60-70? That's super impressive! You're my hero and that's my goal is to continue and maintain what I have going strong into my 50's and 60's. Considering I've had some really bad injuries (2 hernias, partial pec tendon tear, tendonitis, leg infection, bone breaks, twisted rt ankle 15 times over the years playing ball, etc) I can still out PT many guys in their 20's and hang or beat them in pickup basketball. I still play occasionally near Ft Eustis and Langley AFB. Much more aches and pains that don't seem to go away but God is good!

I do shoulder dislocates and many many other things. I don't do a lot of warming up for bodyweight only movements though such as hindu pushups, (just did hand release pushups mixed in a circuit by my desk at work), etc.

I'm a HUGE stretching, mobility, rom, flexibility (in my DJ voice "whatever we're calling it these days), etc. fanatic and actually have great rom/mobility especially for 6'2.

I can stand up from the ground with no hands several ways, even the hardest way which is ATG squat, hang on a pullup bar 2 minutes, sit in a ATB bw squat position for 20 minutes, squat atg with my toes touching the wall ala Pavel Tsatsouline etc.

I don't really practice pistol/one leg squats and just did one for the heck of it after my circuit. God is good. I've been at this since I was 4 with my father on base in Spain shooting guns/trap shooting, bows, making blow guns, martial arts, soccer, baseball, basketball, tennis, etc.

01-13-22 02:49 PM - Post#916094    

• warrior Said:

And that’s before you even realize that, generally speaking, your maxes are his warm up sets. At least mine are.

"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums. It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable. Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow. Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't." Dan Martin

01-13-22 03:01 PM - Post#916095    

Oh really? wow, that's super impressive!

Like what lifts/maxes? I'm not a powerlifter nor a weightlifter but let's hear his best lifts. Not sure how this started lol.

I used to work with a guy in the military that was 60 and thick/strong. He was in the Air National Guard and LAPD for his full time civilian job.

Probably weighed about 230 mostly muscle and he was about 6'0. I watched him fall down to the ground, ala Batman style and crank out 50-60 pushups perfect form like it was nothing showing a young guy in our unit that was talking trash.

I was laughing my tail off.

01-13-22 03:20 PM - Post#916096    

Love this quote by DanMartin by the way:

I totally agree with him actually. That's how I think of my training. How can I continue aging and maintain some of my minimums, not just maxes, etc.

Everybody's hobbies/goals/value set varies. I could care less about deadlifting 500lbs as I'm not a powerlifter nor weightlifter but I do think it's cool that I can still kip up from the ground at 45 like when I was 25. Or that I can still broad jump over 9 feet. I'm just a little fatter and more banged up now. )

""I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness
and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums.
It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable.
Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow.
Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't."
Dan Martin"

Tim Anderson likes Hindu Pushups
01-14-22 08:41 AM - Post#916107    

• iPood Said:

Aww, thanks, guys. Now that I’m closer to 80 than I am 70, it’s time to back off from the heavy stuff and just have fun, while trying to preserve what’s left of my worn shoulders and spine.

Be strong. Be in shape. Be a man among men, regardless of your age or circumstances.

Edited by AAnnunz on 01-14-22 08:41 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

01-14-22 09:49 AM - Post#916110    

AAnunz-Nice, and you live close by I see. Just moved to VA a few years ago and have lived all over the US/world. My wife and my parents are originally from this area though/North Carolina too.

Nearly 80 years "young" is such a blessing and God is good! We call that "seasoned." )

What are your best lifts and what was/is your main motivation/past time in the context of exercise? Powerlifter? etc.?

For ex: I play a lot of rec league & random pickup basketball games at various parks and on military bases, etc., I specialize in helping people improve their PT test scores, am a ISSA certified trainer/Physical therapy tech as well so very focused on posture/rehab, gate/biomechanics, asymmetries, train martial arts, very focused on/into "faith & fitness" and the mental and spiritual facet of life, sports, etc. Have worked in the ministry in several roles for nearly 30 years.

I'm more of the tall slim guy who you underestimate because I'm not "buff" but will kill you in most rec sports like basketball, any type of race/jumping event, sparring/rolling, bodyweight/gymnastics type calisthenics playing around with the kids at the park, etc. )

God is good!

Tim Anderson likes Hindu Pushups
01-14-22 11:41 AM - Post#916112    

I seem to recall a triple bodyweight deadlift a couple years ago or so. Which is WAY (and I mean waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay) more than impressive.

Taking age into acount, it’s truly jaw dropping.

"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums. It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable. Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow. Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't." Dan Martin

Edited by iPood on 01-14-22 11:42 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

01-14-22 12:03 PM - Post#916114    

Yeah, if he's 80 years old, or 25 I don't care! triple bodyweight deadlift?!

Yeah, he's got me! )

Like I said though, I'm not a powerlifter or olympic weightlifter. That's incredibly impressive regardless!

01-15-22 12:21 AM - Post#916126    

• DanMartin Said:

Maybe the most underrated push-up variation I know of.

Hindu push-ups are something I want to be able to do for the mobility benefits but it inevitably ends up bothering my shoulders or elbows even with tiny, tiny volume. I'll stick to the normal push-ups...

01-17-22 08:57 AM - Post#916148    

Mission.failed-I understand.

I've had more elbow issues, in the past, not know from pullups than any type of pushup.

Everybody's different.

I do all kind of pushup variations not just one. Even after partially tearing my left pec tendon many years ago. Hindu, conventional, hand release, handstand, etc.

01-17-22 11:37 PM - Post#916162    

We tend to like what we're good at and dislike what we suck at. Once we've decided that, we keep doing what we're good at, and get better at it. We also avoid doing what we suck at, and get worse at it.

We are all, though, good at rationalising this. And this is why we all need coaches - it's not just the knowledge, it's an objective eye from a person who isn't trying to justify what they want to do, and instead does what they need to do.

Athletic Club East Strength in numbers

01-18-22 09:08 AM - Post#916166    

Kyle-Very good points and very philosophical! I dig it!

01-19-22 02:57 AM - Post#916192    

Not able to do one arm chins, but Hindu Push-ups trash, or at least it feels like it, my shoulders to.

In a yt video Aleks Salkin said that by just doing Hindu pushups and Hindu squats together with pull-ups you'd have a great routine in all its simplicity. I wanted it to work, but unfortunately not. My shoulder girdle or rotator cuffs or what ever feels strain after each try

01-19-22 09:24 AM - Post#916203    

So sorry to hear that.

How about hand release pushups?

How do those feel?

01-19-22 02:01 PM - Post#916214    

Doing Hindu pushups with the full scoop often resulted in pain in my lumber - I have one desiccated disc there.
Shortening the ROM helps me avoid this but I just avoid them.
Easier to avoid than to worry about going to deep in the moment.
Ring dips + OH pressing self limit in better ways for me.

Less Hercules, more Achilles.

01-19-22 02:16 PM - Post#916217    

Ledfistaco-I completely understand sir.

Overhead pressing hurts my left side a lot as I partially tore my left pec tendon bench pressing when I first joined the military. Horribly painful. Dips hurt too.

I'm beginning to love the hand release pushups honestly, ) which are a little uncomfortable too but doable.

With a straight rigid body, most people I run into can't do 30 straight or 30 in a minute much less the 50-60 in 2 minutes the military requires. It will give you a quick "cardio" too )

Hindus are great all around but everybody's different.

01-19-22 02:18 PM - Post#916219    

DJ-I'm not trying to ask you questions and then not like your answer. I'm just trying to understand your logic that's all sir.

I'm learning your list )

You don't like: clubs, single leg moves, hindu pushups, noted )

Like I said too, there a bunch of variations for pushups that are great as you already know sir.

02-16-22 04:33 PM - Post#917199    

I just learned that "pumps" are basically hindu pushups )

For the record, I only usually do 3 sets of 10 hindu pushups along with other moves in a circuit. Or, occassionally, I'll do a set of 25, 50 etc. hindu pushups in one set.

This is along with other pushup variations that I do/rotate and it's also working around a 25 year old partial pec tendon tear as well.