08-03-21 04:19 PM - Post#912343    

Why are squats treated differently than the other basic compound lifts? If 20 rep squats cause muscle mass gain, why follow it with three sets of ten for bench, row, and press? Why not 20 rep max all of them, and a 20 rep deadlift for good measure?

Re: 20 rep everything
08-03-21 05:05 PM - Post#912345    

I can't really comment on whether you or anyone should do (or not do) 20 reps on everything. I have seen programmes with 20 rep sets....what I will say is that 20 rep deadlifts 'after' 20 rep squats seems to be a sure fire way to overdo the lower back.

Richard

20 rep everything
08-03-21 06:08 PM - Post#912346    

I am the least of people on this board that can answer this. I assume the reason is is that you can stop at the top of a heavy squat and suck air, heavy weight with the bench and press your shoulders will fatigue and rows forget about it. Also what Richard said about the lower back and squats with deadlift.

My 2 cents,
William

20 rep everything
08-03-21 07:51 PM - Post#912347    

Some lifts just work with high reps, some just don't. With the bar, squats do, deads don't.

Or, the usual, "try it and report back." :-)



Edited by BrianBinVA on 08-03-21 07:52 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

Re: 20 rep everything
08-03-21 08:26 PM - Post#912348    

The problem with that is it takes too much away from the task at hand. Namely the set of 20 squats. Its not that you couldn't do it, its that most 20 rep squat programs use a few simple compound multi joint upper body exercises as a warm-up/prelude for the all-out set of 20 rep squats.

I've mentioned this before, but I never could get with the Super Squats basic program of a few sets of bench presses and barbell rows before one all out set of squats. I tried, I by that I mean I worked up to 325 x 20 numerous times, but it just didn't feel right. YMMV of course but I found plugging in a back-off set of 20 after my last set of squats worked best. 325 x 20 felt just as bad, but I was more comfortable and felt the groove.

Mark it Zero.

20 rep everything
08-04-21 02:36 AM - Post#912349    

The real issue isn't doing 20 reps with some light weight, the issue is doing more next time - and for how long can you do more?

Try it. Use the empty bar. Just the empty bar. Seriously.

Squat it for 20. Press it for 20. Do RDLs for 20. Observe how the set feels. Then think about what it'd mean to add 2.5kg/5lbs to the bar next time, and keep doing so 3 workouts a week for 13 weeks. Assuming just a few missed workouts you'd be up to 100kg/225lb.

What you'll find is that the squats you can do 20 and add 5lbs next time. Some time around bodyweight on the bar it's going to start feeling horrible, but you discover that if you can do at least 12 reps, you literally always can do another rep - the question is whether you really want to.

With the presses you will get stuck pretty early on. You'll go from 20 reps with one weight, to something like 12 with 5lb more, and then next time you'll be lucky to do 5 or so. Press falls off very quickly.

As for RDLs, once you hit 60kg/135lb you can now rest the bar on the floor between reps and change to conventional deadlift. Now here is the big issue: safety.

In my gym when an under-35yo male comes along I hear one of two things. The first is, "I got my squat work weights up to 90-110kg and backed off to work on form, I've never felt it was good enough to go back up again, that was two years ago."

The second story I hear is, "I hurt my back deadlifting." And invariably it was sloppy form. Now consider: do you think you can keep good form through 20 reps of deadlift? If you can deadlift 180kg, I think you can keep good form with 60kg x20. But would you be able to do it with 140kg x20?

So at some point the high-rep deadlift gets messy, and you get hurt. "But I'll stop if my form is bad." Really? After having done a 20 rep squat and 20 rep press will your mind be clear enough to notice? If you get a slight twinge, will you stop? Really? Are you sure ego won't take over... just a little bit?

But really, just try it with the empty bar - squat, press and deadlift, 20 reps each - and think about what it'd be like to come back again next time and do that with 5lbs more, for 6-13 weeks.

Athletic Club East Strength in numbers

Edited by Kyle Aaron on 08-04-21 02:38 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

08-04-21 02:36 AM - Post#912350    

I actually quite like this higher rep range, although per everyone else it seems to fit some movements better than others.

One of my favoured workouts is a few lop rep sets of snatch grip DL with fat grips, then a single set each each of 20-25 reps in behind the back shrugs, dumbbell bench press, machine rows, machine pullovers, curls and triceps extensions.

08-04-21 05:40 AM - Post#912351    

I will concede the point on overhead presses for 20 reps being unsustainable, since I've hurt my shoulders on that movement in the past. Bench press, too, since form breaks down and ego takes over too easily. But deadlifts, rows, and decline BP or weighted dip seem very doable.

I have found 20 rep deadlifts more doable in the past for more consecutive weeks than even squats. The most common versions of the 20 rep squat program include 1 set of 15 RDLs/SLDLs or rack lifts anyway.

Obviously one has to try it to find the flaws, if there are any. After 100 years of writing about 20 rep squat programs, surely someone has tried it. Cant seem to find it written anywhere tho.

08-04-21 07:49 AM - Post#912354    

20 rep squats is not simply one set of 20.

It is meant to be one set of 20 that is literally the hardest thing you ever did and it took you pausing and shaking and grinding and breathing and panting and huffing and puffing and grunting those 20 reps out and then you go sit in the corner for 10 minutes.

You can’t do that with bench or press …and you probably shouldn’t with deadlifts either

Log

08-04-21 10:00 AM - Post#912356    

Great responses, everyone. There probably is value to higher reps...but only for weeks (at most). I did sets of 20 back when I read one of Bass's Ripped books. It worked for like three...four?...weeks but that was it. And, I was going light, light for most of it.

Do it and prove it: that's usually my best advice.

Daniel John Just handing down what I was handed down... Make a Difference. Live. Love. Laugh. Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude) Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk. Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth. Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights. Reread great books. Say thank you

20 rep everything
08-04-21 10:03 AM - Post#912357    

I'm pretty sure I'm the oldest regular poster here, so my experiences may only be of value to fellow senior citizens. Be that as it may:

• For about a decade (approx ages 60-70), I did at least one 20-rep squat cycle a year. Once I got beyond 1.5 times bodyweight, it trashed my back. I finally had to stop because the last two years I actually injured myself (minor strains).
• Anything beyond 15 reps for RDLs or speed deadlifts was also a recipe for disaster for my lumbars...and even those 15 rep sets were bothersome with challenging loads. Doing a heavy single rest/pause set, 20 rep squat style, is unthinkable.
• I sometimes do a 20+ rep set of close grip barbell bench presses as a finisher after heavy sets with competition grip. Taken to failure, it has merit (builds and strengthens triceps). High rep DB flat and low incline bench presses are known chest builders. I find 20+ rep sets taken to failure very productive. These are done as part of a pyramid though. I've never tried just one single gut wrenching set.
• Heavy barbell rows can be tough on the lower back in the higher rep ranges. However, an all-out set of very high rep DB rows can really pack muscle on the upper back. Powerlifters call these "Krocs." I love them. The goal is at least 20 reps per arm.
• You didn't mention 20+ rep pullups and dips, but these are a given...and they are awesome upper body builders, especially weighted.

If you're looking to make a high intensity 20 rep routine out of the above, I don't think you can do better than squats, pullups, and dips.

Be strong. Be in shape. Be a man among men, regardless of your age or circumstances.

Edited by AAnnunz on 08-04-21 01:34 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

08-04-21 12:41 PM - Post#912362    

When training for the hand n thigh, not having the requisite set up, I would work up to 365 and work deadlifts from above the knee for higher reps ~ 15 to 20 reps. I do not know how much it helped the target lift but the added volume really beat up my hands something bad.

08-04-21 12:56 PM - Post#912364    

Remember that the original 20-rep squat program required starting with your 10-rep max.

20 rep everything
08-04-21 01:38 PM - Post#912366    

Squat is probably the one exercise that you can safely grind past exhaustion without significant technique breakdown. The breathing squat essentially becomes a series of 1-rep maxes after rep 10. It's just about how much suffering you're willing to endure. You can't do that with pressing movements. At some point the bar is just not going to move. And grinding pulls past failure is probably just a bad idea all around.

"The trouble about always trying to preserve the health of the body is that it is so difficult to do without destroying the health of the mind."~GK Chesterton

Edited by Browser on 08-04-21 01:46 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

20 rep everything
08-04-21 01:46 PM - Post#912367    

• Jordan D Said:

Therein lies the rub. I think a two-day, six-week cycle of squat/push/pull at that level of intensity is doable for many of the guys here, but throw in a hinge and something's probably gonna break sooner than later.

Be strong. Be in shape. Be a man among men, regardless of your age or circumstances.

Edited by AAnnunz on 08-04-21 01:51 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

Re: 20 rep everything
08-04-21 02:02 PM - Post#912368    

• Browser Said:

Rack the bar, take three to five breaths, unrack and continue. Works well for the bench press, especially if you have a spotter unrack the weight. Don't know about the standing press.

As a powerlifter, I assume you've done strip sets. That's another good way to turn a ten-rep set into twenty.

Be strong. Be in shape. Be a man among men, regardless of your age or circumstances.

08-04-21 02:20 PM - Post#912369    

You could. Doggcrap training is basically that*. So are myo reps. A 20 rep squat routine is rest pause to get to 20 reps, not a high rep routine.

*Ironically, you're NOT supposed to do this with squats on that program, although you are doing 20 reps on squats.

08-04-21 02:22 PM - Post#912370    

I'll stick to 20 swings or snatches thank you.

20 rep everything
08-04-21 07:38 PM - Post#912377    

Regardless of the number (rep’s) for me it’s the last two of the set - that’s where it all happens.

But rarely ever do over 12 for upper body as I just don’t need to do all those rep’s prior to fatigue.
To do 20 rep stuff I needed to start off at 12 to 15 and then overtime I’d build it up to 20, when I got there I’d spend a number of workouts with that number until I owned it and then increased the weight by 5kg and then go back to 15 and build again…either way it’s very difficult to spend a lot of training time in the 20’s especially when the said exercise is intense and you’re also trying to progress in other exercises in the same program…

Twenty on the lower body stuff however really gets me huffing and puffing and where I like my HR to be safely.

Nice legs-shame about the face

Edited by Andy Mitchell on 08-04-21 07:44 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

08-04-21 07:42 PM - Post#912378    

Just to add I never followed and protocol that need an excell spreadsheet to follow or cycles I just do the work, takes 3 full days to recover sometimes 4

Nice legs-shame about the face

08-04-21 10:10 PM - Post#912382    

My recollection is that Perry Rader is the guy who often gets credited for the 20 rep breathing squat. Google “rader 20 rep breathing squat program,” for more information.

08-04-21 11:11 PM - Post#912383    

• Upwind Said:

And pullovers .

Kelso’s “shrug book” is a great resource for this and twenty reppers

Nice legs-shame about the face

08-05-21 09:55 AM - Post#912393    

Rader had several high rep programs, including a clean and jerk one and a Deadlift one. There’s a thread on this forum from last year I believe about the rader routines.

Maybe my iron game history is off, but wasn’t it John McAllum who “invented” the 20 rep Squat program, then it was captured and expanded on in strossen’s super squats.

08-05-21 04:39 PM - Post#912406    

• Jordan Derksen Said:

McCallum came along a lot later than the invention of the program. I believe that Joseph Hise, a legendary character in the strength training world, was experimenting with the 20 rep squat routine in the 1930s. He wrote to publisher Mark Berry about it, and Berry started hawking it. I think Rader picked up on it around the same time. McCallum did his Keys to Progress series decades later.

Why are you squatting in the curl rack?

08-05-21 07:20 PM - Post#912415    

• Adam S Said:

This.

Mark it Zero.

08-07-21 10:59 PM - Post#912462    

And indeed, most of the Super Squats book by Strossen is that history, since explaining the routine and nutrition takes about a paragraph.

08-08-21 06:04 PM - Post#912477    

My local used book store has the book. I read it before (seems like a million years ago) and the history is good.

McCallum's KTP probably summed the workout the best. One of the first articles I ever read on S and H.

Daniel John Just handing down what I was handed down... Make a Difference. Live. Love. Laugh. Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude) Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk. Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth. Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights. Reread great books. Say thank you