Dan John
Total Posts: 12292
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05-11-09 04:47 PM - Post#550967
Forearms on the ground...nose over the thumbs.
Daniel John
Just handing down what I was handed down...
Make a Difference.
Live. Love. Laugh.
Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude)
Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk.
Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth.
Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights.
Reread great books. Say thank you |
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Luke W
Total Posts: 273
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I saw the get-up, thanks dan.
Also I got the concept of the swing a lot better with the video after all the great help you guys gave me at camp. I just to grasp the concept of popping the hips and pulling the weight down to swing the weight instead of lifting it and dropping it when I actually do the excerise.
As far as the swing, I need to pop with the hips or shoot up with the legs, however you want to say it, make a quick almost violent lat pull down like a hike, make sure to keep my back straight, weight on my heels, comes to chest height.
Thats what I had in my notes from camp, anything else I need to take not of about the swing guys?
"You are not good enough, to be frustrated" - Dan John
"...there is no good, there is only BETTER!" - John Powell
"Just shoot for the freakin' moon kid." - reynolds
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Edited by lukewoolb on 06-22-09 03:38 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Luke W
Total Posts: 273
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Hey dan I can't believe that I didn't write this down anywhere but I couldn't find it in my notes. Which excersize or stretch did you have me do that made me jump longer in like 30 seconds? And whatever it is if I do that will it have a permanent affect if repeated. If you could hit on that I would appreciate it, like I said I can't believe I didn't write it down.
Also I was wondering what to do to start kettlebells, just saw the program minimum, I mean I actually read through it instead of being ADD and looking for the get-up and stopping because I saw a video, and I got my answer to how I'm going to start out kettlebells after the one lift a day program in the Program Minimum.
I'm assuming because of the name you should add some to it, yes?no? And I should stop all get-ups at the T position, correct?
"You are not good enough, to be frustrated" - Dan John
"...there is no good, there is only BETTER!" - John Powell
"Just shoot for the freakin' moon kid." - reynolds
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Edited by lukewoolb on 06-22-09 03:43 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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DanMartin
Total Posts: 20705
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I have done the Juan Diego PM* 27 days in a row. However, I've only done the Kalos Sthenos Get-Up using the 1 Pood KB for a week.
*Dan John (brilliantly) considers the Kalos Sthenos Get-Up, Two Hand Swing, Plank and Goblet Squat the Juan Diego Program minimum.
All hail Juan Diego.
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cajinjohn
Total Posts: 12495
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07-05-09 10:32 AM - Post#564339
I finally broke down and got Enter the Kettlebell cd. I have been doing nothing right. Oh well stupid is as stupid does.
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Laree
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07-05-09 11:45 AM - Post#564350
I finally broke down and got Enter the Kettlebell cd. I have been doing nothing right. Oh well stupid is as stupid does.
Join the club. At Dan's last month, all of us (except Craig, who's been to kettlebell training) were squatting the bottom of our swings, and none of us were planking at or pulling from the top. And many of us had even watched kettlebell training dvds, more than one over the years!
Once you get the form, it's easy and makes sense, and carries over into the snatch automatically.
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Dan John
Total Posts: 12292
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07-05-09 11:58 AM - Post#564353
It took me a long time to understand the simple kettlebell swing.
Daniel John
Just handing down what I was handed down...
Make a Difference.
Live. Love. Laugh.
Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude)
Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk.
Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth.
Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights.
Reread great books. Say thank you |
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The Finn
Total Posts: 435
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It took me a long time to understand the simple kettlebell swing.
This might be a good thread to ask for a few pointers on the two-handed swing?
I've attended 2-3 kb classes in the past but there are a lot of blanks to fill.
When the bell comes up, should you pull the bell (very slightly) closer to you? I know you're not supposed to lean back, but if I keep my arms straight & relaxed, the weight of the kb will force me forwards in the top position.
(I should probably just do what Cajin did to correct my form) 
"My grandma Olga, a famous Finnish Powerlifter, once told me,
'Little one, take care of your gastrointestinal tract
and it'll take care of you.'
Then she struck me with some salted herring."
- TC Luoma |
Edited by The Finn on 07-06-09 08:34 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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DanMartin
Total Posts: 20705
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It took me a long time to understand the simple kettlebell swing.
This might be a good thread to ask for a few pointers on the two-handed swing?
I've attended 2-3 kb classes in the past but there are a lot of blanks to fill.
When the bell comes up, should you pull the bell (very slightly) closer to you? I know you're not supposed to lean back, but if I keep my arms straight & relaxed, the weight of the kb will force me forwards in the top position.
(I should probably just do what Cajin did to correct my form)
Simply lock down your lats at the top of your swing (which should be no more than chest high) by planking, there is no need to pull your arms in or to lean back. (try cramping your pecs at the same time you lock down your lats)
Don't overthink or overswing.
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Dan John
Total Posts: 12292
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07-06-09 11:41 AM - Post#564520
We only discuss the Hardstyle here. The other methods tend to lead to lower back issues and obsession with high reps. It's a tool. An important one, but a tool.
Daniel John
Just handing down what I was handed down...
Make a Difference.
Live. Love. Laugh.
Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude)
Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk.
Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth.
Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights.
Reread great books. Say thank you |
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DanMartin
Total Posts: 20705
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07-06-09 01:06 PM - Post#564565
exactly what I thought could happen after my first session w/a trainer. It seems so unnatural for me to rest my elbow on my hip - it forces me to have my hips out of line (which may be necessary with the "big" bells").
I have to sit down to rest my elbows on my hips.
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Laree
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exactly what I thought could happen after my first session w/a trainer. It seems so unnatural for me to rest my elbow on my hip - it forces me to have my hips out of line (which may be necessary with the "big" bells").
I agree -- it really looks awkward and I'm not personally interested in learning it. However, I did want to point out that Dan's referring to "here" as being in the DJ Q&A deck so we can keep the confusion to a minimum. We do have a few GS competitors elsewhere in the forum, more power to 'em. And I personally find it hard to argue with someone like Steve Cotter, who knows how to make a body move really well.
What I'm thinking is people should learn and practice Hardstyle, and the few -- few! -- who want to go on to compete in GS should learn those endurance techniques, while the rest of us stay put.
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Dan John
Total Posts: 12292
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07-06-09 01:39 PM - Post#564578
Exactly that, Laree. It's also the reason I don't bring competition cabers outside for my all girls weightlifting class to learn to toss the caber. It is something that I rant about all the time, read the book for several classics,  EVERYBODY is advanced now.
I have competed in several GS events and I am impressed by the sport. The problem with Kbells is the same issue we have with the long Olympic bar.
Before you do a bench or a row or a deadlift, you should snatch bodyweight. Why? Because it is an Olympic bar and the sport associated with it is Olympic lifting.
That same crazy logic tells some people to teach a middle aged women who has just seen her first kbell to rack it like it is the Baltic Championships in GS.
Honestly, learn the Swing. Learn the Goblet Squat. Learn the Get Up.
Master them.
Note well what Laree wrote..."few!"...will need to go much farther.
Here at this sad poor sticky which I asked, begged, to be simply a review of the Program Minimum, we are going to have 10,000 posts on the Program Minimum.
One of my favorite books is Parkinson's Law. There is a great section about a meeting where they pass a 10,000,000 dollar budget item without discussion and fight for hours over a coffee bill of something like $200.
The point is this: The Program Minimum is designed to be as simple as possible. Which is why, like the coffee bill, people want to discuss the minute details of it. If I put up the 32 week workout of Afterburn II with Cardio A and B and the Complexes and all the strength workouts, diet, and all the looping changes from week to week, the response would be:
"Looks good."
So...
Daniel John
Just handing down what I was handed down...
Make a Difference.
Live. Love. Laugh.
Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude)
Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk.
Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth.
Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights.
Reread great books. Say thank you |
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Laree
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Primary Training Purpose: Fitness and strength beats aging badly
Real Email Address: ld@davedraper.com
Homepage: davedraper.com
(Rhymes with Marie)
Full name: Laree Draper
Gender: female
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07-06-09 01:50 PM - Post#564585
The point is this: The Program Minimum is designed to be as simple as possible. Which is why, like the coffee bill, people want to discuss the minute details of it. If I put up the 32 week workout of Afterburn II with Cardio A and B and the Complexes and all the strength workouts, diet, and all the looping changes from week to week, the response would be:
"Looks good."
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DanMartin
Total Posts: 20705
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Honestly, learn the Swing. Learn the Goblet Squat. Learn the Get Up.
Master them.
Shaking the bush Boss, shaking the bush.
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RyanH
Total Posts: 853
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Speaking of learning the swing, there is a nice technique in Pavel's new Power to the People newsletter:
An Easy Way to Learn the Kettlebell Swing
Comrades, the following drill by Master RKC Com. Andrea Du Cane and Com. Tim McPhee, RKC II solves typical beginner mistakes—swinging with the arms, swinging too high, failing to find the rhythm—in minutes.
Sumo deadlift a kettlebell an inch or so off the ground. Hover in that position.
Relax your arms and shoulders and push the kettlebell back between your legs using your "armpit muscles"(the lats and the long heads of the triceps). Aim to hit the insides of your thighs with your forearms.
Still hovering in the low deadlift position let the kettlebell swing back and forth like a pendulum. Push it back every time but let it swing forward on its own.
After 5 reps, when the kettlebell is behind you and ready to swing forward, suddenly stand up. Congratulations, you have just done a kettlebell swing!
Sit back and let the kettlebell come back down and repeat the sequence: five pendulums in the hovering deadlift, and stand up. Then three. Then two. When you are at one, you are doing full-blown kettlebell swings.
Note how high—or rather low—the kettlebell will com up if you do the above drill correctly, focusing only on pushing the kettlebell back and then straightening out your body rather than on lifting the bell.
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The Finn
Total Posts: 435
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An Easy Way to Learn the Kettlebell Swing
Thanks! Seems I was on the right track after all and just over-analyzing the whole simple thing.
Sorry Dan for obscuring this great topic.
"My grandma Olga, a famous Finnish Powerlifter, once told me,
'Little one, take care of your gastrointestinal tract
and it'll take care of you.'
Then she struck me with some salted herring."
- TC Luoma |
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ArtV
Total Posts: 883
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07-07-09 08:23 PM - Post#564937
Exactly that, Laree. It's also the reason I don't bring competition cabers outside for my all girls weightlifting class to learn to toss the caber. It is something that I rant about all the time, read the book for several classics, EVERYBODY is advanced now.
I have competed in several GS events and I am impressed by the sport. The problem with Kbells is the same issue we have with the long Olympic bar.
Before you do a bench or a row or a deadlift, you should snatch bodyweight. Why? Because it is an Olympic bar and the sport associated with it is Olympic lifting.
That same crazy logic tells some people to teach a middle aged women who has just seen her first kbell to rack it like it is the Baltic Championships in GS.
Honestly, learn the Swing. Learn the Goblet Squat. Learn the Get Up.
Master them.
Note well what Laree wrote..."few!"...will need to go much farther.
Here at this sad poor sticky which I asked, begged, to be simply a review of the Program Minimum, we are going to have 10,000 posts on the Program Minimum.
One of my favorite books is Parkinson's Law. There is a great section about a meeting where they pass a 10,000,000 dollar budget item without discussion and fight for hours over a coffee bill of something like $200.
The point is this: The Program Minimum is designed to be as simple as possible. Which is why, like the coffee bill, people want to discuss the minute details of it. If I put up the 32 week workout of Afterburn II with Cardio A and B and the Complexes and all the strength workouts, diet, and all the looping changes from week to week, the response would be:
"Looks good."
So...
A true gem...I love just reading looking for the highlight....love it. 
I'd rather wear out than rust out.
Ecclesiastes 10:2 (NIV)
“The heart of the wise inclines to the right,
but the heart of the fool to the left.â€
Support an Olympic Athlete.
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john sansone
Total Posts: 617
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07-21-09 07:02 PM - Post#567930
I'm sorry,I don't want to step on anyone's toes,but I've got to say this:
I'm not knocking the get-up or goblet squat,but honestly:if all you're going to do with a KB is swing,goblet squat,or get up,why bother getting KB's at all?The swing is the only one of those moves that I can see is a benefit with a KB.OK,maybe a get up is easier with one...its traditionally done with a BB or DB to my(limited?)knowledge.
I've never heard anyone say that you "must" only snatch with an Oly bar.I can maybe see an argument that if one is going to do cleans regularly and progressively,or even work up to fairly heavy squatsthat you might want to spend more bucks for a more flexable bar.
Every GS type instructor teaches the swing first(after making sure they can squat!),before cleans,snatches,etc.
The rack position involves flexibility in a posterior pelvic tilt,nothing fancy.Maybe a little difficult at first,but not a bad thing to have.Not bad with one bell at a time,tough for most with two.
Whats wrong with developing good,efficient technique in the rack for press,push press or jerk with a KB?Would one ok inefficient form on the Oly lifts just because a client doesn't plan on competing in them?It would defeat the purpose of the movements.
You don't have to do ten minute sets to benefit from training in this style.You can do your density circuits,certainly.But with less potential shoulder trauma.Who knows,you may soon want to do long sets without setting the bell down once you find the work capacity benefits of it.All in all,KB's are better for higher rep work(in general)than they are for pure strength and power.You can pack more weight on a BB or DB less awkwardly!
You won't be seeing me at the Baltic Championships anytime soon,by the way!But I still want to continue to improve my exercise technique ,no matter what implement I use.
Peace!
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DanMartin
Total Posts: 20705
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I'm sorry,I don't want to step on anyone's toes,but I've got to say this:
I'm not knocking the get-up or goblet squat,but honestly:if all you're going to do with a KB is swing,goblet squat,or get up,why bother getting KB's at all?The swing is the only one of those moves that I can see is a benefit with a KB.OK,maybe a get up is easier with one...its traditionally done with a BB or DB to my(limited?)knowledge.
I've never heard anyone say that you "must" only snatch with an Oly bar.I can maybe see an argument that if one is going to do cleans regularly and progressively,or even work up to fairly heavy squatsthat you might want to spend more bucks for a more flexable bar.
Every GS type instructor teaches the swing first(after making sure they can squat!),before cleans,snatches,etc.
The rack position involves flexibility in a posterior pelvic tilt,nothing fancy.Maybe a little difficult at first,but not a bad thing to have.Not bad with one bell at a time,tough for most with two.
Whats wrong with developing good,efficient technique in the rack for press,push press or jerk with a KB?Would one ok inefficient form on the Oly lifts just because a client doesn't plan on competing in them?It would defeat the purpose of the movements.
You don't have to do ten minute sets to benefit from training in this style.You can do your density circuits,certainly.But with less potential shoulder trauma.Who knows,you may soon want to do long sets without setting the bell down once you find the work capacity benefits of it.All in all,KB's are better for higher rep work(in general)than they are for pure strength and power.You can pack more weight on a BB or DB less awkwardly!
You won't be seeing me at the Baltic Championships anytime soon,by the way!But I still want to continue to improve my exercise technique ,no matter what implement I use.
Peace!
John, I'm not "just doing" the Program Minimum, I'm embracing it.
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Dan John
Total Posts: 12292
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07-21-09 07:20 PM - Post#567938
John, because you have so many posts, I respect your intent. I'm not sure of the point of your direction here, but, let me, if I may, lay this out:
A while ago, there was a question that arose from my conversations with Dr. Mark Cheng. He noted that few people truly mine (as in digging for gold) the benefits of the Program Minimum.
It struck me. I had discounted the thing as a "beginner's program." But, I learned a long time ago to listen to people who I respect and deserve respect.
So, I made this "attempt" on this thread, after a nice discussion deep in the archives I am sure, to chart out the PM and some details on the two exercise HOPING that I would not have to repeat the answer to "what's the PM?," "What's a swing/get up/whatever?" more than a 100 times.
The PM is a program based on the use of kettlebells. You can use one kbell or have two, or whatever. You do swings and Get Ups. After a while, it became evident that Goblet Squats were a pretty good warmup (with the three basic "pump" moves) to add to it. NOthing earth shaking about using that lift to loosen things up.
If you choose to do Swings with a barbell, by all means do, but it is not the PM.
We have a poster who wants to do get ups with a shot put. I warned him that I thought ill of the decision.
Doing Swings with a hammer and Get Ups with a barbell are fine.
They are simply not the PM.
I have this crazy notion...and it is fun to read the whole thread here...that when I am discussing something, I am discussing that.
This thread has been as exhausting to me as answer this question:
"Dan, on the One Lift a Day program, can I do two lifts?"
Sure, but, then...it's not the One Lift a Day Program. It's something else.
Give it two weeks and get back to me.
Daniel John
Just handing down what I was handed down...
Make a Difference.
Live. Love. Laugh.
Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude)
Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk.
Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth.
Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights.
Reread great books. Say thank you |
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DanMartin
Total Posts: 20705
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07-21-09 07:28 PM - Post#567941
Let me be perfectly clear, I'll be doing the PM for quite some time to come.
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john sansone
Total Posts: 617
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07-21-09 08:52 PM - Post#567955
Sorry for the rant.
I was just a litle miffed at a statement that was made seemingly criticising a trainer for teaching a safe,efficient way of doing high rep overhead lifts to a novice with a tool designed for that(comp KB), just because it resembles what a competitive GS competitor does.
I realize it was a bit off topic,and I apologize for that.
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RAYME
Total Posts: 4963
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07-23-09 01:34 PM - Post#568405
I've been doing DB swings as part of a w/u. So you don't go overhead.....just chest high? I've been going completely overhead.
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Dan John
Total Posts: 12292
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07-23-09 03:52 PM - Post#568428
There is a great line in the book, "Jurassic Park," where the guy stands still and gets eaten. It's something like: "He read the wrong book" or something.
Yes, a correct swing is pulled down with the lats. Going high is wrong.
Any discussion of any other method is fine, but wrong.
Daniel John
Just handing down what I was handed down...
Make a Difference.
Live. Love. Laugh.
Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude)
Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk.
Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth.
Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights.
Reread great books. Say thank you |
|
RAYME
Total Posts: 4963
|
07-23-09 04:40 PM - Post#568435
There is a great line in the book, "Jurassic Park," where the guy stands still and gets eaten. It's something like: "He read the wrong book" or something.
Yes, a correct swing is pulled down with the lats. Going high is wrong.
Any discussion of any other method is fine, but wrong.
Thanks. The reason I asked is I just today watched a video of a one arm DB Swing, and he went all the way up like I've been doing, only I do two handed. From what I read here on IOL, I should listen to you!
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Dan John
Total Posts: 12292
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07-23-09 05:48 PM - Post#568454
But, please, remember that I have fabulous mentors. After working with Pavel, Brett Jones, and Doc Mark among hundreds of other kind RKCs who "nicely" taught me...over and over and over...the right way.
It's humbling. I think in my new Charles Staley interview we discuss this in depth. Mind you, I learned it the hard way, but I teach it the right way.
Daniel John
Just handing down what I was handed down...
Make a Difference.
Live. Love. Laugh.
Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude)
Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk.
Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth.
Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights.
Reread great books. Say thank you |
|
Lonnie Wade
Total Posts: 1414
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07-23-09 06:31 PM - Post#568464
Amen!
I can relate to this, along with others, everytime we go and come home from camp.
"No excuses, no explanations" Tony Dungy
"You can't always control what happens to you, but you can always control how you respond."
Left Handed Freak |
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David Whitley
Total Posts: 13
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08-05-09 03:30 PM - Post#571244
I've been doing DB swings as part of a w/u. So you don't go overhead.....just chest high? I've been going completely overhead.
the question is "why?"
Why go overhead in the swing?
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Dan John
Total Posts: 12292
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08-05-09 03:43 PM - Post#571247
Read "Jurassic Park."
It seems that some are following false prophets...whose interest is only in profits.
Daniel John
Just handing down what I was handed down...
Make a Difference.
Live. Love. Laugh.
Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude)
Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk.
Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth.
Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights.
Reread great books. Say thank you |
|
ccrow
Total Posts: 10055
Signature: The most important test a lifter has to pass
is the test of time.
-Jon Cole
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08-05-09 03:50 PM - Post#571250
I've been doing DB swings as part of a w/u. So you don't go overhead.....just chest high? I've been going completely overhead.
the question is "why?"
Why go overhead in the swing?
Why not?
The most important test a lifter has to pass
is the test of time.
-Jon Cole
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Dan John
Total Posts: 12292
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08-05-09 04:03 PM - Post#571255
It's then something else. The planked snap of the Swing is one of the keys.
Do what you want, but the Swing, as properly taught, does a great job carrying over to sport. These other things are just not swings.
I watched these videos of guys doing the snatch and they kept pressing out every single lift and the lifts were called "good." That's not a snatch. You can call it that, but it is not what it is. I'm not a Nazi on these things, but I spent a long time learning it the right way and I bow to my masters when I realize that my ego held me back from learning the correct way early.
Daniel John
Just handing down what I was handed down...
Make a Difference.
Live. Love. Laugh.
Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude)
Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk.
Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth.
Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights.
Reread great books. Say thank you |
|
David Whitley
Total Posts: 13
|
08-05-09 05:29 PM - Post#571276
I've been doing DB swings as part of a w/u. So you don't go overhead.....just chest high? I've been going completely overhead.
the question is "why?"
Why go overhead in the swing?
Why not?
A better way to say it:
Why are you swinging the first place?
What is the purpose doing the swing?
The desired effect?
Some guy named Dan something or other once said "Does your behavior match your goal?"
What is the goal of the swing? It SHOULD be to project energy forward and reinforce poweful hip extension, abdominal bracing and tension in the trunk, including the lats.
The behavior of swinging overhead does not match the desired effect.
If the objective is to put weight overhead with the hip drive and arm extension, then the answer is snatch, not swing.
Looking at this: "I've been doing DB swings as part of a w/u.....I've been going completely overhead."
With a DB, then the difference between swing and snatch is minimal. So what you are really describing is what I'd call a a DB snatch, which serves a different purpose than the KB swing.
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Dan John
Total Posts: 12292
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08-05-09 05:34 PM - Post#571277
Hats off.
Bless you.
Daniel John
Just handing down what I was handed down...
Make a Difference.
Live. Love. Laugh.
Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude)
Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk.
Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth.
Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights.
Reread great books. Say thank you |
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Joe Boucher
Total Posts: 645
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08-05-09 10:10 PM - Post#571322
What is the goal of the swing? It SHOULD be to project energy forward and reinforce poweful hip extension, abdominal bracing and tension in the trunk, including the lats.
This really helps and I think will help solidify my techique. For such a simple looking exercise, the swing has lots of room for refinement.
Apparently this Whitley guy knows what he is talking about.
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Lonnie Wade
Total Posts: 1414
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08-06-09 08:45 AM - Post#571363
Dave has a pretty good grasp on things
The best birthday present my wife ever gave me was one of Dave's workshops.
I only walked funny for a week after.
"No excuses, no explanations" Tony Dungy
"You can't always control what happens to you, but you can always control how you respond."
Left Handed Freak |
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craigb156
Total Posts: 272
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08-06-09 10:38 AM - Post#571396
Dave, great to see you here. Best bit on the swing...I am using it today with a trainee...
Thanks-
Craig
Accept your feelings. Know your purpose. And do what needs to be done.
— Shoma Morita
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David Whitley
Total Posts: 13
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Dave, great to see you here. Best bit on the swing...I am using it today with a trainee...
Thanks-
Craig
Glad it is helpful.
Edited by David Whitley on 08-06-09 04:45 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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DanMartin
Total Posts: 20705
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09-26-09 09:43 PM - Post#580304
My Program Minimum has morphed at bit. I'm doing a 1/3/5 PM consisting of one Kalos Sthenos Get-Up (L/R), 3 sets of Two-Hand Swings and 5 sets of Goblet Squats.
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Geoff Neupert
Total Posts: 1
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12-01-09 08:52 PM - Post#592498
Exactly that, Laree. It's also the reason I don't bring competition cabers outside for my all girls weightlifting class to learn to toss the caber. It is something that I rant about all the time, read the book for several classics, EVERYBODY is advanced now.
I have competed in several GS events and I am impressed by the sport. The problem with Kbells is the same issue we have with the long Olympic bar.
Before you do a bench or a row or a deadlift, you should snatch bodyweight. Why? Because it is an Olympic bar and the sport associated with it is Olympic lifting.
That same crazy logic tells some people to teach a middle aged women who has just seen her first kbell to rack it like it is the Baltic Championships in GS.
Honestly, learn the Swing. Learn the Goblet Squat. Learn the Get Up.
Master them.
Note well what Laree wrote..."few!"...will need to go much farther.
Here at this sad poor sticky which I asked, begged, to be simply a review of the Program Minimum, we are going to have 10,000 posts on the Program Minimum.
One of my favorite books is Parkinson's Law. There is a great section about a meeting where they pass a 10,000,000 dollar budget item without discussion and fight for hours over a coffee bill of something like $200.
The point is this: The Program Minimum is designed to be as simple as possible. Which is why, like the coffee bill, people want to discuss the minute details of it. If I put up the 32 week workout of Afterburn II with Cardio A and B and the Complexes and all the strength workouts, diet, and all the looping changes from week to week, the response would be:
"Looks good."
So...
Well said, Dan.
The PM is just too simple to be that effective right?
I mean it can't be - it's just two exercises for Pete's sake!
I mentioned to you earlier tonight that I was starting my PM for 30 days - the month of December. Just finished traning - 29 minutes - and it was more than enough. Give me double C&Js any day of the week instead.
Looking forward to what the next 29 days have in store...
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Laree
Total Posts: 26002
Country: Z
Show User Page
(Blog, Gallery, Shoutbox & Buddies etc...): No
Last Login IP: 162.158.63.64
Last Online: 06-15-23
User ID: 3
Login Name: ldraper
Date Agreed to Rules: 12-09-10
Country: Z
Occupation: Website work
info_have_been_training_since: 12-31-79
Primary Training Purpose: Fitness and strength beats aging badly
Real Email Address: ld@davedraper.com
Homepage: davedraper.com
(Rhymes with Marie)
Full name: Laree Draper
Gender: female
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ArtV
Total Posts: 883
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John, because you have so many posts, I respect your intent. I'm not sure of the point of your direction here, but, let me, if I may, lay this out:
A while ago, there was a question that arose from my conversations with Dr. Mark Cheng. He noted that few people truly mine (as in digging for gold) the benefits of the Program Minimum.
It struck me. I had discounted the thing as a "beginner's program." But, I learned a long time ago to listen to people who I respect and deserve respect.
So, I made this "attempt" on this thread, after a nice discussion deep in the archives I am sure, to chart out the PM and some details on the two exercise HOPING that I would not have to repeat the answer to "what's the PM?," "What's a swing/get up/whatever?" more than a 100 times.
The PM is a program based on the use of kettlebells. You can use one kbell or have two, or whatever. You do swings and Get Ups. After a while, it became evident that Goblet Squats were a pretty good warmup (with the three basic "pump" moves) to add to it. NOthing earth shaking about using that lift to loosen things up.
If you choose to do Swings with a barbell, by all means do, but it is not the PM.
We have a poster who wants to do get ups with a shot put. I warned him that I thought ill of the decision.
Doing Swings with a hammer and Get Ups with a barbell are fine.
They are simply not the PM.
I have this crazy notion...and it is fun to read the whole thread here...that when I am discussing something, I am discussing that.
This thread has been as exhausting to me as answer this question:
"Dan, on the One Lift a Day program, can I do two lifts?"
Sure, but, then...it's not the One Lift a Day Program. It's something else.
Give it two weeks and get back to me.
A truly excellent example of patience at work...another gem.
I'd rather wear out than rust out.
Ecclesiastes 10:2 (NIV)
“The heart of the wise inclines to the right,
but the heart of the fool to the left.â€
Support an Olympic Athlete.
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Edited by ArtV on 12-23-09 05:06 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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George Heckert
Total Posts: 1
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01-10-10 08:08 PM - Post#599192
Hey I have been doing the program minimum using a 1 pood kb for a couple of weeks and it is awesome!
I can press the 1 pood for a whole bunch of reps and I was wondering if when I move on to the Rite of Passage I should bump up to the 1.5 pood. I can only press that for about 3 reps with my good arm tops. Any thoughts?
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JG Italian Stallion
Total Posts: 6
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01-15-10 07:38 PM - Post#600429
This is a great section. I have Dan's dvd's; and Pavel's books and read and watched them both. Just got my HKC from Atlanta with David Whitley. I never realized how to do the movements (swing, get up and goblet squat) properly until the conf. I probably still have a way to go. Practice makes permanent. That's the key to learning these movements
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Dan John
Total Posts: 12292
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01-15-10 09:23 PM - Post#600450
Now, show me the courage to do it! Take weeks (months!) to simply do these movements and do what you can do.
Trust me, mastery is far better than dabbling. I am working on mastery in love.
Daniel John
Just handing down what I was handed down...
Make a Difference.
Live. Love. Laugh.
Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude)
Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk.
Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth.
Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights.
Reread great books. Say thank you |
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DanMartin
Total Posts: 20705
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01-15-10 09:55 PM - Post#600455
I am working on mastery in love.
Bwhaaaa!
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Casey
Total Posts: 7
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01-17-10 05:28 PM - Post#600676
At the beginning of last year I spent three months doing nothing but the Program Minimum. To be fair, it wasn't THE Program Minimum, as my TGU and Swings sets would get up to 30 minutes on some days. However it was those two exercise and nothing else for 90 DAYS.
At the end of it I could TGU and Swing The Beast (48kg KB) no problem, and took second place in my division at a local submission grappling tournament. I was very small for my weight class but had more in the tank then anyone else and didn't have any trouble moving the bigger guys.
Long story short, IT WORKS.
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warrior
Total Posts: 1096
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01-20-10 05:28 PM - Post#601219
I'm finally going to try the PM for a few months. Yes, I know I know )
Can somebody please post a link/article/pictures of how to do the KS get up? I'm assuming "naked" just means to do it w/out weight at first mastering the form right?
I really like DJ's phasic/tonic (Janda/Chek whoever came up with the concept) ideas. So having said that, if I start the PM today and do it say 5 days per week and don't include any other exercises (I will still have to run though 2-3 times per week since I get tested on that in the military) what about strengthening some of the "phasic" muscles that aren't worked on the PM (or are they?) such as: rhomboids, triceps, forearm extensors, lower trap? Seems like the only upper body exercise on the PM is the get up which to me (and I could be wrong) would mostly work shoulders (which is good) abs and hips. What about the aforementioned phasic muscles? What about rows or pullups for rhomboids or pressing exercises for triceps?
Not trying to be "difficult" as I thought about trying the PM a while back but I guess I didn't have the "courage." Please bear with me. Just trying to understand that's all.
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Adam Marks
Total Posts: 88
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01-20-10 06:07 PM - Post#601224
If you get a chance to look at Enter the Kettlebell, Pavel mentions that he has taken his pull/press concept from Power to the People and applied it to the program minimum and rite of passage program.
I'm sure someone will chime in but I feel that with the swing and kalos stenhos getup you will be ticking all of the above boxes. If you integrate the VO2 max snatches in as well you will be getting in some great conditioning.
If you go to the shop on line section on this site and look up Dan's kettlebell DVD there are a couple of youtube clips that Laree posted. Theres one on the getup which will give you a good idea of what naked getups are. Of course just buying the DVD will be your best bet :)
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Casey
Total Posts: 7
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01-21-10 01:15 AM - Post#601261
I'm finally going to try the PM for a few months. Yes, I know I know )
Can somebody please post a link/article/pictures of how to do the KS get up? I'm assuming "naked" just means to do it w/out weight at first mastering the form right?
I really like DJ's phasic/tonic (Janda/Chek whoever came up with the concept) ideas. So having said that, if I start the PM today and do it say 5 days per week and don't include any other exercises (I will still have to run though 2-3 times per week since I get tested on that in the military) what about strengthening some of the "phasic" muscles that aren't worked on the PM (or are they?) such as: rhomboids, triceps, forearm extensors, lower trap? Seems like the only upper body exercise on the PM is the get up which to me (and I could be wrong) would mostly work shoulders (which is good) abs and hips. What about the aforementioned phasic muscles? What about rows or pullups for rhomboids or pressing exercises for triceps?
Not trying to be "difficult" as I thought about trying the PM a while back but I guess I didn't have the "courage." Please bear with me. Just trying to understand that's all.
is the KS style get up, and yes naked just means weightless.
As for the phasic and tonic muscles, Coach mentions that these are addressed appropriately with the PM. Heavy TGU's will build strong triceps, and the hips high position really hits the rhomboids when you lock it in. Extra lifting is allowed, and pull-ups would be a good idea since you are military.
Also, five days per week might be a bit much, especially coupled with the running. The Man Maker sessions can take quite a toll on you, so I'd recommend just doing it "by the book" for a while and see how it jives with your other training before adding to it.
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