12-01-20 07:28 PM - Post#905199    

With Covid one of my sons is pretty much locked into his apartment for training. He is considering trying Grivory Sport training because he has a pair of lighter weight Kettlebells available. Have we ever had a discussion of this here on the board? I know there is a ton of Kettlebell knowledge on here but can't remember anything about the "Sport' aspect being discussed. Any help appreciated.

12-01-20 08:40 PM - Post#905204    

I really like the long cycle - more with one kb than two.

For a great starting point, look at Scott Sonnon's article on the one arm LCCJ for fitness.

It is essentially the WKC (Valery Fedorenko) beginner protocol too, I believe. I have also seen Valery mention himself that for most people, single bell is better than two - at least to start - better for learning the technique and developing the flexibility etc

Actually it looks like the original article may be gone, but this sums it up

https://jdboelter.blogspot.com/2010/06/training-meth ods-scott-sonnon-on-oalc.html

Log

12-01-20 08:43 PM - Post#905205    

a direct post from Sonnon on another forum:

Scott Sonnon » Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:28 am

The progression is sequencial: meaning that as soon as you lock down one score, you can move to the next one on your next training day, and keep progressing until you can't complete the step. Stay with the incomplete step until you can complete it (takes about 2-3X to make a progression when you hit one, it seemed like to me and my guys, but I didn't isolate out any of our recovery methods.)

Eric Liford suggested that it was possible to train every day, but I think that suggestion came from the orientation of being a professional kettlebell lifter, rather than from being a fighter for which he suggested that we need to tailor it to meet our ability to recovery for rolling. S&C being supplemental only for fighters.

So, here's the progression:

Start at one arm LCCJ non-stop for 3 minutes with hand switches every 5 reps. Find your base RPM (usually around 8 reps when just beginning this sort of training.) Pace is important for progression so once you find your RPM stick with it.

When you can keep the same RPM for 3 minutes. Add one minute.

Here's where things pick up for awhile and you adapt to the technique. It looks like you develop fast, but I believe it's just your technique catching up to your conditioning as a fighter.

Keep adding one minute each session as long as you can keep the same RPM until you can get to 10 minutes.

At 10 minutes, drop down to 6 minutes, and add one RPM. Repeat the above: add one minute per session until you get to 10 minutes.

At 10 minutes, drop down to 6 minutes and add another RPM. Repeat the above until you're at 12RPMs for 10 minutes.

Then, drop down to 6 minutes and 8RPMs (or whatever your base pace was), then perform one hand switch every 10 reps rather than one switch every 5 reps. Work back up to 12RPMs for 10 minutes.

Here's where Eric suggested we move up in total duration, so we kept adding one minute per session as long as we could complete 12RPMs. And we worked up to 20 minutes.

Then, we dropped back down to 6 minutes and only performed one hand switch for 5 minutes, and then 5 minutes on the other hand - finding our base RPM.

We kept adding one RPM per session until we were up to 10RPMs for 20 minutes. (fixed/edited by Dave per Scott's post below)

Now, that wasn't constant. We did a lot of jumping around. And that was back when we were adding the 32kgs into the mix for over-compensation/over-lo ading. But it worked me up to 100 reps in 10 minutes of 1-arm LCCJ with the 32kgs and one hand switch. However, the 32kgs beat us up too much and we were getting slow and hurt, so we dropped down to the 24kgs again, and within two weeks we were back on velocity with no aches and pains.

Maybe it sounds complicated, but it's really pretty simple, and there's a lot of flexibility to it. Valery told me that there's no rule to this, only tinkering with how we're feeling that day... but to train as much as possible for only 10-20 minutes. Freaks like Marty did that several times a day, most days of the week. That would kill me because of how much we grapple, but I respect it fo sho.

Anyway, hope it helps. It did wonders for our guys.

Log

12-02-20 09:42 AM - Post#905212    

Thanks Luke -- interesting. The one-arm long cycle seems to have gained some popularity with fighters, and for sure is a great exercise. I have always liked this one when I am short on time and/or equipment (warning -- SF site): https://www.strongfirst.com/just-give-me-10-minut es-and-i-will-make-you-a- man-the-ultimate-kettlebe l...

I will concur with Sonnon that the 32k is more than most people need for this type of thing, unless you are at least two of the following three things:

1) extremely strong (if you are wondering whether you qualify, you probably don't)

2) under 30 years old

3) weigh more than 225 pounds

I have said before and will say again, long cycle is my "desert island" exercise -- it gives pretty much everything you could ask for from a weight exercise, except maybe max strength, but it'll get you more than strong enough for what most people would ever need. As for weight, I like two-kb weight for this that adds up to about 3/4 of bodyweight, so if you wanted to do one kb, it would be slightly more than 1/3, ideally.

Grivory Sport
12-02-20 02:25 PM - Post#905217    

I have an Irish friend I see on holiday most summers. He was into rugby for a decade, then running for another; then got injured for a couple of years. And then 2 years ago he turned up RIPPED, made all the teens on the beach look weedy - and he's 50-ish. He also kept up with me on a 5 mile mountain run without problems, despite only running 1-2x per week.

Turns out they have kettlebell clubs in Ireland, and they compete regularly and have championships, following the Girevoy Sport rules - lift as many as you can in 10 minutes. Long Cycle (clean and jerk) is the most popular.

I tried to discuss programming, but didn't get far; he and his wife basically go down to the club 2-3 nights a week, pick up a bell and do what the instructor says for an hour without overthinking it. And have fun with competitions and challenges from time to time.

Edited by Old Miler on 12-02-20 02:26 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

Re: Grivory Sport
12-02-20 05:27 PM - Post#905223    

• Old Miler Said:

Brilliant.

Mark it Zero.

12-02-20 07:12 PM - Post#905226    

Long Cycle is amazingly hard. That would make sense.

Thanks for sharing!

Daniel John Just handing down what I was handed down... Make a Difference. Live. Love. Laugh. Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude) Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk. Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth. Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights. Reread great books. Say thank you

Re: Grivory Sport
12-02-20 09:05 PM - Post#905232    

• Old Miler Said:

Now you have my interest. I've always thought that for the amount of effort put into it (and the training can be tough), the GS folks didn't have great physiques. Don't get me wrong - they look athletic and better than 99.9% of the population, and it goes without saying that they will have a tremendous work capacity, but some don't carry a lot of muscle.
[image]http://https://use rcontent.one/wp/www.truegritkettlebell.com/wp-content/uploads/20 16/05/received_1076728015 716748.jpeg[/image]

I thought it might be the emphasis on strength endurance first and strength second (no pun intended there.) Some of the beginner programs I looked into would have me clean and jerking 12kg bells so I could go the full 10 minutes without setting down the bells. That didn't appeal to me.

I came across something called StrongSport, which was single arm LCCJ w/40kg bell for 4 minutes (vice 10). I guess it never took off within GS federations. But I figure if you can rep the 40kg bell for 4 minutes, you are strong and fit. Alas, I'm not strong enough for the 40kg, yet, and may never be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJwP5EUjYKs

I'm currently doing escalating density training with the one arm LCCJ with 32kg plus goblet squat, for 30 minutes. It's pretty taxing. I'm going to deload in a week. If I start back after the deload, I'll have to check my ego. Trying to get more reps each session is making it a brutal workout. A Hard/Medium/Light sequence might be more appropriate than just going all out for 30 minutes three days a week.






Edited by Jim James on 12-02-20 09:20 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

Grivory Sport
12-05-20 09:37 PM - Post#905346    

I used to train and compete in it across multiple disciplines - biathlon, pentathlon, and half-marathon. I was in pretty good shape even at a low level.

Now that I'm back to my original sport of Brazilian jiu-jitsu, I don't really do timed sets anymore. Always felt burned out.

However, clean and jerk ladders, using the same technique and keeping the volume manageable, works wonders. Look up Joe Daniels, he does a lot of GS style lifting but not for timed sets and has great hypertrophy results.

Edited by mission.failed on 12-05-20 09:38 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

Re: Grivory Sport
12-06-20 08:14 AM - Post#905350    

In terms of the physique some people are mentioning between their Irish friend & GS competitors in general could that be an efficiency thing?

Maybe your Irish friend who sounds like they are doing it for fun/a little fitness is muscling it up compared to the others & unsurprisingly has seen a fair bit more hypertrophy.
Just a thought.

Re: Grivory Sport
12-06-20 04:23 PM - Post#905367    

• mission.failed Said:

I am familiar with Joe Daniels. He's the poster boy for kettlebell hypertrophy on Reddit, but he was a national level bodybuilder before shifting focus to wellness and kettlebells. Natty, supposedly. He's not nearly as lean now, of course,but he's kept his mass or even added to it with kettlebells. But I reckon a lot of his mass comes from his bodybuilding days.

Levi Markwadt is another trainer that uses GS/hybrid style of programming, and he's jacked. He was also big (300lbs?) before turning to KBs and cleaning up his diet and getting ripped. So I don't know what to think.



Edited by Jim James on 12-06-20 04:24 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

12-07-20 12:19 AM - Post#905374    

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJwP5EUjYKs
This was posted by Jim James above - StrongSport KB lifting - I'd be very happy to be built like either of these guys. Now do they look like this because of "just" this training or because of other things they may have done over the years? At my age I wouldn't expect to change the way I look much at all - but those two are exhibiting some serious strength endurance I wouldn't mind having - and my son who asked the question to me probably wouldn't mind either. And with just a couple KBs one could do a lot along with a little BW stuff.

12-07-20 12:54 AM - Post#905376    

Denis looks even more ridiculous now. But he does a lot... a LOT... of long cycle volume with 2x32kg, and his assistance lifts are crazy stuff like 100s of reps of jump squats, close grip bench press, dips, etc.

• Jim James Said:

High volume with both double bells and heavy single bells. Not much more to it!

12-07-20 02:45 AM - Post#905377    

Meet Ivan Denisov: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dtPBGvepkNI

He almost casually does 47 reps with two 40 KBs in just five minutes.

"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums. It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable. Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow. Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't." Dan Martin

12-07-20 04:27 AM - Post#905378    

I had a private lesson with Ivan a couple years back. He made me feel so small.

Interestingly, his advice to me when I mentioned I was doing another sport was to never use kettlebell sport principles to train for them.

Grivory Sport
12-07-20 05:48 AM - Post#905379    

• mission.failed Said:

With all due respect, I know of one amateur girevik who mainly does girevoy sport plus some bodyweight movements and he managed to deadlift 450 lbs. no problem without even training the lift. And he experienced great success training BJJ as well.

And all he does is LCCJ with 32s and 36s plus dips and pull ups.

Of course, being an elite athlete like Denisov trying to train like him would be quite demanding and not advisable.

"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums. It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable. Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow. Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't." Dan Martin

Edited by iPood on 12-07-20 05:49 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

Re: Grivory Sport
12-07-20 06:23 AM - Post#905380    

Yeah, I think we know the same guy haha!

I just thought Ivan's insight was interesting. I'm definitely not following it :)

Re: Grivory Sport
12-07-20 06:58 AM - Post#905382    

• mission.failed Said:

Could you, please, describe your current training? I’m very interested.

Keeping the volume and intensity at a sustainable level without substracting anything from the mat is pretty much my whole focus.

"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums. It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable. Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow. Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't." Dan Martin

Re: Grivory Sport
12-07-20 11:34 AM - Post#905397    

• iPood Said:

And all he does is LCCJ with 32s and 36s plus dips and pull ups.
That's a pretty serious "all". Long cycle with 32s and 36s is a lot of work - a lot of work.

Re: Grivory Sport
12-07-20 12:16 PM - Post#905398    

• Chris Rice Said:

Indeed it is.

By the way, the girevik I’m talking about is Dunn, over the IGx forum. A truly savage.

"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums. It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable. Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow. Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't." Dan Martin

12-07-20 01:14 PM - Post#905401    

• mission.failed Said:

I'm thinking about purchasing a custom plan from Levi. While I've bought plenty of books and training plans for a few bucks, I've never paid for a custom training plan before, but his prices are reasonable. ($60 for 6 weeks or $100 for 10 weeks.)

I'll say I'm interested in GPP and I like LCCJ and but not working with extremely light bells, and that I'm open to other movements/ideas as he sees fit - and we'll see what he comes up with.

Grivory Sport
12-07-20 01:31 PM - Post#905402    

• mission.failed Said:

That is interesting. And I've heard that before - (perhaps it's circular since we seem to be on the same forums.)

Did he say how would he have someone train for BJJ or 'the sport of life'?

When someone that has 'only*' has a hammer tells you not to use a hammer, it's pretty noteworthy. Usually they are so wed to their method they can't see there is a better way.

(*Not to imply that Ivan is one dimensional, but you probably know what I mean.)

---------------

At the risk of being a naysayer and too negative, I don't know what conclusions to draw from the elite Russians. They will have been training KB Sport for a long time to develop those strength levels and physiques. That's why I was intrigued by Old Miler's anecdote about his friend taking up KB Sport later in life and getting ripped/swole/whatever. Dunn might be a good example, too.

Marty Farrell was/is a beast with KBs, and looks very, uh, average.


Edited by Jim James on 12-07-20 01:48 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

Re: Grivory Sport
12-07-20 07:02 PM - Post#905411    

• iPood Said:

Right now I'm finishing off the year with Tom Furman's Armor of War material. Being from IGX you are probably familiar with that already. The plan is to work up to the one arm push up then switch to his GTG variant (he calls it NAK in the updated Train for Life book) and see where it takes me.

Before that, I was just doing blocks of C&P/C&J work. Ladders mostly, but occasionally would drop the weight down and do a 5 min max multi-switch timed set on C&J. Rounded out the program with rows, goblet squats, swings, and band work for the upper back. All single arm. Once I was pressing the 32kg, I moved to doubles, but decided to take a break from it and here we are. My technique with C&J is all GS stuff, I never learned any other way.

Anyway, I just try to get 2 sessions a week in around 3-4 BJJ classes a week (I'm in Australia, and COVID risk here is at a minimum). The rest is stretching. If I add a 3rd fitness session, it's just rope skipping. Maybe extra swings. Nothing crazy.

Re: Grivory Sport
12-07-20 09:03 PM - Post#905416    

• Jim James Said:

He pushed me towards high intensity circuit stuff. Modifying the lifts closer to hardstyle. Lots of explosive stuff with the weight in dead positions. No swings with kettlebells, always explosion off the ground. Zero efficiency. Emphasis on being able to maintain explosiveness while tired. Direct quote, "if you're training for jiu-jitsu or wrestling, you have to kill yourself".

I think it kind of tied in with all the Crossfit style stuff he was doing with Klokov at the time.

Re: Grivory Sport
12-08-20 02:08 AM - Post#905424    

• mission.failed Said:

G'day from a fellow Aussie and Tom Furman fan

Log

Re: Grivory Sport
12-08-20 03:10 AM - Post#905425    

• mission.failed Said:

I like that!

Thank you.

"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums. It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable. Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow. Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't." Dan Martin

Re: Grivory Sport
12-08-20 04:51 AM - Post#905426    

• iPood Said:

No worries. It's not particularly optimal, and I'm not hugely strong, but I found that chasing optimal always resulted in me doing more lifting than rolling! :P

Re: Grivory Sport
12-08-20 04:51 AM - Post#905427    

• aussieluke Said:

He's awesome. I wish I could afford his online coaching prices.

12-16-20 12:27 PM - Post#905749    

I decided to add a little of this into my current routine - nothing real strenuous -serious yet but learning/relearning technique and getting my hands back in shape. I'm enjoying it and probably will until I decide to do some 10 minute sets :).