Chris Rice
Total Posts: 702
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03-23-21 06:01 PM - Post#909041
Any of you old timers remember the DARD? It was the same thing as his Tib bar thing. I made a bunch of them for people back in the day.
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read the bread book
Total Posts: 92
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where did you find "the program" to read?
I signed up and paid. Then you get a link to a long HTML page explaining the ten or so exercises, and a video on each. He calls it the "Knee Ability Zero Picture Book". At the bottom he sums up the 10 exercises. It's a little unclear on programming - do you start with all 10, or master the first 3-4 before progressing? - but it's clear that you're supposed to do 3x per week (e.g. Mon/Wed/Fri).
this is the same thing I'm seeing. Someone above mentioned backwards walking; I don't see that in the "picture book" for zero.
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Brian Hassler
Total Posts: 616
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03-23-21 09:13 PM - Post#909047
I had the same thought about programming, but if you watch the videos there are a couple of places where at the beginning he'll say not to start on that exercise until you've mastered the previous one.
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Steve Rogers
Total Posts: 6158
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- read the bread book Said:
...
this is the same thing I'm seeing. Someone above mentioned backwards walking; I don't see that in the "picture book" for zero.
He calls it ROKP (Reverse Out of Knee Pain). It's the warmup for the Zero Program. It can be done unloaded or with chains, a sled etc.
| "Coyote is always waiting, and Coyote is always hungry." |
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D Berta
Total Posts: 141
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I like his ambition at least. He has video where his wife explains how miserable he was to live with because he was always dealing with his broken body. If the intro-program works half as well as he says it does, it will help me with some long term chronic knee pain I have had.
I get the impression that his popularity has grown so fast that he is pushing it to keep up with content refinement and his family. A lot of random videos feature his wife and infant as he juggles content creation and family life.
His intro program is 12 weeks and then there's more after that. Being part way through the intro program, it cannot really comment on the other ones, that said some of it reads more haphazard and like more that I want to get into. Again his content refinement is being outstripped right now by demand to get this stuff going.
Edited by D Berta on 03-24-21 08:49 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Jordan D
Total Posts: 771
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03-24-21 09:10 AM - Post#909056
He was producing content like this a year ago before he blew up. When I found him, I think he only had 10,000 followers, and he was releasing side programs and diet options every week in his newsletter. Honestly, I think he just has manic energy, OCD tendencies, and that he’s flying by the seat of his pants.
I mean, dude hired his mom as his customer service rep. He definitely doesn’t have an MBA.
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ledfistaco
Total Posts: 808
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03-24-21 09:37 AM - Post#909059
Also joined for the discount and have been starting from zero.
Backwards walking / dragging feels like a keeper for sure.
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DanMartin
Total Posts: 20705
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I figure whatever he has his Mom doing will be good enough for me.
As I posted earlier, I'm just going to do split squats, standing tib raise and backwards walking in the near term. Probably around May 1st or more likely June 1st, I'll get all dense.
Have a slant board ready to go, the Tib raise bar is en route from Australia and Rogue says they will build me a Nordic bench.
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Old Miler
Total Posts: 1744
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I figure whatever he has his Mom doing will be good enough for me.
Like being the other Dan's customer support person? ;-)
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Old Miler
Total Posts: 1744
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Have a slant board ready to go, the Tib raise bar is en route from Australia and Rogue says they will build me a Nordic bench.
I was looking at Nordic/GHR benches. But then last night I found that if I lie down on my front with a towel wrapped around my feet and stick them under my deadlift bar, it works perfectly. The only "trick" was to stick some small wedges in front of the plates so I cannot roll it forward.
To be fair I think this is an exercise most people don't need to do, unless they plan on all-out sprinting, or they get as strong as Ben Patrick in the videos and turn it into a concentric lift-back-up exercise. On the other hand, I do plan on a pale old-geezer imitation of sprinting this summer and don't want injuries, so I'll be doing a few this quarter. And to get quads used to eccentrics, a few downhill running strides once a week.
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Ricky01
Total Posts: 709
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03-25-21 06:13 PM - Post#909124
Backwards walk/running is amazing. There was a theory being passed about that Rugby League players have fewer hammie injuries b/c the amount of backwards running they do.
Everytime there is a tackle, they have to retreat 10m and the majority of them will do this by going backwards - don't turn your back on your opponent.
Richard
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ledfistaco
Total Posts: 808
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03-29-21 01:46 PM - Post#909220
Ricky01 I think you're right.
Dragging a kb backwards in my yard is a really healthful feeling tough workout.
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padddleperson
Total Posts: 57
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03-29-21 05:29 PM - Post#909228
I felt like all my knee problems went away in my thirties when i was playing pick up basketball and started to run backwards a lot of the time. I also got really, really fast running backwards which was kind of fun...if not very practical:)
Kind of related, i used to roll my ankles a lot and and injure them. I took up trail running and my ankles got super strong and even when i would roll them they wouldn't get injured anymore. that was awesome!
Ps...all of that is in the past though and i could use some backward something and ankle strengthening something again...hence my keen interest in this thread
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Andy Mitchell
Total Posts: 5269
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When you walk backwards your quads are contracted under load.
It’s like a leg extension, most failed to understand that the most important part of that movement (and safest) is the full load at contraction.
A good leg extension has the back rest angled back so that the is no interference from the hamstring.
I’ve fixed a lot of knees with and quite quickly
Nice legs-shame about the face
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Edited by Andy Mitchell on 03-29-21 11:13 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Neander
Total Posts: 7755
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Ain't it fascinating what people in the training game will gladly pay for!
Almost as fascinating as what they refuse to pay for.
Ladies and gentlemen!
This month's go-to fad training notion is . . .
Life's too short to worry about longevity.
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Edited by Neander on 03-30-21 05:10 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Ricky01
Total Posts: 709
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When you walk backwards your quads are contracted under load.
It’s like a leg extension, most failed to understand that the most important part of that movement (and safest) is the full load at contraction.
A good leg extension has the back rest angled back so that the is no interference from the hamstring.
I’ve fixed a lot of knees with and quite quickly
Great insight.
I also think that the load placed on the hammies at near full extension (their weakest position) is amazingly potent.
Richard
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DanMartin
Total Posts: 20705
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When you walk backwards your quads are contracted under load.
It’s like a leg extension, most failed to understand that the most important part of that movement (and safest) is the full load at contraction.
A good leg extension has the back rest angled back so that the is no interference from the hamstring.
I’ve fixed a lot of knees with and quite quickly
In Bill Starr's "The Strongest Shall Survive" the leg curl and leg extension are two key movements and are generally performed every workout for two or three high rep sets.
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D Berta
Total Posts: 141
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I did a lot of leg extension in my youth and never had the knee problems I saw a lot of people get. I have also used leg extension a couple of times as an adult to rehab kneecap/quad tendon type pain. I work out at home now and the exercises he recommends have worked surprisingly well in doing what my knees need. I probably could have stumbled on this on my own, but haven't, yay me! If a month's subscription shows me on how to get a leg extension effect without a leg extension machine and treat my knees better, it's worth it even if it is a fad.
My dad snapped both quad tendons in his 40's and 50's. I do not know for sure if that's a him thing, a genetic thing, or some combination. Anyway, I am not interested in that for sure!
Edited by D Berta on 03-30-21 09:40 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Ricky01
Total Posts: 709
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I did a lot of leg extension in my youth and never had the knee problems I saw a lot of people get. I have also used leg extension a couple of times as an adult to rehab kneecap/quad tendon type pain. I work out at home now and the exercises he recommends have worked surprisingly well in doing what my knees need. I probably could have stumbled on this on my own, but haven't, yay me! If a month's subscription shows me on how to get a leg extension effect without a leg extension machine and treat my knees better, it's worth it even if it is a fad.
My dad snapped both quad tendons in his 40's and 50's. I do not know for sure if that's a him thing, a genetic thing, or some combination. Anyway, I am not interested in that for sure!
The leg extension is really good at training the finish of the knee extension and hitting the vastus medialis. Something cyclists usually have greatly developed.
Not knowing what his programme fully entails - is there much programming/volume (etc) of the way of reverse nordic curls?
Richard
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Jordan D
Total Posts: 771
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My dad snapped both quad tendons in his 40's and 50's.
Oh man. That hurts just to read.
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Mark Fenner
Total Posts: 60
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My bookshelf is littered with so many bad training books, that I will rarely buy print stuff now (excepting my entire library of the Collected Works of Dan John which live happily on my nightstand bookshelf). You can imagine my feeling about subscriptions to access content (as opposed to an ongoing provision of service).
Thankfully, YouTube is wonderful: both for content creators and added commentary. In that later boat, I found this that seems to be a nice review and summary of the "kneeovertoes guy" method:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV4cJCJH35s
[Edit: after watching the whole thing, it is less of a summary, but provides great commentary and context.]
Best,
Mark
Edited by Mark Fenner on 03-30-21 10:41 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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jamej
Total Posts: 510
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03-30-21 11:05 AM - Post#909262
I walk about 1.25 miles backward most days. The area I walk has gentle hills. When I go down hill the top of my calves are emphasized when I go up hill the front of my legs just above the knee are emphasized. It seems so well balanced and it certainly is helping my one hurt knee. Ben's stuff really is good for my problem knee.
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Ricky01
Total Posts: 709
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03-30-21 03:38 PM - Post#909273
I walk about 1.25 miles backward most days. The area I walk has gentle hills. When I go down hill the top of my calves are emphasized when I go up hill the front of my legs just above the knee are emphasized. It seems so well balanced and it certainly is helping my one hurt knee. Ben's stuff really is good for my problem knee.
I love that you walk that far backwards each day.
Richard
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Andy Mitchell
Total Posts: 5269
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When you walk backwards your quads are contracted under load.
It’s like a leg extension, most failed to understand that the most important part of that movement (and safest) is the full load at contraction.
A good leg extension has the back rest angled back so that the is no interference from the hamstring.
I’ve fixed a lot of knees with and quite quickly
In Bill Starr's "The Strongest Shall Survive" the leg curl and leg extension are two key movements and are generally performed every workout for two or three high rep sets.
Machines are fine but their only justification is doing things you can’t do with conventional equipment or greatly improving safety.
Nice legs-shame about the face
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Edited by Andy Mitchell on 03-30-21 06:30 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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DanMartin
Total Posts: 20705
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When you walk backwards your quads are contracted under load.
It’s like a leg extension, most failed to understand that the most important part of that movement (and safest) is the full load at contraction.
A good leg extension has the back rest angled back so that the is no interference from the hamstring.
I’ve fixed a lot of knees with and quite quickly
In Bill Starr's "The Strongest Shall Survive" the leg curl and leg extension are two key movements and are generally performed every workout for two or three high rep sets.
Machines are fine but their only justification is doing things you can’t do with conventional equipment or greatly improving safety.
I like machines. If I could do a machine only routine it wouldn't bother me in the least. That said, I would still do Farmer's walk.
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Andy Mitchell
Total Posts: 5269
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When you walk backwards your quads are contracted under load.
It’s like a leg extension, most failed to understand that the most important part of that movement (and safest) is the full load at contraction.
A good leg extension has the back rest angled back so that the is no interference from the hamstring.
I’ve fixed a lot of knees with and quite quickly
In Bill Starr's "The Strongest Shall Survive" the leg curl and leg extension are two key movements and are generally performed every workout for two or three high rep sets.
Machines are fine but their only justification is doing things you can’t do with conventional equipment or greatly improving safety.
I like machines. If I could do a machine only routine it wouldn't bother me in the least. That said, I would still do Farmer's walk.
Yeah
There’s not much I don’t like in terms of exercises (equipment)
Like you’ve said; a poor tradesman person blames their tool.
One machine I’m not enamoured with is the seated row OT a bit
Nice legs-shame about the face
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Andy Mitchell
Total Posts: 5269
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03-30-21 08:50 PM - Post#909282
One tricky little exercise for the shin is standing on a block (heels) not toes and raising the toes towards the the knee (trying to touch them) then down to a full stretch.
You’ll need a bit of extra weight coz the levers (as with calf raises) are too good.
Nice legs-shame about the face
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ihavearedhoody
Total Posts: 13
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03-30-21 10:49 PM - Post#909283
FWIW, I decided to try the subscription last week. I paid about 25 bucks for a one month subscription. They have a discount code yoy can find on youtube. You have access to 4 12-week ´´Do this’´ programs that have upper and lower body exercises and build on one another, a program for teenagers, an ankle rehab program, and additional stuff I’m forgetting. In each program, You have specific exercises and stretches, sets, reps, standards to attain before progressing.
I had many knee and ankle injuries (soccer, football, karate, slipping on ice hiking).For that price... I find it’s worth a try.
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ledfistaco
Total Posts: 808
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03-31-21 11:44 AM - Post#909300
You get feedback if you send in videos. That's a nice value for the subscription.
To add to the chorus of backwards love, I have been traveling and haven't had much space. So I skipped the backwards walk warmup and one of my knees did not like the rest of the work.
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Chris Rice
Total Posts: 702
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Yesterday before track practice started I walked a lap backwards around the track - dang it seemed like a long way!
Edited by Chris Rice on 03-31-21 11:51 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Steve Rogers
Total Posts: 6158
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03-31-21 04:36 PM - Post#909314
You get feedback if you send in videos. That's a nice value for the subscription.
To add to the chorus of backwards love, I have been traveling and haven't had much space. So I skipped the backwards walk warmup and one of my knees did not like the rest of the work.
The backward walk/drag may be the most important part of the workout.
| "Coyote is always waiting, and Coyote is always hungry." |
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Mark Fenner
Total Posts: 60
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03-31-21 10:58 PM - Post#909327
Thinking about this thread made me think about split-style receiving of the Olympic lifts. Some authors (maybe Tommy Kono?) also proposed that they might have been better for general athletics compared to squat-style.
I remembered an old(er)-time photo and I thought it was Bednarski, but it may have been Schemansky (maybe in Dreschler's book?). Anyway, I found this one of Schemansky and it certainly has the ATG/knees-over style lunge. As Dan said, what's old is new.
https://liftingtimes.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/201 7/04/Figure-1.png
Best,
Mark
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Jordan D
Total Posts: 771
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04-01-21 12:20 PM - Post#909341
Is he wearing a flat-soled shoe in that photo?
If so, that blows me away.
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Old Miler
Total Posts: 1744
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To be fair Ben Patrick (#kneesovertoesguy) did point out that the hangup about not letting knees go forwards over the toes is a recent phenomenon...
Edited by Old Miler on 04-01-21 03:44 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Jordan D
Total Posts: 771
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Steve Rogers
Total Posts: 6158
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The Duke study was done on powerlifters and the rules of that game don't require knees over toes so they generally don't train it. One of Patrick's arguments is that KOT training strengthens tendons and ligaments which takes longer than strengthening muscle. If he's correct, this kind of training could be beneficial even for powerlifters, at least in the off season. I also remember Patric attributing some of his ideas to Poliquin. Too bad he hasn't consolidated this into a book. Its a bit fragmentary.
| "Coyote is always waiting, and Coyote is always hungry." |
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Jordan Derksen
Total Posts: 392
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04-01-21 07:54 PM - Post#909350
Wasn’t it pretty much crossfit and those affiliated with it that started the knees over toes insanity?
The Kstar mobility wod squat always looked... well honestly it always looked pretty stupid to me. The feet forward knees WAY out sit back thing, I dunno. I gave it the ol try way back when and felt like nothing was meant to move that way. But I have a very narrow squat stance, similar to klokov, so genetically I just can’t squat that way even if I wanted to.
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AusDaz
Total Posts: 3611
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04-02-21 01:52 AM - Post#909354
The Kstar mobility wod squat always looked... well honestly it always looked pretty stupid to me. The feet forward knees WAY out sit back thing, I dunno.
I wondered if some of that KStar CrossFit style set up revolves around the need to get into position very quickly after you’ve finished a run or something. So they use one generic set up across multiple exercises and make everything fit into it.
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ledfistaco
Total Posts: 808
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04-02-21 09:23 AM - Post#909363
You get feedback if you send in videos. That's a nice value for the subscription.
To add to the chorus of backwards love, I have been traveling and haven't had much space. So I skipped the backwards walk warmup and one of my knees did not like the rest of the work.
The backward walk/drag may be the most important part of the workout.
Yes, even a tiny bit of this in my current cramped quarters makes the rest of the workout much better feeling.
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DanMartin
Total Posts: 20705
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04-02-21 11:29 AM - Post#909365
I have been following Ben's work for sometime now. The age of Covid lends itself to a lot of deep diving on the KOT YouTube.
All of the information concerning the three levels of performance are there. You have to sort through a lot of videos, but, I repeat, it is all there.
The difference between just looking at the video's and actually subscribing is coaching and feedback, which is a huge difference.
All of that to say this, the "Big 3" of KOT is:
The Tibialis raise, the ATG split squat and walking backwards.
Just like the DMPM, you can go a long time mining the gold from those three aforementioned movements.
How would I program those three movements? The backwards walking is a good way to start your "warm-ups" then move towards a few split squats and finish with the leaning against a wall tibialis raise.
Like anything physical, there are no short cuts and there is a certain amount of time needed to see tangible results. YMMV
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Jordan D
Total Posts: 771
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04-02-21 01:02 PM - Post#909368
I have been following Ben's work for sometime now. The age of Covid lends itself to a lot of deep diving on the KOT YouTube.
All of the information concerning the three levels of performance are there. You have to sort through a lot of videos, but, I repeat, it is all there.
The difference between just looking at the video's and actually subscribing is coaching and feedback, which is a huge difference.
All of that to say this, the "Big 3" of KOT is:
The Tibialis raise, the ATG split squat and walking backwards.
Just like the DMPM, you can go a long time mining the gold from those three aforementioned movements.
How would I program those three movements? The backwards walking is a good way to start your "warm-ups" then move towards a few split squats and finish with the leaning against a wall tibialis raise.
Like anything physical, there are no short cuts and there is a certain amount of time needed to see tangible results. YMMV
Best explanation I've seen yet.
This is essentially what I've done since last July. Paid for the programs. Did the basic one. Took the really relevant stuff (all 3 movements Dan described) and made them a permanent part of my warmups and traditional weight training. Hasn't stopped paying dividends yet.
I imagine at some point Patrick will release this as a methodology outside his sequential program system - how to integrate KOT movements into training for other sports and weightlifting methods.
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Brian Hassler
Total Posts: 616
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04-02-21 03:00 PM - Post#909371
A lot of this thread reads like what Dan John talks about with people who ask if they can do the One Lift A Day program but add bench press on Tuesdays and Thursdays and bicep curls on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. Yes, you can, but that's not the One Lift A Day program.
Or like all the people who "improve" the 10,000 swings challenge without ever having done 10,000 swings-- ever.
All of which is to say that Dan Martin and Jordan D are undoubtedly correct in the sense of picking out the key elements of the program, but if you have knee problems and want to see if the KOT program might help you, you should really do the program as written. It's built as a system, and for those of us with damaged knees, the slow, detailed progressions are really important.
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Old Miler
Total Posts: 1744
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04-02-21 03:18 PM - Post#909372
My knees aren't damaged. (At least, not in a way this can fix - I have an extra mini-patella under my left one from my repeated strains in my youth, which makes kneeling painful, but joint surfaces are perfect apparently and I assume my cartilage tear 30 years back has grown back). I find the tibialis and calf stuff pretty easy to be honest.
But I am finding a "do this" programme very good for my hip mobility. Spending the time he says working on hip flexor strength and stretching, and piriformis stretches, is loosening me up. I've been guilty for decades of doing 2x10seconds stretching when the physios say "2 minutes".
As a "total program" I'm finding it doesn't challenge my posterior chain (yet), so I am wondering if I can do my usual Easy Strength (pullups, press, deadlifts) on the days in between. Or if some sprinting and hills is ample, since I am doing that anyway...
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DanMartin
Total Posts: 20705
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A lot of this thread reads like what Dan John talks about with people who ask if they can do the One Lift A Day program but add bench press on Tuesdays and Thursdays and bicep curls on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. Yes, you can, but that's not the One Lift A Day program.
Or like all the people who "improve" the 10,000 swings challenge without ever having done 10,000 swings-- ever.
All of which is to say that Dan Martin and Jordan D are undoubtedly correct in the sense of picking out the key elements of the program, but if you have knee problems and want to see if the KOT program might help you, you should really do the program as written. It's built as a system, and for those of us with damaged knees, the slow, detailed progressions are really important.
I didn't cherry pick those three exercises, I took them from one of his You Tube videos. Patrick said that those three were the "money" exercises and if you did just those three you would be good to go.
However, I agree that if the trainee has some underlying issues, the Total Program is where it's at.
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Andy Mitchell
Total Posts: 5269
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04-02-21 06:39 PM - Post#909376
I’m really enjoying his videos
Nice legs-shame about the face
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DanMartin
Total Posts: 20705
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04-02-21 11:53 PM - Post#909380
And for the sake of clarity, I'm following Patrick's mom's routine, since she and I are the same age. Sixtyfinseven.
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Chris Rice
Total Posts: 702
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04-03-21 12:08 AM - Post#909382
I have not signed up but put together Backwards walking with the 10 exercises on the videos. I'm going "extremely" easy on the range of motion stuff but doing some work on things like tibs - hip flexors - one leg calf raises - etc. that are just muscular. Every other or every third day seems to work out well for me so far. Still doing some weights and aerobics also. It's only been a couple weeks but feeling good so far
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Andy Mitchell
Total Posts: 5269
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04-03-21 07:34 AM - Post#909385
Lol
Nice legs-shame about the face
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Roger Clarvin
Total Posts: 72
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04-03-21 08:38 PM - Post#909397
Jordan D, this guy should be giving you a referral fee. I signed up because of the scuttlebutt here and because even in my thirties I find this sort of pitch hard to resist--WORLD CLASS ATHLETICISM! One week into Knee Zero. Feels good and fun to do something different. Haven't done any dedicated work from the knees down basically ever.
What I've been wondering about with this stuff is what is the end game, what do you keep for life and what do you leave behind, where is the pareto spot, where is the point of diminishing marginal returns.
Can you get most of the benefit by, as Jordan and Dan Martin suggest, doing it as a focus for a little while and then grabbing the "big three" and incorporating them into whatever normal training is for you? I mean are people here really going to be doing these wild ass barbell squats on a slant board, Jefferson curls, and "nordics" forevermore? How deep?! is what I'm asking my DJQA/KOT Krew.
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Jordan D
Total Posts: 771
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04-04-21 08:48 AM - Post#909411
Jordan D, this guy should be giving you a referral fee.
Haha. Oh, I’ll get loud about things that work. Probably to my own disrepute.
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