Hello all, a little over a year ago I purchased MMS mainly because it's Dan John, guy writes quality stuff. And of course I wanted to fix my squat. I went through the program and started off really well after I completed it but somewhere along the line I developed horrible form again. Maybe I tried to add too much weight too soon.
I forward lean way too much, I do have fairly long legs and a short torso, but it's pretty bad. I really have trouble sitting back. So here I am again.
Here is a vid to show what I'm talking about
You can see how my back does that little tuck as well.
So this is my plan of attack, do the program again, I also plan on watching Dan John's video on the squat with the fitcast guys again. But this time I will do the MMS program. I think the progression to the 20 rep squats is light enough that I won't fall into the same bad habits right away but intense enough (obviously) to be tough as hell.
Only thing is that I'm right in the middle of a cut so I'll probably do some Goblet squat workouts until I'm ready for MMS.
So I'll post my results here and treat it as a log I guess, won't put specifics down just how it went. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
Edited by Eric R on 07-14-12 03:19 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
Been doing them still, the goblets. Pretty much everywhere I look to says the lower back must remain flat an neutral, as this could potentially mess up your back. I just can't seem to do it.
I know you mentioned it looked fine but if you look at my lower back you can see how it starts to round as it goes to parallel, completely rounding as it goes to the bottom. I might ask a specific question about this in the thread but someone just started a Deep Squats thread so I'll wait for some responses there.
Yeah, the videos help a lot. I work with what you are doing literally every workout I have groups. Most people have seen me stand behind someone, wedge my ankle into their lower back and guide them into a deeper position.
I would recommend doing the door knob drill and just practicing sitting deep. Your movement is very good and all the suggestions here are excellent. One small thing: you are fine, that is a good squat. "Better" might not be better...
Daniel John
Just handing down what I was handed down...
Make a Difference.
Live. Love. Laugh.
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Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk.
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Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights.
Reread great books. Say thank you
What has helped me recently was learning how a tight lower back feels like (with Supermans, for example). Then I would stand up, arch & tighten the lower back and sloooowly pull myself down (or imagine trying to push something down with your buttocks). Concentrate in pulling yourself down, while maintaining the feeling of contraction in the lower back. It is a slow movement. I practice this occasionally during the day, I squat down on the first step of the staircase or while holding on to something.
I also use a foam roller to judge my squat depth. When I do squats, I touch the roller lightly in the bottom position and then go back up. Go as far down as you can keep the lower back safe. You might have to start higher first and gradually work on your squat depth. Ankles and calves can limit the depth so stretch those.
I've struggled with the squat most of my training life. It was never clear to me what people meant by "keep tight" (I would keep tight in the upper back, but I couldn't say what my lower back was doing). I think I just dropped down into the squat and then it was too late to keep tight in the lower back when it had rounded. Starting tight from the top and working downwards works better. I think the key is to go down slowly, pulling your butt down from the top, not dropping it down.
Also, adding some lower back exercises to your routine, like back extensions, might help with the squat.
I think I'll have to go with my contryman Ville's analysis:
Ville Said:
I think the key is to go down slowly, pulling your butt down from the top, not dropping it down.
Also, adding some lower back exercises to your routine, like back extensions, might help with the squat.
Most of us probably have some flexibility issues and we have different bodies so everyone squats a little different.
It probably wouldn't hurt if you took the time to make your abs a notch stronger and slowed down the descent.
When you go down slower, you reach a point where your lower abdomen toughes your quads and your hams touch your calves. For me, this is a strong position from where I feel I can naturally squeeze up without putting my back at risk.
"My grandma Olga, a famous Finnish Powerlifter, once told me,
'Little one, take care of your gastrointestinal tract
and it'll take care of you.'
Then she struck me with some salted herring."
What has helped me recently was learning how a tight lower back feels like (with Supermans, for example). Then I would stand up, arch & tighten the lower back and sloooowly pull myself down (or imagine trying to push something down with your buttocks). "
Concentrate in pulling yourself down, while maintaining the feeling of contraction in the lower back. It is a slow movement. I practice this occasionally during the day, I squat down on the first step of the staircase or while holding on to something.
Yes, I've recently started to do this, I never really understood the whole keeping the lower back neutral until recently especially on know how to tell when it was gone. I saw this suggestion in the copy of Starting Strength. Helped quite a lot. I can now tell when I begin to lose that tight lower back. Also Dan's suggestion on "breaking the finger" helps to.
Thanks for the advice here, I'll start to practice it more throughout the day.
Ville Said:
I also use a foam roller to judge my squat depth. When I do squats, I touch the roller lightly in the bottom position and then go back up. Go as far down as you can keep the lower back safe. You might have to start higher first and gradually work on your squat depth. Ankles and calves can limit the depth so stretch those.
I've struggled with the squat most of my training life. It was never clear to me what people meant by "keep tight" (I would keep tight in the upper back, but I couldn't say what my lower back was doing). I think I just dropped down into the squat and then it was too late to keep tight in the lower back when it had rounded. Starting tight from the top and working downwards works better. I think the key is to go down slowly, pulling your butt down from the top, not dropping it down.
Also, adding some lower back exercises to your routine, like back extensions, might help with the squat.
I think I've waited too long in getting a foam roller, think I should invest in one already. Again thanks for the advice.
I do lower back work and feel my lower back is pretty strong. I think it's mostly that my hammies are tight.
Thanks! I think I really need to find where I'm comfortable. I also do lots of weighted ab work and can deadlift 405 so while it's not uber strong I don't feel its a weakness. Think it is, like you said, a flexibility.
I did the door squat and was able to get into the proper position at the bottom. I notice that I struggle A LOT more to get into that position when I move my arms to the front and get into the goblet position because I have a hard time keeping my chest up and wide, losing the tightness.
I then started to wonder then if my bar placement would help with this, I'll have to wait till I get to the gym. High bar might be better for me, I currently put the bar a bit lower but can't go below parallel and keep my lower back tight. I'll find out tomorrow.
I did the door squat and was able to get into the proper position at the bottom. I notice that I struggle A LOT more to get into that position when I move my arms to the front and get into the goblet position because I have a hard time keeping my chest up and wide, losing the tightness.
I then started to wonder then if my bar placement would help with this, I'll have to wait till I get to the gym. High bar might be better for me, I currently put the bar a bit lower but can't go below parallel and keep my lower back tight. I'll find out tomorrow.
Playing around with broomstick squats helped me a lot. And shoulder dislocates helped me have the requisite mobility for staying tight under the bar. Maybe try them out and see if they help anything "click."
Others might have a different opinion but I think these new videos look a lot better. This technique probably feels better too?
Your descent is slower (=good) and it looks like you have more tension / better control over the weight. The whole "package" stays tight through the whole lift.
You really use your leg power on these. On the last (225) video your back starts to take over some in the end but it still looks good.
I personally can't make the goblet squat technique work on heavier back squats. I have to take a closer stance and go only slightly below parallel. Weak hips and posterior chain, perhaps.
"My grandma Olga, a famous Finnish Powerlifter, once told me,
'Little one, take care of your gastrointestinal tract
and it'll take care of you.'
Then she struck me with some salted herring."
I agree, definite improvement from the first video. Your back looks tight. You could try WL shoes as well to get a little heel lift, it might make it even easier. Personally I would continue to work on the squat depth, but it depends what your goals are.
Others might have a different opinion but I think these new videos look a lot better. This technique probably feels better too?
Your descent is slower (=good) and it looks like you have more tension / better control over the weight. The whole "package" stays tight through the whole lift.
You really use your leg power on these. On the last (225) video your back starts to take over some in the end but it still looks good.
I personally can't make the goblet squat technique work on heavier back squats. I have to take a closer stance and go only slightly below parallel. Weak hips and posterior chain, perhaps.
Ville Said:
I agree, definite improvement from the first video. Your back looks tight. You could try WL shoes as well to get a little heel lift, it might make it even easier. Personally I would continue to work on the squat depth, but it depends what your goals are.
Thanks guys, pretty much what I thought as I watched these after my workout. I agree on the assessment of the last video as well. I'm thinking the breakdown in form is because it is closer to my 1RM. Or it shows possible weaknesses.
That is about as low as I can go right now. Maybe the depth will improve as I continue to work door drills, maybe a few heavy goblet squats here and there, some flexibility (until recently I had done absolutely nothing for it). I've thought of getting shoes but not sure yet.
I worked at 185lbs today, 5 reps, then followed with 135lbs at about 12 reps.
It seems like I'm always trying to "fix" my squat. I had been doing a low bar squat but stopping right about parallel.
Looking at some goblet squat vids, by Marty Galagher and remembering Dan's vids, made me want to rethink my squat and I've decided that the goblet way is probably the simplest way to squat correctly. Do you all mind checking my form again?
I've got a really short torso, long legs, and narrow shoulders. I will hyper extend too much if I try a narrow grip on the bar. A bit wider keeps my shoulders happy.
And here Is a low bar squat. It's not even worth including. I cannot mimmick the goblet squat form at all. I KNOW this is not how I'll be progressing on the squat. I was just being thorough in my experimentation today.
I was doing a low bar squat for 210x15 BUT I would stop right around parallel and I wasn't going as low as this.
Consistently, the one thing you might need to do is break your butt back at the start of the squats, BACK then through the thighs.
But, with video, I miss some things. It looks fine.
Daniel John
Just handing down what I was handed down...
Make a Difference.
Live. Love. Laugh.
Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude)
Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk.
Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth.
Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights.
Reread great books. Say thank you
Eric, you have really long femurs. So your squat will always look less than optimal. If you are not planning on competing in powerlifting or weightlifting it's probably not necessary to do deep picture perfect squats anyways.
Others here are much more knowledgeable than I am and may see things differently. But IMO you will get most of the benefits squats have to offer even if you don't do powerlifting legal squats.
And most gyms have lot's of easy to use equipment that allows you to strengthen your lower body anyways. So you don't have to try to rely solely on an exercise that you struggle with.
11-17-19 06:59 PM -