03-14-21 11:59 PM - Post#908834    

I was wondering if any of you have an opinion of the kneesovertoesguy who publishes on YouTube. I just came across his videos a few days ago. Interesting stuff. I may try some of his routines and see what happens. I'd like to know if anyone else has tried it and what kind of results they got.

"Everybody pities the weak; jealousy you have to earn." - Arnold

03-15-21 12:02 AM - Post#908835    

Same here, just stumbled onto his stuff while researching on how to fix my runner's knee.

May start trying some of his stuff this week.

03-15-21 07:54 AM - Post#908839    

Been doing his intro stuff for a while. I really like his approach. However, you must go slow. If you progress too fast, and it is easy to do, you're likely to get hurt. Ligaments and tendons change very slowly relative to muscle. Do exactly as he says, be very detailed, again - go slow. It will work as advertised. My results are terrific.
I'm in my mid sixties and over weight just so you can put my experience into some kind of context.

03-15-21 09:28 AM - Post#908842    

I mentioned him on a post a few months ago; talking about ankle and knee mobility.

Absolute game changer of all game changers. The guy has changed my life. I’m pushing 40 and my body shouldn’t be able to work this way.

In terms of physical training, Dan John, Pavel, Rippetoe, and this guy...those are the only thinkers/coaches who’ve truly made a lasting impact on my life in the last 25 years.

03-15-21 09:31 AM - Post#908843    

• Jordan D Said:

Even more than Tim Anderson?

"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums. It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable. Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow. Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't." Dan Martin

03-15-21 09:42 AM - Post#908844    

I just started watching his videos a few minutes ago. VERY interesting stuff. I think caution might be a good idea for we old farts but some very good stuff here.

03-15-21 10:25 AM - Post#908846    

• Jordan D Said:

Jordan, how is the knee?


I have found the long hold isometrics with ISO lunge and standing balance holds to be amazing for knees.

Richard

03-15-21 10:26 AM - Post#908847    

I think he's on to it. I'm doing split squats as a warm-up.

Mark it Zero.

03-15-21 12:03 PM - Post#908849    

I'm interested as my knees are bad. He has a lot of videos. Any suggestions as to what to watch? or does anybody do his paid program? Thanks

03-15-21 12:39 PM - Post#908850    

• iPood Said:

Good point. Throw Tim in that list too. Or sub him in for Pavel.

• Ricky01 Said:

Best they've been since I was 16. Pain from old sports and pistol-squat injuries has disappeared.

• DanMartin Said:

Exactly what I do now. Went through the Zero program (very patiently), made them my only squat/deadlift supplemental exercise for a few months, and now do the split squats in all my warmups and often on off days. The new ankle flexibility and hip integrity has done amazing things for my back squats.

03-15-21 01:51 PM - Post#908852    

I'm doing the split squat, walking backwards and the standing tib raise most all the time. I'm in the middle of a routine and I'm not interested (well I'm actually very interested) in a wholesale change mid-cycle.

My plan is to go all in this May. I ordered a tib raise thing and I have a slant board already.

Mark it Zero.

03-15-21 02:37 PM - Post#908853    

They key for me was getting my hamstrings to work properly as knee extension muscles. He seems to start further along than what I could have handled when my knees were at their worst, but maybe the full program is different.

03-15-21 09:59 PM - Post#908858    

Plus one for the program.

I'm 11 weeks into Zero, and I'm happy with my progress.

In my case, I didn't have specific knee issues (although I'm 47 and I play BJJ 2-3 times a week, so I'm keen to keep it that way), but I did have a back and hip stiffness which it's helped with a lot. My back and hips haven't been this happy in years.

The time commitment is reasonable, and the workouts don't trash you (if you accept a reasonable level of regression). You get a video form check with every workout, so you don't feel like your money is just disappearing into space.

I'm a bit concerned about when I graduate from Zero, just because it requires gear I don't have, and I'd rather stay out of a commercial gym, but I'm in the process of moving house, so buying the gear is a problem.

03-16-21 09:39 AM - Post#908866    

• Brian Hassler Said:

Everyone starts with tibialis raises, regressed so much that even inactive elderly and post-knee-surgery patients can do them. No progression until you hit certain standards, no reps ever completed if they cause pain.

Check this video of world Muay Thai champ Miriam Nakamoto’s results, seven years after knee surgery:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CJ84dudJHXM/?igshid =dohf3lnog6jw

The kneesovertoesguy
03-16-21 01:16 PM - Post#908870    

Thanks, Jordan!

He's got a lot of videos and I missed the one on the tibialis raise.

How long have you been doing the program? In one of his videos, he says the first 12 weeks are spent building the ability to do palms on the floor with a straight leg and a full range split squat. If I knew I could get to those in a year I'd think it was fantastic-- 12 weeks would be a dang miracle.

Edited by Brian Hassler on 03-16-21 01:16 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

03-17-21 08:24 AM - Post#908888    

No sweat!

I did the Zero program last year, as a supplement to my normal lifting routine. Ever since, the ATG split squats have been in my warmups and I do the stretching on my off days. I don’t know about 12 weeks (I took it slow and easy), but after 8 months or so now, yeah, palms on the floor (cold in the morning) and I can do splits for the first time in my life.

The split squats are, bar none, far and away, the only hip flexor stretch worth doing. Huge, huge eye opener.

03-17-21 10:31 AM - Post#908891    

• Jordan D Said:

Excellent. I signed up last night, and will do my first workout in the Zero program today.

I watched all the instructional videos last night, and I really appreciate how the program is built-- it's basically starting with an extreme sissy squat and regressing it all the way to a tibialis raise, and then building from there. I also like that the program is really boring. Just 10 or so exercises done at the appropriate difficulty level, forever. Makes it easy to integrate into everything else.

03-17-21 03:30 PM - Post#908899    

I signed up last night too. Regaining some spring and avoiding lower leg injuries will be key for me this summer.


How long does it take to do a full session with all of his exercises? 30-45min? I'll probably start after the weekend, as I set myself some other challenges this week that are going to be quite taxing.

03-17-21 05:15 PM - Post#908903    

Please post a link to the program you are referring to or give the search name. I found several different programs with a Zero Program search.

03-17-21 05:22 PM - Post#908904    

• Vicki Said:

This should do the trick:
https://www.atgonlinecoaching.com/

Knee Ability Zero is the beginner program, and they scale up from there.

03-17-21 06:22 PM - Post#908906    

$50 a month? DJU is like less than ten.

I have to rethink things.

Daniel John Just handing down what I was handed down... Make a Difference. Live. Love. Laugh. Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude) Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk. Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth. Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights. Reread great books. Say thank you

03-17-21 07:06 PM - Post#908911    

• Dan John Said:

It is a lot. You need to pay it to get the full program details and videos, but I can't see me keeping it up beyond the first couple of months. It's basically 10 exercises, 3x per week, and you keep doing them indefinitely. I would prefer a fixed price for a book or video course, personally.

On the other hand, how many subscribers do you have compared to him, and what % are quitting each month? The cost of developing and running a platform is only loosely related to the number of subscribers, and if you get 10x more users at $10 than you would at $50, you win. You also help more people. DJU has vastly more content, and real reasons to stay a member like the workout generator.

03-17-21 07:26 PM - Post#908912    

They have 18 people on staff and, according to the website, review over 16,000 member videos a week. So there's that.

From my perspective, I'm 47 now and if my knees improve to where I can do things at 50 that I thought were gone forever by 40 due to injuries (like a full squat), then it's worth it at a much higher price than what he's asking.

Also, he gives links to each of his programs written out in pdf files (Old Miler, you could just download the pdf). His video instructions are unlisted videos on youtube. All of which means that I, as a moderately skilled internet user, could steal pretty much the entire site in about an hour. So it's not like he's hiding anything.

One thing folks around here might appreciate is that anyone who shows up at his home studio is welcome to train with him for free. He only charges for his online program, never for in person training. Anyone who lets folks just show up and train at their house can't be all bad, right? I don't know of many people who do that, but all of them are handsome and erudite.

And yes, Dan John is ridiculously underpriced.

03-17-21 07:41 PM - Post#908913    

There's a lot on these You Tube videos I find interesting and am going to try and incorporate into my program. I won't buy a monthly subscription type program (this or any other)- I would buy a book or entire program if I could purchase it all at once.

03-17-21 08:08 PM - Post#908916    

• Dan John Said:

After reading this comment I quit everything I was doing and went straight to DJU to sign up. I paid $15 a month for the retooled crossfit football program rather unfortunately renamed johnnie wod. It was actually really fun, but dang if didn't almost kill me while I was in college with a wife and young kid.

Just checked though... DJU is $29 per month. Worth it I'm sure. But it's more than 10. Am I missing something?

03-18-21 09:26 AM - Post#908925    

I originally signed up because the guy said in one video: “Even if you don’t want daily coaching and just want to download all the programs, go for it, here’s $20 off.” 4 sequential programs at the time. $30 (still available with the covid discount).

I think Dan and he should work together. Nobody else goodnaturedly produces so much free content, and let me tell you, the synthesis of Easy Strength philosophy and those exercises has just been too successful for me this year.

03-18-21 10:33 AM - Post#908929    

Thanks for bringing this guy up.
If you can join and leave and still get what you need, that sounds useful.
I have compromised ankle mobility in one foot that causes me problems b/c it produces asymmetrical ranges of motion when I squat. I'm curious to see if I can balance out my ROM but honestly the jump gains he talks about are a real appeal, too.

Less Hercules, more Achilles.

03-18-21 06:56 PM - Post#908934    

If you try a Mike Mentzer routine where you lift to failure every 10 days or so, or a Steve Justa singles-every-day routine, they might not work for you. The only cost I can see is a little time. I’m not confident I can say that about what I’ve seen in some of the kneesovertoes guy’s videos. Should an average person’s knees have the range of motion he demonstrates in that lunge of his? Add in some bouncing in an extreme position, and it looks like it would be easy to cause or exacerbate ankle or knee problems. Just wondering if I was the only one thinking this?

03-19-21 09:34 AM - Post#908943    

I've had a suspect knee since high school when I grew 7" in one year while trying to run cross country & track. Injured one of my knees a few months ago and it went full blown injured last month. Think I did too many hiking and trail running miles up and down steep hills while wearing shorts in cold weather.

Results seem promising so far, hobbled together a routine from watching the YouTube videos and my knee feels a lot more solid and less painful in a week's time.

03-19-21 01:34 PM - Post#908948    

Toes over knees is rough 'cause of the way they only bend the one way.
I have exercises, painful exercises that can fix that.

Life's too short to worry about longevity.

03-19-21 05:25 PM - Post#908951    

• Upwind Said:

According to him, yes. That's kind of the whole point. The program is predicated around building to that safely. I guess I'll let you know in 12 weeks whether I think it works, or not...

03-19-21 06:26 PM - Post#908952    

The tib thing used to be called a DARD I think. I dug mine out and started using it yesterday. I have the steel cut to make a Nordic Bar for my Power Rack with some gymnastic mats for padding - should be welded up in a couple days - have been doing Glute Hams raises for quite a while - we'll see what kind of carry over I get. At 72 my joints are fairly stiff so I'm going to do everything but not push into anything as to range of motion - I feel comfortable pushing the muscular stuff a little. We'll see in a month or 3 what kind of changes I have.

The kneesovertoesguy
03-19-21 11:37 PM - Post#908954    

Maybe all those Indian wrestlers and old time strong men were onto something with squatting on their toes (in addition to saucy mustaches!).

Edited by AusDaz on 03-19-21 11:37 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

03-20-21 12:34 AM - Post#908955    

I am 6 foot with long legs and little feet.
My knees go past my feet on a half squat

03-20-21 10:43 AM - Post#908957    

Squatting on toes.

This is what we used to do. Remember, you can't really load up this exercise excessively. (Note: yes, an idiot can prove me wrong...3-2-1 Go!).

This is what Callum and most of the early books I read recommended. I used to do these just like I saw in the book, bodybuilding and self-defense, and the soreness was real.

Everything old is new again.

Can someone give me the 25cent tour of why I should get into this?

Daniel John Just handing down what I was handed down... Make a Difference. Live. Love. Laugh. Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude) Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk. Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth. Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights. Reread great books. Say thank you

03-20-21 11:07 AM - Post#908958    

Dan - I'm not sure that everyone "should" get into this at all. Those of us with those issues addressed by this group of movements might find value here though - about like any exercises. I for example have found tib strength and stretching to be needed - and my quads certainly need stretched (and stronger in that stretched position). I've been doing the piriformis stretch already and the slant board adds just a little different twist on things. One legged calf raises have always been good and not a new thing. The Nordic hamstring is certainly harder than Glute Hams. Overall I like putting it all into a warmup style program at this point - with the goal of reaching the standards muscle wise - but I have no intention of pushing my joint mobility very quickly. So I guess it depends on what you do currently and what you might want to address in regards to it. Can you get much of this via other means - yes.

03-20-21 11:25 AM - Post#908959    

• Dan John Said:

I've been researching this since seeing the thread and it seems to be quite effective for improving resiliency and athleticism. However, I think your Easy Strength Olympic Lifting program covers pretty much everything this does, especially if you're considering an Olympic meet in the future. Question for me would be does it make since for a 70 year old to try to learn the Olympic lifts?

"Coyote is always waiting, and Coyote is always hungry."

03-20-21 11:50 AM - Post#908960    

• Dan John Said:

I believe that KOT (knees over toes) is to the knee joint complex what the swing is to the hinge.

His personal journey is interesting to be sure, but I'm not looking to dunk anytime soon. However, what his Mom is doing is more applicable to me.

My take away is this: Walking backwards (unloaded or loaded) along with the tibialis raise and the split squat are the foundational movements. If you want to get fancy, throw in the reverse stair step regressions.

So how have I incorporated all of this? For the split squat I just take the Stoney Stretch into parts unknown. I hold the bottom position and extend my knee over my toes of the lead leg and really flex the ankle of the back leg. After that I do the standing tibialis raise. I do some backwards walking as a cool-down. My neighbors have given up trying to figure out what I do anymore, so a few laps around my court is a decent finisher.

Eventually my plan is to use the slant board for squats and to get one of the tibialis raise devices.

To piggy-back on what Dan say's about what was once old is new again, incline board squats were suggested as a supplemental lift for powerlifters. Specifically to work the same area for the same reason...the VMO. (Granted, the suggestion was in the early 70's. But, like so many things, it got lost along the way. What was the real motivator for the incline squat was that it worked the VMO similar to the front squat but did not require the same degree of wrist and shoulder flexibility.)

As an aside, if you do some deep drilling on his YouTube videos there is one where he talks about total knee replacements that's rather sobering.

Mark it Zero.

03-20-21 12:50 PM - Post#908961    

Thank you all. I am getting ready to lift in an O meet again (May 15) and I am looking on the other side to see what I might play around with next. I will say this: of all the programs I have done ES4FatLoss with O lifting is like magic.

Daniel John Just handing down what I was handed down... Make a Difference. Live. Love. Laugh. Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude) Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk. Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth. Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights. Reread great books. Say thank you

03-20-21 01:14 PM - Post#908962    

To me the value is in the way it all fits together as a system. Taking it piecemeal might provide some neat exercises, but I think it's everything combined in the right progression that makes the magic happen.

03-20-21 03:24 PM - Post#908963    

• Brian Hassler Said:

I'd buy the program if available in it's entirety in one lump but monthly subscriptions simply don't work for me.

03-20-21 04:19 PM - Post#908964    

• Dan John Said:

Good luck for your O meet. As something to play around with after your meet, I think this has merit. I've added some backward walking to my training and may switch my squats to the split style and add the tibialis raise. After the TSC on 8 May I may try one of the KOT programs for a while.

"Coyote is always waiting, and Coyote is always hungry."

The kneesovertoesguy
03-20-21 05:30 PM - Post#908966    

My broad impression, after 3-4 days playing around and watching and practicing his vids, is that the thesis boils down to this:

If you use all the muscles in your legs and hips, with gradually increasing ROM, for 3 months, then good stuff happens.

It also doesn't seem to conflict much with what most people do in the gym. It does a bit with my running hobby - my lower legs are a bit overloaded right now - but I read the program and just knew right away that this was stuff I should have been paying attention to for the last few decades but haven't.






Edited by Old Miler on 03-20-21 06:06 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

Re: The kneesovertoesguy
03-20-21 07:48 PM - Post#908968    

• Old Miler Said:

where did you find "the program" to read?

Re: The kneesovertoesguy
03-21-21 10:51 AM - Post#908977    

• Old Miler Said:

This is a very good description.

He’s basically taken all the mobility/end-range strength mumbo jumbo that’s come out in the last few years, and instead of applying it to yoga-like contortion tricks for already gifted people, he applied it to the basic function of the ankles, knees, and hips for regular people.

Mobility folks get obsessed with mobility. How mobile can we make people? Patrick got obsessed with joint integrity and making people pain free. Mobility and athleticism were nice (though integral) side effects of that.

I’ve done it for 8 months now. Like Original Strength, there are aspects I’ll never stop using.

Re: The kneesovertoesguy
03-21-21 03:26 PM - Post#908982    

• Chris Rice Said:

I signed up and paid. Then you get a link to a long HTML page explaining the ten or so exercises, and a video on each. He calls it the "Knee Ability Zero Picture Book". At the bottom he sums up the 10 exercises. It's a little unclear on programming - do you start with all 10, or master the first 3-4 before progressing? - but it's clear that you're supposed to do 3x per week (e.g. Mon/Wed/Fri).

Re: The kneesovertoesguy
03-23-21 12:06 PM - Post#909027    

Interesting interview on Mark Bells podcast/youtube podcast with knees guy

Some interesting points, tips and seems to give lots of stuff away and he doesnt really claim to invent anything either, he just made self discoveries and seems decent enough.

Podcast

Blog Somatic Education

Re: The kneesovertoesguy
03-23-21 12:14 PM - Post#909028    

• chrisl Said:

3 hours long but an easy listen - worthwhile.

Re: The kneesovertoesguy
03-23-21 12:32 PM - Post#909030    

Not much to add except to say I have bought one month at the discounted plan and will be following the Zero plan. My main sport is running.

Done two workouts so far. Initial impression is that the backwards walking might be the hidden star of the program. Backwards walking and the first 3 or 4 exercises of Zero feels like it might be the perfect combatant to shin splints in my high school girl runners.

vincit qui se vincit

03-23-21 05:14 PM - Post#909040    

I'm intrigued and have started to do a few of the basic exercises. I may sign up for a month to see if it is worth it.

I remember trying backwards running about 10 years ago. It was all going really well until I ran into a thorn bush and shredded my back. Hilarity ensued when I got home.

Training Blog.