02-23-18 08:58 AM - Post#862530    

Here’s some ideas I’ve been playing around with:-

About 30 years ago, I started training for a 134km, 2 day whitewater kayak race that was kind of a big deal in the place where I live. Or at least, I thought so at the time.

That was my first introduction to kayaking in a semi-serious sort of way. I was paddling in a double kayak and we ended up finishing fourth. That was pretty good for a couple of 16 year olds. Later, at the presentations, I met a guy who was an Australian kayaking champion. He told me that I had done pretty well and encouraged me to aspire to more than just this one race.

Suitably encouraged, I got a single kayak and started competing in some flat water races. By then I was 17 and thought that there wasn’t much point in being too concerned about competing in the juniors because as soon as I turned 18, I was going to be in the open division anyway.

So at 17, full of my own potential, I started trying to race against men. It was a rude shock.

Marathon kayaking is tactically pretty simple. It mostly goes like this: You go hard out of the start and burn off as many people as possible. Then you settle into small packs of usually 3-4 boats where everyone alternates between being in the lead and wash riding before finishing with a sprint to the line. But if you don’t make that first pack, your chances of winning are pretty much done and dusted right there.

Sometimes there’s a moment when the elastic band that’s holding you onto the lead pack breaks. You’re desperately trying to cling to the wash that’s coming off the lead boat and you start to drift backwards. As you drift back, the nose of your boat comes up. You desperately try and up your rating to get the nose back down into the trough of the wave your surfing. But you’re lactating up. Your heart rate is redlining. Your breath is rasping. You’re teetering on the crest. And, pop, that’s it. The band breaks, you drop off the back of the wave and you’ve lost the wash and the lead pack.

I used to look at these guys in the lead pack and think they were supermen. I just couldn’t understand how they can stand so much pain. I thought I was weak and if I could just harden up, then next race, maybe, I could hang on to that lead pack just a little longer. Maybe even to the finish line.

A few years later, I had worked my way up to being in the lead pack. And here’s the thing. The guys in the lead pack didn’t have more will power than me. They just had greater capacity. They weren’t hurting at all. They were paddling within themselves. It’s the guys who get dropped off who are hurting. That’s why they’re getting dropped.

So maybe 30 years later, I’ve come to the view that we always perform according to our capacity.

When we compete, we just find out what our current capacity is relative to others. Sometimes that’s a pleasant surprise and sometimes it’s a rude shock.

And capacity is a multi-faceted thing. So maybe we find out when we compete that there is some particular capacity that we need to develop more, like our ability to perform under pressure.

Now I’m not suggesting for a moment that will power is not part of our capacity to perform. It’s the capacity that counts most when you’re at the limit of your other capacities.

In some situations that could be really important. Like when you have a bet with your buddy about who can hold a 9 volt battery on their tongue for the longest. Or it could just be really stupid. Like when you have a bet with your buddy…

Anyone who has exercised semi-regularly has probably had a conversation with someone who says something like “I just don’t have the will power to do what you do” or “I just can’t stick to a program” or whatever. Mostly, I think, “Yep, fair enough”. If I organized my life like you do, I probably wouldn’t either.

Because the thing about building capacity is that you really need to arrange things so that you can make as much progress as possible before you have to start tapping into your reserves of will power.

Want to get up at 5am and exercise every morning? Then probably the best place to start is by having an early night.

Am I suggesting then that you should take the easy road and just not work hard? Not at all. You should train diligently and conscientiously.

I‘m merely suggesting that if you’re working 60 hours a week, getting 4 hours sleep a night, following the cabbage soup diet and find yourself struggling on week 2 of the Quadzilla Blitzreig Squat Program, then your problem most likely isn’t a lack of willpower.

Re: Is will power overrated?
02-23-18 10:30 AM - Post#862534    

So willpower is conducive to your lifestyle. My lifestyle is a calamity then. Some good points you make

02-23-18 10:40 AM - Post#862536    

only if common sense is absent.

02-23-18 10:45 AM - Post#862537    

Common sense isn't that common though

02-23-18 10:56 AM - Post#862539    

Good topic. My first reactions:

1) Willpower is really important, but perhaps not in the way a lot of people look at it. Particularly in the way (for example) the Olympics are covered here in the US, one might get the idea that simply having monster levels of willpower will get you on the medal stand. Well, no.

2) Willpower is one of the things that differentiates similarly-trained and similarly-talented competitors on the day of competition. In that type of situation, the difference between winning and not is very small, and more willpower will give one an edge over the other. But it ain't gonna make Rudy competitive in the NFL.

3) As you said, it's not willpower that will keep you up with the pack of people who are faster and stronger than you. But it *is* a decent bit of willpower, among other factors, that will make you get up early and get your training in so that at the next race your capacity is closer to the guys in the front pack (or whatever is applicable to what you're training for). Willpower isn't going to get you a 500-lb squat if you've never squatted more than 225, but willpower will play a large part in getting you to squat with intent 2-3 times a week for a couple years.

So, to paraphrase/steal something Dan (John) wrote: yes, you need willpower, but willpower is not all you need.

Is will power overrated?
02-23-18 11:42 AM - Post#862542    

I think that will power is not some natural, inborn trait. It's something that you have to build up methodically, through small changes over time.

I used to only have the willpower to go home after work and "veg" in front of the TV with a plate of junk food. Now I spend that time in the gym instead.

FoundationsOfIron.com, an archive of classic strength and physique training

02-23-18 12:48 PM - Post#862546    

I posted the following about Larry Bird and how he made the connection between willpower in the sense of competitive spirit and physical capacity:

Bird wrote a book on basketball training where he refers to "cardio" training.

He uses "cardio" both in the sense of the cardiovascular system and in the sense of playing with "heart" -- always playing with maximum competitive effort.

The idea of "cardio" training is that you can't just play with heart by force of will and competitive spirit; if you are not physically prepared, you won't be capable of playing hard all the time. So "cardio" training enables you to play with "heart."

Bird was known to run constantly, even regularly putting in several mile a day before games on game days during the season.

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; in practice, there is. Just because it happened to you doesn't make it interesting.

02-23-18 01:52 PM - Post#862549    

Ross Enamait has interesting thoughts on this subject: http://rosstraining.com/blog/2015/12/29/motiv ation-is-overrated/

Check out my critical-thinking blog at sharpenyouraxe.substack.com

02-23-18 10:17 PM - Post#862556    

See also: https://www.artofmanliness.com/2018/02/22/secrets-of -greater-endurance/

So another way to look at this might be:

Performance = subjective perception of effort / motivation.

Subjective perception of effort is affected by things like hunger, thirst, injury, the discomfort of a “maximum” (or sorta max) effort.

Motivation is affected by things like whether I have a long term goal, a cheering crowd, etc.

I suppose I’m just suggesting that you should make it as easy as possible to do the things that you should be doing and save your willpower for the last rep rather than using it all just getting to the starting line.

Really, I’m just restating the premise of one of my favorite Dan John articles in my own terms: http://ditillo2.blogspot.com.au/2011/01/free-will-and- free-weights-dan-john.html

02-24-18 12:43 AM - Post#862558    

I think willpower is highly useful in short time frames. Not eating stuff you shouldn't, when it's right in front of you? Willpower is going to get you through.

But anything longer, you need habits. In the long term habits ALWAYS win.

Is will power overrated?
02-24-18 12:54 PM - Post#862569    

Willpower makes me tired. No, really. I get more 'important' stuff done without resorting to it too often. But then, I'm old enough to have redefined 'important' a few times.

In my world, the joy of effort trumps any willpower or habit forming behaviors. So, when life becomes a series of hard, developed habits just shoot me, please.

Let's suppose energy creates energy. We know there's different types of energy, right? Let's call the basic division in energy creation and utilization Good energy and Bad energy. The nose to the grindstone, hammer out habitual behavior style of energy gathering is, to me, Bad energy that won't transfer in the long run to anything more.

Sure, you'll get your 10K time down and impress your pets, if not your loved ones. But in the long run what you create might bite you. Hard to explain . . . but it's my way of seeing and doing things, my opinion of discipline.

If I want something, want to change something in my life, or accomplish some thing before I can't anymore . . . if I really WANT it there won't be any need for discipline or willing it to happen. Hey, I want this and know the road to getting it is more than the accomplishment itself. Not 'breaking' the fragility of getting to that accomplishment means more to me than getting the thing itself done.

Of course, we all see life differently, see it differently at different times in our lives. No one way is the ultimate answer to everything.

I think it's all about using your teeth as a monitor of what you're creating. If you're smiling while you do the thing, okay. If you're gritting your teeth and wailing while you're doing what it takes . . . well, there ya go, something something, sow and reap.

But best to all in the choices they make!

Life's too short to worry about longevity.

Edited by Neander on 02-24-18 01:24 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

02-24-18 01:03 PM - Post#862570    

I've spent my life working on this:
http://ditillo2.blogspot.com/2011/01/free-will-and -free-weights-dan-john.html

Daniel John Just handing down what I was handed down... Make a Difference. Live. Love. Laugh. Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude) Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk. Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth. Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights. Reread great books. Say thank you

02-24-18 01:07 PM - Post#862571    

I like that one of yours, Dan! You're one of the 'freer' minds when it comes to willpower.

Life's too short to worry about longevity.

02-24-18 02:33 PM - Post#862573    

I appreciate a good pun as well as the next guy.

Daniel John Just handing down what I was handed down... Make a Difference. Live. Love. Laugh. Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude) Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk. Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth. Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights. Reread great books. Say thank you

02-24-18 02:44 PM - Post#862575    

• Quoting:

Wait a sec . . . is that a Joseph Goebbels quote?

Life's too short to worry about longevity.

Is will power overrated?
02-24-18 04:13 PM - Post#862579    

Anyhoo . . . the idea that willpower has something like a limit, that there's a certain max amount of willpower available in a given time to each individual, with individual differences of course.

Since willpower uses energy, too much use of willpower will tend to sap energy that could otherwise be harnessed for use in getting the thing done, no?

So, just going to 100% of your willpower stores right off the bat is really pretty inefficient. That's where building joy and elation into the tasks required to reach your goal can come in right handy.

The more joy you can develop during the performance of the necessary tasks, the more energy you will save by not being forced into maximally 'willing' and struggling with what you see as a dislike of the tasks involved. And, of course, joy and elation . . . passion . . . all create energy as opposed to the sapping of it through forcing effort and behavior with willpower. Joy in the doing sees energy returned in multiples, harder/hardheaded grinding away doesn't do that usually until the goal is reached or the undesired tasks are complete. It seems so much like the difference between crawling and running. Coughing and singing. All that energy is there, but it's not being accessed properly.

Let's say someone decides to find his or her personal 'balance' between the two. Using willpower modestly and only when really necessary, all the while building passion for and joy in the doing of those necessary tasks en route to reaching his or her goals.

It all makes sense, provided the person actually has a passion for the thing she's doing. If that's lacking, or the desire to accomplish the task has motives outside of 'true' ones . . . motives like fame, money, pats on the back or filling an internal gap in self-esteem etc., then the things we do become something wholly different. And we wind up in the kind of backward and spiritually primitive society some believe we've created and are continuing to create.

Who knows, eh. A quandary of sorts, on a rock with hardly a soft place.

Life's too short to worry about longevity.

Edited by Neander on 02-24-18 04:27 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

02-24-18 07:03 PM - Post#862583    

The question to me, at least, is understanding all of this. I'm thinking that we may be confusing willpower with the capacity to persevere.

Mark it Zero.

Is will power overrated?
02-24-18 08:24 PM - Post#862586    

Might be!

Willpower: control exerted to do something or restrain impulses.

Persevere: continue in a course of action even in the face of difficulty.

Control could be the key word in willpower. Control exerted.

My view is one that holds that lack of joy in an act based on discipline leads to no place worth living in the long run. Not to say being lazy! Only saying there are ways to achieve something, and then there are ways.

Life's too short to worry about longevity.

Edited by Neander on 02-24-18 08:26 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

02-24-18 09:29 PM - Post#862588    

I’ve always been taken by the dictionary of misunderstood words in Kundera’s novel the Unbearable Lightness of Being. We have to use a shared language to communicate and words have a generally understood meaning or at least a range of meanings that overlap sufficiently for us to understand one another. But the precise subjective meaning (connotations) that words have for each of us can be quite different.

That said, what about goals, sacrifices and motivation, which we might define as something like this:

Goal: the object we set out to achieve

Sacrifice: something we are willing to forego or withstand in the present in the hope of attaining something in the future

Motivation: the strength of our commitment to a goal.

So if we have a goal which we are strongly committed (motivated) to achieving, we might be prepared to sacrifice (forego or withstand) all sorts of things in the present in the hope of attaining our goal.

The sacrifices we are prepared to make in pursuit of a goal might appear to overlap substantially with an exercise of will power or perseverance but I am not sure that they are the same.

Perhaps then we also need to distinguish between different time horizons.

Terms like will power and perseverance might better lend themselves to describing the process of grinding out the last rep or making that final effort to reach the finish line.

Or at least it might be useful to use them in that narrower sense and then to use concepts like goals, motivation and sacrifices to describe longer term processes.

02-24-18 10:28 PM - Post#862590    

The only thing I am sure we are all 100% responsible for is our own attitude. Attitude can never be overrated. I don't know how will power and attitude are related but it seems to me they are. There will not be a conclusive answer here and that is probably part of the mystery of life.
r/
Jim

Is will power overrated?
02-24-18 11:14 PM - Post#862591    

Personally at this time in my life, "sacrifice" is not looked at as a good thing necessarily. "Wanting" to do something, not simply achieve the goal at the end of sacrificing this or that, is the goal in itself. Knowing WHAT to want is important to me. The hunger of being . . . melded with the passion of doing . . . tied together with a double bow of gratitude and compassion. Sound simple? Try it on for size, tough guy.

As always, there's a surface to everything, and a subliminal, peeled back quality to those same things. There's a bush, and there's a burning bush. Activity and epiphany. No reason to believe that doesn't hold true in all things we do.

If you don't really want to 'grind out the extra bit' regardless of the end result your view of life seems lacking to me. If a person has to whip himself to get what he wants he may not really want it. You know the proverb, the saying, the drill I'm sure. When I want it like a drowning man wants air, I will achieve it. And you can't fake drowning when it comes to wants and desires. No way. Some small fraction of that want can be 'drummed up' but it won't be the real deal ever.

That naive but inspired boy in the basement with his plastic weights may have understood this, and no matter how far we travel from that basement it's still there in our soul. The essence, the real part of that experience is ours for as long as we live. Waiting to be seen and felt again.

It's in the reaching we find ourselves, find what it is we truly desire at this point in our lives. What it is we truly desire, and the reasons why we desire those things at different points in our lives define us as people. So truly, our reasons define us.

Give me those who strive for joy, any day, over those who strive simply for the 'things' they believe will bring them joy.

What does a man gain if he lose his soul? And what is it that lifts her soul? Is it the end result of the desire attained, or is it the essence behind the process by which he and/or she engages in seeking the attainment of that goal?

This is all probably too ethereal I guess. But that 'ethereal' quality of life is really all I can consider real.

In the end all we seek is the epiphany, the ability to realize it and the power to get to it repeatedly day after day after day.

So, we are able to look at our training with that in mind.
Or we don't.
All Good!

Life's too short to worry about longevity.

Edited by Neander on 02-24-18 11:36 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

Is will power overrated?
02-25-18 01:26 AM - Post#862592    

I think we are saying much the same thing. Albeit, I defer to the eloquent elegance with which you express it.

But let me pose this question: Is the goal of life the attainment of joy or to find purpose and meaning notwithstanding our inevitable suffering?

Perhaps, it depends what you mean by joy. I suspect that you are using joy in much the same way that I would perhaps use meaning or purpose.

But as you say. All good. We are all somewhere, and we are all on our way to somewhere else.

Righto then, over to the Jordan Peterson book review thread for me...

Edited by AusDaz on 02-25-18 01:28 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

Re: Is will power overrated?
02-25-18 05:25 AM - Post#862594    

One day I will sit my son down in the gym and speak to him.

Fire and wind come from the sky, from the gods of the sky. But Hoffman is your god, Hoffman and he lived in Pennsylvania. Once, giants lived in the Earth, son. And in the darkness of an FDA investigation, they fooled Hoffman, and they took from him the enigma of steel. Hoffman was angered. And the Earth shook. Fire and wind struck down these giants, and they threw their bodies into the waters, but in their rage, the gods forgot the secret of steel and left it on the battlefield. We who found it are just men. Not gods. Not giants. Just men. The secret of steel has always carried with it a mystery. You must learn its riddle, son. You must learn its discipline. For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men, not women, not beasts.

[Points to barbell]

This you can trust.

Athletic Club East Strength in numbers

Edited by Kyle Aaron on 02-25-18 05:26 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

02-25-18 09:25 AM - Post#862597    

Bottom line, quit feeling sorry for yourself and train...

Mark it Zero.

02-25-18 11:16 AM - Post#862599    

Training feels like a waste of time most of the time. I don't know what I'm doing in training or in life

02-25-18 11:54 AM - Post#862602    

Life is overrated

02-25-18 12:00 PM - Post#862604    

• Gareth777 Said:

Hardly, since you only have one to live.

Mark it Zero.

02-25-18 12:35 PM - Post#862605    

Have you had a good life so far?

02-25-18 12:41 PM - Post#862606    

• Quoting:

The alternative's worse.

Life's too short to worry about longevity.

02-25-18 12:45 PM - Post#862607    

Is it?

Is will power overrated?
02-25-18 04:01 PM - Post#862611    

I really can't say for you.
But if you come home from work and find a loved one dead in the living room it's none too happy an evening or three that follow.

Hey, I'm not interested in wasting time going back and forth about whether or not life is 'worth' something to you or anyone else. Honestly, I don't think life cares one way or another what you might think of it, now or ever.

If you feel like feeling better and using movement to do that, there's people here that are usually only too happy to be of some use.

Of course, no one can take the first step for you.
Or any other steps when you come right down to it.

You want something, it's up to you. The internet can't do it for you. Your friends can't. Only you can.

So, what do you want?
Other than getting a permit to hunt flying pigs and harvest their tasty airborne bacon.

Life's too short to worry about longevity.

Edited by Neander on 02-25-18 04:02 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

02-25-18 04:07 PM - Post#862612    

"But if you come home from work and find a loved one dead in the living room it's none too happy an evening or three that follow."

This is why I love this forum. Wisdom just pops up whenever we talk.

Daniel John Just handing down what I was handed down... Make a Difference. Live. Love. Laugh. Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude) Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk. Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth. Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights. Reread great books. Say thank you

Re: Is will power overrated?
02-25-18 05:05 PM - Post#862614    

• Neander Said:

I really like that.
Our goal is to be happy (all the time) how we do this is different and difficult for everyone.

I like this from Art Devany on how exercise can it can improve ones health .
(Does this make my will power stronger?, honest question)

Massive leg muscles.


Olympic speed skaters have massive legs; even smaller skaters do. Why is this so as they appear not to lift weight during their events? I think I have this solved now after noting that the skaters pull 2.5Gs in the turns. At my weight that would be 500lbs of load on the legs in turning. That load, however, is largely eccentric (negative or downward and resisted).


So, they are weight lifting after all; they are resisting negative load, one leg at a time. I would have a 500lb eccentric load on each leg if I could skate as fast as they do. What thighs I would have.


The other question is: why is their upper body so muscular since that would seem to be almost dead weight. Of course, they do a vigorous arm pump in starting, but then they place their arms behind them in a stationary pose. That upper body musculature would appear to be the result of systemic growth signaling from their leg muscles.


MGF and IGF flood the leg muscle cells from their intense activity and stem cells migrate and fuse into muscle cells. AKT is released by mechanical stress on muscle cells (through mTOR) -- yes mechanical stress induces protein synthesis. These growth factors and stem cells enter the blood stream and induce growth of other muscles through circulation, they also rescue or heal damaged organs such as the liver. There are other systemic signals delivered by the endocrine system and the sympathetic nervous system; for example, you induce proteostasis in your brain and other organs. That is why old time body builders tell you that you will get bigger lats or biceps from doing heavy squats; they did not know about systemic signaling, but they were empiricists and learned through trial and error and so discovered systemic signaling before it was understood in biology.

Nice legs-shame about the face

Edited by Andy Mitchell on 02-25-18 07:51 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

Re: Is will power overrated?
02-25-18 05:10 PM - Post#862615    

I can't argue with that.I joined this forum because of the kinship I saw between people. Thanks for the support