Maffetone...and a clue -
davedraper.com home Home | Dave's Q&A | IOL Blog | DanJohn.net
Shout box
Recent topics


Dan John's Wandering Weights: Our Epic Journey Through All Things Heavy
Click here for details and to sign up for this FREE weekly commentary

*****

Dan John
Dave's Current Article
Draper Photo Gallery
Book Recommendations
Sample Workout Routines Unanswered Topics
Early IOL Email Archive
IOL Forum FAQ


Current Quote
"Everything is light after moving several tons of iron -- everything is simple. Colors are brighter, sounds more acute and what might otherwise be annoying as almost entertaining. You wallow in patience, lose yourself in concentration and see humor where stress generally abounds."
~ Draper
Quick Links: Main Index | Flight Deck | Training Logs | Dan John Deck | Must Reads | Archive | Private Topics

Display Name Post: Maffetone...and a clue        (Topic#37150)
Dan John
*
Total Posts: 11551
03-17-20 03:39 PM - Post#895727    



"Feed a cold, starve a fever" (Or whatever) This article adds some insights into fat, keto and D for immune health.

https://philmaffetone.com/six-more-ways-to-prot ect-yourself-against-infe ction/
Daniel John
Just handing down what I was handed down...


Make a Difference.
Live. Love. Laugh.
Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude)
Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk.
Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth.
Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights.
Reread great books. Say thank you


 
Upside
*
Total Posts: 100
03-18-20 03:00 PM - Post#895774    



After recently seeing my primary care physician he said that it's been a year since blood work and submitted the test order to the local hospital, I asked for magnesium and Vit D to be included. With the corona situation I haven't mustered the gumption to go in. It's not crazy in Ohio yet due to strong measures taken by the governor so maybe I'm good to go.

I'll give the hospital a call.
 
Browser
*
Total Posts: 390
Maffetone...and a clue
03-18-20 03:26 PM - Post#895777    



Not to hijack, but is it universal around here that zero carb/keto improves blood work? I've never done orthodox keto, but I was pretty low carb for a couple of years and my blood work has improved since I reintroduced carbs (300g a day or so) even while gaining weight. This wasn't just one test, it's a three year trend.
"The trouble about always trying to preserve the health of the body is that it is so difficult to do without destroying the health of the mind."~GK Chesterton




Edited by Browser on 03-18-20 03:27 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
 
BrianBinVA
*
Total Posts: 3958
Re: Maffetone...and a clue
03-18-20 03:35 PM - Post#895779    



  • Browser Said:
Not to hijack, but is it universal around here that zero carb/keto improves blood work? I've never done orthodox keto, but I was pretty low carb for a couple of years and my blood work has improved since I reintroduced carbs (300g a day or so) even while gaining weight. This wasn't just one test, it's a three year trend.



Not universal for me. I too do better (both bloodwork-backed and anecdotally) with carbs. That said, my carbs are mostly oats, rice and the occasional pasta or potato, not twinkies and store-bought sheet cakes. I am not a doctor, and didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but I think like most things, whether one does better with or without carbs is highly individual.

If most people on the internet (not anyone here, just most) spent half the time experimenting to see what works for them that they spend reading articles and research to back up whatever, most would be much better off!

My highly unscientific immune boosters:

1) sleep
2) go outside, especially if it is sunny
3) eat fruit and veggies
4) take cold showers
5) exercise
"You are not good enough to be disappointed."

-- Dan John

"I play real sports, not trying to be the best at exercising."

-- Kenny Powers




Edited by BrianBinVA on 03-18-20 03:38 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
 
vegpedlr
*
Total Posts: 996
Re: Maffetone...and a clue
03-18-20 04:15 PM - Post#895780    



  • Browser Said:
Not to hijack, but is it universal around here that zero carb/keto improves blood work?


Me neither. As my screen name suggests, I firmly believe that very low fat, whole foods based strict vegetarian diet is optimal. I do not understand the attraction to low carb diets, especially keto. I believe ketosis can be beneficial in the short term via water only fasting, and maybe the FMD, but it is not clear to me that it is healthy or safe as a lifestyle. Tricking the body into starvation mode while there is an abundance of calories makes zero sense to me.
 
Justin Jordan
*
Total Posts: 590
Re: Maffetone...and a clue
03-18-20 07:40 PM - Post#895786    



  • Browser Said:
Not to hijack, but is it universal around here that zero carb/keto improves blood work? I've never done orthodox keto, but I was pretty low carb for a couple of years and my blood work has improved since I reintroduced carbs (300g a day or so) even while gaining weight. This wasn't just one test, it's a three year trend.



Nope.

Most people will probably improve by not eating garbage.

For me, low carb does improve all my bloodwork.
 
Browser
*
Total Posts: 390
Maffetone...and a clue
03-18-20 08:53 PM - Post#895788    



Not trying to pick an internet fight but it’s a pretty huge leap to say all carbs = garbage.
"The trouble about always trying to preserve the health of the body is that it is so difficult to do without destroying the health of the mind."~GK Chesterton




Edited by Browser on 03-18-20 08:57 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
 
BrianBinVA
*
Total Posts: 3958
03-19-20 08:08 AM - Post#895794    



I think/have gathered that low-carb works wonderfully for some people. For others, it's not a miracle solution. Again, like most things in life, it depends. Everyone "just" needs to find what works best for him or her. I put "just" in scare quotes because that is often much easier said than done, which is one of many reasons so few actually do it...
"You are not good enough to be disappointed."

-- Dan John

"I play real sports, not trying to be the best at exercising."

-- Kenny Powers


 
GeoffreyLevens
*
Total Posts: 233
Re: Maffetone...and a clue
03-19-20 10:54 AM - Post#895806    



  • Browser Said:
Not to hijack, but is it universal around here that zero carb/keto improves blood work? I've never done orthodox keto, but I was pretty low carb for a couple of years and my blood work has improved since I reintroduced carbs (300g a day or so) even while gaining weight. This wasn't just one test, it's a three year trend.


Seems to me depends on a number of variables, individual physiology and exactly how you do the diet. I have a local friend who's been in deep keto, supervised by oncology specializing Naturopath for about 5 ½ years, maybe more. She now coaches people herself in the diet. The way she does it, learned from her doctor, is based on frequent and extensive lab tests to monitor and tweak and most importantly, at the beginning genetic testing carefully interpreted because peoples' bodies have different, sometimes opposite responses to same food inputs.

  • Browser Said:
Not trying to pick an internet fight but it’s a pretty huge leap to say all carbs = garbage.


Only carbs that are garbage are the refined ones, white flour, extracted sugars, etc. Whole grains (esp intact), potatoes, sweet potatoes, winter squash are all excellent including for blood sugar control. You do need to lose excess fat, esp visceral kind. In fact, all foods not of animal origin (and even some of those i.e. dairy) contain significant carbs. Smooshing them all together, whole foods and refined extracts, does a great disservice to the field of nutrition and dietary knowledge. Contributes to public ignorance and confusion.
 
Leo M
*
Total Posts: 346
Re: Maffetone...and a clue
03-19-20 11:45 AM - Post#895808    



  • Browser Said:
Not to hijack, but is it universal around here that zero carb/keto improves blood work? I've never done orthodox keto, but I was pretty low carb for a couple of years and my blood work has improved since I reintroduced carbs (300g a day or so) even while gaining weight. This wasn't just one test, it's a three year trend.



I'm going to argue for nuance here, once again. As I tell my clients, there is "Keto" which seems to be synonymous with lots of red meat, sausage, cheese, etc. And then there is "a" ketogenic diet, here, referred to any diet which causes the body to produce ketones. And the spectrum of diets that cause the body to produce ketones in enormous.

My bloodwork was trending in a direction I didn't love last May, given my genetic deck. I first switched to a very low carb diet, then ultimately a ketogenic diet. But, I'm 80-90% pescatarian. I eat tons of fish, eggs, and veggies. I eat nuts and berries in moderation. I limit red meat and chicken, but might revisit that once I see my markers where I want them. I might also occasionally reintroduce carbs for the same reason.

But my point remains, the following 3 diets are all ketogenic:
1. Predominantly red meat and cheese
2. Soybean oil only
3. Fish, eggs, veggies, and nuts

The impact to bloodwork will likely be different.

Leo
ATC Center


 
Justin Jordan
*
Total Posts: 590
Re: Maffetone...and a clue
03-20-20 10:21 AM - Post#895853    



  • Browser Said:
Not trying to pick an internet fight but it’s a pretty huge leap to say all carbs = garbage.




Sorry, I was maybe unclear. I don't think all carbs are garbage. But MOST carbs that MOST people eat are garbage, so people's diets tend to improve when they eat low carb, but because they're not eating a crap ton of sugar.

If you're already, as Dan would say, eating like an adult it probably makes much less of a difference and could be worse.

But most people aren't eating like adults, so changing to something closer is an improvement. This is a lot of the magic of most diets -if you go from eating the standard american diet to paleo or vegan or whatever, it's likely just going to eliminate a bunch of stuff.

For most people in the developed world, a good diet is a lot more about what you don't eat than what you do.

In my particular case, eating like an adult isn't enough, I actually do have to keep my carbs crazy low to keep my blood sugar under control
 
GeoffreyLevens
*
Total Posts: 233
Re: Maffetone...and a clue
03-20-20 10:57 AM - Post#895859    



  • Justin Jordan Said:
In my particular case, eating like an adult isn't enough, I actually do have to keep my carbs crazy low to keep my blood sugar under control


That means you either have insulin resistance (likely) or destroyed beta cells (not so likely). By far the #1 cause of insulin resistance is visceral fat, esp in pancreas (around beta cells) and liver (which effects sugar processing too). I had same problem at first when diagnosed prediabetic and I was fairly lean looking at the time. Some version of skinny-fat. Added considerably more resistance training (was already walking quite a bit) and things sorted after a few months. I was already on a complex carbs only, moderate fat/moderate protein diet. Actually did add some fat but kept the complex carbs
 
banzaiengr
*
Total Posts: 139
Maffetone...and a clue
03-23-20 04:27 PM - Post#896011    



Ketogenic diet is less than 30 g of carbs per day. Some suggest less than 25 g. But it is not zero. Those 30 g should be from vegetables and green leafy vegetables.

The diet consists of "healthy" fats like avocados for the biggest portion of your nutrition and then protein.

Whether or not the addition of sausage and cheese is included making it "keto" is foolish. Where folks go wrong is it still amounts to calories in/calories out. If your are taking in more calories than you burn because you are eating too much fat you will not get results.

What Dr. Maffetone's work showed that eating in this manner and training at a reduced heart rate allowed the body to rely on fat as it's preferred fuel source. Win/Win





Edited by banzaiengr on 03-23-20 04:28 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
 
Steve Rogers
*
Total Posts: 4934
Re: Maffetone...and a clue
03-23-20 06:11 PM - Post#896016    



  • banzaiengr Said:
Ketogenic diet is less than 30 g of carbs per day. Some suggest less than 25 g. But it is not zero. Those 30 g should be from vegetables and green leafy vegetables.

The diet consists of "healthy" fats like avocados for the biggest portion of your nutrition and then protein.

Whether or not the addition of sausage and cheese is included making it "keto" is foolish. Where folks go wrong is it still amounts to calories in/calories out. If your are taking in more calories than you burn because you are eating too much fat you will not get results.

What Dr. Maffetone's work showed that eating in this manner and training at a reduced heart rate allowed the body to rely on fat as it's preferred fuel source. Win/Win




Beg to disagree. There isn't a hard and fast rule for the carbohydrate limit for a keto diet. Some people will go into ketosis at 50g/day and others need to be below 25g/day. Also grass fed beef, pastured eggs, and will caught salmon, sardines and herring are excellent sources of healthy fats.
"Coyote is always waiting, and Coyote is always hungry."


 
Kyle Aaron
*
Total Posts: 1697
Re: Maffetone...and a clue
03-23-20 11:51 PM - Post#896032    



  • Browser Said:
Not to hijack, but is it universal around here that zero carb/keto improves blood work?


The typical Western diet is quite high in saturated and trans fats and refined sugars, with fibre and micronutrients in low amounts, and alcohol on top of that.

If a person changes from that to some sort of diet using mostly fresh ingredients, then most people are going to feel better, and the various things doctors use to measure feeling better - blood pressure, cholesterol levels and so on - are probably going to improve, too.

It's much the same as how if a person has been totally sedentary, whether they start walking, running, swimming, cycling or doing kettlebell swings - their resting heart rate will drop, their blood pressure will improve, which are measures of improved cardiovascular fitness.

If a person was previously sedentary and eating a typical Western diet, then any activity, and any food prepared from fresh ingredients, is going to improve their health. This fact lies behind the success and popularity of so many otherwise wacky and odd exercise and diet programmes, like 10,000 swings or keto.

It all works - for a while. The question is what's optimal. And this is my issue with most diet and exercise programmes: sounds great! Now, can you do this for the next ten years?
Athletic Club East
Strength in numbers




Edited by Kyle Aaron on 03-23-20 11:53 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
 
banzaiengr
*
Total Posts: 139
Re: Maffetone...and a clue
03-26-20 02:28 PM - Post#896148    



That could be Steve, I haven't done a study on it. But all of the reliable sources I've seen state below 25-30 g of carbs. Most every one will go into Ketosis at 20 g and some can stay in Ketosis at 35. And you are correct some can get by with as much as 50 g.




Edited by banzaiengr on 03-26-20 02:35 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
 
BntLgr
*
Total Posts: 403
Maffetone...and a clue
03-26-20 02:42 PM - Post#896149    



I am pretty sure, a few years back there was a thread over on the P&B about guys having frequent colds etc. One poster mention D3 and honestly, whether it is, true or not, I swear that since I have beefed up my intake on that vit, I rarely get colds and if I do, they are not as severe.
Be yourself. Everyone else is taken




Edited by BntLgr on 03-26-20 02:43 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
 
Leo M
*
Total Posts: 346
Re: Maffetone...and a clue
03-26-20 02:47 PM - Post#896150    



I don't see a huge impact from higher intensity work like strength training (w/ respect to ketosis). When I bump up my volume of Zone 2 cardio (mainly through hiking), my blood ketones go up, and I get away with more carbs from nuts, veggies, & berries. This reconciles with feedback from a few endocrinologists who claim their Type 1D patients who are heavily involved in endurance work need less insulin than their patients who predominantly strength train. But the potential confounding factors in that analysis are obv numerous.

Leo
ATC Center


 
Browser
*
Total Posts: 390
Re: Maffetone...and a clue
03-26-20 03:43 PM - Post#896153    



  • Leo M Said:
I don't see a huge impact from higher intensity work like strength training (w/ respect to ketosis).

Leo



I can't lift heavy without carbs, even if the calories are equated. Anything less than 300g a day or so and I can feel it in the gym and I rarely go over 3 reps on anything. YMMV and all that, but I can't think of a single strong or jacked person that got that way without eating carbs, sometimes a LOT of carbs. They may have switched to lower carbs AFTER they got big and strong, like some of these guys are doing with veganism now, but it didn't get them that way.
"The trouble about always trying to preserve the health of the body is that it is so difficult to do without destroying the health of the mind."~GK Chesterton




Edited by Browser on 03-26-20 03:56 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
 
Old Miler
*
Total Posts: 1303
Re: Maffetone...and a clue
03-26-20 05:21 PM - Post#896157    



When I did nothing but endurance in my 20s, I was prone to colds when training hardest. As a serious veteran athlete in my 40s, I had a good balance of running with some lifting and felt a lot better.

I then discovered I had had a deviated septum for most of my life, had it drilled straight, and get less nose problems. Touchwood, no cold this past winter at all. So there may be confounding variables...
 
Leo M
*
Total Posts: 346
Re: Maffetone...and a clue
03-26-20 06:32 PM - Post#896160    



  • Browser Said:
  • Leo M Said:
I don't see a huge impact from higher intensity work like strength training (w/ respect to ketosis).

Leo



I can't lift heavy without carbs, even if the calories are equated. Anything less than 300g a day or so and I can feel it in the gym and I rarely go over 3 reps on anything. YMMV and all that, but I can't think of a single strong or jacked person that got that way without eating carbs, sometimes a LOT of carbs. They may have switched to lower carbs AFTER they got big and strong, like some of these guys are doing with veganism now, but it didn't get them that way.




I probably couldn't either. At 42, with various injuries from lifting, BJJ, and other sports, as well as a genetic heart condition (non-metabolic), lifting "heavy" is not my goal. That said, I strength train 3-4x/ week, and do Zone 2 trail running, hiking, or gym based work capacity efforts 3-4 days/ week, all completely fasted for anywhere between 16-20 hours. For instance, today I dragged a sled continuously for 60 straight minutes at the tail end of an 18 hour fast - I'm fairly fat adapted, so the length of the fast has become vapid provided I stay in Zone 2.

Obviously I'm in a different space than many people who are looking to dramatically improve. But it's interesting data, nonetheless.

FWIW - and I'm so self-conscious that I sound like Al Bundy and his Polk High days, I squatted 505 at a BW of 170 as a senior in high school; I still have my training logs and as a fat kid my whole life before that, I was <150g carbs most days, and often <100g. But that was 1995. So, go Polk High!

Leo
ATC Center




Edited by Leo M on 03-26-20 08:42 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
 
GeoffreyLevens
*
Total Posts: 233
03-27-20 11:31 AM - Post#896185    



Influenza not SARS-CoV-2 (Covid-19) but hopeful. I used to get influenza/flu almost every year and colds once or twice from earliest memory until around age 50. Learned about Vit D3 and tested and was very low (despite surfing frequently). Supplemented to mid normal and not had either since, nearly 20 years. And boy, am I knocking on wood saying that!

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC44638 90/
""A colleague of mine and I have introduced vitamin D at doses that have achieved greater than 100 nmol/L in most of our patients for the past number of years, and we now see very few patients in our clinics with the flu or influenzalike illness. In those patients who do have influenza, we have treated them with the vitamin D hammer, as coined by my colleague. This is a 1-time 50 000 IU dose of vitamin D3 or 10 000 IU 3 times daily for 2 to 3 days. The results are dramatic, with complete resolution of symptoms in 48 to 72 hours. One-time doses of vitamin D at this level have been used safely and have never been shown to be toxic""
 
Quick Links: Main Index | Flight Deck | Training Logs | Dan John Deck | Must Reads | Archive | Private Topics
Icon Legend Permissions & Sharing Options Topic options

FACEBOOKFACEBOOK
TWITTERTWITTER
GOOGLEGOOGLE
DIGGDIGG
DELICIOUSDELICIOUS
STUMBLEUPONSTUMBLEUPON
Print topic


1722 Views

Home | Dave's Q&A | IOL Blog | DanJohn.net

What's New | Weekly Columns | Weight Training Tips
General Nutrition | Draper History | IronOnline Forum | IOL Blog | Mag Cover Shots | Magazine Articles | Bodybuilding Q&A | Bomber Talk | Workout FAQs
Site Map | Contact IronOnline | Privacy Policy


Top