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 Page 1 of 2 12
Display Name Post: Body Building for Olympic Lifting        (Topic#32949)
Miles H
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Total Posts: 232
05-27-14 03:13 PM - Post#803548    



Been thinking about this topic a lot lately from some of the other recent posts. What do you think the best exercises would be for an Olympic lifter to apply bodybuilding protocols?

Not in any particular order I would choose:

-Good mornings - low back/hamstrings
-Turkish Getups - shoulder health
-Ab work - vague b/c I don't know what's best
-Tricep press downs - for lockout strength
-Bench Press - variations for chest development/balance

The challenge I think is finding what else you need help with, because many Olympic programs provide a lot of volume to begin with.
 
BrianBinVA
*
Total Posts: 3733
Body Building for Olympic Lifting
05-27-14 03:41 PM - Post#803553    



Miles, have you read Tommy Kono's books? If not, check them out. A guy who won gold in weightlifing and Mr. Universe has to be doing something right!

Also, if you are on steroids, look carefully at the Chinese article Dan John posted -- it lists the exercises. If you're not on steroids, look at Tommy K's stuff...

FWIW, I don't consider good mornings, getups or "ab work" to be bodybuilding exercises, per se. I also think you would get more out of doing blocks of just weightlifting and just bodybuilding than you would out of trying to do a mishmash program, or putting bodybuilding moves on top of a full weightlifting program.
"You are not good enough to be disappointed."

-- Dan John

"I play real sports, not trying to be the best at exercising."

-- Kenny Powers




Edited by BrianBinVA on 05-27-14 03:47 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
 
Dan John
*
Total Posts: 11323
05-27-14 08:12 PM - Post#803566    



I wish I would have done more BB work. I had a great conversation with Bryan today about the importance of hypertrophy...I ignored it and paid a big price.

So, I agree with ANYone mentioning Tommy Kono!!!
Daniel John
Just handing down what I was handed down...


Make a Difference.
Live. Love. Laugh.
Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude)
Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk.
Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth.
Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights.
Reread great books. Say thank you


 
AAnnunz
*
Total Posts: 22638
Body Building for Olympic Lifting
05-27-14 08:33 PM - Post#803569    



Interesting question. I'm not an Olympic lifter, but I've always combined at least some bodybuilding with my powerlifting. For balance & hypertrophy, can't beat the tried and true basics.

In the off season, rotating through the following has worked well for me:

Press, Incline Bench Press, Bench Press
Barbell, DB, Chest Assisted Row
Weighted or Bodyweight Pullup/Chin
Weighted or Bodyweight Dip
Barbell or DB Curl
Olympic (high bar), Front, PL Squat
Conventional, Deficit, Snatch Grip, Stiff Legged Deadlift
Weighted Situp, Ab Wheel, Hanging Leg Raise

If you do more bodybuilding volume in the off season, then cut back when you have to increase your primary lift volume for competition, I think you can prevent burning out.
Be strong. Be in shape. Be a man among men, regardless of your age or circumstances.




Edited by AAnnunz on 05-27-14 08:38 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
 
jp92
*
Total Posts: 520
Re: Body Building for Olympic Lifting
05-27-14 08:53 PM - Post#803571    



The routine below and other matters are discussed in this interview.
Tommy Kono interview

Kono Course

  • Quoting:
Here are the eight exercises that make up The Kono Course (I assume you are familiar with basic weightlifting exercises so an explanation of each is not provided):

(1) situps - 1 to 2 sets of 15 to 25 reps
(2) overhead press - 2 (later 3) sets of 8 to 12 reps
(3) upright rowing - 2 (later 3) sets of 8 to 12 reps
(4) bench press - 2 (later 3) sets of 8 to 12 reps
(5) bent over rowing - 2 (later 3) sets of 8 to 12 reps
(6) squats - 2 (gradually work up to 4) sets of 8 to 12 reps
(7) breathing pullover - alternate with squat exercise for 12 to 15 reps
(8) deadlift - 2 sets of 8 to 12 reps

Additional details of The Kono Course can be found in Mr. Kono’s book "Weightlifting, Olympic Style.



Mr Kono on Olympic style Deadlifts

Mr Kono on Olympic style Squats

It is best to buy the book for all the details. You can buy the book directly from Mr Kono's website

In brief though the routine above is alternated for six weeks with a routine of the same exercises but for 3-5 sets of 5 except situps...and then a cycle of Olympic lifts.

This is just like what Al explained that he did when alternating bodybuilding in the off season for his powerlifting...and as per Brian's recommendation of alternating blocks of time.

Leonid Taranenko interview where he explains how to do good mornings properly for weightlifting

  • Quoting:
Taranenko: I do good mornings with the legs slightly bent. As you begin to lean over, you should feel the pressure (your balance, Ed.) near the hell of the foot. Begin to straighten up as soon as the pressure nears the ball of the foot. This is very important principle when doing this exercise. But, nobody ever things about it. It is very useful to have a strong back for weightlifting. When I was younger, I could lift more in the good morning exercise than in the snatch.



Cheers

JP
 
jp92
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Total Posts: 520
Body Building for Olympic Lifting
05-27-14 09:14 PM - Post#803573    



  • Dan John Said:


So, I agree with ANYone mentioning Tommy Kono!!!



You might enjoy this article I found recently at Stark Centre online archives from May 1953 IronMan celebrating his first Olympic victory.

http://davedraper.com/pdfs/Tommy_Kono_IronM an_May_1953.pdf

Cheers,

JP

PS: If the print is too small, save the PDF pages to your desktop and then increase the font size in Adobe reader.

 
IB138
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Total Posts: 9275
Re: Body Building for Olympic Lifting
05-27-14 10:36 PM - Post#803580    



  • AAnnunz Said:

Press, Incline Bench Press, Bench Press
Barbell, DB, Chest Assisted Row
Weighted or Bodyweight Pullup/Chin
Weighted or Bodyweight Dip
Barbell or DB Curl
Olympic (high bar), Front, PL Squat
Conventional, Deficit, Snatch Grip, Stiff Legged Deadlift
Weighted Situp, Ab Wheel, Hanging Leg Raise




Nice list, Al.
Peace ~ Bear



 
Dan John
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Total Posts: 11323
05-27-14 10:50 PM - Post#803581    



This may have to be a sticky thread. Thanks for those PDFs. Homework!!!!!
Daniel John
Just handing down what I was handed down...


Make a Difference.
Live. Love. Laugh.
Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude)
Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk.
Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth.
Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights.
Reread great books. Say thank you


 
AndrewR
*
Total Posts: 773
05-28-14 01:00 AM - Post#803583    



I've watched Rob Kabbas do bodybuilding work in the off and pre season with lifters. Said it was useful in preventing injuries and rehabbing others.

I also think, as much as we diss bodybuilding, that it's a very age friendly way to lift. Sets of ~10 at ~70% sounds quite like something that is able to be done long term (and not coincidentally also fits in with Meffetone's stuff when you look at HR, but also Dan's stuff about Easy Strength when you compare intensity). I think we'll see a lot of 60-70 year olds able to bodybuild, but not so many olympic lifting or doing Crossfit.
 
Warren D
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Total Posts: 1438
Body Building for Olympic Lifting
05-28-14 06:51 AM - Post#803590    



Met Rob Kabbas in England when he visited Bethnal Green. Very nice guy, and still squatting strong.

This is a great thread. The mass has been falling off me in the past year or two, so I've added a lot of BB work. I like everything listed, but would not be comfortable taking blocks of pure BB work as my technique always needs work.




Edited by Warren D on 05-28-14 06:58 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
 
DanMartin
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Total Posts: 20114
05-28-14 11:21 AM - Post#803608    



  • Dan John Said:
This may have to be a sticky thread. Thanks for those PDFs. Homework!!!!!



Sticky done.
Practice what you suck at.


 
iPood
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Total Posts: 1782
05-28-14 11:38 AM - Post#803611    



  • AndrewR Said:
I've watched Rob Kabbas do bodybuilding work in the off and pre season with lifters. Said it was useful in preventing injuries and rehabbing others.

I also think, as much as we diss bodybuilding, that it's a very age friendly way to lift. Sets of ~10 at ~70% sounds quite like something that is able to be done long term (and not coincidentally also fits in with Meffetone's stuff when you look at HR, but also Dan's stuff about Easy Strength when you compare intensity). I think we'll see a lot of 60-70 year olds able to bodybuild, but not so many olympic lifting or doing Crossfit.



I always wondered what a sensible senior-oriented bodybuilding routine would look like.
"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness
and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums.
It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable.
Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow.
Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't."

Dan Martin


 
DanMartin
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Total Posts: 20114
05-28-14 11:42 AM - Post#803612    



Your training "life" should be a long-term proposition. Certainly, you can focus your efforts for the short term, but the results will be less satisfying.
Practice what you suck at.


 
Neander
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Total Posts: 7316
05-28-14 11:55 AM - Post#803616    



Some stuff here, using quick-lift 'assistance' exercises to gain with -

http://ditillo2.blogspot.ca/2008/05/olympic-assist ance-movements-anthony.html
  • Quoting:

I always wondered what a sensible senior-oriented bodybuilding routine would look like.




Are you talking about 60+ bodybuilding?
That would make a great discussion topic on the Flight Deck forum.
Here:
http://www.davedraper.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?fid/4/tid/32954/pid/8 03615/post/last/#LAST
The man you are going to be is a Man standing on top of a mountain
made of the dead versions of yourself.




 
iPood
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Total Posts: 1782
05-28-14 12:41 PM - Post#803624    



  • Neander Said:
Some stuff here, using quick-lift 'assistance' exercises to gain with -

http://ditillo2.blogspot.ca/2008/05/olympic-assist ance-movements-anthony.html
  • Quoting:

I always wondered what a sensible senior-oriented bodybuilding routine would look like.




Are you talking about 60+ bodybuilding?
That would make a great discussion topic on the Flight Deck forum.
Here:
http://www.davedraper.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?fid/4/tid/32954/pid/8 03615/post/last/#LAST



I kinda tend to forget that there are more forums here.
"I think we often spend too much time focusing on max fitness
and not nearly enough on maintaining our minimums.
It seems we need to think sustainable rather than obtainable.
Meaning whatever we do today, we can do it again tomorrow.
Never taking so much from ourselves that we can't."

Dan Martin


 
BrianBinVA
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Total Posts: 3733
Re: Body Building for Olympic Lifting
05-28-14 01:05 PM - Post#803626    



  • Warren D Said:
I like everything listed, but would not be comfortable taking blocks of pure BB work as my technique always needs work.



Warren, have you tried? You might be surprised how little technique you lose, and how much your body liked the layoff. . .
"You are not good enough to be disappointed."

-- Dan John

"I play real sports, not trying to be the best at exercising."

-- Kenny Powers


 
AAnnunz
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Total Posts: 22638
05-28-14 07:47 PM - Post#803651    



  • AndrewR Said:
...as much as we diss bodybuilding, that it's a very age friendly way to lift. Sets of ~10 at ~70% sounds quite like something that is able to be done long term (and not coincidentally also fits in with Meffetone's stuff when you look at HR, but also Dan's stuff about Easy Strength when you compare intensity). I think we'll see a lot of 60-70 year olds able to bodybuild, but not so many olympic lifting or doing Crossfit.


Quick lifts and Crossfit are tough on older guys, but there have been a fair number of us who were able to keep powerlifting into our late 60s.

You're right about bodybuilding. If volume and intensity are modified in accordance with what your body is telling you, you can keep it up until you are on the other side of the grass.
Be strong. Be in shape. Be a man among men, regardless of your age or circumstances.


 
Browser
*
Total Posts: 325
05-29-14 11:19 AM - Post#803694    



Doing both lifts plus either pulls or squats twice a week is about all I can handle. One other day a week of bodybuilding seems to help my recovery and keep me feeling good without taking anything away from the lifts. This is just stuff for a pump and a burn without caring about sets and reps and weight; leg extensions and curls, db rows, pushups, kb presses, arm stuff, situps, light carries, etc. It is important to keep this light enough that it doesn't dig a recovery deficit. Taking time off for high volume in the big lifts to build mass as Kono suggests would probably help, but I can't make myself stick to it. I began life as a bodybuilder and even competed in a couple of shows about 15 years ago. I keep 80% of that mass just doing the lifts and light pumper stuff. Not sure if you are over 40, but this is a good thread: http://www.davedraper.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/24146/

This edition of the sadly defunct Get Up newsletter also had a good article about adding in extra stuff like cheat curls and triceps pushdowns: http://danjohn.net/pdfs/709.pdf
"The trouble about always trying to preserve the health of the body is that it is so difficult to do without destroying the health of the mind."~GK Chesterton


 
Warren D
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Total Posts: 1438
Re: Body Building for Olympic Lifting
05-29-14 04:13 PM - Post#803722    



  • BrianBinVA Said:
  • Warren D Said:
I like everything listed, but would not be comfortable taking blocks of pure BB work as my technique always needs work.



Warren, have you tried? You might be surprised how little technique you lose, and how much your body liked the layoff. . .




I've spent extended periods without access to a platform since September, and I used the time to get in a lot more accessory work. When I did get platform time, it wasn't great for a while. But I've not run any of TK's plans because I don't program for myself. Three days per week are laid out by my coach, and the rest is a more bodybuilding and kettlebell work. A year or two back I would spend my off days squatting more and more, but right now leg strength is not limiting me.

I've found that I get a lot out of frequency. Doesn't have to be super heavy or volume or both (although these happen at times) but the closer to daily I get the better I operate. This has been true of squatting, pullups, pressing and every other exercise I've applied myself to.

Great thread so far, and really liked Miles' opener. I've recently started a weightlifting club and everyone is a late 20s to early 40s desk jockey. A couple of them asked me what they can do for their mobility. I'll be teaching the TGU this Saturday - a nice catch-all and starting point.


 
Terry Gibbs
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Total Posts: 1557
05-29-14 06:27 PM - Post#803730    



My first coach Jon McCaul gave us Press, back neck press, upright row, bent over row, curl, reverse curl, standing triceps curl,

but mainly work press, bent over row (this was 1970 and pressing was so important)

he had never squatted in his life, and did not recommend deads we were all skinny 16 year olds.

we did however do lots of split cleans

I of course stayed on that until I read my first Iron Man & Strength and Health a few months later. A training partner Ian Childs stayed on it for a year, and won the nationals at 21. Ian was a very ordinary kid athletically when young, good speed but very average everywhere else.

Since then I have always moved people young and old slowly into specialisation

why did I not stick longer, well I thought John was behind the times, sure he had snatched within 10kg of a world record but that was ancient history, it was 20 years ago, today I marvel at anyone ever getting near a wr, .. ahh the arrogance and ignorance of youth, ...what is it they say, ..youth is wasted on the young ??
"We all overtrain" Pat Casey to George Frenn


 
DanMartin
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Total Posts: 20114
05-30-14 09:19 AM - Post#803762    



I would take a break from powerlifting by running and doing bodyweight exercises. (dips and pull-ups) And then return to lifting by doing Bill Starr's Big Three. (power clean, narrow grip bench press and full squat) While that isn't bodybuilding as we understand it, it was a break and it allowed my body to recover/refresh.
Practice what you suck at.


 
Matt Lentzner
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Total Posts: 685
06-02-14 03:23 PM - Post#804007    



I've been on Convict Conditioning since I flamed out on the 10k challenge in March.

The program Wade recommends is easy compared to how I've trained in the past. Basically two works sets of each exercise once per week. It's very body-builderish in that he recommends a slow tempo that really gets a burn going. Reps typically start at 5 and you work up to 20 and then start at 5 again on the next progression.

I feel good most of the time and I don't seem to have lost any strength. It's weird.

I intend on staying on this 'easy' program until I stall out. I've never stopped a program because it was not enough stimulation so I want to see how long I can ride this.
 
Old Miler
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Total Posts: 1142
06-02-14 06:28 PM - Post#804023    



  • Matt Lentzner Said:
I've been on Convict Conditioning since I flamed out on the 10k challenge in March.




Matt, can you share anything more? I haven't come across anyone else who has actually done this.
how did you start off and how fast are you taking it? I can imagine a lot of people wouldn't have the patience to spend the requisite time on the easier exercises. And do you do anything else on top? Two sets of pressups, one day a week, sounds really low.

Thanks
 
Matt Lentzner
*
Total Posts: 685
06-02-14 07:35 PM - Post#804028    



Old Miler,

I'll start a new thread on it. I don't want to completely sidetrack this one.
 
jp92
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Total Posts: 520
Warren D
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Total Posts: 1438
06-11-14 03:32 AM - Post#804684    



...and then they removed the press.


 
Miles H
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Total Posts: 232
06-15-14 04:36 PM - Post#805003    



I've been doing the Tommy Kono workout that was posted above in this thread for the past two weeks.

Started very light on everything, and have slowly been adding weight each workout. Been doing 2x12s for pretty much everything. Weights are starting to become challenging.

My idea was to do 2 weeks at 2x12, 2 weeks at 2x10, and 2 weeks at 3x8. However, looking at my weekly volume (poundage), I'm realizing that I will need to do 3x10s instead of 2x10s. Or else I would have to significantly increase the weight used per exercise in order to maintain weekly progressive overload.

Is this pretty much on the right track? Week 1 volume was 36,330lbs, Week 2 was 49,170. I would like to steadily increase this number per week. I'm thinking that I will end up needing to do 3x10s and then 4x8s to keep the rough number of reps close to 30. This will let me continue to slowly increase weight per exercise. Then switching over to 5x5s for the second 6 week block.

Current weight per exercise with 2x12 rep schemes are:

Overhead Press: 75lbs
Upright Row: 75lbs
Bench Press: 110lbs
Bent Row: 110lbs
Back Squat: 145lbs
Breathing Pullover: 35lbs
Deadlift: 165lbs

I'm doing everything in O-lift shoes and trying to hold the bar in a clean grip for all the pulls. Hardest exercise is the upright row. Hardest mental thing is using weight this light in a public gym. Have to put away the ego to bench press 110lbs with slow deliberation...
 
jp92
*
Total Posts: 520
Body Building for Olympic Lifting
06-15-14 05:39 PM - Post#805008    



Miles

I wrote and asked Mr Kono the following question when I purchased his first book:

Q - Are the sets listed for the Kono Plan on pages 71-72, the work sets? ...this is how I have interpreted it (and I need to do a warm-up set or two). For example, I do a warm-up set and then do three sets of eight with my chosen weight. Similarly if I am doing say five-rep sets for the Press, I do one or two warm-up sets of five reps with lighter weights and then do five work sets with my chosen weight.

Mr Kono responded as follows:
A - If you feel you must take a light, warm up weight, you can before performing the 3 sets of the exercise. But, you can take a lighter weight for the first set and perform as many as 12 reps followed by a heavier weight for 8 reps for 2 sets. Three sets should pump your the muscles up and be taxing on the 3rd set.


But the main thing Mr Kono stresses in both books is the mind. It is also what Peary Rader the editor of the original IronMan stresses at the end the end of the 1953 article attached above.

I have posted this link before but as this is a sticky thread do so again:
2012 Speech transcript

  • Quoting:
I thought this sport is for me—weightlifting. Not weight training alone, but weightlifting, and so I really became serious in training with barbells. And, believe it or not, I progressed so rapidly that, within 26 months, I had totaled what they say was 780 (pounds). The World’s Championship that year was won with 777. So I had actually totaled more than the World’s Champion. That’s in 26 months.

And how did I do it? I did it because I believed that I should improve all the time, from contest to contest. There was no reason I couldn’t do any better, because Hoffman—I’ve been reading Hoffman’s Strength and Health magazine, and he mentioned the fact that you’re supposed to be improving. So, I projected ahead, and I competed, and I won all the contests I entered.

So, anyway, that was my beginning, and I thought what the mind can conceive, you can achieve. It’s all in the mind.



One extra thing regarding Upright Rows...I would caution against using a clean grip and suggest going a little wider.

This is a quote from Craig Ballantyne from Men's Health that explains why:
"A slight difference in grip can change this lift from a surefire shoulder-breaker to a safe stimulus for massive delt, trap, and biceps growth. In a typical upright row, you use a shoulder-width grip to pull the bar to your neck. This can cause what's called an impingement of the nerves in your shoulder, a painful and slow-healing injury. But by using a wider grip, you allow the muscles and tendons around the shoulder joint to move freely, preventing any grinding and putting you in a position to lift more weight."

Basically in the top position your arms should make a 90 degree angle. The way I do this is to just pull to the lower chest (not all the way to the chin).

Cheers,

JP
 
Miles H
*
Total Posts: 232
06-15-14 06:35 PM - Post#805009    



JP,

Thanks for all the additonal info! And I didn't even think about steping the weight between sets. So far, I was planning on keeping the weight the same across all sets, but stepping it would create in interesting variable. I'll think on it.

And yes, I had the same concern about the upright rows. My clean grip is slightly wide (for a clean). About thumb distance from the start of knurling. And what you describe is basically what I do, as far as pulling to the bottom of the rib cage.

The way I see it, all of these movements are really "accessories" to the olympic lifts and so, for the upright row I might as well pull with my clean grip, and only pull as high as I would before turning my wrists over to catch a clean.
 
Dan John
*
Total Posts: 11323
07-22-14 02:49 PM - Post#807371    



What a great thread.

I had this idea that Mass Made Simple followed by Tommy's eight week peak might work for those of us who are mortals. Just thinking out loud.
Daniel John
Just handing down what I was handed down...


Make a Difference.
Live. Love. Laugh.
Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude)
Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk.
Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth.
Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights.
Reread great books. Say thank you


 
gm
*
Total Posts: 37
08-22-14 03:36 PM - Post#809786    



Can you say more, Dan.
You had wished you did more bodybuilding in conjunction with o-lifts? Why?
Why is it advantageous to have mass for performance lifts--is it a simple case of more fuel in the tank?

Thanks
Gwen
 
Gabster
*
Total Posts: 4382
08-22-14 03:49 PM - Post#809788    



I have to like Dorian Yates and his look at it, went into hiding hit it really hard used lots of drugs to get him there and talked/s about it...

Very honest, something that is missing as a rule...Mass is not simple to make...Simple... Takes years


"I live, I lift, I ache, I am." -
"I don't mean to be rude, but...junk is for jerks"
"No pain, no gain' isn’t a nursery rhyme, and 'only the strong survive" ...Etc...
Had to put in this quote...
Current Quote
"Eat better, train harder, be tougher, think surer and rest morer."
~ Draper
Dave Draper
****
Age 73
Semper Fi...
GAB


 
jp92
*
Total Posts: 520
Body Building for Olympic Lifting
09-15-14 04:08 AM - Post#811302    




In October 1955 in Munich Germany, Tommy Kono won the world title in the light heavyweight (82.5kg) class. After the World Weightlifting Championship was over, he also won the F.I.H.C. Mr Universe.

 
Stef
*
Total Posts: 1926
Re: Body Building for Olympic Lifting
09-15-14 10:13 AM - Post#811313    



Great thread!
I'm coming from the other direction bodybuilder using olympic lifting.

I've just started with the OL-lifts and having the time of my life!
Getting better at not overdoing things!


 
blkjss
*
Total Posts: 2211
09-16-14 10:52 AM - Post#811384    





  • Terry Gibbs Said:
My first coach Jon McCaul gave us Press, back neck press, upright row, bent over row, curl, reverse curl, standing triceps curl,



Hi Terry, what's standing triceps curl?
My training log


 
Stef
*
Total Posts: 1926
09-21-14 02:46 AM - Post#811671    



  • blkjss Said:


  • Terry Gibbs Said:
My first coach Jon McCaul gave us Press, back neck press, upright row, bent over row, curl, reverse curl, standing triceps curl,



Hi Terry, what's standing triceps curl?



I'm not 100% sure about this but I think it is BB french press.
Getting better at not overdoing things!


 
jp92
*
Total Posts: 520
Body Building for Olympic Lifting
09-27-14 01:25 AM - Post#811972    



I recently emailed Mr Kono the following query:

In your first book Weightlifting Olympic Style in the section detailing your "Basic Training for Olympic Lifting", on page 70 (the very last sentence) you wrote: "I find a change of course is necessary after six to eight weeks on a specific course".

On page 71 (in the third paragraph) you write: "Alternating three different workouts can be very result producing and leaves boredom out".

My questions are:

1) How will a lifter keep their snatch and clean & jerk technique honed properly so they don't lose efficiency, when he trains on the Kono (bodybuilding) course for six to eight weeks using 8 repetitions and then the Kono (strength) course for 5 repetitions for another six to eight weeks?

2) Should the lifter be doing some snatches and clean & jerks at say 70-80 percent of maximums in these two general training periods to keep technique sharp?


This is Mr Kono's reply verbatim:

(quote)
Once you learn good lifting technique it stays with you so a break from the lifting training is good for you. This is especially true after an intense concentration on a lifting program for a contest.

The three phase program I refer to are: 1) General Conditioning (pumping up with 8 to 12 reps), 2) Power Training (3 to 5 reps with heavier weights and more sets), and 3) Training on the competition lifts plus additional leg work.

You can add a few lifts in your workouts if you feel you need to. I have known a lifter with excellent technique that gave up training for 10 years and in their very first training session the lifter showed better technique than everyone in the gym that never paid attention to detail of good lifting technique from the beginning.

The important thing is that you do not take technique for granted. Anytime you lift always think in terms of good technique. In other words consider yourself an athlete and not a strong man and have your mind focused on performing the lifts as perfectly as you can.
(unquote)



Cheers,

JP
 
jp92
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Total Posts: 520
Re: Body Building for Olympic Lifting
09-27-14 01:56 AM - Post#811973    








Recently just prior to Mr Kono's 84th birthday, Pierini Fitness conducted the following:

Interview


After the annual Tommy Kono Open in Sacramento, Mr Kono usually conducted a seminar at Bodytribe Fitness. The video links were to a two-part seminar from Chip Conrad of Body Tribe, originally on his site.

After Mr Kono died, Chip then put them on YouTube at these links:

Part 1
https://youtu.be/Hc7FeP8kcjI

Part 2
https://youtu.be/J-izCkc8slU


Cheers,

JP

Disclaimer: I am not in any way connected to Bodytribe Fitness.



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Ville
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Total Posts: 2264
Re: Body Building for Olympic Lifting
10-15-14 11:58 AM - Post#812864    



Thank you for posting, jp92, very interesting.

Has anyone tried the Kono block periodization then? How did it work out?

This is a constant dilemma that really bugs me. Even Kono's response leaves it slightly unclear, because I might not have good lifting technique. How do I know if I have good enough technique to warrant taking 12 weeks off the Olympic lifts?

Time is another issue. If I would do the two Kono courses, and add some light technique work to the beginning of each session, I doubt that I'd be able to do the workout within 90 mins. So then I end up modifying the Kono course because of time limits. Then it might not work if you modify it, etc.

I know that doing blocks of 8-12 reps does make me feel better, so I think I just have to give in... I'm not an Olympic weightlifter anyway, so who cares.
My workout log


 
jp92
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Total Posts: 520
Re: Body Building for Olympic Lifting
10-15-14 02:50 PM - Post#812873    



Ville,

From your workout journal, you have recently started online coaching for your snatch technique...just stick with that until you are satisfied with your technique.

Maybe then pick a local competition and follow Mr Kono's training plan at that time. The best advice is to do the program as he outlines in his books.

The key to Mr Kono's program is to also strengthen your mind as you strengthen your body and refine your technique. He is the only Olympic weightlifter in history to set world records in four separate weight classes. His program is not just a series of sets and reps...but training both mind and body. If you haven't read Mr Kono's second book Championship Weightlifting then now is the time...if you have previously read it, then now is the time to re-read.

If you don't yet own a copy, it is available directly from Mr Kono's website

Cheers,

JP
 
Ville
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Total Posts: 2264
Re: Body Building for Olympic Lifting
10-16-14 04:30 AM - Post#812898    



  • jp92 Said:
From your workout journal, you have recently started online coaching for your snatch technique...just stick with that until you are satisfied with your technique.


Thanks, good advice. When life gets stressful, my mind starts to wander.

Just as an aside, starting the online coaching is the best thing I could have done for my lifting. I use a camcorder to record my lifts (also squats) and the amount you can learn is amazing. My coach is trying to keep things simple and we work on just one or two things at a time. I've also learned a few things about my body, e.g., I've got long femurs.

  • jp92 Said:
The key to Mr Kono's program is to also strengthen your mind as you strengthen your body and refine your technique. He is the only Olympic weightlifter in history to set world records in four separate weight classes. His program is not just a series of sets and reps...but training both mind and body. If you haven't read Mr Kono's second book Championship Weightlifting then now is the time...if you have previously read it, then now is the time to re-read.


Thanks, I've got both of his books. I'll re-read them.

Sorry for the derail of this fantastic thread!
My workout log


 
jp92
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Total Posts: 520
Re: Body Building for Olympic Lifting
05-04-15 12:42 AM - Post#822740    




Tommy Kono doing a handstand supported overhead by fellow 1952 Olympian Clyde Emrich.
The same Clyde Emrich who in later years was also a long-time strength coach for the Chicago Bears in the NFL.


One of Mr Kono's maxims for the weightlifter "is consider yourself an athlete and not a strong man".

Stars & Stripes story on Tommy Kono's return to army life after his 1952 Olympic victory

November 2014 Interview with Bob Whelan
He talks about his bodybuilding training (in general without specifics) and contests.

Some training wisdom for Olympic lifting from Tommy Kono

Cheers

JP
 
AndyMcL
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Total Posts: 51
Re: Body Building for Olympic Lifting
05-30-15 08:36 AM - Post#823744    



Bit of a bump here, but I read this article by Greg Nuckols a few days ago and it really reminded me of this thread.

Powerlifters Should Train More Like Bodybuilders

Basically, it talks about how one of the best ways to increase long term strength is to increase muscle mass. One of the best ways to increase muscle mass is by training like a bodybuilder. So in the offseason traditional bodybuilding methods are great, help increase mass and work capacity, and then follow a peaking plan.

Greg has a 755 squat, 475 bench and 725 deadlift, so he's certainly not a scrub.
https://coach-andy.squarespace.com/blog


 
IB138
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Total Posts: 9275
Re: Body Building for Olympic Lifting
05-31-15 01:06 AM - Post#823772    



Kaz trained much like a bodybuilder.
Peace ~ Bear



 
jp92
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Total Posts: 520
Re: Body Building for Olympic Lifting
05-31-15 05:36 AM - Post#823780    



In 2004 the late US coach Jim O'Malley wrote of the differences between Olympic weightlifting and powerlifting.

  • Quoting:
I would not say that PL is better or worse than OL, it is just different. It requires a different type of strength than OL (absolute vs. explosive). When someone deadlifts a heavy weight the goal is to overcome the inertia of the weight and then to just keep it moving while in OL you have to accelerate the weight in order to effectively move under the bar.

There is no correlation between the ability to display great strength and the ability to display it quickly.

Kirk Karwoski (many times world powerlifting champ) trained at the same gym as I did (Maryland Athletic Club in Beltsville Md) from 1990 to 2000. Karwoski was incredibly strong. Over the years I saw him perform such feats as squat 1,000 lbs for a double (he weighed only 275lbs), deadlift 750lbs for a triple, incline press 425lbs for five reps, and bench 600lbs. And by his own admission, he was atrociously bad at OL. If he was lucky he could snatch 90kg and C&J 120kg but he himself realized that the type of strength needed to excel in OL was in complete contrast to the type of strength he had developed over the course of his powerlifting career.

In the mid 70's I was an 82.5kg OL and I trained with two other guys in the same weight class for two years. They were Al Starck (originally from Central Falls and a student of Joe Mills) and Fred Hatfield (now perhaps better known as Dr Squat).Fred was tremendously strong. He did pulls and squats with very heavy weights but they were weights that bore no relation to what he could actually snatch or C&J. Al, on the other hand, did none of this. Fred was certainly much stronger than Al was, but in terms of speed and explosiveness there was no comparison. Fred never even came close to beating Al in any OL contest. His method of training was detremental to the type of strength he needed to succeed at OL, but not for PL. I do not think it was a coincidence that Fred later went on to become a top level powerlifter and to squat 1000 lbs at age 45.



Jim O'Malley was an advocate of the system devised by Robert Roman, former USSR national coach and then professor at Moscow State University. Jim outlines his adaption of that system outlined in Roman's classic text The Training of the Weightlifter here.


Two of the most famous national coaches of the 1960s: Robert Roman (USSR) and Tommy Kono (Mexico).
Tommy Kono was Olympic coach for Mexico in 1968, West Germany in 1972, and the U.S. in 1976.


Cheers,

JP
 
Czar
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Total Posts: 22
12-24-15 03:17 PM - Post#831025    



  • Dan John Said:
I wish I would have done more BB work. I had a great conversation with Bryan today about the importance of hypertrophy...I ignored it and paid a big price.

So, I agree with ANYone mentioning Tommy Kono!!!



What sort of price, Dan?
 
jp92
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Total Posts: 520
Tommy Kono Back Drill
02-25-16 09:22 PM - Post#833541    



Via Jed Smith from USA Weightlifting

  • Quoting:
My favorite tool for safety and teaching proper back management is a drill I learned from Tommy Kono.

We call it the Tommy Kono Back Drill.

1) The athlete sits at the edge of a chair or bench, places hands on the knees, inhales and fills their stomach and chest with air, creating a nice fluid ball around their spine.
2) The athlete proceeds to raise their chest towards their chin while pulling the scapula together.
3) They close their glottis and hold their inter-abdominal pressure for about 5 seconds.
4) Repeat for about 3 to 5 sets of 5 second holds.

A lot of lessons in this drill, but what I like most is the kinesthetic awareness the athlete now has to manage his or her back.

If I say “Tommy Kono Back”, they all know what that feels like and can duplicate in a lift.

 
jp92
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Total Posts: 520
Tommy Kono Olympic Champion
03-06-16 09:05 AM - Post#833879    



Original six-page profile of Tommy Kono after his first Olympic Gold Medal from IronMan May 1953 issue.


http://davedraper.com/pdfs/Tommy_Kono_IronM an_May_1953.pdf

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jp92
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Total Posts: 520
Think and Lift
03-13-16 06:47 AM - Post#834145    



From the December 20, 1954 issue of Sports Illustrated:

  • Quoting:
Another positive thinker, whose middleweight and light-heavyweight lifting records are almost as impressive as those of heavyweight Schemansky, is Tommy Kono (next page), a soft-spoken Japanese-American with cat-quick reflexes and the title of The Most Beautiful Athlete in the World.

Concentration, to Kono, is the essence, although he admits to greater awareness of muscle than Schemansky.

SILENT ROOM

"While you're walking up there to the bar, you try to think of what you have to do. You try to concentrate to eliminate any noise going on. When I get there, I try to have a positive attitude. I try to think of myself lifting it—whether my back breaks or not.

"If I concentrate hard enough, it's actually like being in a room all by myself. There's darkness all around, and all I have is the weight before me. If I'm nerved up for the effort, I feel the weight for the first three or four inches. After that, I don't feel the weight at all."

That, apparently, is all there is to it. Concentration, darkness; then think—and lift, just a little.



The full article is attached below in PDF (both landscape and portrait). It also includes Tommy Kono performing the squat clean & jerk and Norbert Schemansky performing the split snatch and the clean & press.

http://davedraper.com/pdfs/Think.pdf

http://davedraper.com/pdfs/ThinkandLiftland scape.pdf

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Dan John
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Total Posts: 11323
03-13-16 12:33 PM - Post#834155    



That's cool. Sad that magazines don't do this anymore.
Daniel John
Just handing down what I was handed down...


Make a Difference.
Live. Love. Laugh.
Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude)
Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk.
Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth.
Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights.
Reread great books. Say thank you


 
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