Donald123
Total Posts: 61
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05-16-20 12:17 PM - Post#898124
Another mildly interesting article about an exercise science paper.
https://www.outsideonline.com/2413325/female-endura nce-athletes-strength-tra ining-study
I wonder why exercise scientists often pick these weird exercises to do their studies. Half squat in a Smith machine, for instance. And there was a one legged hip something or other.
Anyway, the results aren’t too surprising. The endurance athletes got stronger and increased their fatigue resistance after some weeks of strength training.
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vegpedlr
Total Posts: 1179
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05-16-20 01:04 PM - Post#898126
Thanks for posting that, it was good. I like Outside Magazine, but their technical articles are often lacking. Alex Hutchinson is good though.
I’ve spent a fair bit of time trying to learn more about concurrent training and interference since I would like to be both strong and fast. The study he discussed reflects my experience and reading. The potential for interference is real, but it comes mostly from volume and recovery. For instance, the experimental group did only five hours a week of endurance training. That’s not much by endurance athlete standards, but could reflect a lot of recreational athletes. The other study done on men is more reflective of serious endurance training, which was ten hours a week.
Ultimately, there are so many variables and individual variation that doing these studies is hard. One has to draw one’s own conclusions and test them out. For me, getting stronger has definitely helped, but it’s not a replacement for aerobic volume.
Regarding exercise selection, they might seem a little weird, but fairly common for endurance coaches. The partial squat reflects a pedal stroke, and unilateral work reflects the one legged nature of running and cycling.
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Old Miler
Total Posts: 1744
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05-16-20 04:23 PM - Post#898132
I spent my "young" career trying to add in strength training on top of endurance training with all kinds of unfortunate effects. My "second" career in my 40s started with discovering this forum and Easy Strength. That's the only strength routine I have ever found which really mixes with, and enhances, a serious endurance training program.
For a runner I think there's also a 'naturalistic' option involving hills, drills and sprints - coaches are pretty good at developing the right qualities in younger athletes that way - but grown-ups tend not to do that consistently.
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vegpedlr
Total Posts: 1179
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05-16-20 07:00 PM - Post#898133
I spent my "young" career trying to add in strength training on top of endurance training with all kinds of unfortunate effects. My "second" career in my 40s started with discovering this forum and Easy Strength. That's the only strength routine I have ever found which really mixes with, and enhances, a serious endurance training program.
For a runner I think there's also a 'naturalistic' option involving hills, drills and sprints - coaches are pretty good at developing the right qualities in younger athletes that way - but grown-ups tend not to do that consistently.
Yup. I struggled many times trying to add strength training on top of various outdoor sports that all had significant endurance requirements. The problem was always too much reliance on bodybuilding style training. Too much volume, too many exercises, too much fatigue, all leading to too much recovery needed. Just too much all around. Realizing that just focusing on the basic human movements has made a world of difference.
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Kyle Aaron
Total Posts: 1911
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05-17-20 01:33 AM - Post#898139
coaches are pretty good at developing the right qualities in younger athletes that way - but grown-ups tend not to do that consistently.
Because grown-ups forget that they are not youths.
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Ricky01
Total Posts: 709
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05-17-20 08:19 AM - Post#898141
I spent my "young" career trying to add in strength training on top of endurance training with all kinds of unfortunate effects. My "second" career in my 40s started with discovering this forum and Easy Strength. That's the only strength routine I have ever found which really mixes with, and enhances, a serious endurance training program.
For a runner I think there's also a 'naturalistic' option involving hills, drills and sprints - coaches are pretty good at developing the right qualities in younger athletes that way - but grown-ups tend not to do that consistently.
I think Easy Strength would probably be sound advice and allow carry over and not 'robbing Peter to pay Paul' ie heavy squat session then trying to bike/run within a day or two.
Even with gym access restricted (and for those without KB's/barbells etc) easy strength sessions can be enjoyed with
Pushup
Pullup/chin up
Squat/hinge
Variations of each obviously.
Richard
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Rich62
Total Posts: 18
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05-17-20 09:39 AM - Post#898143
Once or twice a week doing some strength training easy strength style shouldn’t interfere with endurance training. Currently training for a marathon with four runs a week whilst doing a couple do sessions in the gym. Try to give a little space between a long run and the gym.
I’ll always warm up with some mobility work such as original strength and then work on single leg deadlifts using the landmine, single leg squats, half kneeling landmine press and some sort of row. Usually finish with bird dogs and suitcase walks and maybe a few dips and pullups.
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dan44
Total Posts: 103
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05-17-20 10:49 AM - Post#898148
My concession to the lockdown has to be to do some low-volume hill sprints. This is up a steep 20-30m incline and I only do three sets and only oncer per week, occasionally twice. I wear a heart rate monitor and only go for the next sprint when I've go my hear rate down to 108. I try and make the sprints as crisp as possible.
I come from a more endurance focussed backwood and this seems to help with the 'spring' in the step, without being too fatiguing. I think this workout maybe a keeper and the problem may be in trying to add to it and not just keeping the power output high.
I would be interested in seeing how minimalist you could go in terms of strength training.
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AAnnunz
Total Posts: 24932
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For decades, I ran a couple of 5k or 10k races a year. Nothing serious. If I could work up to a 7 minute mile pace by race day, I was happy. When I started powerlifting, I tried to keep this going, but running definitely had an interference effect on my lifting. Luckily, my pea brain figured out I needed to space races and meets far enough apart so I could cut back drastically on running intensity eight weeks before a meet. Even after I stopped running, the formula worked wherever any hard endurance work/conditioning was in the equation.
| Be strong. Be in shape. Be a man among men, regardless of your age or circumstances. |
Edited by AAnnunz on 05-17-20 11:31 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Old Miler
Total Posts: 1744
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It's 7 years since my "peak" as a running geezer, and there's probably quite a few new forum members, so I'll repeat a story if that's OK.
I don't want to brag, but do want to stress this was pretty serious training: that year I got 3rd at World Masters in the 5000m, 2nd at Euro Indoor 3000, and was in the top 5 times in the world for 5000 in 2012 and 2013. So I was training to the limit of what someone that age (47 at the time) can do.
For a lot of the preceding six months, I was running 60-70 miles per weeks, with 2 hard interval sessions per week. I was also doing Easy Strength as follows:
- 5 days per week
- warmup: a few deep goblets, halos, stretching/planks/bridges
- Deadlift, one arm DB press, pullups
- stretching afterwards (sometimes)
Since I was running 1-2x per day anyway (10 sessions per week) and often exhausted, I would commonly do this at 9pm in the evening after letting dinner go down and regaining a bit of energy.
What I found is that it really helped my legs recover - far better than just resting. The deep squats were at least as good as traditional stretching at getting my feet, calves and shins to loose up a bit. The deadlifts just seems to bring the big muscles back to normal. And the pullups and presses made sure I took enough time between deadlifts, and were pretty good at counteracting standard 'desk worker posture'.
In brief I reckon I could handle 10 more miles every week doing this, than not doing it.
I got up to a double bodyweight deadlift. Not much on this forum, but that's Cerutty's standard for a young male distance runner, but way more than most runners ever get to. I also found my times in short sprints and fitness tests were as good as when I was in my 20s.
I'm sure you could benefit with just 2-3 times per week, but I found 5 was the magic number because I followed the dictum that "if it's important, do it every day". However, what I did NOT do was program the days on which I did 2x5, 6x1 etc. I just promised myself I'd do it every night, however light I had to make it.
I've since tried a lot of other routines while NOT running competitively (currently 7000 swings into the 10000), but they all involve compromises with the running. Easy Strength did not; it only added. So if I can get back to a decent level of running fitness, that's what I am going to stick with. And I recommend it to anyone else really planning to run hard.
Minimum Effective Dose and all that...
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Mr. Kent
Total Posts: 583
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05-17-20 04:32 PM - Post#898163
Thanks for that OM,
It's timely for me as I've been considering a foray into competitive running as I enter my Master's years.
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AAnnunz
Total Posts: 24932
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...Since I was running 1-2x per day anyway (10 sessions per week) and often exhausted, I would commonly do this at 9pm in the evening after letting dinner go down and regaining a bit of energy.
What I found is that it really helped my legs recover - far better than just resting. The deep squats were at least as good as traditional stretching at getting my feet, calves and shins to loose up a bit. The deadlifts just seems to bring the big muscles back to normal. And the pullups and presses made sure I took enough time between deadlifts, and were pretty good at counteracting standard 'desk worker posture'.
In brief I reckon I could handle 10 more miles every week doing this, than not doing it.....
I’m amazed you could do anything at all after two hard running sessions a day, much less anything productive. Very impressive. Thanks for sharing.
| Be strong. Be in shape. Be a man among men, regardless of your age or circumstances. |
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Brian Hassler
Total Posts: 616
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05-17-20 11:07 PM - Post#898172
Thank you for sharing that, Old Miler.
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AusDaz
Total Posts: 3611
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What Old Miler and Uncle Al said...
Often in these discussions everyone makes perfectly valid points but we’re not really comparing apples with apples.
It’s one thing to train in a manner that enables you to improve strength and endurance at the same time when both are at sub-elite levels. But when guys like Uncle Al and Old Miler start talking about what complements elite performance I sit up and start taking notes.
And, for what it’s worth, the other program that I’d suggest not overlooking if you want to combine high level endurance training with strength is the DMPM. Do some get-ups or other carries, goblet squats, swings and pushups in modest numbers according to how you feel together with some correctives a few times a week. Forget all that linear progression stuff. Don’t even worry too much about the reps. Just decide whether today you’re going to take your sets to an easy stop; a moderately hard stop or a hard stop and keep doing reps until you get there. If you think the reps are getting a bit too high, then try the next kettlebell up next time.
Edited by AusDaz on 05-18-20 08:14 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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iPood
Total Posts: 2360
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05-18-20 05:08 AM - Post#898178
Just decide whether today you’re going to go to take your sets to an easy stop;.
If Dan had to write several articles, a couple of programs and practically an entire book explaining this:
"For the next forty workouts, pick five lifts. Do them every workout. Never miss a rep, in fact, never even get close to struggling. Go as light as you need to go and don’t go over ten reps for any of the movements in a workout. It is going to seem easy. When the weights feel light, simply add more weight.”
Good luck trying to explain that brilliant but somewhat obscure concept.
"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness
and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums.
It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable.
Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow.
Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't."
Dan Martin |
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Dan John
Total Posts: 12292
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05-18-20 09:00 AM - Post#898183
True dat.
Trying to explain:
Easy Strength
One Lift a Day
10,000 swings
has been the challenge of my life.
Daniel John
Just handing down what I was handed down...
Make a Difference.
Live. Love. Laugh.
Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude)
Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk.
Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth.
Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights.
Reread great books. Say thank you |
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iPood
Total Posts: 2360
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True dat.
Trying to explain:
Easy Strength
One Lift a Day
10,000 swings
has been the challenge of my life.
I strongly suspect that's why Starting Strength has humongous amounts of dedicated followers: there is no guessing, no alternative interpretation, no variation allowed.
Precise and concise instructions: do this and that, exactly as explained or else you are not doing the program.
Which might not be a bad idea, all things considered.
"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness
and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums.
It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable.
Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow.
Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't."
Dan Martin |
Edited by iPood on 05-18-20 09:13 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Old Miler
Total Posts: 1744
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I’m amazed you could do anything at all after two hard running sessions a day, much less anything productive. Very impressive. Thanks for sharing.
It's definitely NOT two hard sessions a day, more like two hard sessions a week! Each morning, easy run to work (I was very lucky, 5 miles around a beautiful park to the office); some evenings, run back easily; twice a week, something intense. I would do my easy runs so easily that overweight jogger friends were amazed to find they could join me.
But, you get to a certain level of volume and you HAVE to actively work on recovery. I always found I could get up to 50 miles per week without any special effort. To reach 60, I'd have to be working on some recovery stuff; and to stay at 70, I could keep it up for about 6 weeks but only if I was obsessively careful about sleep, stretching and supplementary exercises - and a massage once a week if possible. There are many others, far better than me in youth, whose bodies could take 100 miles per week.
I was not very good at domestic chores in that period ;-)
Edited by Old Miler on 05-18-20 03:52 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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vegpedlr
Total Posts: 1179
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05-18-20 04:58 PM - Post#898210
If endurance performance is the priority, then it’s clear strength training will help, to a point. That point of diminishing return comes pretty quickly.
But what if you want progress in both strength and endurance domains as a more generalist approach? If one is willing to compromise, knowing one could be faster or stronger with a more narrow focus?
Trying to color in that gray area keeps me awake at night . . .
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Kyle Aaron
Total Posts: 1911
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Precise and concise instructions: do this and that, exactly as explained or else you are not doing the program.
Which might not be a bad idea, all things considered.
Precisely so. Though I note that while SS had success, StrongLifts had more - more people have done it. Why? SS requires you to choose your starting weights and progression, and everyone starts too high and progresses too quickly - SL tells you to start with the empty bar and progress by the minimum you have. As well, SS says, "go on till you get stuck," whereas SL says, "go on till you squat 100kg."
Clear instructions enhance adherence.
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AusDaz
Total Posts: 3611
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05-19-20 02:46 AM - Post#898219
But what if you want progress in both strength and endurance domains as a more generalist approach? If one is willing to compromise, knowing one could be faster or stronger with a more narrow focus?
Trying to color in that gray area keeps me awake at night . . .
I agree, there’s an interesting question about how you structure your weekly plan when combining strength training with conditioning work.
I plan my weekly sessions like this:
- hard conditioning
- light DMPM
- medium conditioning
- hard conditioning
- light DMPM
- medium/hard conditioning
- light DMPM
So 4 days a week of aerobic work interspersed with 3 days of DMPM as a light, tonic workout. Even then, I vary how hard the DMPM sessions are according to how I’m feeling.
But if you want to do more than easy strength or DMPM or more than 1 session a day, then the weekly plan gets really tricky.
Simply put - where do you put the strength training and which do you do first and why:
- hard strength training on a light conditioning day
- medium strength training on a medium conditioning day
- hard strength training on a hard conditioning day
I feel like there are advantages and disadvantages to all of them depending on what your goals are for that particular block of training.
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The Finn
Total Posts: 435
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05-19-20 07:39 AM - Post#898227
There are of course the exceptional specimens who can combine hard strength training with hard endurance training, but as an average Joe I've made the best progress when I've focused on one of the following general combinations:
- Hard strength training & easy/minimal endurance training
- Easy/minimal strength training & hard endurance training
Medium-medium option isn't somehow as interesting or motivating to me and seems to lead to medium results, but maybe that's just a personal thing.
"My grandma Olga, a famous Finnish Powerlifter, once told me,
'Little one, take care of your gastrointestinal tract
and it'll take care of you.'
Then she struck me with some salted herring."
- TC Luoma |
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DanMartin
Total Posts: 20705
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05-19-20 10:12 AM - Post#898234
If endurance performance is the priority, then it’s clear strength training will help, to a point. That point of diminishing return comes pretty quickly.
But what if you want progress in both strength and endurance domains as a more generalist approach? If one is willing to compromise, knowing one could be faster or stronger with a more narrow focus?
Trying to color in that gray area keeps me awake at night . . .
That is not a problem. Keeping it simple is key. I would either do the three power lifts twice or thrice weekly with running on the other days. Or. and this is my preference, the Bill Starr "Big 3." (Power clean, bench press, full squat) And still with the twice or thrice weekly workouts.
Running would be what ever melded with the lifting. Distance work? Sure, but 5 miles is probably enough. Speed work? Sure, and again, a simple set of eight 100's or 200's once or at the most twice a week.
The thing is, if you work at it, you could get by doing any of those suggestions in an hour or less each day. YMMV
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Old Miler
Total Posts: 1744
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05-19-20 05:43 PM - Post#898244
Speed work? Sure, and again, a simple set of eight 100's or 200's once or at the most twice a week.
Thanks, Dan. That is one of the simplest and most important things, which mature runners tend to have stopped doing a couple of decades ago. Trying to run fast without, er, running fast is like trying to get strong without lifting heavy.
Coincidentally, a beautiful day in the UK, so I went out to an empty playing field and did 10 x 100-150m on the grass, with a walk back. First time this year. Just delightful. I call it "vertical sunbathing".
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tom6112
Total Posts: 846
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05-19-20 11:16 PM - Post#898256
from 16 to 21 i ran about every day and lifted twice a week. I was 6 foot and 150-55 pounds and ran my best times.
after that i cut down to running 3 days a week.
by age 26 i got up to 185 and made my best lifts in my late 20s.
now at age 59 my goal is to keep my muscle and strength and try to make gains. I still run 3 days a week but just for health and now to run fast.
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iPood
Total Posts: 2360
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Trying to run fast without, er, running fast is like trying to get strong without lifting heavy.
That's what Easy Strength is for. 
And, playing the Devil's advocate, that's what Niko Niko running is (supposedly) for: Dr. Hiroaki Tanaka used it to improve from 4:11 for the marathon in his thirties to 2:40 when his was fifty-years old and eventually 2:38:50 – his personal best after that.
The interesting thing about this is that Niko Niko seems to be even less intense than the Maffetone method.
It almost sounds too good to be true. But, then again, so does Easy Strength and it works.
"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness
and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums.
It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable.
Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow.
Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't."
Dan Martin |
Edited by iPood on 05-20-20 01:21 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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gwrows
Total Posts: 21
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I wish I could add something to this meaningful thread, but have more questions than answers. I’m not sure if I’m suffering from balancing strength work and endurance work, suffering from age decline, or life stressors. But since I’ve been trying to get stronger while also getting faster at my sport of rowing the last few years, I’ve gotten slower at rowing and/or unready for tests. I have rebuilt my strength over that time period, but apparently there is a cost to that, depending upon priorities.
Only thing I can conclude for me, if I want to work strength training is: I cannot push endurance/ stamina work with AT / TR type efforts while also weight training and sprint training. I can do short AN stuff, but need to realize it is like weight training and needs recovery. And need to really do mostly very low intensity aerobic training, like very low intensity.
I certainly cannot peak at my sport and also be making gains at strength training - I’ve tried and failed enough now.
I’m finally realizing at 58 that I cannot do all I want to and choices have to be made. The challenge is figuring out which is more important to me and my life
Edited by gwrows on 05-21-20 09:02 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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RupertC
Total Posts: 1479
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I wish I could add something to this meaningful thread, but have more questions than answers. I’m not sure if I’m suffering from balancing strength work and endurance work, suffering from age decline, or life stressors. But since I’ve been trying to get stronger while also getting faster at my sport of rowing the last few years, I’ve gotten slower at rowing and/or unready for tests. I have rebuilt my strength over that time period, but apparently there is a cost to that, depending upon priorities.
Only thing I can conclude for me, if I want to work strength training is: I cannot push endurance/ stamina work with AT / TR type efforts while also weight training and sprint training. I can do short AN stuff, but need to realize it is like weight training and needs recovery. And need to really do mostly very low intensity aerobic training, like very low intensity.
I certainly cannot peak at my sport and also be making gains at strength training - I’ve tried and failed enough now.
I’m finally realizing at 58 that I cannot do all I want to and choices have to be made. The challenge is figuring out which is more important to me and my life
Not an expert here, but have you thought about cycling between an on-season (focus on your sport, maintain strength) and an off-season (build strength, maintain sport skills)? There are lots of ways of setting it up, but something basic might be two months of on-season (lots of rowing combined with DMPM, for example) and then one month of off-season (easy rowing with lower volumes, pushing numbers in weight room).
| Check out my critical-thinking blog at sharpenyouraxe.substack.com |
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gwrows
Total Posts: 21
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 05-22-20 06:19 AM - Post#898328
Funny. I awoke with that thought! When I was reading this thread a few days ago, I was thinking “periodization”. And then didn’t consider it for myself. But you are right, trying to be prepared to race all year just doesn’t work. Thanks for the thought. Now I just need to do it
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AusDaz
Total Posts: 3611
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I wish I could add something to this meaningful thread, but have more questions than answers. I’m not sure if I’m suffering from balancing strength work and endurance work, suffering from age decline, or life stressors. But since I’ve been trying to get stronger while also getting faster at my sport of rowing the last few years, I’ve gotten slower at rowing and/or unready for tests. I have rebuilt my strength over that time period, but apparently there is a cost to that, depending upon priorities.
Only thing I can conclude for me, if I want to work strength training is: I cannot push endurance/ stamina work with AT / TR type efforts while also weight training and sprint training. I can do short AN stuff, but need to realize it is like weight training and needs recovery. And need to really do mostly very low intensity aerobic training, like very low intensity.
I certainly cannot peak at my sport and also be making gains at strength training - I’ve tried and failed enough now.
I’m finally realizing at 58 that I cannot do all I want to and choices have to be made. The challenge is figuring out which is more important to me and my life
AT = anaerobic threshold?
AN = anaerobic intervals?
TR = ?
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Dan John
Total Posts: 12292
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05-22-20 10:03 AM - Post#898336
https://www.percy-cerutty.com/
ON Kindle...maybe worth a read as part of this discussion.
Daniel John
Just handing down what I was handed down...
Make a Difference.
Live. Love. Laugh.
Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude)
Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk.
Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth.
Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights.
Reread great books. Say thank you |
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NSmith
Total Posts: 156
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I wish I could add something to this meaningful thread, but have more questions than answers. I’m not sure if I’m suffering from balancing strength work and endurance work, suffering from age decline, or life stressors. But since I’ve been trying to get stronger while also getting faster at my sport of rowing the last few years, I’ve gotten slower at rowing and/or unready for tests. I have rebuilt my strength over that time period, but apparently there is a cost to that, depending upon priorities.
Only thing I can conclude for me, if I want to work strength training is: I cannot push endurance/ stamina work with AT / TR type efforts while also weight training and sprint training. I can do short AN stuff, but need to realize it is like weight training and needs recovery. And need to really do mostly very low intensity aerobic training, like very low intensity.
I certainly cannot peak at my sport and also be making gains at strength training - I’ve tried and failed enough now.
I’m finally realizing at 58 that I cannot do all I want to and choices have to be made. The challenge is figuring out which is more important to me and my life
Gwrows, what metrics are you using to conclude you are getting slower at rowing? On the water? On the ergo? Both? Do you have specific numbers you can throw out to help us get a frame of reference of how severe a decline you are talking about.
Strength for rowing is in some way an even bigger deal than in other sports, though arguably less important because of the huge technique demands. If your main concern is erg performance, then yes maximizing strength is probably a good goal, but I think for on the water there is a point of diminishing returns that is pretty low. While certainly guys like Xeno and Drysdale were massively strong, there are plenty of guys with less strength that get by just fine. It's the massively strong plus technically perfect combo that gets you an Olympic medal, but for mere mortals there is far better return on focusing on the technique, in my opinion anyway.
I think the Cerutty/Dan John "whole body/the body is one piece" approach is probably best...
Was just thinking there was some cross pollination in this thread and the existing Cerutty discussion.
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gwrows
Total Posts: 21
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Understood about on the water and technique. There is lots of speed I can pick up in that department. The results I’m talking about are on the erg, which is painfully clear about progress or not. To put in perspective what I’m seeing, within a two year period that included more focus on weight training, which no doubt hurt my aerobic training, my 1K erg went from 3:18 to 3:21. This year, the third year, I only pulled 3:24 (Be gentle, I’m 58 and not tall). This doesn’t seem like age decline.
But more importantly, what I’m seeing and feeling is less stamina to train (on the erg) at the volume needed to make progress. Could be mental too - it sucks to be at the personal limits and still going backwards. I just can’t figure out how to make progress in both and still have adequate recovery - it seems to stretch the training week way out there.
Not sure where this is all going! Again, it’s about choices. I love weight training and I love endurance sports. And I really love the stress of racing (love?) and the joy that follows. And I want to look good. Can’t have it all I suppose
Edited by gwrows on 05-22-20 01:38 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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NSmith
Total Posts: 156
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Understood about on the water and technique. There is lots of speed I can pick up in that department. The results I’m talking about are on the erg, which is painfully clear about progress or not. To put in perspective what I’m seeing, within a two year period that included more focus on weight training, which no doubt hurt my aerobic training, my 1K erg went from 3:18 to 3:21. This year, the third year, I only pulled 3:24 (Be gentle, I’m 58 and not tall). This doesn’t seem like age decline.
But more importantly, what I’m seeing and feeling is less stamina to train (on the erg) at the volume needed to make progress. Could be mental too - it sucks to be at the personal limits and still going backwards. I just can’t figure out how to make progress in both and still have adequate recovery - it seems to stretch the training week way out there.
Not sure where this is all going! Again, it’s about choices. I love weight training and I love endurance sports. And I really love the stress of racing (love?) and the joy that follows. And I want to look good. Can’t have it all I suppose
Okay thanks for the feedback. What are you racing on the water? Team boats or a single? If a team boat, do they use your erg to select boats?
I guess what I'm getting at is in three years you're talking about a 6% slowdown in time, maybe 8 or 9% in terms of watts, and that's for something as fickle as a 1000m effort on a rowing machine. Maybe your 3:24 was 10 degrees hotter in the boathouse or you got a lousy night sleep or a million other reasons. Unless you need to be pulling a 3:10 to "make a boat", who cares? 3:20ish for a 58 year old seems pretty darn fit to me, but I don't know a lot about the master's scene.
I think the bigger issue, and what your true metric should be is what you brought up about having less stamina for training. That's something you need to pay attention to. As much as possible try not to let the number on the machine dictate your "progress", but rather your day to day feeling and on the water development. I think you are wrong and you CAN have it all, you are just using the wrong measuring stick. (In case you can't tell I am NOT a big fan of the erg. Let's take something as beautiful and rhythmic and poetic as rowing and reduce it down to its most base, mind numbing form. Blegh)
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Quig86
Total Posts: 147
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Finding balance in this has always been hard for me and has almost always led to me returning to an easy strength template when I’m training for a race. A couple years ago I made an attempt at returning to the marathon and trained with high volume and low intensity, Maffetone stuff (50ish weekly miles). I tried to cycle 5-3-1 into this and just couldn’t. Maybe with unlimited recovery time, no pre-existing injuries, etc I could have managed, but easy strength felt too good by comparison.
Due to some old injuries, my larger frame, and general bullheadedness, I managed to injure my SI joint a few weeks out from this marathon and ran the whole thing almost vomiting from pain due to muscle spasms in both hamstrings. My lungs felt great though...
The lesson learned from this is that strength is good, endurance is good, and having both without safe and pain free movement is bad. 10 minutes of yoga a few days a week is literally all it has taken to remove these issues entirely.
Of course training should be dictated by the goal and at a certain point, both qualities are competing with each other for both time and withdrawals from the recovery bank. I I found ultra distance training to be more forgiving with fitting strength in than an attempt at a decent marathon, but I’m also not looking to win any medals.
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BrianBinVA
Total Posts: 5140
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05-22-20 04:27 PM - Post#898352
I'm no endurance athlete, and definitely no rower, but losing six seconds in three years for an event that takes a bit less than three and a half minutes when you are 58 years old seems like no cause to worry at all to me.
As NSmith said, if you're feeling run down constantly and don't have energy for training, that's another, potentially bigger, thing, but six seconds ain't bad.
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gwrows
Total Posts: 21
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05-22-20 07:19 PM - Post#898358
Thanks for the up. Maybe there’s a way back to closer.
I need to figure out the recovery part. I think I step on the gas too quickly and fry out rather than building patiently at less than max efforts. It’s hard to gauge the cumulative impact day over day vs what happens after a month
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vegpedlr
Total Posts: 1179
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05-22-20 07:24 PM - Post#898359
At the risk of equine abuse . . .
This also raises the issue, discussed previously, of standards. Depending on where your goals fall on the Strength vs Endurance spectrum, how much is enough?
For instance, Joe Friel in his Training Bible books for cyclists and triathletes uses both periodization and standards to guide training. Off season strength work has a limited time frame before switching to maintenance. If you don’t meet the standards, you switch to maintain mode and hit the roads. If you hit the standards early, you switch to maintain because more isn’t better.
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Mike L
Total Posts: 43
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05-22-20 08:01 PM - Post#898363
I've been thinking about what to post on this since I have many thoughts, but something like this.
Should endurance athletes strength train? Of course.
How much? It depends.
Do you need the path? Then easy strength seems like a good one.
Will you reach a fork in the road? Probably
Do you need a recipe? I'm not sure one exists for all people.
Some people like to solve problems and I think that's why easy strength and "just a little more" make sense to some people. From my brief readings on Cerruty was one who let athletes find their own path.
Others need plan to follow and want to know every detail.
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AusDaz
Total Posts: 3611
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05-23-20 03:23 AM - Post#898367
Do you periodize your strength training or your rowing training?
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gwrows
Total Posts: 21
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I think both need to be periodized. And we have 1K races in spring and 5K races in fall, so different energy system demands.
To be honest, like many of you are saying and day on other posts, I think a plan that had mostly aerobic rowing and DMPM or ES type training would work for most of the year. Maybe a build period in winter. I’d probably want to stay in touch with speed one day a week, but not such that it grinds down the system.
Edited by gwrows on 05-23-20 07:26 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Silverback61
Total Posts: 1834
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05-23-20 10:04 AM - Post#898376
Endurance training kills strength gains.
It Is Better To Be Stronger Than You Look, Than Look Stronger Than You Are
My Weights Are In Freedom Units
DEADLIFTS RULE!!
=[[[[[[--------]]]]]]= |
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RupertC
Total Posts: 1479
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I think both need to be periodized. And we have 1K races in spring and 5K races in fall, so different energy system demands.
To be honest, like many of you are saying and day on other posts, I think a plan that had mostly aerobic rowing and DMPM or ES type training would work for most of the year. Maybe a build period in winter. I’d probably want to stay in touch with speed one day a week, but not such that it grinds down the system.
There you go. Two in-seasons / year, one for 1k and one for 5k. When racing season is over, have two off-seasons / year for a month or two each time.
| Check out my critical-thinking blog at sharpenyouraxe.substack.com |
Edited by RupertC on 05-23-20 11:06 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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AusDaz
Total Posts: 3611
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I think both need to be periodized. And we have 1K races in spring and 5K races in fall, so different energy system demands.
To be honest, like many of you are saying and day on other posts, I think a plan that had mostly aerobic rowing and DMPM or ES type training would work for most of the year. Maybe a build period in winter. I’d probably want to stay in touch with speed one day a week, but not such that it grinds down the system.
I find block periodization works well for me with my aerobic stuff. I work in 6-9 week blocks and progress from aerobic base (Long slow distance and lower threshold intervals (usually 8-12 mins) >> anaerobic threshold (usually 4-6 min intervals) >> aerobic power (VO2 max type intervals - usually 2-3 min intervals). Anaerobically, I progress from alactic intervals >> explosive repeats >> lactic intervals over the same period.
Strength wise, you could try working in blocks of 8s, 5s and 3s over the same period. I’d suggest starting at 3 sets and seeing how you go over 1-2 blocks of training. Of course, you could do more but you need to turn up to rowing training the next day capable of performing well.
Edited by AusDaz on 05-23-20 07:55 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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gwrows
Total Posts: 21
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05-24-20 07:48 AM - Post#898412
Thank you all for the input. Very helpful
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Old Miler
Total Posts: 1744
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I find block periodization works well for me with my aerobic stuff. I work in 6-9 week blocks and progress from aerobic base...
That's absolutely the norm among track runners in Northern Europe. The rhythm to my life, you could say. Start in September, long buildup towards a competitive season from late May to August, then a vacation.
We used to follow a year-long cycle. But now we're all grown-ups and can pick our battles, I wonder what's the optimum training cycle? Somewhere in between 6 and 12 months, I'd guess - the full year is too long to go 'bus bench', but 6 months isn't quite long enough for a break, a good base and all the phases...
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AusDaz
Total Posts: 3611
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I find block periodization works well for me with my aerobic stuff. I work in 6-9 week blocks and progress from aerobic base...
That's absolutely the norm among track runners in Northern Europe. The rhythm to my life, you could say. Start in September, long buildup towards a competitive season from late May to August, then a vacation.
We used to follow a year-long cycle. But now we're all grown-ups and can pick our battles, I wonder what's the optimum training cycle? Somewhere in between 6 and 12 months, I'd guess - the full year is too long to go 'bus bench', but 6 months isn't quite long enough for a break, a good base and all the phases...
Old Miler - an entire training cycle for me is something like 6-10 weeks. So for example 3 weeks aerobic foundation, 3 weeks threshold, 3 weeks power. Sometimes I’ll do uneven durations like 5,3,2 weeks or even mini cycles like 3,2,1 between competitions.
I think it works for me because:
1. I train and race throughout the year over a variety of distances (200m to 2hrs);
2. The longer ocean races in my sport require a high level of anaerobic ability and not just the more usual aerobic qualities you’d typically associate with that duration.
3. I try and maintain my aerobic base throughout the year (notwithstanding the focus of the latter cycles - I’ll still maintain a decent amount of volume at lower intensities).
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Old Miler
Total Posts: 1744
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Old Miler - an entire training cycle for me is something like 6-10 weeks...).
That's interesting. I'm sure there's a lot of road racers and triathletes around the world who do that but it's hard for me to grasp - I'm kind of attuned to a few phases within which you repeat a week's training a few times over. Could you give an example of how the training evolves in one of those?
By the way, I am half way through Herb Elliott's "The Golden Mile". Inspirational - he spent his early years playing on Perth beaches, dunes and in the ocean - then his school years doing 3-4 sports at once. The kind of conditioning kids just don't get these days...
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vegpedlr
Total Posts: 1179
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Dan John
Total Posts: 12292
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05-31-20 12:22 PM - Post#898649
http://naturalrunningcent er.com/2015/08/11/slow-joggi ng-run-smile-midfoot-stri ke/
I found this excellent.
Daniel John
Just handing down what I was handed down...
Make a Difference.
Live. Love. Laugh.
Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude)
Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk.
Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth.
Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights.
Reread great books. Say thank you |
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