camaro hair
Total Posts: 60
|
09-24-20 12:40 PM - Post#902740
I'm just curious how many people have knowledge about this stuff, and maybe what Dan's thoughts are.
There seems to be a lot of "mystique" based on exactly HOW it is programmed, but it seems like heavy kettlebell snatches for many sets of 5 is the norm.
From what I've read, the benefits are very positive for aging people like myself.
On another forum, that particular exercise and this style of training have gained a ton of popularity, but my shoulder doesn't like overhead ballistics much.
My real question is applying the concept to swings. Does anyone have experience?
|
Barna
Total Posts: 146
|
There is a program by Pavel and Ciampa using swings for A+A type work here:
The Hybrid Power Conditioning Program.
You might check that out for ideas.
Personally, I would look at other people's results with this (which may be good) rather than all the science. As I understand, it is a bit wishy-washy on this subject.
|
WxHerk
Total Posts: 334
|
I've been A &A snatching for several months. Anywhere from 40~50 repeats of 5 snatches in an hour or a little more. It can provide a lot of volume that doesn't beat you up as much. Al Ciampa, a personal friend, developed A &A but he doesn't do as much with that other site anymore.
Yes, you can definitely do A &A with swings. The important part is spiking your heartrate and then dropping it.
I turned 57 the other day and "celebrated" by snatching the 24kg for 114 reps (double my age). It was a handful, but doable. A &A has definitely kept my aerobic capacity from dropping like it would have over the past several years.
|
iPood
Total Posts: 2360
|
09-24-20 01:54 PM - Post#902743
I’m not too clear about the differences (if any) between A+A and Strength Aerobics.
To me they are all standard deviations of the good, old low reps EMOM for a bunch of time.
Anyway, I do like it.
"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness
and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums.
It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable.
Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow.
Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't."
Dan Martin |
|
Neil W.
Total Posts: 41
|
09-24-20 02:42 PM - Post#902744
I took a serious run at working out in this way this summer. Like many things on the internet, it didn't deliver on all of the potential benefits it was sold with.
But I did find one real benefit for me, and that arose from the non-work intervals.
Training in this way is actually training your body to quickly calm down after a burst of significant exertion so that you can be fresh in time to attack the next round. I learned to breathe with a new mindfulness, in an almost meditative state for 20-25 seconds, and then be ready to move explosively again.
That was cool, and worth doing.
|
Steve Rogers
Total Posts: 6158
|
09-24-20 03:01 PM - Post#902745
One of the reasons for using kettlebell snatches for A+A is that it hits most muscles and moves the weight the maximum distance without throwing it. Swings certainly work as well as things like squat jumps, power pushups, the viking push press or even beating a tire with a sledge hammer.
The essence of A+A is to do an explosive set that takes 8 to 12 seconds and stops before significant lactate buildup then aerobically recover before the next set. For heavy snatches this will be about 5 reps per set and swings probably 6 to 8 reps. I think that A+A and Strength Aerobics are variation on a theme. The A+A emphasis is on power, then strength, then endurance. With relatively heavy bells the rest periods tend to be a little longer than EMOTM. Plan on targeting 20 sets to begin and work up to 40 or 50. Some have done a hundred sets but that isn't an every day workout.
I've been doing A+A snatches for about a year and am happy with it. I'm almost 70 and this style of training has been kind to my body. Al Ciampa's new web site is Be Well and Strong.
| "Coyote is always waiting, and Coyote is always hungry." |
|
camaro hair
Total Posts: 60
|
09-24-20 03:15 PM - Post#902746
Thank you for the replies!
So, the overall volume seems very high. How is that sustainable?
How would one start a program like this? Craig Marker's linked article is good but the "A+A" portion doesn't seem to be a standalone plan.
|
Dan John
Total Posts: 12292
|
09-24-20 03:31 PM - Post#902747
I have no opinion. Sorry.
Daniel John
Just handing down what I was handed down...
Make a Difference.
Live. Love. Laugh.
Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude)
Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk.
Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth.
Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights.
Reread great books. Say thank you |
|
Jordan D
Total Posts: 771
|
09-24-20 03:56 PM - Post#902748
To me, this stuff always seemed analogous to the “if you could only do one exercise on a deserted island” question.
|
WxHerk
Total Posts: 334
|
09-24-20 04:10 PM - Post#902749
One of the reasons for using kettlebell snatches for A+A is that it hits most muscles and moves the weight the maximum distance without throwing it. Swings certainly work as well as things like squat jumps, power pushups, the viking push press or even beating a tire with a sledge hammer.
The essence of A+A is to do an explosive set that takes 8 to 12 seconds and stops before significant lactate buildup then aerobically recover before the next set. For heavy snatches this will be about 5 reps per set and swings probably 6 to 8 reps. I think that A+A and Strength Aerobics are variation on a theme. The A+A emphasis is on power, then strength, then endurance. With relatively heavy bells the rest periods tend to be a little longer than EMOTM. Plan on targeting 20 sets to begin and work up to 40 or 50. Some have done a hundred sets but that isn't an every day workout.
I've been doing A+A snatches for about a year and am happy with it. I'm almost 70 and this style of training has been kind to my body. Al Ciampa's new web site is Be Well and Strong.
Steve's is as fine an answer as you can ask for.
You will eventually work into the higher volumes and sometimes back off the volume when you feel it necessary.
|
BrianBinVA
Total Posts: 5140
|
I've always thought that this protocol takes too long (in terms of individual workouts) for the claimed benefits. The idea of KB training was supposed to include abbreviated workouts, not pushing for 40 sets or whatever.
On a side note, it's always refreshing to me to see someone like Dan who is an acknowledged authority in an area say that he or she has no opinion on a particular subject. This is especially so if the subject in question is at least arguably within the area in which that person is an authority. It is somewhat contrary to the tone of modern society, in which everyone must have and share an opinion on everything. I have made a conscious effort not to have an opinion on a lot of subjects in the last few years, and found it very enjoyable. 10/10 -- highly recommend.
Oh, and the answer to the "desert island" question is the clean and jerk (KB or barbell). Just my opinion. :-)
Edited by BrianBinVA on 09-24-20 04:51 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
|
Jordan D
Total Posts: 771
|
09-24-20 05:06 PM - Post#902751
Oh, and the answer to the "desert island" question is the clean and jerk (KB or barbell). :-)
While I don't disagree with you about the clean and jerk (barbell), I meant that to say it was the answer to a goofy question with arbitrary limitations, haha.
|
WxHerk
Total Posts: 334
|
I have made a conscious effort not to have an opinion on a lot of subjects in the last few years, and found it very enjoyable. 10/10 -- highly recommend.
Strongly agree with your comment about Dan. Speaks strongly of high character, but we already know that!
Like yourself, I just keep quiet when two of my favorite quotes are bing reinforced:
"An empty wagon makes the most noise."
"Those who know the least know it LOUDEST."
|
Jg64
Total Posts: 46
|
09-24-20 06:50 PM - Post#902753
In fairness, yes some kettlebell workouts lend themselves quite well to short duration type workouts but a tried and true program that has been done by many is the Rite of Passage which can also take longer than an hour on a heavy day.
I have experimented with the A+A protocol recently and enjoyed it. I was surprised that it went as smoothly as it did.
|
RupertC
Total Posts: 1479
|
09-25-20 02:03 AM - Post#902758
I’m not too clear about the differences (if any) between A+A and Strength Aerobics.
To me they are all standard deviations of the good, old low reps EMOM for a bunch of time.
Anyway, I do like it.
This ^^^^
Every minute on the minute (EMOM) training is the basis of a lot of this material. It was popularized by Crossfit (founded in 2000), but is much older. For example, Louie Simmons of Westside was using EMOM sets in the mid-90s (https://www.t-nation.com/training/the-holy-gra il-of-sports-training-emo m-sets).
So, if you want to play with EMOM sets, you can set them up as a finisher, for example, 10x10 kettlebell swings in ten minutes. You can also do them as the main session, for example, with doubles or trebles and a moderately challenging weight on the top of the minute.
For aerobic work, look at how fighters use roadwork. Old-school boxers used to get up early and go for a jog first thing. MMA fighters threw that away and did a lot of hill sprints and intervals, until they found they were getting gassed at the end of fights. Modern fighters do a bit of both. So, maybe go for a jog once or twice a week and do some hill sprints a couple of times.
Play around with these ideas and see what works for you! Keep an eye on your recovery levels. I probably wouldn't use EMOM sets as both your main session and as a finisher if you are over 30. Choose one! Then next month try the other one. Keep notes, obviously.
| Check out my critical-thinking blog at sharpenyouraxe.substack.com |
|
aussieluke
Total Posts: 5439
|
09-25-20 02:53 AM - Post#902760
One of the reasons for using kettlebell snatches for A+A is that it hits most muscles and moves the weight the maximum distance without throwing it. Swings certainly work as well as things like squat jumps, power pushups, the viking push press or even beating a tire with a sledge hammer.
The essence of A+A is to do an explosive set that takes 8 to 12 seconds and stops before significant lactate buildup then aerobically recover before the next set. For heavy snatches this will be about 5 reps per set and swings probably 6 to 8 reps. I think that A+A and Strength Aerobics are variation on a theme. The A+A emphasis is on power, then strength, then endurance. With relatively heavy bells the rest periods tend to be a little longer than EMOTM. Plan on targeting 20 sets to begin and work up to 40 or 50. Some have done a hundred sets but that isn't an every day workout.
I've been doing A+A snatches for about a year and am happy with it. I'm almost 70 and this style of training has been kind to my body. Al Ciampa's new web site is Be Well and Strong.
I enjoy the A+A snatch sessions, but I view it as a solid, simple, almost zero-fatigue workout, and not as an aerobic session.
I run for aerobic training.
I have gone up to 30 mins but that is the end of my boredom limit. I would generally stick to 20 minutes and go heavier.
After many sessions of snatches with the 24 I was able to start using the 32 for sets of 3 and then 4, but stupidly pushed it too soon and injured myself. Had I been more sensible, I imagine I'd be doing comfortable 20 min workouts with the 32 by now.
Have also used it with swings and would mostly do sets of 7 two-hand swings with the 32kg, or sets of 5 with 48kg. If I only have 10 mins then 10 x 10 will do.
The key seems to be to stick to ~10 seconds of work (5 snatch / 7 swings) and 50 seconds recovery.
I could be wrong but I also think the basis of the whole 'strong endurance' thing is to basically do this with two or three lifts. eg:
Min 1: 10 swings
Min 2: 5 goblet squats
Min 3: 10 pushups
...repeat for 20-30 mins
|
AusDaz
Total Posts: 3611
|
09-25-20 07:43 AM - Post#902762
I don’t think it’s rocket surgery.
Basically, we have 3 energy systems: (1) ATP/PC system - highest rate of energy production shortest duration (approx 6-12 secs) (2) lactate system - moderate rate of energy production medium duration (30 secs -2 minutes) (3) aerobic system - lowest rate of energy production and longest duration (2 minutes to 2 days).
We should train the energy systems that are relevant to whatever we are training for (even if its only enjoyment).
A typical ATP-PC energy system training protocol would be something like 5-10 second efforts at near max intensity (any longer duration than that and you start to tip into the lactic system) on 1-2 minutes rest. Once you lose quality and power it’s time to stop. Best to pick an exercise that has some relevance to whatever you’re training for.
Clearly, there’s a growing body of experience that the ATP-PC system is trainable and relevant for a lot of things like team sports where there are repeated short sprints.
As an example, this morning I did a session of 49 sets of 6 seconds at 85-95% on 75 secs. The rest periods were at Maff/nose breathing pace.
|
Hellequin
Total Posts: 58
|
09-25-20 08:38 AM - Post#902764
I use A+A training protocols for about 18 months now. I do switch between different plans and also implemented the Q&D protocols from Pavel.
For me, heavy A+A snatches, 5 reps, rest untill recovered and repeat seem to offer a big bang for the buck. They cover most of my physical needs. Combined with some LSD runs and hill sprints I feel covered and fine.
I alway experiment with some additional strength training, complexes, etc. and feel how much my body can absorb.
I also implemented this kind of training for my hill sprint protocols: 4-10 seconds sprint, recover, repeat.
You can also do swings, jump squats, power push ups, cleans, etc.
A good way for me to train A+A are snatches combined with push ups. Snatch L, Snatch R, push ups, repeat.
I can recommend to try it and then to conclude after some months if it works for you or not.
A great way to combine A+A training with strength training is cluster training. You can watch Harald Motz on instagram - he does some really impressive stuff. Highly recommended.
|
Conor78
Total Posts: 254
|
09-25-20 09:18 AM - Post#902765
I’ve tried both A/A and QD approach. I preferred the QD protocol as boredom became real factor with A/A. The QD stuff is enjoyable and doesn’t burn you out. The variability is great. I used QD for TSC but I found it wasn't the best approach. Grip endurance went first followed by lungs. I agree that combining it with aerobic training world works well for general fitness if minimalist training is your thing.
|
BChase
Total Posts: 854
|
09-25-20 11:00 AM - Post#902769
Not my cup of tea. Whoever has had success with it, I'm glad it works for you.
I would rather sweat to the oldies
|
camaro hair
Total Posts: 60
|
09-25-20 12:39 PM - Post#902772
Thanks again, everyone!
So it seems an easy way to look at it would be working up to 20-ish minutes EMOM, starting with 5 reps and building up from there.
|
vegpedlr
Total Posts: 1179
|
09-25-20 12:42 PM - Post#902773
“ That other site” ? Why just call it StrongFirst? In any case Pavel and his gang have detailed the scientific rationale behind it, and some of the SF denizens have been enjoying it for awhile.
The science is a little chewy for me, and some of the protocols Emma bit finicky. But my take is it’s about trying to get some of the benefits of HIIT or metcons without beating yourself up. So short 10-15 hard efforts with enough recovery to keep the aerobic system engaged and not swamped with anaerobic struggle. I think that combo applies to a lot of sports, like MTB. We motor along aerobically, but periodically have to power up to deal with terrain obstacles. The settle back down and spin. I think the rationale is to keep the GPP training AGT, and if your sport requires anaerobic conditioning, get it within that context.
I haven’t tried any formal program, but all my swings and carries are done in this style. I’ve used a HRM to check. I do know that this informal approach has paid off on the trail. One of these days I would like to try Q&D even though it’s a bit complicated. I think there might be something there.
|
Jordan D
Total Posts: 771
|
09-25-20 01:22 PM - Post#902776
I think that combo applies to a lot of sports, like MTB. We motor along aerobically, but periodically have to power up to deal with terrain obstacles.
Then why not train on the bike (in the pool, on the track) that way, and save the gym time for more normal methods of strength acquisition, which are more effective, and make sprints easier by making each pedal stroke a lower percentage of strength output (thus, I believe, enhancing the same energy pathways)?
Unless one refuses to use barbells, and only has one kettlebell, I see no valid application outside of getting better at moving kettlebells.
Not trying to troll or be contrary here. If it works, it works. I’m just honestly curious to understand why this is desirable for anyone other than ultra-minimalist kettlebell practitioners.
|
BChase
Total Posts: 854
|
09-25-20 01:55 PM - Post#902778
I think that combo applies to a lot of sports, like MTB. We motor along aerobically, but periodically have to power up to deal with terrain obstacles.
Then why not train on the bike (in the pool, on the track) that way, and save the gym time for more normal methods of strength acquisition, which are more effective, and make sprints easier by making each pedal stroke a lower percentage of strength output (thus, I believe, enhancing the same energy pathways)?
Unless one refuses to use barbells, and only has one kettlebell, I see no valid application outside of getting better at moving kettlebells.
Not trying to troll or be contrary here. If it works, it works. I’m just honestly curious to understand why this is desirable for anyone other than ultra-minimalist kettlebell practitioners.
Completely agree with your 2nd paragraph. There is no what the hell effect. I see zero carryover.
I know this isn't A+A, but Turkish Getups make you really good at Turkish Getups.
|
Mark Fenner
Total Posts: 60
|
I think that combo applies to a lot of sports, like MTB. We motor along aerobically, but periodically have to power up to deal with terrain obstacles.
Then why not train on the bike (in the pool, on the track) that way, and save the gym time for more normal methods of strength acquisition, which are more effective, and make sprints easier by making each pedal stroke a lower percentage of strength output (thus, I believe, enhancing the same energy pathways)?
Unless one refuses to use barbells, and only has one kettlebell, I see no valid application outside of getting better at moving kettlebells.
Not trying to troll or be contrary here. If it works, it works. I’m just honestly curious to understand why this is desirable for anyone other than ultra-minimalist kettlebell practitioners.
I think this is a super valid question. I don't post much here, but after reading a lot of vegpedlr's stuff, I think we probably have some definite commonalities (I'm also primarily a mountain biker who has waved around with strength training programs and degree-of-focus -- park bench versus bus bench -- over many years).
I've got a few responses (and these aren't specific to A&A - which I know nothing about - but should apply to any sort of energy-system-development /metcon work in the gym as opposed to in-vivo/in-the-sport):
1. There are *many* factors that come up during a mountain biking (MTB) ride (similar for many other outdoor endeavors). You might be out for a social ride, the terrain might be more/less techy (thus less bursty) or hilly or ... than needed for a given training goal, there are a myriad of mechanical and environmental factors that influence what happens. Yes, each of these make any training-effort more realistic. But, they also make it that much more difficult to measure and systematically progress. The gym removes many variables.
2. The use of substantial gym time for ESD/metcon (as opposed to strength) is certainly not something I'd support (see below) -- unless there were clearly compelling needs for a given athlete. But, there may be *some* time (and/or curiosity, interest) and energy to spend on something other than "pure" max and explosive strength. Granted, it's way easier to blend mobility work (as rest intervals) than any sort of ESD, but I hope you see my point. If you decide to spend that time, there are some benefits: more control over variables. You are trading-off exposure to environmental chaos/randomness.
3. Out-of-season (most people in most sports), inclement weather (important for many outdoor sports), cross-training.
4. Generality (I'll caveat this with: claiming that some conditioning methods are more general in a general physical preparedness sense always has a bit of tenuousness to me). There are definitely folks that may have a primary sport A but also have interest in sports B&C and also care about general fitness. So, doing some work outside of sport A that *also* supports sport A, but also supports B & C & life, seems pretty reasonable to me.
5. If you look at James Wilson's mtb conditioning programming (I have a few versions of it), he definitely pushes some ATP+CP + lactic work. Why? B/C many, many mountain bikers (35+ year old, otherwise sedentary dudes ... sorry, it's just how it is) have little strength and lower lactic capacity. They can often keep up some (relatively) low cardiac output for a long time, but they literally have no "pop". It's the equivalent low key jogging versus impressive marathon times. They often also lack the technical skills necessary to even attempt power-moves up rock step-ups, rock faces or over logs: they just go around them. So, now we have a chicken-and-egg problem: they can't even *attempt* the moves that vegpedlr was referring to. (There are also longer interval power moves -- say through a 50 yard rock garden or up a 10 second kicker -- that have same but different concerns to my "instantaneous" power move story.)
All that said, I do basically no gym ESD for its own sake -- I might get it as a side-effect of a superset, complex (where my main goal is hitting a few movement patterns quickly), or longer carries. But I ride a ton and my other sports are also ESD heavy.
Best,
Mark
Edited by Mark Fenner on 09-25-20 02:21 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
|
vegpedlr
Total Posts: 1179
|
09-25-20 03:04 PM - Post#902783
Good stuff there.
I’ll add that when it comes to GPP for other sports or activities, for lots of folks, there is more time available to train than there is opportunity to practice the actual sport. So something like A+A might be a good fit. Also, as Mark mentioned, in MTB, it’s difficult to control what kind of effort you put out, even on familiar trails. That’s why the top XC racers do a large part of their training on the road. It’s easier to control intensity. The same could be said for the gym. That way, when you do get out on trails, you can focus more energy on skills and fun and not as much on fitness.
In any case, there are lots of relevant threads over at the SF forum.
|
Jordan D
Total Posts: 771
|
4. Generality (I'll caveat this with: claiming that some conditioning methods are more general in a general physical preparedness sense always has a bit of tenuousness to me). There are definitely folks that may have a primary sport A but also have interest in sports B&C and also care about general fitness. So, doing some work outside of sport A that *also* supports sport A, but also supports B & C & life, seems pretty reasonable to me.
That’s a good point and something to consider. I’m not convinced that time wouldn’t be better spent doing strength training, but it feels like a valid option for a short period. Perhaps if one is a mountain biker or swimmer, and the mountain is covered in snow, the pool is closed, and a global pandemic has everybody locked inside, a short cycle of this A+A stuff and a short cycle of EES would be a reasonable plan until things opened up.
|
12bernd
Total Posts: 176
|
Completely agree with your 2nd paragraph. There is no what the hell effect. I see zero carryover.
I know this isn't A+A, but Turkish Getups make you really good at Turkish Getups.
WTH effect only means that training for GPP will carry over to activities that are not part of that training. It's not unique to KBs.
Some of the KB lifts have a lot of carry over to other activities. When I got into KB training as a skinny teenager I went from 0 to 18 pull ups and my Cooper test distance went from 2400m to 3000m thanks to tons of KB swings and snatches. Carrying a backpack as a conscript was also very easy. And it prepared me for amateur boxing as well.
This is nothing remarkable. And there are many ways to train effectively. But KBs are pretty neat as a compact, portable gym for relatively low levels of GPP. My old 16, 24 and 32kg KBs cost me under 300€ with shipping, fit on a doormat and I could knock out a 30-40 minute workout in my small bedroom.
Edited by 12bernd on 09-25-20 03:55 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
|
Old Miler
Total Posts: 1744
|
I find I get interested in 'indoor cardio' when the weather outside ceases to be fun. And the scenery is boring on a bike/tread/C2 or looking at the bottom of a pool. So it naturally turns to intervals. Could be 10sec every minute all out, or 30/30.
The oldest form of this must be sprinting a length of the pool, then waiting while the second hand on the wall sweeps to the top, and doing the next one. I can't really believe anyone could get as much cardio benefit doing A&A snatches as they could on one of the big cardio machines.
|
Upside
Total Posts: 185
|
09-25-20 04:33 PM - Post#902789
The amount of time I can spend doing glycolytic exercise has diminished over time or at least it seems that way. It's usually confined to the segments of the year when I do bus bench training. When I first started kb training I was swinging like a mad man and feeling great, the fat rolled off of me. Then one day I hit a wall. Thinking it was an anomaly I went back the next day and went easier but no dice. Al Ciampa is a smart guy and generous with his time in correspondence, he was helpful to me.
The A&A approach can fit into most anyone's training approach and we do it without necessarily calling it that, like with most training the poison is in the dose.
There was a reference to Harald Motz earlier in the thread. He also is smart and a beast. While I know that he is deep into the physiology of his training he also strikes me as the type of genetic specimen that would respond to most any type of training.
|
D Berta
Total Posts: 141
|
I've been doing A+A snatches for about a year and am happy with it. I'm almost 70 and this style of training has been kind to my body. Al Ciampa's new web site is Be Well and Strong.
When you say been doing A&A snatches, it makes me curious about how that fits into your overall week? Is it your only strength training? Conditioning? Thanks in advance. Always curious about the bigger picture.
Edit:
Logs section
I realized just after posting this that Steve has a training log on the site and I could go read that instead of asking Steve to summarize it. Seems like A+A 3-4 days in 7 or running 2-3 days in 7 and a more traditional strength session 1 day in 7. There's some OS and hanging and pullups on the A+A days. Will have to read more.
Edited by D Berta on 10-03-20 07:36 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
|
|
