01-24-20 06:46 AM - Post#893061    

My aim this year is a bodyweight overhead press. A simple goal.

But first a little history lesson...

I had been experiencing shoulder pain for the better part of a year. The cause...I have no specifics. It could have been benching, could have been poor arm position in low bar squats, over doing pin presses, a bad snatch catch position or poor lowering of the bar in the powerclean or most likely...all of the above. I am also a Graphic Designer so perhaps all the mouse work plays it's part too.

One week I was fine, the next I couldn't put weight overhead without pain and my strength had dropped drastically. It started in the left shoulder then ended up in the right, presumably due to my right side over compensating. I'm right handed, so my right arm, became my weak arm, which was interesting.

So last year I started building myself up again with kettlebell presses, they weren't pain free, but I could press. I did some hangs and eventually got back to chinning pain free. I used press/chin right of passage style ladders for a few weeks here. Soon enough my left shoulder completely recovered, but my right continued to be an issue.

Cut to this year...

So at the beginning of this year, I set myself on the path of the bodyweight overhead press. I knew this goal would force me to fix this pesky shoulder pain.

But this time, instead of reading yet more online articles telling me how fix all the bits and pieces I can't currently name in my shoulder. I let that all go and trusted my own intuition. Trying to remember my own experiences and figure out a logical approach to solve the problem.

So this is what I did/I am doing

Basic strength work with a lean to working the shoulder in different ways.

The one lift a day program| WK1/WK2/WK3

Monday - Barbell Super Strict Press | 5s/3/s/532
Tuesday - Front Squats | 5s/3/s/532
Wednesday - Kettlebell clean and press/chins ladders
Thursday - Powerclean | 5s/3/s/max(ish) single
Friday - Snatch | 3s/2s/max(ish) single

As you can see the weight is over my head in three different ways, throughout the week. I also throw in a few Gobbie's and hangs for a warm up and do it on my lunch break. Love it.

The last piece of my puzzle is perhaps what I think is key. In my teens I was a keen gymnast, I wasn't great but I was good enough.

(Side note: It is amazing how much of it stays with me even now I am in my 30's. I can cartwheel one handed, front handspring, round off etc, even though I do them so intermittently, sometimes once every couple of years. It really is like riding a bike or perhaps akin to learning a language at a young age, which I find fascinating)

Anyway, what is my point? Enter The Handstand

In my often questionable logic I thought 'walking is great for joint/leg health, I walk all the time and my joints and legs feel great...so walking on my hands and the stabilisation required will make my shoudler's feel great.' (I realise how daft that sounds).

But presses and hangs alone were not working. So I figured the only way to really engage and strengthen what ever was weak and painful deep inside my shoulder (deep where my hands could not reach) was to engage the entire shoulder girdle by forcing every part of it to stabilise a heavy weight for a prolonged period of time.

So I practice the handstand daily for about a minute. Initially against a wall, then slowly pushing myself away from it. But now also in any open space I can find without a wall.

I also lower myself from the handstand against the wall, almost down to a headstand, stopping at the most painful part of the movement and really spot stressing that area...yes it sucks, but that reaffirms to me it needs forcing to heal.

Daily handstand practice is a miracle for learning to handstand, literally one minute of practice daily will have you able to balance for longer than you ever thought possible, in a matter of a weeks. Which is just cool.

And now, at the end of week three, just before my Snatch workout, My right shoulder is 95% pain free, I can press, my strength has returned, in the other lifts I am close to matching PR's after only 3 weeks on OLAD...which amazes me. I will occasionally feel a little niggle here and there, but the routine is quickly sorting them out.

I feel the Handstand compliments Hangs in improving shoulder health. Where hangs, loosen and stretch out all the tightness we all have from daily life. Handstands (for me) seem to have stressed what needed stressing, strengthen what needed strengthening and flooded my shoulder with blood for recovery. (Or perhaps that is just how it feels because I am upside down haha).

It seems to be THE factor that has helped me and I just wanted to share my experimental experience incase anyone can gain anything from it.

Now to get after that bodyweight Press.

Cheers all

Will

01-24-20 10:39 AM - Post#893072    

I sure hope this works out for you. My experience with "spot stressing" has been...mixed at best.

Handstands are good though!

Fixing my shoulder pain
01-24-20 12:31 PM - Post#893075    

Overhead pressing can be weird. I can bench several times a week without pain, but overhead pressing hurts my right shoulder, even with just the bar. HOWEVER, push presses/jerks with lots of leg drive feel good. Another variation that doesn't hurt are seated overhead presses leaning back on the bench. Almost like a really high incline press. Maybe give those a try. Strict standing overhead pressing just doesn't work for some people. Glad you found something that's helping!

"The trouble about always trying to preserve the health of the body is that it is so difficult to do without destroying the health of the mind."~GK Chesterton

Edited by Browser on 01-24-20 12:39 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

Re: Fixing my shoulder pain
01-24-20 01:37 PM - Post#893076    

Interesting. What's working for me right now is setting pressing aside and focusing on kettlebell snatches (2 to 4 times per week) while doing Original Strength resets every day. I think the crawling from the latter has the most benefit for me.

"Coyote is always waiting, and Coyote is always hungry."

01-24-20 09:07 PM - Post#893092    

In an attempt to improve shoulder health I instinctively came to and started doing front-to-lateral raises for high reps. I do a front raise, and in that top position then swing arms back to the top of a lateral raise position, then do the negative part of the lateral raise to the bottom, and repeat. Done steadily it becomes kind of a circular or curved movement.

I might use 5 lb plates for 40 reps as part of a warmup for pressing, and do them on off days just for health. They feel good while doing them, but I would probably have to up the frequency to 2-3 times a day to see if I could get a real and lasting rehabilitative effect. I did these for some years, then Bill Starr wrote an article in Hardgainer about shoulder health, and I was surprised to see him suggest this very exercise.

Other people swear by using Indian clubs daily for shoulder health. I've never tried them.

For pressing, instead of using a barbell which forces a pronated grip and so the internal rotation of the arm, a trainee can press with 1 or 2 DBs with a natural parallel or near-parallel grip, or with a log bar or similar device, and some can avoid shoulder pain that way.

01-25-20 11:17 AM - Post#893111    

Get a diagnosis from a health care professional, then do the suggested rehab. I had shoulder tendonitis in September, and its only just clearing up now. Resting it saw no improvement, light repetitive exercise such as airdyne, and eventually swimming and skiierg worked wonders.

Owen Brown, a Biomedical Scientist from Pontyclun, Wales.

01-25-20 02:33 PM - Post#893126    

I have found a few shoulder "truths" over the past couple of years.

1. Passive hanging from a pull-up bar. Three 15 second hangs most every day.

2. Push-ups rather than bench press.

3. One dumbbell or one kettlebell press. Standing with off hand support or from the half kneeling position.

Less is more. The shoulder joint is a complex mess.

Mark it Zero.

01-26-20 06:29 AM - Post#893165    

Thanks for the further suggestions, much appreciated.

12bernd - thanks! So far so good. It amazes me how much of a handstand is wrist work.

Browser - Jerks and push presses didn't seem to work for me. I just ended up with heavier weight in a painful position without much warning. This is why I think the key for me was to purposely move through the painful section of the movement with control. Which the Handstands (and kb presses before that) allowed me to do daily and with minimal stress. I may try the inclines though!

Steve - while reflecting on my experience I had wondered weather crawling may have had a similar effect. I am yet to try them properly as of yet though and handstands were already in my quiver so they came to mind first.

Eric - I tinkered with some raises and they did help somewhat, that was the first time I thought 'if it hurts to do it then maybe that is what I need to do'. And there was improvement. I may try some of the variation you have stated this week.


Pontyclun - sensible advice. After wrestling with it since around June last year I took a couple of weeks off over christmas. As soon as I came back to training it was there. Which is what led me down my current path. Which has seemed to fix it. I definitely need to do some swimming though, thanks for the reminder!

Dan - I do love hangs,they are a great way to actively rest between sets too. I agree with pushups rather than bench press too, in fact someone could probably look at my situation and say that removing benching is what helped me. I've been meaning to try the half kneeling press properly!

Cheers all!

01-26-20 01:08 PM - Post#893175    

An interesting topic and my shoulders have been my 'niggle' for a least the last 6 years. I never used to bench press as my old set up was just an olympic bar and some plates - lots of military presses and patch presses. It never caused pain at the time but I couldn't even press dumbbells at the time without aggravating my shoulder.

I do find lots of motorcycle riding, car driving and computer work aggravate them both - all that hands out in front stuff. I tired a lot of the physical therapy exercises with the light dumbbells but often they seem to aggravate the issue. What has worked for me:

Original Strength type stuff, particularly crawling. I suspect this is the mobility and working those stabilising muscles.

Holding the front support position on rings, whilst not necessarily helps the pain is an excellent way to work the upper body pain free. This is probably similar to the effects of the handstand movement described above. Press ups as above. Hanging seems to help too but pull ups seem to aggravate.

Walking - but really swimming the arms seems to help stretch the shoulder muscles (you need to make sure they go well past the body on the back swing).

I toying with the idea of buying some indian clubs. The aches in the shoulder have forced to me concentrate on my legs and glute muscles - with some positive results!

01-26-20 02:37 PM - Post#893180    

Often times "shoulder" problems are bicep/bicep tendon problems. Obviously monkey bar work along with curls and kettlebell cleans are called for. YMMV

Mark it Zero.

01-26-20 09:09 PM - Post#893190    

• DanMartin Said:

Dan: I am probably being dense, but for the standing version, do you mean the non-working hand should be holding on to something?

Why are you squatting in the curl rack?

Fixing my shoulder pain
01-27-20 12:22 AM - Post#893193    

I'm probably not answering your question proper, but some folks will get a real kick outta this . . .

This Guy, my all time favorite life and lifting coach and philosopher . . .

Click and enjoy -> The One, The Only, J.C. Hise

Check it out no matter. This guy, this guy was miles ahead.
In so many ways, we still haven't caught up to him, in terms of humor, writing about lifting and really,
just sharing our thoughts and above all our experiences.

Sometimes you gotta have three or four legs for him to pull on to get the real enjoyment from his writings.

He was such a beauty in this human form, and he still redeems my faith in humanity.

How does one, really, spell legacy.

Life's too short to worry about longevity.

Edited by Neander on 01-27-20 12:29 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

Re: Fixing my shoulder pain
01-27-20 12:27 AM - Post#893194    

Will, let me ask you a serious question: in a year with shoulder pain, why did you never go to the doctor?

Athletic Club East Strength in numbers

Re: Fixing my shoulder pain
01-27-20 12:32 AM - Post#893195    

Yeah, how come, Brother!

Life's too short to worry about longevity.

Fixing my shoulder pain
01-27-20 12:34 AM - Post#893196    

Will, your post almost gave me shoulder problems just imagining all that there

Monday - Barbell Super Strict Press | 5s/3/s/532
Tuesday - Front Squats | 5s/3/s/532
Wednesday - Kettlebell clean and press/chins ladders
Thursday - Powerclean | 5s/3/s/max(ish) single
Friday - Snatch | 3s/2s/max(ish) single

Only thing you're missing is the "hammer to the rotator" movement.

That is a lot of stress on any man's shoulder workings over a repeating five day period.

Plus, for good measure, "I was a gymnast in the past."

I know, really know that God is great and we are a n exceptional creation, but really, there's a limit to what one can do without screwing up that beautiful gift given.

For me, I'd say you gotta change your mindset from Hare to Tortoise, settle into some slightly saner shoulder workload and enjoy the freedom of not creating injury.

Just a thought, no big thing.

And another worthless thing from me . . .

Before all this drug etc. nonsense was released from hell, do you know how limiting regular lifters were with their efforts? We lost sight of that, and now it's come home to roost and wreck our bodies. Man, you just can't do too much for long once you start lifting hard with enough weight to make a difference beyond the boy stage.

Most doctors, by the way, have no idea who we are, what we do, or why we have to do it.

That's just my limited view, no more.

But Will, you're gonna mess yourself up in time the way you're thinking about lifting.

See line above that one there.

On a lighter note, I've found that the secret to the immortalized bodyweight Press is to
diet down to 100 lbs.

Life's too short to worry about longevity.

Edited by Neander on 01-27-20 12:47 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

Re: Fixing my shoulder pain
01-27-20 06:20 AM - Post#893197    

• Neander Said:

That Hise article was a wild ride :D

(When talking about SLDL he is talking about round back ones, right?)

01-27-20 07:08 AM - Post#893201    

It was a personal choice to avoid the Doctor's office. I suspected Bicep tendonitis as Dan Martin mentioned and figured that if my left shoulder healed up, then my right would. Stupid maybe, but a choice I made and take responsibility for.

Neander, just to clarify I mean sets of 5 one week, sets of 3 the next week and then a 5/3/2 the third week(except for the kb presses where I change the weight each week and just alternate presses and chins fairly leisurely for 30 mins).

So my direct shoulder stress last week was an easy set of 5, an easy set of 3, then a Press double. 25 (total) reps with the kettlebell press and then I worked up to a comfortable Snatch (I am still learning the movement so not pushing any heavy weight, it just allows me to get a bit of extra squatting in the week and a bit of shoulder stabilising, so they get some attention MWF).

Then one minute of handstand practice daily.

I am not suggesting people follow my exact method, far from it. I just noticed that the daily Handstands are the main change and three weeks in I am practically healed.

Thank you for all your comments.

I intend to carry on with OLAD and see how close to a bodyweight press it gets me, week four starts today...going to be a tough one! ;-)

Re: Fixing my shoulder pain
01-27-20 12:41 PM - Post#893220    

• Neander Said:

Thanks, Dale. Awesome article! You have to both see AND grasp the support. Brilliant! This confirms one of the conclusions that I have drawn as a result of many years of careful experimentation and contemplation: Merely looking at the weights is not not nearly as effective as exercising with them.

Why are you squatting in the curl rack?

01-27-20 02:59 PM - Post#893233    

• Adam S Said:

Yes, holding on to the squat rack/power rack for example.

Mark it Zero.

Fixing my shoulder pain
01-27-20 03:41 PM - Post#893236    

• Will Linn Said:

You avoided going to the doctor, also avoided any coaching, and had pain for a year.

I think we can all learn from this.

Athletic Club East Strength in numbers

Edited by Kyle Aaron on 01-27-20 03:42 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

01-27-20 06:50 PM - Post#893244    

You are correct about the doctor only, and for that I have my reasons.

Thanks for the input everyone. I just wanted to share an idea with like minded people.

Good luck with your training. I'll show myself out.

01-27-20 08:34 PM - Post#893246    

• DanMartin Said:

Thanks, Dan.

Why are you squatting in the curl rack?

Fixing my shoulder pain
01-27-20 11:41 PM - Post#893250    

This one didn't go all that well.
Ah, darn it.
But wait . . . there's hope for us . . .

• Quoting:

Bill, show me the studies!

Life's too short to worry about longevity.

Edited by Neander on 01-27-20 11:43 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

Re: Fixing my shoulder pain
01-30-20 10:13 AM - Post#893362    

Any chance of a full link-list compendium of Hise's writings? I always enjoy them. Just to save me the trouble of hunting around the site...

Re: Fixing my shoulder pain
02-04-20 08:09 AM - Post#893679    

• Will Linn Said:

Before you unleash that onslaught :) on your shoulders, please at least check if you have tightness in your levator scapulae and/or teres minor & major muscles.

It's a bit tricky to stretch the levator scapulae but check Youtube for some instructional videos on this.

For the teres muscles, use a foam roller to gently apply pressure to your armpit area and massage it a little bit if you can. You'll notice if the area feels tight and sore. For me, pullups and chinups aggravate this area.

Also, try the landmine press, as it might be easier for your shoulders.

"My grandma Olga, a famous Finnish Powerlifter, once told me, 'Little one, take care of your gastrointestinal tract and it'll take care of you.' Then she struck me with some salted herring." - TC Luoma

02-04-20 12:25 PM - Post#893691    

Thanks The Finn,

My shoulder is fine now. (I think this got lost in all the oversharing fluff present in my original post...lesson learned)

I am sure others will benefit from yours and everyone else's advice though.

Cheers