10-15-20 10:28 AM - Post#903530    

In an earlier thread there was one comment and or question about bulking up the trainee's arms without bulking up the rest of the body.

It made me think of two things: Gymnasts...and John McCallum. Gymnasts should be obvious. Some of those guys arm's are incredible. They do no supplementary weight work, but they do do thousands of dips and ring pullups along various other bodyweight exercises.

John McCallum in Keys to Progress wrote an article about a trainee who wanted to bulk up his upperbody. The problem is, the trainee lost a leg in a car accident. Which really is problematic because John's go to answer for building up your arms was simply a matter of adding to your 20 rep squat weight and doing a ton more stiff-leg deadlifts.

His advice to the amputee? Dips! And more dips! John McCallum was about as profound as our Dan John. But, like our Dan John, was wildly misquoted and or misunderstood. (I'll use DJ's Overhead Squat article for an example.) John McCallum said, and I quote, "The dip will do for the upperbody what the squat does for the whole body." YMMV of course, but simply doing parallel bar dips and close grip pullups will build some bitching pipes if you go after it slowly.

Mark it Zero.

10-15-20 11:00 AM - Post#903535    

For sure, Dan M. Dips are indeed fabulous -- my favorite BW move. I don't have my copy in front of me, but I think JMcC suggested building up to at least BW added (i.e., 185 strapped to your waist if you weigh 185), so that goal should keep most people going for a good long time!

And for gymnast arms, you've gotta work up to the more advanced stuff on rings and PB, but if you have the leverages and start when you are 4 years old, that route could certainly work too...

10-15-20 11:44 AM - Post#903536    

Give my vote to dips as well. I've heard it called the upper body squat before.

One of the big side benefits of dips is it trains the scapula and shoulder musculature in one of the most ignored movement patterns, pushing down. L-sits and dips are the only two movements that require the scapula to depress with the arm pointing straight down.

I also have read before that the old timers would train weighted dips - well into the 200+lb range - to improve their bench press.

In terms of arm size though, one arm rows and pull-ups have always done a lot for me.

10-15-20 06:04 PM - Post#903548    

Dips and Chins. SSFHS's afternoon play. We were all lean and ripped and had nice pipes.

Many of my athletes couldn't do either as adipose tissue has built up over about two generations.

Daniel John Just handing down what I was handed down... Make a Difference. Live. Love. Laugh. Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude) Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk. Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth. Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights. Reread great books. Say thank you

10-15-20 08:37 PM - Post#903550    

"but simply doing parallel bar dips and close grip pullups will build some bitching pipes if you go after it slowly."

palms facing in or facing out? My inclination is that palms facing in would be more a pipe builder.

"A sunset fixes everything" www.activelifeandlive.wordpress.com

10-15-20 09:31 PM - Post#903551    

If you’re good at chin-ups- Throw a towel or a piece of rope over the bar and and you’ll find those forearms will also receive a decent bit of work.
Finish of with some upward shrugs to round off a great experience.
Hand spacing is not really an issue unless you want to perform chin’s as a staple, the best way to determine the hand spacing was best (for me) described by Dave Maurice.

Dips enable one to build great thickness in the tricep if done well.
Most seldom do IMO

Nice legs-shame about the face

10-15-20 10:28 PM - Post#903553    

With my bad shoulder I can’t do dips
What can i do

10-15-20 11:23 PM - Post#903555    

• tom6112 Said:

I can’t do dips pain free either. I like close grip bench.

"The trouble about always trying to preserve the health of the body is that it is so difficult to do without destroying the health of the mind."~GK Chesterton

10-16-20 12:08 AM - Post#903557    

I've mentioned this before, but when I started doing dips and pull-ups with added weight I jumped up to get started on the dip bars. Taking two 25 pound plates to my naught bits hurt. I used a step stool after that.

I had one of those belts to hold the added plates. It looked really weird walking around with a couple 45's hanging between my legs. (Four 25's were even worse!)

Besides squats, deadlifts and power cleans, dips provided the most bang for the buck in my case. For years I languished around the low to mid 300's. I started to do 3 sets of five dips with bodyweight after each workout. Eventually I added weight. When I got to adding over a hundred pounds for that last set of 5, my bench took off. Nothing spectacular but 60 pounds is 60 pounds. Never broke 400 in a contest, but I would put on a show at the fire station and do a bounce off my chest with 405 and make it rain.

To digress, in my case I found it very hard to add weight to each of my three, well four power lifts. Some contests my squat was clicking, sometimes both the squat and deadlift. (But my deadlift was power clean dependent. If my clean was lagging so was my deadlift.)

It wasn't until I quit getting hung up on my lack of bench prowess and just let it happen, I got better. In a nut shell, I made better gains focusing on the squat, deadlift and power clean than over specializing on the bench. Two of my training partners were very good benchers and I spent a lot of time trying to keep up. It never happened.

Back to the dips...I would descend slowly and stop when my chest had sunk to nipple depth, no further. I "exploded" back up to completion. When my humerus would stack over my forearms it kind of hurt. Nothing problematic, it just hurt for a split second.

I've always felt that my "core" was undertrained and least for the body is one piece thing. Not doing any meaningful overhead pressing or weighted carries probably cost me pounds on my total. But such is life.

Mark it Zero.

10-16-20 12:19 AM - Post#903558    

• tom6112 Said:

This would be, in my opinion, even better than dips and bench: https://www.instagram.com/p/BoPMweqH-re/

"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums. It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable. Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow. Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't." Dan Martin

10-16-20 04:02 AM - Post#903562    

• Browser Said:

I couldn't do dips either pain-free before I started doing them Easy Strength style. In general I find that Easy Stength workouts do wonders for shoulder pain.

10-16-20 08:36 AM - Post#903574    

• Timo Said:

Bingo.

Most people I see who get shoulder pain from dips are trying to do them with tight, forward, hunched chest/shoulders. In which case, a few ES weeks of full depth, thumbs-into-armpits dips, with the shoulders pulled all the way back (same as the “perfect” pull-up) seems to rebuild everything into the shoulder’s natural configuration. Like strength yoga.

10-16-20 08:52 AM - Post#903575    

close grip chins -> big biceps

10-16-20 08:56 AM - Post#903576    

• jamej Said:

For some.

As stated earlier in this thread, some people can get big biceps from chins/pullups, but some most definitely will not (ask me how I know).

Same for deadlifts.

I don't personally get anything out of either of those exercises in terms of muscle growth. Strength yes, muscle, no.

But I don't think I have ever seen or heard of anyone not getting (much) bigger from high-rep squats...

10-16-20 09:03 AM - Post#903577    

+1 on engaging the back/lats to minimize shoulder pain. I also find that the angle of the elbows in or out makes a big difference, and I suspect is individual to the wonky shoulder in question.

I also take pretty much the whole first set to work into full depth. My first set is basically warmup and finding the groove.

Bulking the Arms
10-16-20 11:10 AM - Post#903584    

• iPood Said:

I was just going to suggest this. With 3 boxes or a box and hanging rings, weighted pushups becomes infinitely scalable and progression is easy. Instead of chains you can hang plates/kettlebells from just below the shoulder blades with a dip belt.

I would say it's superior to bench if used in that context. It's closed chain, the scaps are free to move, the core is worked because you are doing a weighted plank, it's safe to do with no spotter. It's brilliant really.

Also, +1 for the neutral grip pull-ups being bicep builders. Worked for me. Although like Brian said, pull-ups don't work for everyone in that regard.



Edited by Jordan Derksen on 10-16-20 11:11 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

Bulking the Arms
10-16-20 01:02 PM - Post#903589    

FINALLY, something about pullups!!! Our gym is holding a chalkboard challenge, and one of the events is pullups. Dead hang. Chin above bar. No kipping. Palms forward, neutral, and chin grips are allowed. So far, I'm in the lead with 30 (chins).

Dips are not included, but I got 28 this morning. They didn't quite meet Jordan's fists to armpits rule, but they were well below horizontal.

Yea, I know this has nothing to do with big gunz, but I hadda brag somewhere. #oldmenrule

Be strong. Be in shape. Be a man among men, regardless of your age or circumstances.

Edited by AAnnunz on 10-16-20 02:17 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

10-16-20 01:31 PM - Post#903591    

Very nice work, Al!

Re: Bulking the Arms
10-16-20 04:36 PM - Post#903598    

• AAnnunz Said:

Whoa. Nice work! I am sufficiently intimidated, haha.

10-16-20 06:38 PM - Post#903602    

30! When I grow up I want to be like Uncle Al.

Owen Brown, a Biomedical Scientist from Pontyclun, Wales.

10-16-20 08:44 PM - Post#903615    

30?? In a row? Dead hang between?

Dang... good work! I’m half your age and I would be happy if I could do half that number.

10-16-20 08:51 PM - Post#903616    

Al you are a freak of nature.

10-16-20 11:50 PM - Post#903619    

A program of Deeps, Cheens and Schquats would probably work good for building arms. Sure! Work those three hard two or three times a week, eat a whole lot, sleep a whole lot and there it is.

Wait a minute . . .
28 dips and 30 chins?
Man, you make me anxious to lift tomorrow morning, Al!
Hahaha . . . nice!!!

Life's too short to worry about longevity.

10-17-20 12:01 AM - Post#903620    

I knew a retired trapeze artist and acrobat who was complaining that for the first time since he could remember, he couldn't do sets of 30 pullups whenever he felt like it. He was also upset that he was starting to put on weight from his nightly big bowl of ice cream before bed that had been his tradition for many years.

If I recall correctly, he was 83 at the time...

Re: Bulking the Arms
10-17-20 04:09 AM - Post#903627    

• AAnnunz Said:

Haha, top work Al!

'You can throw in the towel or use it to wipe the sweat off your face and keep going' 'Well ain't this place a geographical oddity? Two weeks from everywhere.' Ulysses Everett McGill

10-17-20 04:14 AM - Post#903628    

• Neander Said:

I mean, on the face of it, a good go at this with the correct application and calories intake you could do some good stuff in general. Put like like that it almost makes me feel my workouts are cluttered, it’s almost tempting to give it a go for a while.

'You can throw in the towel or use it to wipe the sweat off your face and keep going' 'Well ain't this place a geographical oddity? Two weeks from everywhere.' Ulysses Everett McGill

10-17-20 07:24 AM - Post#903633    

• Jordan Derksen Said:

If you REALLY want to dive into a corner, curl up in a ball and cry, just go read Uncle Al’s training log and check his numbers.

"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums. It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable. Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow. Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't." Dan Martin

10-17-20 11:59 AM - Post#903634    

One thing I was not clear on, when I said close-grip pull-ups I was referencing triangle pull=ups. Which is not seen too often but easier on the elbows than chin-ups. YMMV of course.

Mark it Zero.

Bulking the Arms
10-17-20 12:15 PM - Post#903635    

I'll be the contrarian.

I could do 20 deadhang pullups and my arms didn't look like I even lifted.

I worked up to a 1rm chin with 80lbs added. At this point, it looked like I lifted but still no one was going to be impressed with my guns.

I turned my nose up at all the gym bros doing "non-functional" curls.

Last year I spent some time overseas deployed with much younger military guys. For all the talk of functional fitness and being hard to kill, most of them mainly want to look good in the mirror. They did tons of curls. Even the ones that were serious about powerlifting did lots of curls.

Their arms were much bigger than mine, even the ones I could out lift.

I added curls and at age 47 my arms started to grow. I usually do some version of the curl that works the forearm too, since I've been on a grip/armlifting kick lately and at least I can pretend there's a "functional" reason to do ten sets of curls. (I do weighted pullups before curls.)


(this isn't meant to sound snarky.) Gymnast have big arms, but they have trained intensely from age what, six or seven? to get those big arms. Yes, they use rings and bodyweight exclusively, but that doesn't mean we mature folks will get similar results by adopting their movements at a later age and not training as intensely. Their arms' time under tension could probably be measured in days by the time they hit their 20s.

(And we would never see the ones whose bodies didn't respond to that type of training, as they would have quit or been culled from the elite gymnastics teams and never made it to a high profile stage.)



Edited by Jim James on 10-17-20 02:54 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

Re: Bulking the Arms
10-17-20 04:18 PM - Post#903636    

Thanks for the encouragement, guys. Sorry for being such an attention whore, but sometimes the old man needs a boost.

• Jim James Said:

Not to me, Jim. Like you, I include both pullups and curls in all of my routines. And while chin grip and to a lesser degree neutral grip pullups, especially weighted, have certainly helped me maintain decent bicep size (for a geezer), the primary players have been curl variations. I think this article does a good job of explaining why:
https://outlift.com/chin-ups-vs-curls-for -biceps-growth/

Be strong. Be in shape. Be a man among men, regardless of your age or circumstances.

Edited by AAnnunz on 10-18-20 09:41 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

10-17-20 04:35 PM - Post#903637    

Jim, nothing wrong with curls around here thankfully. I used to laugh at them for being ‘bodybuilder isolation exercises.’ Or so I thought while flopping around like a drunk fish doing ‘Pullups’. Oh crossfit...

Reading Dans material has convinced me to give curls a good go. The barbell ‘cheating’ kind no less.

Also that’s a great point about gymnasts. It doesn’t work to use the elite to justify a rule.

I have always felt pull-ups, weighted and strict, did a lot for my arms. But for probably everyone here, it’s hard to say for sure. Fact is we all do more exercises than just pullups and it’s hard to say for sure what is doing what. Anything with the arms has potential to grow them, and if you use a lot of compound exercises that’s basically everything.

10-20-20 12:59 AM - Post#903740    

• Jordan Derksen Said:

The other secret to the gymnast physique is choosing your parents wisely!

10-20-20 08:53 AM - Post#903747    

• Dan Christensen Said:

That secret has broad applicability. :-)

Bulking the Arms
10-29-20 09:00 AM - Post#904058    

Folks, ring dips are a nice option for people with joint issues on dips - they bother my shoulders and elbows less, for one.
You might need to drop reps at first as you develop the stabilizers but it's a quick ramp back up.
Add weight and there you go.
Also a nice effect is they seem to hit the Upper pecs more then regular dips which seem to hit the Lower pecs more.
YMMV....

Less Hercules, more Achilles.

Edited by ledfistaco on 10-29-20 09:01 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

10-30-20 09:43 AM - Post#904107    

Back in my rugby days I weighed in at 95kg's (210lbs). I was all shoulders, triceps, quads and glutes.

As all my team mates curled their sessions away I built up to 3x5 of dips bodyweight + 40kg's and chins bodyweight + 30kg's.

There was no way my triceps or biceps could handle that loading using isolation movements.

Richard

10-30-20 05:38 PM - Post#904135    

The first step to getting a gymnast's body is acquiring a pair of those cool shoes.

Life's too short to worry about longevity.