02-17-10 04:03 PM - Post#606260    

David Woodhouse has kindly written a guest article for my blog and some of you may be interested in it.
http://weightliftingepiph anies.blogspot.com/2010/02/tuesdays-thro wdown.html

By the way he also wrote the article on Abadjiev and the Bulgarian system.
http://weightliftingexcha nge.com/index.php?option=com_content&am p;task=view&id=438&am p;Itemid=60

02-17-10 05:11 PM - Post#606273    

Cool.

"There are a lot of workouts that can get us where we want to go, but none will work without consistency." Uncle Al " Strength is the foundation for all the other physical qualities. People have forgotten that fact... Strength is the mother quality. It should never be out of style." Pavel T. " There are countless variations of everything on a theme. I warn about reading too much and knowing too little. Cuz, everything works and nothing works. You only need that to train." Gary John

02-17-10 06:34 PM - Post#606288    

That picture of Gough lifting was a meet here in SLC a few years ago. Lots of fun. I thought the Bulgarian article was great, but I never understood the Francis stuff (actually, I did...then I went to the clinic).

Daniel John Just handing down what I was handed down... Make a Difference. Live. Love. Laugh. Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude) Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk. Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth. Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights. Reread great books. Say thank you

02-17-10 08:44 PM - Post#606313    

Great reading! Thanks, Barry.

02-18-10 04:30 AM - Post#606336    

• Dan John Said:

Dan, do you think Charlie Francis' stuff can be applied to weightlifting successfully? You were at one of his climics, what do you think?

Charlie Francis and the CNS: Implications to Weightlifting-
02-18-10 06:54 AM - Post#606341    

Thanks, Barry. Outstanding and thought provoking article. This threw me a bit of a curve though:

"Francis also controversially states that CNS adaptation can be both specific and general. The former includes inter and intra muscular coordination and is specific to the exercise being performed. The latter involves a higher output (rate coding) by the CNS and leads to improvement across all exercises. So in the same way that bench press can improve sprint performance, sprinting can improve bench performance. When considering this the reader should be careful to distinguish strength improvements via neural mechanisms from those due to increases in contractile protein."

Can anyone walk me through the bold text?

Be strong. Be in shape. Be a man among men, regardless of your age or circumstances.

02-18-10 08:18 AM - Post#606361    

"Increases in contractile protein" is gaining size with strength, increasing the part of the muscle that contracts, not by pumping up the sacroplasm, which just contributes size without strength.

The most important test a lifter has to pass is the test of time. -Jon Cole

02-18-10 08:20 AM - Post#606363    

Certainly, his ideas are basic stuff with an eye towards keeping it simple. It is just basic stuff that is done like Pavel would probably suggest: do everything all the time.

Daniel John Just handing down what I was handed down... Make a Difference. Live. Love. Laugh. Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude) Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk. Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth. Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights. Reread great books. Say thank you

Charlie Francis and the CNS: Implications to Weightlifting-
02-18-10 08:23 AM - Post#606364    

My stab at it is, you can get stronger through, increased efficiency and recruitment (no muscular growth - think pavels synaptic facilitaion)and you can get stronger through hypertrophy(what your bold is getting at).

The implication being getting stronger by getting bigger muscles may slow you down because the force production may not increase enough to move your body faster more forcefully(or whatever object is needed to move for the chosen sport).

2 people (sprinters say)with the same weight and ability train. One takes their squat from 315 to 450 and all their other training adds 20 lbs muscle.

The other also takes his squat from 315 - 450 but all his other training adds no muscle or maybe say 5 lbs.

The likelihood is athlete 2 will be moving faster since he has less weight to move with the same strength...and he may be considerably faster since a bigger muscle doesn't make it more powerful/forceful without training to convert that strength to power.

My take away from the type up is Westside has a powerlifting specific adaptation of Charlies material. Heavy enough max effort day and a light enough dynamic effort day. Now how to make it apply for other sports (and my training) and what sports doesn't it apply to?

"There are a lot of workouts that can get us where we want to go, but none will work without consistency." Uncle Al " Strength is the foundation for all the other physical qualities. People have forgotten that fact... Strength is the mother quality. It should never be out of style." Pavel T. " There are countless variations of everything on a theme. I warn about reading too much and knowing too little. Cuz, everything works and nothing works. You only need that to train." Gary John

02-18-10 08:45 AM - Post#606370    

I generally agree Teddy but I'd have to say that Westside is not an adaptation of Charlie's material, it was developed independently, it is an adaptation of the Russian weightlifting system, but it is also a lot of ideas that are original based on Louie's 40+ years powerlifting at a high level.

The ME work and DE work develop strength via the nervous system, but there can be little doubt that the ME work also develops size. There is also all the supplemental and assistance work, aimed at weak points, that focuses on functional size and strength.

Note that most of the top lifters at Westside are between big and planet sized.

The most important test a lifter has to pass is the test of time. -Jon Cole

02-18-10 08:58 AM - Post#606374    

I wish that these "programs" were more scalable for the average athletic hobbyist. Using the exceptional athlete is the only way to get definitive results/data, but then trying to extrapolate that information for the average athlete is where it comes up a bit short, IMO.

Mark it Zero.

Charlie Francis and the CNS: Implications to Weightlifting-
02-18-10 09:25 AM - Post#606380    

• Quoting:

Exactly, Dan.

Thanks for answering my question, guys.

Teddy - You're going in a good direction for my primary focus. I'm an athlete #2 wannabe. My powerlifting goals this year are pretty lofty, and I'll not only be maintaining my present weight, but droppng down a class for two meets. Since this will be a year-long trek, with almost no down time, I really need to wrap my arms around the whole rest / active recovery issue. Yea, I sprint a few times a month and do some of the Westside stuff, but I'm having trouble drawing the line between recovery with strength improvement and making the recovery day a workout that will put me into overtraining mode.

If, as DJ said, this is basic stuff, then obviously I need to do more reading and ask you guys more questions.

Be strong. Be in shape. Be a man among men, regardless of your age or circumstances.

Edited by AAnnunz on 02-18-10 12:05 PM. Reason for edit: called teddy 'terry'

Re: Charlie Francis and the CNS: Implications to Weightlifting-
02-18-10 09:58 AM - Post#606395    

Here's a nice summary of Charlie's High-Low CNS stress ideas:

High Low Training

02-18-10 10:43 AM - Post#606402    

I went to the clinic maybe two years ago. Charlie said something that amazed me: "I'm going to organize Ben's workouts and type them up." Well, that was 1988. In other words, we are talking about an athlete and system that is from another era. It's like when I am with guys who are BSing about a track meet in 1985 and the kids they are telling the story to were born in 1995.

This is NOT a criticism, just a point that while I think the stuff is great, almost none of the elite steroid assisted training from the period carries over for me. My sprinters are trying to get a date to Prom and we don't have four hours to do a sprint workout...plus all the other stuff.

Smart take aways:

1. Don't get sprinters sore by switching up training.
2. Don't get sprinters doing junk mileage
3. Have a plan.

Or, just go read Barry Ross and see a program that is far simpler and "maybe" more appropriate.

Daniel John Just handing down what I was handed down... Make a Difference. Live. Love. Laugh. Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude) Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk. Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth. Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights. Reread great books. Say thank you

02-18-10 11:20 AM - Post#606418    

Using Ben Johnson for anything other than steroid abuse and yellow jaundice is a waste of time.

Mark it Zero.

Re: Charlie Francis and the CNS: Implications to Weightlifting-
02-18-10 11:25 AM - Post#606421    

• RyanH Said:

Concise and easy to understand. Gave me some a better idea of what I shouldn't be doing. Thanks, Ryan.

Be strong. Be in shape. Be a man among men, regardless of your age or circumstances.

Re: Charlie Francis and the CNS: Implications to Weightlifting-
02-18-10 11:35 AM - Post#606428    

• AAnnunz Said:

... and the neural part is just learning the exercise through repetition. That part doesn't carry over to other activities, at least not much.

The neural aspect is why beginners make such great strides in the first couple of months before bumping into the foothill of the first plateau.

02-18-10 11:37 AM - Post#606429    

• ccrow Said:

Thanks for the clarification, I didn't mean to draw the connection(Though I see the way I put it does) that Westside is from Charlie francis' stuff, but rather they are probably from similar research and then applied for their focus.

True about ME adding size but the application still gets specific. PL ?probably? see enhanced returns rather than diminishing returns the larger they get where as the sprinters will see the diminishing returns, thats were the sport specific and athlete specific focus really comes in.

When I read through super training by the late Mel Siff (probably pulled together a lot of what Charlie and louie both read elsewhere)there was a lot of material I pulled out of it. 1 thing was to work the different Characteristics of strength... pushing up ME(I have a strength deficit to correct) while working on developing explosive strength. But I do so within each workout . I also try to work "starting strength" with 4 sec pauses and exploding up on moderate weights(usually some of the warm-up sets).

I may have to tweak what I do.

"There are a lot of workouts that can get us where we want to go, but none will work without consistency." Uncle Al " Strength is the foundation for all the other physical qualities. People have forgotten that fact... Strength is the mother quality. It should never be out of style." Pavel T. " There are countless variations of everything on a theme. I warn about reading too much and knowing too little. Cuz, everything works and nothing works. You only need that to train." Gary John

02-18-10 11:50 AM - Post#606437    

Dan show me a pic of Ben's sclera white and I'll buy that. I know a lot of coloured/ black people with yellowish sclera so that doesn't mean much. If he was jaundiced from a steroid damaged liver he'd have died from it by now or been in need of a transplant.

I think I recall Charlie saying that Ben was on a negligible amount of steroids and that the "positive" test he had was the steroid itself not a metabolite....so conspiracy or not we won't know the truth. The rumour was he was not going full out and was going to go well under 9.8 approaching 9.7 and maybe sub that the upcoming outdoor season on a harder track.

"There are a lot of workouts that can get us where we want to go, but none will work without consistency." Uncle Al " Strength is the foundation for all the other physical qualities. People have forgotten that fact... Strength is the mother quality. It should never be out of style." Pavel T. " There are countless variations of everything on a theme. I warn about reading too much and knowing too little. Cuz, everything works and nothing works. You only need that to train." Gary John

02-18-10 01:12 PM - Post#606465    

• Teddy Moore Said:

My understanding is that BJ took significant amounts Halotestin. So much so, that it made a lot of bodybuilders blush.

Mark it Zero.

Charlie Francis and the CNS: Implications to Weightlifting-
02-18-10 01:24 PM - Post#606471    

• Quoting:

Oxymetholone will definitely produce the yellowing of jaundice, I have seen it happen a number of times, and as far as I know, all those knuckleheads are still alive. I do know that one had fatty cysts in his liver and other fairly serious health problems. He was a real Mr. Hyde on the beans, too. It's bitchy, I should be ashamed, but I enjoy pointing out to him that although he was competitive at a national level once upon a time, I am stronger than him now.

The most important test a lifter has to pass is the test of time. -Jon Cole

Re: Charlie Francis and the CNS: Implications to Weightlifting-
02-18-10 01:54 PM - Post#606480    

• Laree Said:

Don't we specifically develop the ability to recruit a higher % of fibers? Partially explaining why as beginners we can max/hit failure often while as more experienced lifters a true gut buster max can lead to deep and lasting exhaustion - we're able to tap into more so we deplete ourselves more.

Less Hercules, more Achilles.

Re: Charlie Francis and the CNS: Implications to Weightlifting-
02-18-10 02:08 PM - Post#606484    

• AAnnunz Said:

Another one from that site regarding your original question (distinguish strength improvements via neural mechanisms from those due to increases in contractile protein):

Getting Stronger



Edited by RyanH on 02-18-10 02:09 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

Charlie Francis and the CNS: Implications to Weightlifting-
02-18-10 02:21 PM - Post#606489    

• DanMartin Said:

That's the biggest problem IMO. It's not scalable due to several specific things including:

1. athletic ability
2. Life priorities
3. chemical assistance

Any of those 3 throw out much of the "big boy" training programs for us average iron people.

IMO anyway. That's why I just stick to the good old basics and if I never squat more than 400lbs in my life, well I'm pretty much OK with that.

Cliff

02-18-10 02:37 PM - Post#606494    

I think you are on the right track here, Cliff. That is exactly what I think, too. I think two is actually the biggest one. I made myself fast twitch because of 2. The error most of us make is trying to do this and this and this and not realizing that it just don't fly like that.

This is, by the way, my next book.

Daniel John Just handing down what I was handed down... Make a Difference. Live. Love. Laugh. Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude) Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk. Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth. Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights. Reread great books. Say thank you

02-18-10 02:42 PM - Post#606498    

Literary savage.

Mark it Zero.

02-18-10 03:54 PM - Post#606519    

• DanMartin Said:

I've read everything from Winstrol 50mg 2x/week to a cocktail. Regardless you still have to put in the work to be the top esp. if (almost) everybody else is juicing too.

As far as making BBer's blush, I doubt that very much, I doubt he'd make a lot of football players blush either but that's just a guess. If Charlie is right then everybody on the sprint podium is juicing, Canseco says close to a majority of baseball is juicing and like wise with football.

So Ben Being the poster child for steroid abuse is silly, might as well say Charlie Francis' sucks as a coach since it's the steroids that make the athlete. I remember reading Charlie said Ben had the goods to be Great without steroids...if nobody else was juicing.

But that is detreacting from this thread

RyanH, thanks for the other links.

"There are a lot of workouts that can get us where we want to go, but none will work without consistency." Uncle Al " Strength is the foundation for all the other physical qualities. People have forgotten that fact... Strength is the mother quality. It should never be out of style." Pavel T. " There are countless variations of everything on a theme. I warn about reading too much and knowing too little. Cuz, everything works and nothing works. You only need that to train." Gary John

Re: Charlie Francis and the CNS: Implications to Weightlifting-
02-18-10 05:36 PM - Post#606532    

• RyanH Said:

Thanks again, Ryan. Read a half dozen other articles on that site, too. Interesting takes on issues like bench press workout frequency and intensity. (If I followed those routines, I'd have a shoulder issue within three weeks.)

Be strong. Be in shape. Be a man among men, regardless of your age or circumstances.

02-18-10 05:59 PM - Post#606535    

• Teddy Moore Said:

The reason I mentioned the Halotestin is that of all the juices BJ could have used the Halotestin is the most easily detected by the IOC because of all the previous East German Olympic shenanigans.

Mark it Zero.

Re: Charlie Francis and the CNS: Implications to Weightlifting-
02-19-10 10:30 AM - Post#606609    

• johnnya Said:

That would be considered part of "learning" -- the nerves learn better access. They also learn coordination, meaning timing. I don't know what all would be considered part of motor learning; there must be a lot more going on.