11-21-20 08:32 AM - Post#904881    

I've tried asking this question in running forums and met with keep going until the wheels fall off as a response for the most part. At what point do you figure out when to scale back due to age related issues to avoid long term injury?

My goal is to scale back before I get injured and then be able to keep hiking & lifting until my 80's. Most of my running is to get me in shape for long all day hikes in places like the Grand Canyon. So will do a few trail half marathons a year, but not obsessed with running.

I'm not currently injured or looking at any knee or hip problems. The reason for the question is my running partners that are in their 60's have all told me I'm entering the danger years of 54-60 for runners. They've told me that the local running scene is littered with guys that burnt out or got injured in their mid to late 50's and are never seen or heard of again. Plus the guys that are left running in their 60's tend to be short & slight. I'm the opposite, tall and 40 pounds heavier.

At What Point Do You Scale Back?
11-21-20 08:39 AM - Post#904882    

How far are you running per week?

I like to run, 3-5 miles a couple times a week when the weather is nice. But that's it. And I do feel it in my hips when I'm done.

If you're doing more than 25 miles, you should probably consider finding other conditioning choices. There is no benefit beating on your joints, back and feet.

I used to like to lift heavy, popped my SI joint a couple of times and asked, what is the point?

Same with heavy kettlebells. I like feeling good without tendonitis from snatching a 70.

There is nothing wrong with pushing it once in a while, as long as you come away injury free. Almost 52 by the way.

Edited by BChase on 11-21-20 08:42 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

Re: At What Point Do You Scale Back?
11-21-20 09:25 AM - Post#904886    

• SpiderLegs Said:

When you gain actual wisdom based on experience (and before it is too late).

"The Earth has music for those who listen." Reginald Holmes "Be careful about reading health books. You may die of a misprint." Mark Twain "It's difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." Upton Sinclair

11-21-20 09:55 AM - Post#904888    

For me (not a runner, just lifting etc), I gradually started to notice increasing frequency of small tweaks, aches and pains. That came from just paying close attention to how I feel as an ongoing practice. That plus trying, as much as possible, to dump my ego and any externally referenced goals showed "the hand writting on the wall". Kind of sucks but there's no arguing with reality and the relentless calendar.

11-21-20 11:46 AM - Post#904890    

Fatigue....just generally thinking everything (non 'training' related) was getting harder or mentally more of task to approach.

Richard

11-21-20 11:59 AM - Post#904891    

Good advice so far. Listen carefully to your body and consider what it's telling you in the context of your goals. If you want to run into your 80's you may need to reduce intensity, volume or maybe both.

"Coyote is always waiting, and Coyote is always hungry."

11-21-20 03:22 PM - Post#904901    

<Essay alert - you may want to scroll down!>

I'm very active in the administration of Masters athletics in UK and Europe and know a lot of the best distance runners. I second the original point - a lot of people feel "normal" and invincible until late 40s, then 'fall off a cliff'. We do not decline smoothly - we gradually creep up in speed between injuries, then s**t happens and we drop down, and the overall effect is a sawtooth which declines. A large proportion of those running hard gradually migrate to a bike for a chunk of their training.

I have a good friend who set the British mile record in his 50s and got a World Masters silver in the M50s at 5000m. He was near-international in his 20s as a runner, then turned to triathlon. He just turned 60 and is running really well, despite major back surgery 5 years ago. But he never runs more than 25 miles per week, and does many, many hours on the bike and in the pool each day. It helps that he sold a business and can spend all his time on family and sport.

I "peaked" at 47, training like a youngster (70mpw for a key 6 weeks pre-race with full-on sprinting regularly), but since then have averaged 20mpw due to "life" and business pressures, rather than injuries. I aspire to hitting 40-50mpw for periods in a buildup, but certainly would not do it all year round. I'd mix in cross training now.

What I bitterly regret is deliberately 'cutting back'. The end effect was I just deliberately lost work capacity and fitness, and it's a lot harder to get back. With hindsight I just wish I had kept training and racing - e.g. an hour a day - rather than having to claw my way back to it.

So, don't be surprised if the odd injury makes you cut back; but in the meantime, just enjoy for as long as you can! Luckily most running injuries are cured by taking a couple of weeks off...

11-21-20 03:24 PM - Post#904902    

One more point: like me, you are on this forum, therefore you almost certainly squat regularly (for range if not for weight) and train your whole body. So you aren't going to get all those "nothing-but-running" injuries.

So, run until the wheels fall off, but keep servicing the car!

11-21-20 04:35 PM - Post#904903    

You can do periodic risk/reward assessments and see what you might do to reduce risk and/or increase reward.

"Coyote is always waiting, and Coyote is always hungry."

11-21-20 11:05 PM - Post#904922    

All good points, thanks!

I've always been one of those guys who is like a finicky European sports cars that needs tweaking and tuning all the time. But once I'm dialed in I can give it all I can on a long day in the Grand Canyon or similar.

One thing that I've done a good job of is resisting the siren song of doing an ultramarathon of any sort. I think the sport of trail running has been taken over by the ultra guys. Personally I think the half marathon distance is the perfect distance. Long enough to feel that you've accomplished something, but not so long that it eats up a lot of family time. I can train for 3-4 hours on a Saturday morning for a half marathon, take a quick catnap and be ready to spend the day shopping with my wife or running errands. Looking over my training logs, I rarely if ever get over 25 miles a week of running.

Guess I'm more nervous about the career ending injuries and how to avoid them at my age (54). Have been smart enough to realize that guys over 6 feet tall and 180+ pounds don't win or place in my age group no matter how much training I do. Focusing now on single day experiences like a long day in the mountains rather than an organized race.

11-22-20 07:28 AM - Post#904929    

• SpiderLegs Said:

It sounds like you should just keep on keeping on. Just be aware of aches and pains and back off instead of fighting through. Meaning, if you have to walk 5 miles back to the house do it.

I agree with Old Miler's points. Especially dropping off the cliff in late 40's. I played indoor soccer until 47. But calf pulls started. It would pop, feel great 24 hours later, play goalie the next week and as soon as I played the field 2 weeks later, the tugging would start. Lifting, SI joint popped. Baseball, my throwing arm, disappeared. I played 3rd base and could flip the ball across the diamond. Then it felt like I was heaving a boulder. no snap on it. And in hoop the body wouldn't do what the mind told it.

11-22-20 09:08 AM - Post#904930    

Sooner or later your body will tell you to scale back in no uncertain terms. You should probably scale back before that happens :). For me at age 72 - I found variety has been key - I'm now working on wearing out all my different body parts a little bit instead of wearing out just a few completely.

11-22-20 10:04 AM - Post#904932    

• Chris Rice Said:

This!!! I'm hoping it all breaks at once, hopefully only hours or days before I go over the event horizon at the very end

11-22-20 11:32 AM - Post#904936    

I am 59 and just changed my running. I still do a long slow trail run on Sunday. But I have shortened my week day runs but went from 2 to 3 runs during the week.
I will lift early morning and run about 9 at night on the same day. Which gives me 3 days of just walking . At 6 foot I am about 205 (down from 215) I would like to get to 190.
My knees ache some that is why i don’t run on roads anymore.

11-22-20 10:29 PM - Post#904955    

I’m trying to work on these things:

1. Don’t Do Dumb Stuff (DDDS). Sadly, all too often only recognized in the Doctor’s waiting room.

2. Monitor recovery levels daily.

3. On the heirarchy of sustainable >> doable >> optimal - aim squarely for sustainable and only occasionally for doable. Accept that optimal is in the rear view mirror.

4. Get the mental stuff right:
- Ignore how much my mind thinks I should be doing and the internal chatter about how much other people are doing and do what works for me.
- Try and maintain that sweet spot where I turn up to training every day feeling courageous.
- Don’t do sessions that I dread.
- Don’t train if I don’t feel like training.
- If I’m procrastinating about going training, then don’t train.
- Take careful note of those moments when I’m training and I find myself smiling.

11-22-20 11:09 PM - Post#904956    

Great list AusDaz.

11-23-20 05:00 AM - Post#904958    

• AusDaz Said:

There's a book in there. Just saying...

"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums. It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable. Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow. Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't." Dan Martin

At What Point Do You Scale Back?
11-23-20 07:46 AM - Post#904960    

Again, some gems in here.

Tough thing for me is my general neighborhood outside of Tucson is where a lot of very fit guys from cold states come to retire. Instead of having one outlier that defies aging, I know of about 20 that I will bump into at races or out on the trail. As an example, couple of the guys I train with told me about going back to do a race in the midwest on their summer trips to visit family. There in the 55+ age categories there were a total of 3-5 guys at the big trail running event. Just finishing the race got you a top three finish.

Here locally, one of my running partners is 76. Told me about a big event that had 20 guys in the 70+ range and 5 in the 75-80 category. He actually had to race hard to get a top three finish at age 76.

So that is a tough spot to be. In any other state I'd finish in the top 5 of most trail running events in my age group. But around here? Good enough to crack the top 50% on a day when all is well.

Very hard to avoid DDDS, really fight the urge when I see what people are posting online who are my age or older.

Edited by SpiderLegs on 11-23-20 07:48 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

At What Point Do You Scale Back?
11-23-20 11:10 AM - Post#904964    

Well, the real answer is that I scale back when I get hurt or just hit a brick wall. Getting older places an even higher premium on what you do outside of training. For me, problems in the gym are usually (always) directly related to one of the following: 1. not eating enough calories and protein 2. not drinking enough water 3. trying to do too much volume (I can go heavy OR do a lot of volume... the days of getting away with both are long gone).

When I have a shit meet or workout the answer is ALWAYS that I have been slacking about eating. I can even get away with bad sleep and lots of life stress if my diet is good.

I think Dan Martin mentioned that this is what drove him out of competitive powerlifting. Someday I am just going to be unwilling to eat this much anymore. I already hate food and feel like a fat turd most of the time, but my training just goes in the toilet when I don't eat enough.

So I guess what I'm saying is...don't automatically assume that a drop in performance is just about getting older. Maybe it means that you've gotten to the point where improvement is going to require a lot more effort (smarter training, better diet, etc). And that may be more of a commitment than you're willing to give for a recreational activity. I'm bumping up hard against this myself.

And another thing to make this post even longer. It sounds like the OP just wants to stay active and hike a lot and occasionally compete. That sounds very reasonable to maintain and still enjoy your life. HOWEVER if your goal was to be a competitive runner and continue to improve you could do that, but you would have to be willing to sacrifice a lot. I imagine competitive running is a lot like powerlifting, a lot of people just doing it for fun, but a few who take it extremely seriously and want to get very good at it. Some of them are genetic freaks, but all of them have a single minded focus. They don't play pickup basketball and take 10 mile hikes on the weekend or ride their bike for fun or do stupid stuff. They save all of their physical and emotional energy for lifting. Train and eat and rest PERIOD. If you are not willing to do that, just have fun and don't worry about getting better once you've gotten your newbie gains out of the way.

"The trouble about always trying to preserve the health of the body is that it is so difficult to do without destroying the health of the mind."~GK Chesterton

Edited by Browser on 11-23-20 12:15 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

11-23-20 12:13 PM - Post#904965    

For me sleep is everything.
I moved my running during the week to 9 at night.
I am running less miles a day but more days and more sleep.
I still lift 2 days in morning.
I eat less now and certain foods I just can’t eat anymore.
20 miles a week is about my limit now.
But I still push the lifting as much as possible

Re: At What Point Do You Scale Back?
11-23-20 03:28 PM - Post#904974    

• SpiderLegs Said:

I always looked enviously at the vast number of talented masters in Southern California and in Spain. Athletes, like planes and cars, just rust less in that climate.

Re: At What Point Do You Scale Back?
11-23-20 04:30 PM - Post#904976    

• Old Miler Said:

The master's field in any endurance sport is deep out here. In my cycling days in college there were a handful of guys 35-40+ that still competed at the semi-pro level. One guy even made the Olympic squad when he was 42 I believe.

I've made peace that at my age, level of marriage happiness and physique being elite at anything more than power hiking isn't in the cards.

Had the opportunity to see some people that just turned 65 signing up for Medicare this morning. It was simply hard to believe that they were 11 years older than me. I can see why I've been warned the next few years are the danger zone. All your bad habits seem to accumulate and hit you hard at 60-something.

Re: At What Point Do You Scale Back?
11-23-20 05:00 PM - Post#904977    

Yes, but the bad habits people should worry about tend to include sugar/starch, booze, stress...

If e.g. you are comfortable running 30 miles per week with one speed session, there is absolutely no reason to deliberately cut it back to 15 miles of jogging. Because it's really, really hard to claw your way back up.

Re: At What Point Do You Scale Back?
12-13-20 10:38 AM - Post#905599    

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news /ex-wales-rugby-internati onal-whose-19427704

Saw this & thought of this thread.

I know it isn't running however I feel it's apt.

Re: At What Point Do You Scale Back?
12-13-20 11:44 AM - Post#905601    

• Cearball Said:

Great article, and the photographs he took are incredible. He is a very talented guy. Thanks for posting!

Why are you squatting in the curl rack?