10-27-20 03:02 PM - Post#904015    

For the next four months I will focus on strength and hypertrophy via barbells. Hunkering in the bunker as it were, even in saner times the miserable climate here makes strength instead of endurance a good plan. Maybe around Groundhog Day poke my head out to see what the covid situation looks like, but otherwise just maintain some basic aerobic fitness before switching gears March 1.

So I’m trying to make up my mind between two 5/3/1 programs, the beginner program and the two day. I like the idea of three days during the winter since there won’t be much else to do but train inside a freezing barn. OTOH, a two day plan allows more recovery, then I could strip it down for a minimalist routine during endurance season. So:

5/3/1 Beginner

A:
SQ 5/3/1
BP 3x8
Assistance- chins, landmine press, SLRDL
B:
DL 5/3/1
MP 5/3/1
Assistance- Dips, Bulg. split squat
C:
Same as A, but SQ and BP flipped

Two Day:

A:
SQ 5/3/1
BP 5/3/1
Assistance- chins, landmine press, SLRDL

B:
DL 5/3/1
P 5/3/1
Assistance- dips, Landmine row, Bulg. Split Sq

Conditioning on non lifting days will be based on an “indoor triathlon” combining rowing erg with swings and carries and a short treadmill run and bike trainer, about 60-75 min total. And rucking with the dogs at a separate time daily.

Thoughts?

Edited by vegpedlr on 10-27-20 03:05 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

10-27-20 03:09 PM - Post#904016    

I would do 5/3/1 + 5x5 FSL + Assistance.

But, frankly, it doesn’t really matter which 5/3/1 flavor you choose. They are all good, they will all work.

"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums. It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable. Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow. Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't." Dan Martin

10-27-20 04:07 PM - Post#904017    

I don't recognize these options from Jim...but they all work. It's reasonable!

Daniel John Just handing down what I was handed down... Make a Difference. Live. Love. Laugh. Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude) Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk. Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth. Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights. Reread great books. Say thank you

5/3/1 Advice Please
10-27-20 04:22 PM - Post#904019    

With the original 5/3/1 Wendler recommended four training sessions per week but three could work.

https://www.t-nation.com/workouts/531-how-to-b uild-pure-strength

He advised against going wild with supplemental work and not to customize.

I've been through 5/3/1 a couple of times and found that there were plenty of times that my spidey senses told me to opt for the "Jack Sh!t" option where supplemental lifts were concerned. Had I not been over 55 before committing to the program it might have been different.

You're a smart guy, verpedlr, so I won't pretend to know what's best for you. While I get a bit fed up with SF dogma (not to suggest that 5/3/1 is SF) I think that sticking to the program as written is a good idea.

Edited by Upside on 10-27-20 07:20 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

10-27-20 08:46 PM - Post#904029    

The beginner program is in the second edition of the original book, and the two day program is in the first book as well. Dips and chins show up as recommended assistance, the landmine moves are replacements for DBs which the barn lacks. The only deviation is the single leg work. I know DJ is not a fan, but my sporting interests go one leg at a time. Also, I want to keep working on that single leg strength to prepare for some more sport specific muscle endurance sessions in the spring. That is, if a racing season seems likely. If it’s too much I can always cut it out.

What are the thoughts on three vs two days?

10-27-20 08:56 PM - Post#904030    

Based on the conditioning regimen you outlined I would see the two-day as the way to go.

10-28-20 02:24 AM - Post#904032    

Considering your conditioning interest, I vote for 2 day option too.

10-28-20 08:00 AM - Post#904035    

5/3/1. is a great program. I ran it for a couple of years, it works.

It looks like you're keeping it simple in regard to the assistance work. Do not get hung up on the assistance work.

I ran the Total Body Program and First Set Last and First Set Last 5 x 5 with success.

Tips:
Start light and be honest with your 90% max. Especially on the military press. Everyone gets stuck on the military press first.

Second, do the Military Press before the deadlifts. Doing upper body work has never cooked the lower body.

Do sets of chins between sets of everything else. 3-5 reps, you'll get great volume doing this.

Don't bother with the Bulgarian Split squats and Rear deadlifts. Swings for conditioning should be enough for your hamstrings. I had better success doing squats all 3 days. 3 x 10, or 5.

It works, make sure to focus on the big lifts. Not the assistant work.

10-28-20 09:27 AM - Post#904036    

I think the two-day routine is the way to go for an endurance athlete, since it fits those who will commit to what Wendler calls "hard conditioning" on off days.

That said, take another look at The Triumvirate, which gives you more days of weight training without killing the energy needed for your planned cardio with too much assistance work.

Be strong. Be in shape. Be a man among men, regardless of your age or circumstances.

10-28-20 10:25 AM - Post#904038    

I did the two days a week option while prepping for a KB cert. I practiced KBs daily at some level and stayed strong doing the 5/3/1

I liked it.

Daniel John Just handing down what I was handed down... Make a Difference. Live. Love. Laugh. Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude) Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk. Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth. Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights. Reread great books. Say thank you

10-28-20 03:49 PM - Post#904045    

In my very limited experience, the less days I lift on, the more sore I make them, and the more it interferes with cardio stuff. 60-75min of cardio could be anything from easy Maffetone-type cruising (fine with tired legs) up to strenuous intervals (impossible), so it depends what you want it to be.

The plus side to lifting 2 days is that you can probably pick one cardio day when your legs are fresh enough to rev it up a bit and maintain your peak aerobic work...

10-28-20 05:28 PM - Post#904047    

What is your age?

How many years have you been weight lifting?

What is your end goal?

Do you think super heavy lifts are healthy for someone in the long run who is training as a non professional?

Do you believe hypertrophy training is the same as strength training?

10-28-20 06:14 PM - Post#904050    

If you do 3 days a week you can run a 4 week cycle and keep the 4 days focused on one major lift per. So: day 1 bench, day 2 squat, day 3 press, day 4 deadlift. Standard 531, just spread out over a week and a bit instead of packed into one week.

I'm assuming you have the first 2 books so I can fire out lingo you'll understand. 2 days a week is great, especially if you have some conditioning goals/a life. One of the things wendler talks about in 531 forever (great book, you should get it) is changing focus on the main lifts every few cycles so you don't overload the day. So first 2-3 cycles do main lift, do supplement like FSL, 5x5, BBB, widowmaker etc for that main lift, second main lift is just 531 sets or 5's pro as just maintenance. Then switch it up.

Another way to do 2 days/week is to spread the cycle over 6 weeks and do sq/be week 1 and dl/pr week 2. It's long slow progress, but it actually works. Ya, sure it's a wild idea to hit the main lifts once every 2 weeks, especially at this day in age of high frequency every day training. You can counteract this by doing supplemental assistance on the 'off' weeks. So if you DL 531, do Squat BBB or whatever so you still get the practice every week. Soreness will be a thing though...

Lots of ideas there. 2 times a week is great and gets my vote. You can easily make solid progress on strength doing 2 days a week while also keeping other goals going.

10-28-20 08:44 PM - Post#904054    

Thanks for the input gang. I’m really leaning toward two days. Despite liking three days a week in winter, I suspect that two days a week may be more sustainable for four months. I think the extra recovery might help. I’ve reflecting over the summer when I ran back to back cycles of Fabio Zonin’s quarantine program. At three days a week it was hard enough that aerobic work was definitely back burner. Another aspect I like is being able to take that two day template and dial it back for an endurance season. Two days of just maintenance, either C+P+FSQ, or DL/BP. One thing I’ve always like about high frequency programs is that less importance lands on each session. If you miss a day, just hit it again tomorrow and postpone a rest day. A lot like endurance training, just keep going. But with fewer or more dedicated sessions, I fear I might try to reschedule and reshuffle too much.

I should mention that all aerobic stuff I mentioned, rowing, rucking, indoor stuff, all at MAF. No intensity until spring. So with a two day schedule maybe I take some time to keep a little KB work. Gotta remember to bring my bells inside so I don’t freeze my hands.

10-29-20 09:21 AM - Post#904059    

I've done the two-day variation, along with varying amounts of mountain biking. The only thing I don't like (and this holds for most 5/3/1 variations) is that I'm only hitting the big moves once a week. Particularly for me, that crushes my bench (which is pathetic anyway ... I'm more "European" as Dan talked about in a recent Facebook video). Also, my squat is sensitive to "too-low-frequency syndrome". DL is very resilient to low-frequency, for me (and most folks?). Your mileage, of course, may vary.

Best,
Mark

10-29-20 09:52 AM - Post#904060    

• Mark Fenner Said:

How about this?

Week 1

Session 1: Squat 5/3/1 + Stiff Leg Deadlift FSL 5x5 + upper body push and pull 5x10.

Session 2: Bench 5/3/1 + Bent Over Row. FSL 5x5 + unilateral lower body push and pull 5x10.

Week 2

Session 1: Deadlift 5/3/1 + Front Squat FSL 5x5 + upper body push and pull 5x10.

Session 2: Pendlay Row (*) 5/3/1 + Incline Press FSL 5x5 + unilateral lower body push and pull 5x10.

(*) I know Wendler says not to use rows as a main lift, but I still treat them like one. Dan Martin and Brian Alshrue would probably agree.

This way you are doing every session some kind of deep knee bend, deep hinge, a press and a pull.

"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums. It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable. Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow. Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't." Dan Martin

5/3/1 Advice Please
10-29-20 01:39 PM - Post#904071    

• iPood Said:

If you're doing rows as a main lift, then it's not 5/3/1. No one says you can't do it, but you won't be NOV :).

I think, if you want to run 5/3/1, you need to focus on strength for 6-12 weeks Meaning going hard in the gym and pushing yourself especially on the last set. It will affect your endurance and you have to accept that.

If you want to run 20 + miles a week on top of it (Hypothetical example) you're not going to get the return you want.

For conditioning. I wouldn't do more than 6-10 hill sprints 2 x a week. You need to rest and recover especially going hard on lifting days.

Pavel had the right idea laying out a workout in Enter the Kettlebell. 3 days lifting, 2 Variety days (I would use as conditioning) 2 days off.

Not a fan of 2 days a week. For me, I make gains by higher frequency.




Edited by BChase on 10-29-20 01:53 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

10-29-20 04:59 PM - Post#904081    

Hello,
I have been reading/lurking here for many years (I am now 53, last time I posted was around 6yrs ago for feedback and results of a power/odd lift comp)
I have used 5/3/1 a few times and did it the following way:

2 days/week

Day 1
1. SQ - 5/3/1 as written
2. OHP- same as above
No assistance work

Day 2
1. DL - 5/3/1 as written
2. Floor press (no bench in my garage) same as above
No assistance work

This was during wrestling season (coach for 20+ years). I had little time, so very "minimal".I still had enough energy on off days to get some conditioning in. Later I paired partial DL and Floor press as my bar was on jacks as my "rack" just like combining squat and ohp on a standard rack.

Sincerely,
Scott

11-05-20 07:54 AM - Post#904286    

• iPood Said:

I like that you're getting the movement patterns repeatedly and that's definitely one way to go. For myself, if I *had* to do two-a-week and wanted to make some progress on the lifts, I'd probably end up simply doing:

Day 1: SQ + Bench + other.
Day 2: SQ + Bench + other.

Other would include accessory work and, possibly, some volumey stuff for SQ/Bench depending on set/rep scheme for the main lifts.

Note, this is close to Dan's long term plan for throwers (but do it for 4-6 years or so with some Oly stuff thrown in -- and keep throwing!). So, I claim no novelty here.

Best,
Mark