vegpedlr
Total Posts: 1179
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01-22-19 06:57 PM - Post#876906
Anybody read this have any thoughts about it?
It's one of those concepts that has become used casually to the point where everybody thinks they know what it means, but not everybody is really using it the same way. I thought I knew what it meant, and equated it with mental states associated with sport, yoga, and meditation.
The I read the book over the holidays, and found out it was much more. I've been thinking about it a lot and still can't quite put it all together.
Briefly, the "flow state" is one where you lose yourself in the process, but it doesn't happen at will. The author has done much research on this state, and thinks that he has identified enough of the conditions under which it appears to help facilitate it. It's a sort of existential dilemma that what reliably produces a flow state for one person won't for another. It comes down to what the individual decides is interesting and worth pursuing. It has to be an activity that is demanding enough to require problem solving and developing skills, but not overwhelming. There needs to be a clear goal, enough rules to provide structure, and regular feedback. In a sense, the more like a "game" an activity is, the better the chance for Flow.
But what games appeal to what people is mysterious. For one guy, solving the problem of a solo ascent up El Capitan does it, another guy its building ships inside glass bottles.
Any thoughts?
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Jake Steinmann
Total Posts: 313
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01-23-19 11:29 AM - Post#876945
Never read it, but I really should. I feel like it's one of those works that people frequently "cite", but have never actually read.
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RupertC
Total Posts: 1479
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Great book! Add this one to your wishlist too: https://www.amazon.com/Creativity-Psychology -Discovery-Invention-Pere nnial-ebook/dp/B000TG1X9C /ref=s... The two books go very well together.
If you want to explore flow states you can turn the definition of flow into a checklist (see Czikszentmihalyi, 2008, pp49-66). First of all, are you practicing an activity with clear goals that provides immediate feedback? If you are, you need to:
(1) concentrate on the task at hand;
(2) merge the action and your awareness of the action;
(3) and let go of any sense of worrying about control.
You will know it is working if you lose your self-consciousness, time is transformed and you find the activity becoming intrinsically rewarding.
So, for example, for a few days, you could concentrate on (1) and make sure you are fully in the moment and not worrying about what you are going to buy in the supermarket afterwards. Once you are doing that, move onto (2) for a few days and try to fill your brain with the activity; then (3) and try not to control it for a few days. Once you hit the end, go back to the beginning again. This should keep you going for at least a couple of lifetimes...
If you find yourself getting stuck on any of the points, this book is really good on improving your mental game: https://www.amazon.com/10-Minute-Toughness-T raining-Program-Winning-e book/dp/B001H01MKE/ref=sr _1_1?i...
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Edited by RupertC on 01-24-19 02:18 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Dan John
Total Posts: 12292
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01-25-19 10:02 AM - Post#877049
That book was huge "back in the day." The coaches at the USOC bowed down before it. There is a version that has a lot of track and field guys from San Jose in it...is this the one?
Daniel John
Just handing down what I was handed down...
Make a Difference.
Live. Love. Laugh.
Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude)
Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk.
Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth.
Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights.
Reread great books. Say thank you |
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vegpedlr
Total Posts: 1179
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02-05-19 01:47 PM - Post#877709
Not much on sport applications, just one chapter, "The Body in Flow" which covered sport, yoga, martial arts etc.
What I'm having difficulty integrating in my mind is the author's explanation that clear goals, rules, and feedback are the key. It seems like many sport based flow experiences occur in settings where goals, rules, and even feedback are fuzzy, especially outdoor sports. I'm thinking that those qualities are there, but maybe less clearly articulated than sports with fields, balls, lines, and whistles.
Likewise in life, it seems like open ended pursuits often lack clear goals and rules,,, yet are rewarding.
I may check out the author's other book on creativity, maybe that will clear things up.
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Neander
Total Posts: 7755
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If you do check out the one on creativity, it'd be nice to hear what you think of it.
But yeah, it's paradoxical isn't it.
Life's too short to worry about longevity.
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Edited by Neander on 02-06-19 10:19 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Mark Fenner
Total Posts: 60
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03-10-21 08:16 AM - Post#908701
What I'm having difficulty integrating in my mind is the author's explanation that clear goals, rules, and feedback are the key. It seems like many sport based flow experiences occur in settings where goals, rules, and even feedback are fuzzy, especially outdoor sports. I'm thinking that those qualities are there, but maybe less clearly articulated than sports with fields, balls, lines, and whistles.
So, the way I might explain it (i.e., how I might rephrase that rule -> flow paradox) is like this. You might (or might not!) be familiar with Zen koans -- those infuriating little "riddles". I have a book of them (101 Zen Koans, or something similar).
I'm a pretty bright guy (over-educated might be a better term). I used to be great at Jeopardy (now I hum-and-haw at answers, blah blah). I can often come up with clever ideas ("I'm an idea guy!"). I say that to give context to this:
There is a subset of Zen koans (type 1?) that can be solved by a certain sort of cleverness, logic, or analysis. But, if you think about there being a "low-brow" way to solve koans and a "high-brow" way, the use of cleverness is decidedly "low-brow". You still get the moment of insight (aha!), but you are getting it with cheap laughs. When you try to analyze your way out of the *other* subset of koans (type 2?), you'll fail ... miserably. The other require insight in a manner that equates far more to integrating-the-universe as opposed to dividing-and-conquering.
[I hope someone laughs at the unimaginable irony of *categorizing Zen koans*. I mean really. Do I have no shame? No decency?]
Turning that back to our shared passion: mountain biking. You have to have the proper basic vocabulary of skills, terrain analysis, and physical capacity before you can even attempt to flow on trail of a certain caliber. A raw beginner might achieve a (Zen-like!) happiness simply in the experience of bouncing through a nasty rock garden ... but then again, they might have a sore backside and a broken collar bone. Ratchet that up to someone with experience, and you have to have a developmental process that builds up all the technique (rules!), skills, capacity ... and then throws them all out ... and just f'in sends it. All the formalism become completely integrated, second-nature (even first-nature!) response. And the experience just flows.
There's more too it: if you are mentally ill-at-ease, good luck flowing (the body -- and mind -- are one piece. just like Dan's example of stomping on someone's toe before they try to set a bench press PR .... if I'm having a shite day, trail that I normally own ... can own me). There has to be a certain ability to let-it-all-go and focus-without-effort (focus-without-focusing).
I'm just working through my morning coffee, so feel free to not take any of this too seriously. But, I did read "Flow", I enjoyed it, it's been quite a while (5+ years?). There are a couple other books in that sphere that I enjoyed. I'll try to peruse my bookshelf and find them.
Best,
Mark
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AusDaz
Total Posts: 3611
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ob
Total Posts: 4
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The eminent psychiatrist, Dr Ainslie Meares, used the term "onwards flow" which he shortened to "onflow" to describe the mental state which occurred after a type of meditation in which the mind slows down and stills into calm.
After a little practice, the mind literally slows down and becomes still and afterwards you feel calm. Anyway, Meares was using that term in the mid-1970s around the time that Csikszentmihalyi, a psychologist, started using the term "flow". Csikszentmihalyi early papers mentioned flow in the context of sports people becoming engrossed in their sporting activity and its intrinsic rewards. Unestahl (mentioned by AusDaz), a Scandanavian psychologist, was also working on his method at that time. Csikszentmihalyi's approach was based on psychology, Unestahl's approach is based more on the mental training of hypnotism. Meares started off using hypnotism and transitioned to a type of meditation (it was more effective) decades before Unestahl and Csikszentmihalyi were in similar fields. Meares' taught his method for several decades to many patients, the public and indirectly via his many books but passed away around the time that others were becoming interested in meditation and the careers of Unestahl, Csikszentmihalyi and many others were taking off.
Meares believed that deep relaxation of the body and mind was the key. Unlike many meditation teachers today who advise focus, mindfulness and so on, Meares' believed that the deepest states of relaxation involved a lack of focus, awareness or mindfulness.
Tension, anxiety and fear involve tightening, cramping, and racing, unpleasant thinking, and unrealistic feelings of a need to avoid or flee. Relaxation, calming and the absence of fear involve relaxation, slowing, pleasanter thinking (albeit slowed and slowing) and feelings of security. This is different from the focus of mindfulness. You see, if you are focussed even on one thing, then the mind is not still. In stillness, you know you remain awake but there is little else than that. In Meares' method one relaxes the body, relaxes the mind, allows it to happen and the mind will slow down and still. It takes a little practice but it can be learnt following Meares' instructions. Meares' recommended that people practice 2-3x each of 10-15 minutes daily. His method can be practiced either by itself or within a religious context (ie if a person wished it so).
Meares' also believed that one could learn to let the EFFECTS of his type of meditation carry over into daily living. In other words, one could learn to live calm whilst retaining an active life. The rest and integration from mental stillness assists one to be more efficient and productive during living (outside of meditation). A dull, non-thinking mind outside of meditation would be unhelpful, so it is this quality of calmness that is the way to progress. Learning his type of meditation first, so you are familiar with the onflow is obviously helpful in the next stage of learning to cultivate this onwards flow in daily living. Obviously, this can include sports.
I believe that Csikszentmihalyi and Meares were talking about the same optimal mental state. I find I understand the process best following Meares' conspicuous signposts and plain language explanations that help to see down the path, in the right direction. Most of the explanation above comes from Meares' work and deserves full credit.
EDIT - to correct spelling of AusDaz's name.
Edited by ob on 04-18-21 07:33 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Mr. Kent
Total Posts: 583
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JonZ
Total Posts: 1021
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01-17-22 08:20 PM - Post#916159
That would be me. I have heard of FLOW, but associated it more with athletic performance than a creative process. Like a Reggie Jackson in October thing.
At the end of 2020 I found myself in familiar, decades ago spot, staring at a blank Word document, watching the curse blink. I had to write a paper for a WWII class. The topic was three chapters from a historical account we had read. I picked three chapter From Stuka Pilot by Hans Ulrich-Rudel.
I started research to go with the three chapters. One of the great things about the www, not being fake Bigfoot videos on youtube, but actual archival information, journals, even CIA Dossiers.
Then I must have hit flow. It has been 35 years since I have sat down and the process was smooth, ideas and information came together, I will say I was in the zone (or flow).
I got an A.
Bacon is the gateway meat. - Anthony Bourdain
The world needs fewer business majors and more history majors. - Carl Sagan
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pink.pixie
Total Posts: 5576
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08-14-22 08:52 AM - Post#921171
He is a Swede who has worked with mental training since at least the seventies and indeed branched into sports, NLP etc. He wrote many books and has an active company.
https://www.unestaleducation.se
| Aut viam inveniam aut faciam. |
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pink.pixie
Total Posts: 5576
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If you want to explore flow states you can turn the definition of flow into a checklist (see Czikszentmihalyi, 2008, pp49-66). First of all, are you practicing an activity with clear goals that provides immediate feedback? If you are, you need to:
(1) concentrate on the task at hand;
(2) merge the action and your awareness of the action;
(3) and let go of any sense of worrying about control.
You will know it is working if you lose your self-consciousness, time is transformed and you find the activity becoming intrinsically rewarding.
Right.So my point would be who is that YOU that is supposed to do everything and anything at all? In my experience is is just that YOU (at times called ego) that is the obstacle of the flow.
It is tricky. Partly this issue can be explored in any form of meditation.
Key point: "rewarding activity". Something you want to do. Why? Because than the need for worry and control is possibly lower. You are willing to invest 'your-self' and will if no fear stops you. The total investment of YOU annihilates the YOU to a certain point. There is no doer just the activity that unfolds without thoughts interrupting it yet the presence IS.
It's freeing and quite nice and simple when it happens.
Who is the doer?
The watcher is watching.
Awesome, and yet...again.... who passes the judgements? 
| Aut viam inveniam aut faciam. |
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