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Display Name Post: Clinical trial on intermittent fasting        (Topic#37406)
RupertC
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Total Posts: 1479
09-30-20 02:09 AM - Post#902931    



Research: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternal medicine/fullarticle/2771 095?guestAccessKey=444bbc b2-7e...

Twitter thread: https://twitter.com/ethanjweiss/status/13 10595463452614656

Conclusion from thread: "1) no matter how you slice it, prescription of TRE [time restricted eating] is not a very effective weight loss strategy; 2) There was no advantage to TRE when compared to a proper control group; 3) What weight was lost looked to come more from muscle mass than fat mass"
Check out my critical-thinking blog at sharpenyouraxe.substack.com


 
Dan Christensen
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Total Posts: 122
Re: Clinical trial on intermittent fasting
09-30-20 02:34 AM - Post#902936    



Interesting stuff.

My sense is that on its own, this really doesn't say much. It's a 12-week trial with small numbers in each arm and they didn't find a statistically significant difference. I haven't read closely, but it looks under-powered - but then I have no idea what is a reasonable effect size in a 12-week weight loss trial.

I guess in the fullness of time this will get pooled with other studies on time restricted eating, and an overall analysis will take place.

I also don't know enough about time restricted eating to know about how treatment and control were defined (I quoted below for someone smarter than me), but I wonder how this aligns with what people actually do when they intermittently fast:

"The study intervention only included recommendations to the timing of food intake (no recommendation for calorie and macronutrient intake or physical activity), and participants received daily reminders about their eating windows through the app. The CMT group was instructed to eat 3 structured meals per day. Snacking between meals was permitted. The TRE group was instructed to eat ad libitum from 12:00 pm until 8:00 pm and completely abstain from caloric intake from 8:00 pm until 12:00 pm the following day (16 hours fast:8 hours eat). "
 
Matt_T
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Total Posts: 379
09-30-20 03:04 AM - Post#902937    



I've done lean gains ish eating wise for years. Best nutritional change I've ever made. Berkhan is nothing but clear in his writing the calorie is king. Ad libitum eating is ad libitum eating.
 
iPood
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Total Posts: 2360
Re: Clinical trial on intermittent fasting
09-30-20 04:38 AM - Post#902940    



  • RupertC Said:
Research: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternal medicine/fullarticle/2771 095?guestAccessKey=444bbc b2-7e...

Twitter thread: https://twitter.com/ethanjweiss/status/13 10595463452614656

Conclusion from thread: "1) no matter how you slice it, prescription of TRE [time restricted eating] is not a very effective weight loss strategy; 2) There was no advantage to TRE when compared to a proper control group; 3) What weight was lost looked to come more from muscle mass than fat mass"



As they say over there: “gallinas que entran por las que salen”.
"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness
and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums.
It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable.
Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow.
Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't."

Dan Martin


 
RupertC
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Total Posts: 1479
Re: Clinical trial on intermittent fasting
09-30-20 04:42 AM - Post#902941    



  • iPood Said:
  • RupertC Said:
Research: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternal medicine/fullarticle/2771 095?guestAccessKey=444bbc b2-7e...

Twitter thread: https://twitter.com/ethanjweiss/status/13 10595463452614656

Conclusion from thread: "1) no matter how you slice it, prescription of TRE [time restricted eating] is not a very effective weight loss strategy; 2) There was no advantage to TRE when compared to a proper control group; 3) What weight was lost looked to come more from muscle mass than fat mass"



As they say over there: “gallinas que entran por las que salen”.




¡Cierto! For those who don't speak Spanish, it is roughly "one step back, two steps forward."
Check out my critical-thinking blog at sharpenyouraxe.substack.com


 
Leo M
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Total Posts: 357
09-30-20 08:30 AM - Post#902943    



One of the hypotheses of IF/TRE was that there is a benefit, ceteris paribus. In other words, controlling for nothing else, IF would still show a benefit. This study did not support that, and I think that is a valuable piece of data.

For me, and my clients, I'll still continue to practice it because I find many of us do see a net reduction in total caloric intake when our eating window is narrowed. Is that always the case? No. I have eaten 4,000 calories in 3-4 hours with out much difficulty if I've trained and fasted for 20 hours. IF is not a panacea, it's a tool in a tool kit. The same with keto, low carb, low fat, high carb, etc. There is likely a time and place for all of it depending on the individual.

Leo
ATC Fitness


 
BrianBinVA
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Total Posts: 5140
09-30-20 08:55 AM - Post#902945    



  • Leo M Said:
One of the hypotheses of IF/TRE was that there is a benefit, ceteris paribus. In other words, controlling for nothing else, IF would still show a benefit. This study did not support that, and I think that is a valuable piece of data.

For me, and my clients, I'll still continue to practice it because I find many of us do see a net reduction in total caloric intake when our eating window is narrowed. Is that always the case? No. I have eaten 4,000 calories in 3-4 hours with out much difficulty if I've trained and fasted for 20 hours. IF is not a panacea, it's a tool in a tool kit. The same with keto, low carb, low fat, high carb, etc. There is likely a time and place for all of it depending on the individual.

Leo



I think Leo is spot-on here. I've tried to personally (N=1) prove the hypothesis that IF *on its own* provides a benefit even if you keep calories constant, and have proven to my own satisfaction that at least for me, it does not.

The benefits are to be had, in my view, in terms of calorie reduction/restriction. In that way, IF "works" very well for people who have issues with portion control and/or controlling the quality of food they consume. Simply, if you skip a meal every day, you will usually lose weight unless you concentrate specifically on making up those missed calories later in the day, every day. And it is a lot easier for most people to say "don't eat breakfast" than it is to say either "don't eat x, y, z foods" or "only eat x, y, z foods."

Also, unless I'm mistaken, the LeanGains guy has admitted that he has and/or still does take a decent amount of drugs (testosterone mostly, I believe), so unless you are doing the same thing, I don't think what he says has much value for the un-drugged trainee.


 
Jordan D
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Total Posts: 771
09-30-20 09:02 AM - Post#902947    



Good to see the scientists are still 10-20 years behind.

Calories in/out.
Improved gut biome/digestion.
Pseudo-keto mental clarity.

Moving along.
 
RupertC
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Total Posts: 1479
09-30-20 10:11 AM - Post#902948    



Interesting discussion. I always thought that the main benefit of intermittent fasting was educational. You get some hunger pangs and then... Nothing happens! You drink a glass of water and get on with your day. You don't die or start to sob.

I see two main benefits of that lesson. First of all, if you are travelling, it is easy to skip a meal rather than eating over-priced airport food. You'll live. It doesn't matter. Secondly, it teaches you that there is no need to snack between meals ever.

I think not snacking is actually the killer app for nutrition. Did you know that just 3% of the population never snack?* Or that modern people snack much more than earlier generations?**

Of course, once you've learnt the lesson that a little hunger won't kill you, do you need to keep repeating it? Maybe not. Just focus on not snacking.

* https://foodinsight.org/snacking-on-the-rise- 2019-food-health-survey-r esults/

** https://www.ars.usda.gov/ARSUserFiles/80400530 /pdf/DBrief/4_adult_snack ing_0708.pdf
Check out my critical-thinking blog at sharpenyouraxe.substack.com


 
WxHerk
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Total Posts: 334
09-30-20 10:24 AM - Post#902949    



  • RupertC Said:

I see two main benefits of that lesson.

First of all, if you are travelling, it is easy to skip a meal rather than eating over-priced airport food. You'll live. It doesn't matter.

Secondly, it teaches you that there is no need to snack between meals ever.



Exactly!! After successfully intermittent fasting up to 69 hours (excessive, but some things you need to do and learn for yourself) I never again have eaten garbage due to believing that I had to eat something or perish.

No, no need to snack at all. You will, indeed, live and live leaner!!
Just my 2¢


 
Dan John
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Total Posts: 12292
09-30-20 10:26 AM - Post#902950    



Rupert...exactly what I discovered, too.
Daniel John
Just handing down what I was handed down...


Make a Difference.
Live. Love. Laugh.
Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude)
Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk.
Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth.
Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights.
Reread great books. Say thank you


 
Jordan Derksen
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Total Posts: 392
09-30-20 10:32 AM - Post#902951    



RupertC, 100% agree.

When I was a CF coach (there goes my credibility...) I never got into all the diet madness. Keto, paleo, whatever. Hey if you want to try it go for it. But the only real diet is a lifestyle that is sustainable. Crash dieting is only required to fix a problem short term, and even then it's not a long term solution.

Every time my main thing I always hammered on was snacking. It was hard convincing people to eat more at mealtimes to ultimately avoid the snacking. But for the few that tried it the results were great. Instead of starving yourself at mealtime (how most diets go), get that extra 2-300 calories (from whole food - not extra desert) or whatever it is you need, and you can avoid the 600 calorie snacks between all your meals and at night. Those numbers might be a bit exaggerated but the premise is solid, and has often led to results. Plus, it's sustainable because the diet isn't built around a concept of complete elimination or starvation, rather moderation.

Nothing wrong with 3 solid meals a day.

I wonder sometimes if the compounding factor in lots of IF is that because of the eating 'window' the typical snack times are forced out. Donuts and sweets in the morning (most breakfasts and morning snacks are atrocious), and late night snacking seem to be the most common snack times.


 
Matt_T
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Total Posts: 379
09-30-20 10:59 AM - Post#902952    



Not seen him say that but I don't generally follow MB for the training side as his RPT methods don't accord with athletic goals particularly (although a great way to train for strength on a caloric deficit if all you want to do is hang on to muscle mass). I say that as a 100% card carrying natty.

On nutrition I'm not sure he can be tarred by whatever supplements he does or doesn't take in the context of this discussion, he basically left IF as an appendix in his own book because there isn't enough data to say it does or doesn't work. I've conversed with him directly on line and he's very clear that calories in/out is all that matters and while IF helps with hitting that total if you can't eat like a grown up nothing works. Basically what the study concluded and others have said above.
 
Matt_T
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Total Posts: 379
09-30-20 11:03 AM - Post#902953    



  • Jordan Derksen Said:
RupertC, 100% agree.

When I was a CF coach (there goes my credibility...) I never got into all the diet madness. Keto, paleo, whatever. Hey if you want to try it go for it. But the only real diet is a lifestyle that is sustainable. Crash dieting is only required to fix a problem short term, and even then it's not a long term solution.

Every time my main thing I always hammered on was snacking. It was hard convincing people to eat more at mealtimes to ultimately avoid the snacking. But for the few that tried it the results were great. Instead of starving yourself at mealtime (how most diets go), get that extra 2-300 calories (from whole food - not extra desert) or whatever it is you need, and you can avoid the 600 calorie snacks between all your meals and at night. Those numbers might be a bit exaggerated but the premise is solid, and has often led to results. Plus, it's sustainable because the diet isn't built around a concept of complete elimination or starvation, rather moderation.

Nothing wrong with 3 solid meals a day.

I wonder sometimes if the compounding factor in lots of IF is that because of the eating 'window' the typical snack times are forced out. Donuts and sweets in the morning (most breakfasts and morning snacks are atrocious), and late night snacking seem to be the most common snack times.



Totally agree. All breakfast ever did was make me hungrier.
 
DanMartin
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Total Posts: 20705
09-30-20 12:14 PM - Post#902955    



In the olden days IF was no more than the typical mother's warning of "don't eat between meals." YMMV
Mark it Zero.


 
Jordan D
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Total Posts: 771
09-30-20 12:29 PM - Post#902958    



  • DanMartin Said:
In the olden days IF was no more than the typical mother's warning of "don't eat between meals." YMMV



Or simply known as “skipping breakfast,” which was the advice of the medieval church, 1,200 years ago, to all members who weren’t heavy laborers.
 
Old Miler
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Total Posts: 1744
09-30-20 04:29 PM - Post#902969    



Matt Fitzgerald's books "Racing Weight" and "the endurance diet" made a couple of points:
1. It's probably all about the calories
2. Telling people "it's all about the calories" doesn't help.

For me, IF is quite an effective way to control my own mind and snack less for a good chunk of the day. If I skip breakfast, run to work about noon, then make sure I eat soup and a roll for lunch, then on balance, whatever I do in the evening I'm pretty sure to manage a deficit for the day.
 
DanMartin
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Total Posts: 20705
09-30-20 05:01 PM - Post#902970    



When in doubt, shut your pie hole.
Mark it Zero.


 
davidcc
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Total Posts: 56
09-30-20 05:55 PM - Post#902971    



  • DanMartin Said:
When in doubt, shut your pie hole.



Words to live by...and not just where eating is concerned.
 
BrianN
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Total Posts: 297
10-01-20 08:07 AM - Post#902986    



Ruperts observations are gold and I’ve had the same experiences, but,

That lifestyle only works for those beyond blood sugar issues. I have carb addicted loved ones that can’t imagine skipping meals or snacks and they feel it.
"So shines a good deed in a weary world."


 
Matt_T
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Total Posts: 379
10-01-20 09:05 AM - Post#902988    



  • BrianN Said:
Ruperts observations are gold and I’ve had the same experiences, but,

That lifestyle only works for those beyond blood sugar issues. I have carb addicted loved ones that can’t imagine skipping meals or snacks and they feel it.



I reckon a photo of my breakfast plate(s) pre-IF would be enough to cause blood sugar issues. It's the only thing that ever worked for me keeping levels of that particular macronutrient consumption under control.
 
BChase
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Total Posts: 854
10-01-20 09:10 AM - Post#902990    



Did a 37 hour fast, on Monday.

It's tough and takes practice. For me, it just a great way to clean out your system. It is uncomfortable. But I've been getting too comfy with my caloric intake.

It's a way to cut weekly calories as long as you don't go wild, the next day.

I would rather abstain than moderate.

 
Dan John
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Total Posts: 12292
10-01-20 09:31 AM - Post#902991    



So, I "believe" in IF and gut biome stuff (sauerkraut et al). When I see research that goes against my experience, I just look at the numbers...my numbers first. BDWT down, yet freely eating (within reason), BP down, HR waaay down, lots of other good things in life "up." (Ha!)

Then, I look at the studies. Studies with 20-30 people, often less, without any restrictions on cardboard carbs just don't turn the needle for me.

Moreover, I don't IF to lose weight (although it happens). I do it for longevity, health, and fitness.

I can't explain it as well as Devany or Wolf, but I do think that the body under IF has a chance to do basic autophagy and makes the brain use other sources of fuel. I'm not afraid of things like dementia as my family tends not to live long, but IF is, according to what I read, the best protection we can use.

Marty Gallagher is coming out with a great article on "Survivor" eating. I think his list of rules is going to be probably as simple and true as anything we will do.
Daniel John
Just handing down what I was handed down...


Make a Difference.
Live. Love. Laugh.
Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude)
Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk.
Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth.
Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights.
Reread great books. Say thank you


 
BChase
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Total Posts: 854
10-01-20 09:40 AM - Post#902995    



When my brother had his colonscopy, he had mentioned to the gastrointestinal specialist that he fasted for 24 hours 1 x a week. The Doctor's quote was: "If everyone did that, we'd wouldn't have as many issues with patients."

See it as "healing" vs. weight loss
 
Dan John
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Total Posts: 12292
10-01-20 10:02 AM - Post#902998    



I think the Fasting and Biome work has done more for my actual health than anything else.

I was at the dentist yesterday (I go three times a year...usually the same basic week that I do Power Red) and Doc Spangler told me he has "enjoyed" seeing my health improve during our years together.

Of course, not being in chronic pain is nice, too.
Daniel John
Just handing down what I was handed down...


Make a Difference.
Live. Love. Laugh.
Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude)
Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk.
Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth.
Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights.
Reread great books. Say thank you


 
iPood
*
Total Posts: 2360
10-01-20 10:29 AM - Post#903001    



I don’t find fasting particularly difficult. It’s a bit uncomfortable during the first 8 to 12 hours, but then it becomes suddenly easy.

Curiously enough, I find WAY harder to quit eating when you are 80% full than fasting a whole 48 hours.
"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness
and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums.
It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable.
Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow.
Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't."

Dan Martin


 
DanMartin
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Total Posts: 20705
10-01-20 12:54 PM - Post#903007    



Just don't go Bobby Sands...
Mark it Zero.


 
BChase
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Total Posts: 854
10-01-20 01:22 PM - Post#903010    



  • DanMartin Said:
Just don't go Bobby Sands...



No hunger strikes, I never do more than 40. 36-40 seems to be the sweet spot.

For me it is a test around 11 AM, then 5-7. Once I get past 7 PM, I'm home free.
 
CarlosH
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Total Posts: 5
10-01-20 01:41 PM - Post#903012    



For a comprehensive review of the current science on Intermittent Fasting, here is a link to an article in the December 2019 New England Journal of Medicine. It presents a very positive view of IF.

Effects of Intermittent Fasting on Health, Aging, and Disease by Rafael de Cabo, Ph.D., and Mark P. Mattson, Ph.D.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMra1905136?query= recirc_curatedRelated_art icle

It's behind a paywall, but I got I copy of from my local library. You can also register on the site for a free copy. (I have a hard copy pdf,but I wasn't sure if I'm allowed to post it, but if I am, I'd be happy to.)
 
Browser
*
Total Posts: 507
10-01-20 02:02 PM - Post#903013    



  • RupertC Said:

I think not snacking is actually the killer app for nutrition. Did you know that just 3% of the population never snack?* Or that modern people snack much more than earlier generations?**

Of course, once you've learnt the lesson that a little hunger won't kill you, do you need to keep repeating it? Maybe not. Just focus on not snacking.





This was how I lost some weight without really trying a few years ago. Three meals, no snacks, and no second helpings were my only rules. It worked so well that I actually started to hate snacking. Eating anything between the three main meals made me feel like crap. When I decided to try powerlifting and needed more calories, I added a 4th meal between lunch and dinner and I had to force it down, sometimes literally gagging, and I had constant indigestion. My lifts went way up though. When the pandemic shut down all the meets I decided it was time to park bench it for a while and lose some weight. All I did was cut out the 4th meal. Feel better, look better, digestion is way better. I'm just weak as crap now.
"The trouble about always trying to preserve the health of the body is that it is so difficult to do without destroying the health of the mind."~GK Chesterton


 
Neander
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Total Posts: 7755
10-01-20 02:53 PM - Post#903014    



  • Quoting:
Just don't go Bobby Sands...



Most definitely don't go with the Blanket Men's Dirty Protest.
There, that oughta make it easier to not eat for a while.
Life's too short to worry about longevity.



 
DanMartin
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Total Posts: 20705
10-01-20 03:20 PM - Post#903017    



  • Neander Said:
  • Quoting:
Just don't go Bobby Sands...



Most definitely don't go with the Blanket Men's Dirty Protest.
There, that oughta make it easier to not eat for a while.




The Maze was nowhere.
Mark it Zero.


 
read the bread book
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Total Posts: 92
Clinical trial on intermittent fasting
10-01-20 04:47 PM - Post#903021    



As some others have said, I find fasting much easier than just not knowing when I'm going to eat; if I'm not expecting to eat managing the sensation of hunger is very very easy.

I also don't understand why everyone has to act like there's no way to get good data on this. millions and millions (high hundreds of millions now, actually) of people have been doing a version of IF for a month once a year for about 1200 years.

let me see if I can dig up that old study on rugby players... If I'm remembering correctly the findings were less bodyfat no muscle loss.

Edited by read the bread book on 10-01-20 04:48 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
 
Jordan D
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Total Posts: 771
Re: Clinical trial on intermittent fasting
10-01-20 06:49 PM - Post#903025    



  • read the bread book Said:


I also don't understand why everyone has to act like there's no way to get good data on this. millions and millions (high hundreds of millions now, actually) of people have been doing a version of IF for a month once a year for about 1200 years.




Exactly. Good grief.

This is the abject failure of “science” as a sprawling, corrupted industry. It’s taught people that phenomenology doesn’t matter. If the universities haven’t proven it’s true in a lab, it’s not to be trusted.

Dan’s description above is all anyone ever needs to know about fasting. Everything else is just navel-gazing, I say.
 
DanMartin
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Total Posts: 20705
10-02-20 09:09 AM - Post#903033    



Just to be clear, I believe there is value in IF but, I also believe that the value lies within skipping dinner rather than breakfast. YMMV
Mark it Zero.


 
BrianBinVA
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Total Posts: 5140
10-02-20 09:42 AM - Post#903034    



Breakfast like a king, lunch like a prince, dine like a pauper.

Or eat your breakfast, share your lunch with a fried, and give your dinner to your enemy.


 
Dan John
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Total Posts: 12292
10-02-20 09:56 AM - Post#903036    



Once I basically decided that as an older man, my metabolism was slowing. I slid to basically two meals a day with those two "gut biome" breaks.

I'm hungry as I type this, but I figure I will be working out in an hour and a half. After that, I will eat a veggie eggs benedict with ten different veggies.

If I eat now, I often pay the price squatting. So...mild fast...long term "better."

Moreover, by not constantly dripping sugar in my system, the smart people say I am putting up a wall against brain issues and doing some deep self cleaning.

It's just a better way for me to do it.
Daniel John
Just handing down what I was handed down...


Make a Difference.
Live. Love. Laugh.
Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude)
Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk.
Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth.
Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights.
Reread great books. Say thank you


 
Old Miler
*
Total Posts: 1744
10-02-20 05:55 PM - Post#903051    



Not-bad meta-study for those who like studies...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC42745 78/

I have often been in the Muslim world during Ramadan. The vast majority who fast during the day are deliberately setting out to over-consume each night in a kind of "feast/party" mode.

Separate to the food issue, they are off water all day (which I believe is not sensible from the purely medical point of view), not smoking (which is good, people do that a lot where I go) and off the booze (which is good).

Doing Ramadan is a bit different to what you would do if you set out to do IF for a month for health purposes. Despite this, health benefits are claimed by most who participate.
 
Dan John
*
Total Posts: 12292
10-02-20 06:23 PM - Post#903056    



In one of my Religious Studies textbooks, no idea which one, the blood profiles after Ramadan are strikingly better.

It makes sense. 12 hours of not pushing glucose has to have some adaptions.

Some of my best memories are Cairo nights during Ramadan.
Daniel John
Just handing down what I was handed down...


Make a Difference.
Live. Love. Laugh.
Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude)
Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk.
Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth.
Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights.
Reread great books. Say thank you


 
tom6112
*
Total Posts: 846
10-03-20 12:00 AM - Post#903067    



I will do one day on the weekend not eating till about 1 pm.
But I can’t do it if I am doing physical work
 
iPood
*
Total Posts: 2360
10-03-20 08:31 AM - Post#903074    



I’m increasingly curiouser and curiouser about fasting a whole 24 hours a week.

Is it better than IFing on a daily basis? If so, why? If not, why?
"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness
and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums.
It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable.
Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow.
Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't."

Dan Martin


 
Jordan D
*
Total Posts: 771
10-03-20 09:01 AM - Post#903076    



I’ve skipped morning breakfast for, oh, a decade? And have done once weekly 24-hour fasts for a period of months. No lab reports. And no opinions really. Both are easy. IF-style makes me feel better and operate with more mental energy/clarity throughout the week.

Neither are as good for digestion, I think, as my biannual 24- or 48-hour raw vegetable-only weekend. Talk about cleaning out the pipes.
 
Matt_T
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Total Posts: 379
10-03-20 05:31 PM - Post#903093    



  • iPood Said:
I’m increasingly curiouser and curiouser about fasting a whole 24 hours a week.

Is it better than IFing on a daily basis? If so, why? If not, why?



24 hours better for fat loss, skipping breakfast better to fit around training was my take home.
 
D Berta
*
Total Posts: 141
Clinical trial on intermittent fasting
10-04-20 07:28 AM - Post#903100    



To me the two biggest values in controlling eating time are knowing you can go without a meal and not tipping your body off that it’s time to eat until later in the day.

Before trying intermittent fasting, I was in a habit of eating whenever I woke up. The big issue being as I got up earlier, I started getting hungrier for lunch earlier. Eating right after an early wake up, resulted in bigger urges to eat all my meals earlier which led to more snack and over eating.

When I tried an 18/6 fast cycle, I found I could learn not to be hungry all day. That said it didn’t add much to fat control and resulted in some weird stress that manifested in other problems. I ate plenty in the 6 hours and felt worse overall.

Currently most days I try to not take breakfast until 12 hours after dinner. This seems to help with overall eating volume, if I eat mid-morning, it sets me ip with a good meal pattern.

Once a week I fast dinner to dinner. I like to know I can still hold off eating without destroying myself. I like the idea of a cheat day once a week and will frequently have a pretty early breakfast on those days.

Anyway, I think that there’s no big benefit to one meal a day, however restricting oneself most days is great for the mental aspects of controlling hunger. Personally eating breakfast tends to make my body expect lunch so many hours after, so delaying breakfast helps delay all those hunger pangs.

Edited by D Berta on 10-04-20 07:28 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
 
GeoffreyLevens
*
Total Posts: 357
10-04-20 09:54 AM - Post#903104    



  • tom6112 Said:
I will do one day on the weekend not eating till about 1 pm.
But I can’t do it if I am doing physical work


  • Matt_T Said:
24 hours better for fat loss, skipping breakfast better to fit around training was my take home.


The only reason for skipping breakfast as the IF m.o. is the social aspect of dinner which is generally absent in the morning. I do NOT do well skipping breakfast and indeed, the research data (you can easily find it) is overwhelmingly in favor of skipping dinner instead. Eat breakfast and lunch, skip dinner and you will sleep better, wake up fresher, and fuel your day better. Also, much more favorable for blood glucose and weight loss.

There's lots more if you search this site and all extensively footnoted w/ cited research:
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/is-skipping-bre akfast-better-for-weight- loss/
"Just to give you a taste, the exact same number of calories at breakfast are significantly less fattening than the same number of calories eaten at supper. What?! That’s just mind-blowing. A diet with a bigger breakfast causes more weight loss than the same diet with a bigger dinner. Because of our circadian rhythms, morning calories don’t appear to count as much as evening calories. So, maybe breakfast should indeed be the most important meal of the day after all."
 
Dan John
*
Total Posts: 12292
10-04-20 01:18 PM - Post#903111    



This, by Nick Horton, is still my favorite "Do This" approach to IF:


Intermittent Fasting, The Vodka Diet, OR How I Got Skinny For My Wedding Like a Real Man
Posted by Nick Horton |

Call me girly, but I had no intentions of being fat at my wedding.

Unfortunately, with only a few months to go, that was exactly the situation I was facing. I needed to take drastic measures, measures most will find insane. And, because of my experimental personality, I took them! Lo and behold, it worked! I dropped a total of 25 pounds, and I’m now leaner than I’ve been in over 3 years. What was my solution? Drink more Vodka and Mocha’s; eat more Burgers and Bacon; and pay as little attention to detail as possible!

The fact that I ended up with this much fat to lose would shock anyone who’s known me for most of my life. I am not someone who grew up a chubby kid, I was always skinny as a rail. I also didn’t have the (all-too-common) situation where over a decade or two of adult life I slowly and almost inexplicably gained weight to the point where I didn’t recognize myself. Oh no, my friends. Until a few years ago, I was lean. Really lean.
So, how did I get fat? Wait for it …

I made myself fat on purpose!

Before I explain WHY I made myself fat, I want to be clear that I was fat … for a weightlifter who has spent 20 years gaining muscle. I recognize that while my bodyfat percentage was higher than healthy, it was not where many people start who are really struggling with weight. I’m sensitive to the fact that my situation does NOT represent many Americans. That said, I was fatter than I should have been, and my health numbers were not looking as nice as they once did. It was time for a change.
The reason I’m writing this is because the change was both fast and dramatic. Combining that with the fact that it honestly wasn’t that hard for me to get lean again makes the story compelling. I really hope that my story can help others who decide that losing some unwanted fat is priority #1. So long as they are willing to pay the price – everything in life has a price, everything – then making dramatic changes really is possible.

The Set Up: Strain to Gain

When I turned 30, I decided to experiment and see how big and strong I could get if I gave up on my waist line. Again, for the sake of clarity, when I say that I got fat on purpose, that’s a bit misleading. I got BIG on purpose. The fat was something I knew that I couldn’t avoid if I was going to take my experiment as far as I wanted to. And, given my proclivities toward self-experimentation, going “all out” was the only option.
I was always a small kid. Very short, and very skinny. Now, I’ve never had a problem with being short. In fact, I’ve always liked that fact about me. You know those people who hit their heads going down stairs to the basement? I’ve never done that. It would be impossible.

Most males grow taller throughout high school. Some even get taller through their first years of college. Not me. I entered high school at the same towering height that I am now, 5 feet 6 inches (with shoes on). The summer between my 8th grade year and my freshman year of high school contained the last growth spurt this giant of a man ever had.

That was always fine by me. But, being skinny was not OK.

Unfortunately, when I was a beginning my freshman year I only weighed 115 pounds – I was very skinny. But, through much work and endless amounts of food, I was able to graduate high school weighing a staggering 128 pounds. I worked hard for those 13 pounds. However, my abysmal rate of progress was indicative of my total lack of knowledge about what it was that I was doing! Cookie dough is not ideal as a weightlifting food. And doing nothing but upper body bodybuilding is NOT the way to massive muscular weight.

By the time I turned 30, I’d wised up about how I trained and how I ate. I had built myself up to 160 pounds, I was strong, and I was pretty happy with how I looked.
During my 20’s I’d competed as a Powerlifter at 145 pounds and topped out with a best squat of 450, deadlift 500, and Bench Press of 360. All raw, no suit, no belt, no nothin’. I was most proud of the deadlift, as that was over 3 times my bodyweight on a lift that you just can’t cheat.

The point being that during my 20’s I was lean and strong. I liked the way I looked and I was rather happy with where I’d brought myself up to that point. But, I was still curious about my upper limits.

I’d begun Olympic Weightlifting a few years previous and was already coaching a competitive club at the time. I was NOT anywhere near as good at Olympic lifting as I was at Powerlifting. Powerlifting favors guys who are brute strong, especially if you are brute strong for your weight. Brute strength is something I’ve got.

Oly lifting requires that you spend years upon years honing technique so that you can apply your strength. I was still in the “honing” phase. (I still am!)

But, I felt like I’d topped out just how big I was going to get while maintaining the same level of leanness that I’d always had. My entire life, I’d been so lean that you could see veins popping out of my chest, my oblique’s had striations, I looked like I was a month out of a bodybuilding contest at all times.
I decided it was time for that to change. If I was going to get stronger, I would have to get bigger. If I was going to get bigger, I was going to have to get fatter.

Once I made that choice, I did what I do when I make any choice: I went all out. I started eating about 5000 calories a day. I ate everything. Pie, McDonalds, Bacon, Pizza, Ice Cream. I ate it all, everyday, all day. My only concern every day was if I had eaten enough to fuel my workouts to keep me growing.

I succeeded. For a few years running I gained 20 pounds a year. And while I did gain fat, the rate of fat gain wasn’t that bad considering the debaucherous food I was consuming! My strength was finally going up again, as well.

When I’d started Olympic lifting I found out something that was quite humbling. Just because you can powerlifting-squat a certain weight – wide legs, bent over like you’re doing a goodmorning, at (but not below) parallel – doesn’t mean that you will be able to Oly squat anywhere near that. Worse, you may only be able to front squat the bar. And because I had spent years doing bench presses and curls, my wrists were so tight, I couldn’t rack a front squat to save my life!!

I became determined to be a great front squatter – this was going to become MY lift.
I’d started focusing pretty strongly on the front squat once I discovered this (a few years prior), but it hadn’t been going up at the rate I’d hoped. (Much of the reason was that my programming sucked. Read this years birthday post to get a feel about my current thoughts on that subject.) But, after a year of some serious bulking I’d built my front squat up to 120, then 130, then 135 kilos.

By two years in, my front squat was 145 kilos, and I’d built my body up to a bulky 93 kilos. Trust me, when you are barely 5’6’’ and you weigh 205 pounds of mostly muscle and some fat, you look like a tank – you ain’t as shapely as Arnold!

Suddenly, finding clothes that fit went from hard to impossible. I stopped dressing in the more “stylish” ways I was used to (to the chagrin of my now Wife), and wore the classic jock attire exclusively: T-shirts, Hoodies, overly baggy jeans or workout pants – or kilts, of course. (Seriously, my wife loves the weightlifting and the muscle. But, she said on more than a few occasions that she “didn’t sign on for some jock dude”.)

My wife is nice and contends that I didn’t look that bad. Objectively, I know she was right. I wasn’t even that fat! But, we both like me better now that I’m back down to something approaching my previous leanness. I was starting to teeter on the line of having an unreasonable amount of fat, given my muscle mass at the time, and going over the edge. One more year like that, and it would have gone too far.

After that 2 year period of unabashed eating, I decided to drop some weight. I dropped down to about 195 pounds.
This brings us up to the “a few months before my wedding” part of the story. I was still not lean. I couldn’t see my abs (I had one, maybe two), and because of a messed-up quirk in my genetics where my face carries the majority of my fat, my head still looked like a pumpkin!

The problem was that I hate to diet, and yet I only had a few months to get down to being truly lean again.

Intermittent Fasting to the Rescue!

Lucky for me, about this time I discovered two guys simultaneously: Martin Berkhan and Brad Pillon. Both of them are the primary proponents of what has come to be termed “Intermittent Fasting”. I’m not going to go into all the details of what that means since they’ve done a much better job of explaining it than I could. But, the basics are this: When you eat, you can eat; Otherwise, don’t eat. Simple!

There is a fundamental reality to losing fat that people seem unable to accept fully. If you want to lose fat, you MUST take in fewer calories that you burn. Period. There is no other way. I don’t care what you heard on Nightline or read in Newsweek.

Most diets proscribe what you can and can’t eat. This food is good, that food is bad. I have never done well with the idea of restricting my choices when it comes to food. I like food – all food (except potatoes, which is its own story).

The second problem with most diets is that you are asked to eat smaller meals. If you are going to restrict calories, then in order to eat 3, 4, up to 6+ meals a day, they will have to be small if you’re going to stay under your allotment. Screw that!

My Cardinal Rule of Dieting:
When I eat, I don’t want to care about my diet!!

I like to eat. When I sit down to eat, I don’t want to be restricted in either my options or portions. This is why I gravitated so comfortably to the idea of fasting.
Fasting is not a “diet”. It is more of a lifestyle choice that just happens to work like a diet.

I did it in 2 phases that each (somewhat, though not totally) represent the versions of Intermittent Fasting that each of the 2 guys above (Martin and Brad) promote most strongly.

Phase 1: Mellow and Slow and Still Gaining Strength!

I ended up hitting a 155k Front Squat PR while I was in the middle of a “diet”! I also went from barely hitting 90k snatches to power snatching it multiple times a week, and hitting a new PR of 95k! Not bad for being calorie restricted.

For about 3 months I followed the basic tenet of Berkan’s fasting system and gave myself a “feeding window” every day where I got to eat. And at any other time, I didn’t eat.

(His system calls for an 8-hour window, I did 10 or more. With twice a day training like I was doing, 8 wasn’t practical – read below for more details.)

During this window, I would try to get in all my protein, veggies, and other needed stuff for the day. I didn’t try hard, and I didn’t count calories. But, I slowly dropped from 195 pounds to 186 pounds over the course of 3 months and was noticeably leaner all the while gaining strength.

Seriously, my diet was not complicated. Here was how I worked it around my workout schedule – which was also its own crazy experiment.

To be fair, my workout schedule included up to 13 sessions a week, all to max on Oly lifts and/or squats, so you might be inclined to think that it was this that spurned the fatloss. But, keep in mind that I was working out similarly prior to the fasting protocol and I was NOT getting leaner until I added the fasting.

Monday/Wednesday – Not really fasting, just skip breakfast
6am – wake up.
No breakfast.
10am – workout: Front squat + Snatch to 1RM (1 rep max)
Chocolate milk
Lunch – usually a sandwich or something similar, even pizza.
2pm – workout: Same
2nd lunch – similar
Evening – workout again: snatch and back squat to max, sometimes throw in clean and jerk.
chocolate milk and something small for dinner.
No eating after 10pm

Tuesday/Thursday – 14 hour fast
6am – wake up
10am – workout: front squat to max – just water
12pm – lunch, AKA break-fast
Evening – workout: power versions and front squats to max
Dinner – stop eating by 10.

Friday – longer fast
6am – wake up
Don’t eat all day till …
4 or 5 pm - Workout: Max on Oly lifts and Back Squats. Drink Gatorade and a Mocha during workout.
Dinner – stop eating by 10.

Saturday
6am – wake up
11am – workout: Front or Back squats, maybe RDL’s, some power versions … it changed a lot. Drink gatorade during + a mocha
3pm – lunch.
Stop eating at 10.

Sunday
Workout: Sometime during the day come in and back squat to a max with a few back off sets.
Eat whatever. Day off from dieting.

That’s it. I didn’t think too hard about it. I didn’t count calories. I didn’t even follow the rules very hard. I was able to train between 9 and 13 sessions a week, get stronger, and stay on a weekly calorie deficit without making myself crazy. All plusses!!

The ONLY downside was that it was a slow process, and my wedding was fast approaching!
I needed to get drastic.

Phase 2: Fast and Crazy

I had just over 4 weeks. I decided to experiment yet again. (I am very prone to experimenting on myself, if you can’t tell!) This time, I was going to start doing 24 hour fasts. Brad Pilon suggests 1, 2, or even 3 fasts a week that are 24-hours (eat dinner the night before, then don’t eat again until your next dinner). Even at just one time a week you can easily drop your weekly calorie count by 2000 calories. (If you eat like me!)
Well … if it works with just 1 or 2 fasts a week, what about 5?

Crazy? Yes! But, I figured I ate myself fat without any regard to health for the sole purpose of putting on muscle and strength, so I might as well see what happens if I do the opposite: lose fat fast without any regard for my strength or muscle.

Again, I succeeded. I was losing fat so fast that it was noticeable almost from day to day. Each week, the difference was dramatic. In just a touch over a month, I lost 15 pounds! And, from what I can tell, most of that was fat.
Now … not all of it was fat! I’ve clearly lost some muscle, as my strength levels went down. But, I expected that. What I wanted was extreme fatloss, no matter what. And I got it.

What about working out?

That was the hard part. The truth is, if you are only eating one meal a day for most of the week, then there is no way you can work out very hard unless that meal is huge. But, making that meal giant and full of protein and all my essential nutrients, blah blah blah, would have resulted in too many calories. I wanted extremely fast fatloss. That required abysmally low calories.

Just as importantly, eating all that food in one meal would have broken my cardinal rule: When I eat, I don’t want to care!

Nearly every night, I’d go out to dinner. I’d drink vodka with that dinner, or beer, or whatever I wanted. I ate burgers, steak, tater tots, dessert, whatever. It didn’t matter. This was the only thing I was eating all day. I regularly would clock in under 1200 calories on these days. Let’s face it, a burger, a few fries, and some vodka just isn’t that many calories when it is all you’ve eaten today.

But, the problem was that I would only be getting about 20 to 60 grams of protein a day, some carbs and fat. That’s it. Not at all conducive to building strength, or even maintaining it.

My goal was to create a massive deficit, and still feel like I got to be normal for at least one meal a day. That is what I got.

I started out with good intentions, mind you! My plan was to do the 24-hour fasts 5 days a week, and then on 2 days a week, I’d do 8 hour fasts. On those 2 days, I’d workout. That lasted about 2 weeks before I realized how impossible that was. My weekly calorie count was so low, that any serious exercise was out of the question. So, what the hell. Why not push it harder!

For that last 2 weeks, on the 24-hour days, I decided to limit myself to 800 calories a day.

Yep. 800 calories a day! And as wild and downright stupid as that sounds, I am sooo glad I did it!

Surprising Revelations

At this point you may be writing me off as a psycho. Before I did this experiment, I’d have done the same thing. But, I’m the kind of guy who will try something (and really give it a go) before I lay out the harsh judgment from up on high.

Here are some of the more interesting things I discovered:
• Even though a real “workout” was not going to happen, I was surprisingly alert, happy, and energetic all day while fasting like a maniac.
• I lost strength, but not as much as I’d have thought. (Read my new plan below for details on that front.)
• I NEVER suffered. I honestly didn’t feel like I was dieting at all. I just didn’t eat for most of the day. (I did drink a ton of coffee … but that is totally normal for me!) And, when I did eat, I was able to join in with my friends, eat fun food, drink “adult” drinks, and not care.
• While not eating all day was hard at first, I was shocked how fast I adapted. If your body starts to get the point that it isn’t getting food until the evening, it will largely stop whining about it.
• I started to look “younger”. On a ton of occasions, people told me how much younger I looked. Some of this is attributable to the leaning out of my face. But, apparently I’m not alone among fasters. When you fast, your body releases growth hormone at a rate this is higher than normal. Growth hormone plays a role in making your skin and hair look youthful. It is at least possible that this happened to some degree here given the extreme nature of my fasting protocol.

And many more. Seriously, read the stuff written by Martin Berkhan and Brad Pilon. I’m only one case study, but my results corroborate much of what they are saying.

Conclusions and My New Plan

I’m not done. I’m still fasting. But, I’m back on a plan that more closely resembles Phase One, above. I’m lifting 5 days a week for at least 2 or 3 hours a pop, and things are looking up.

But, the one downside is that I got what I asked for: A lean body at the expense of some of my hard earned strength!

My two favorite lifts are the Snatch and the Front Squat, so I’ll continue focusing on those. Before I started my Phase Two, I hit a PR snatch of 95k, and a PR Front Squat of 155k at a bodyweight of about 85k. Today I weighed in at 76k (roughly 167 pounds), and I snatched 90k on Monday. Solid. I lost just under 20 pounds, and my snatch is almost what it was when I was bigger. That is great!

But, … my Front Squat is still down by 20 kilos. I haven’t done over 135 yet since I have gotten back on the horse. This hurts me! The Front Squat is my favorite lift of all time. Hot diggity I love Front Squats. I starting off with the Front Squat as my WORST lift, to making it my best. That is something I was quite proud of!

New Goals: By this time next year, I’d like to still be in this weight class (the 77k class), hit a 105 or 110 kilo snatch and do a 182k (400#) front squat. That’s a tall order. I may not hit the numbers I want, but they provide me with some solid goals to shoot for.

I’ll keep you updated, as usual. And, I’ll make sure to do another post in a few months on my progress using this “diet” system in conjunction with an Olympic lifters training schedule.


Daniel John
Just handing down what I was handed down...


Make a Difference.
Live. Love. Laugh.
Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude)
Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk.
Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth.
Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights.
Reread great books. Say thank you


 
Neander
*
Total Posts: 7755
Clinical trial on intermittent fasting
10-04-20 03:00 PM - Post#903116    



  • Quoting:
That’s it. I didn’t think too hard about it.



There's an awful lot to love about Nick Horton.

Fasting can give you a real nice reset too. If you've ever gotten a little too used to eating a lot when you're trying to gain strength and add some muscle, a month of so of waiting to eat till later every day can give you back your appreciation of food and the joy of eating it.

Maybe, depending who you are, it's a good thing at the right times.
Possibly.
Depending.
On an awful lot of factors and schtuff.

Hahaha! Labcoats! The white labcoat lot.
Life's too short to worry about longevity.





Edited by Neander on 10-04-20 03:05 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
 
Pepper
*
Total Posts: 296
10-04-20 04:07 PM - Post#903117    



Nick Horton -- Does anybody know what happened to him? I really enjoyed reading his articles years back and haven't seen him around much in the last year or so. Thanks!
 
BChase
*
Total Posts: 854
Clinical trial on intermittent fasting
10-06-20 12:11 PM - Post#903164    



Finished a 38.5 hour fast this AM. Felt great. Drank almost a gallon of water. Second week in a row.

I'm glad I'm doing it again. Got lazy and gained weight. Every Monday for the foreseeable future. It's like a muscle that you need to exercise.



Edited by BChase on 10-06-20 12:11 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
 
Jason J
*
Total Posts: 33
10-06-20 01:31 PM - Post#903169    



I did a 34 hour fast yesterday, surprisingly not that hungry this morning. It's a good exercise to teach you that you don't have to eat. I've been letting things slide too much lately.
 
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