08-16-08 01:08 PM - Post#473477    

Anyone here ever do front squats with a harness or manta ray? And if so what is youre opinion on these products.

08-16-08 01:36 PM - Post#473483    

Never had the opportunity to use a harness or ray. I just use the arms crossed bar on front shoulders method. Haven't the flexibility to do the clean hold.

They're a great lift, though, and worth doing however.

“I mean, they say you die twice. One time when you stop breathing and a second time, a bit later on, when somebody says your name for the last time.” Banksy

Front Squats
08-16-08 01:44 PM - Post#473485    

At York a few years ago I had the opportunity to ask Rickey Dale Crane if a manta ray would help my front squat. He told me that it would not, and I should use whatever "regular" hold was the most comfortable.

08-16-08 02:05 PM - Post#473489    

• Displacedtexan Said:

I do the same Matt. Can't use alot of weight on the front squat though, it ends up irritating my shoulder if I try.

08-16-08 03:12 PM - Post#473503    

• Displacedtexan Said:

Matt,

Here's a couple of things you could try to help you get the flexibility.
Strap your hands to the bar with wrist straps. Keep the weight light, but you'll be surprised how quickly you get the flexibility (of course, your mileage may vary).
Attach a pair of vice grips to the bar and hold onto them.
I'll show you some additional stretches when you're here.
Rick

Be brief, be brutal, be done.

08-16-08 06:04 PM - Post#473524    

What are the pros and cons of crossed hands vs. clean grip in the front squat? I have the wrist flexibility for the clean grip and I've experimented with both grips. I'm a beginner just learning the front squat.

Above all else, guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life. Prov 4:23 "I'm not a doctor just someone that gets injured a lot." irondawg "Confidence - the absence of doubt - is a distillation of hope, faith and knowing." Dave Draper, BISS, page 65 "Few things are more fulfilling than personal progress." Dave Draper, newsletter of 4/2/09 100 Day Burpee Challenge 08 Survivor squatting makes me sleepy

08-16-08 06:52 PM - Post#473540    

Same bar position, so same muscles worked.

Clean grip is cool, because you can clean and then squat the bar. Or clean and then press. Or both. If you read about various Dan John workouts, or want to try Oly lifts, this is the one you'll want to do. Easier to dump it if you get stuck on the lift with the clean grip.

Crossed hands grip is cool, but if you do it, you have to squat with three [or was it four?] wheels on each side while wearing jeans, like that old photo of Dave Draper. Lower weights may not be allowed. I am not sure.

jej

08-16-08 08:20 PM - Post#473553    

can i use styrofoam wheels? i've got a pair of jeans i can wear.

Above all else, guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life. Prov 4:23 "I'm not a doctor just someone that gets injured a lot." irondawg "Confidence - the absence of doubt - is a distillation of hope, faith and knowing." Dave Draper, BISS, page 65 "Few things are more fulfilling than personal progress." Dave Draper, newsletter of 4/2/09 100 Day Burpee Challenge 08 Survivor squatting makes me sleepy

08-16-08 09:09 PM - Post#473559    

• jej Said:

I agree with what jej says here.
You know once you learn how to place the bar on top of your shoulders, you'll be surprise how weight you can place on them. As far as flexibility, before every training session especially prior to front squats, stretch your wrists by pulling your hands back. After sometime doing this you'll get the flexibility in your wrists that you need. Your legs and hips will follow once you start perfecting the form.

"my joints are squealing like a truckload of pigs on their way to the Spam factory." Dave Draper

08-16-08 09:21 PM - Post#473561    

• yoyo Said:

I'll have to check the rule book on that and get back to you.

Here's the famous photo
http://www.davedraper.com/photo-draper-front-sq uats.html
and it was three wheels. You think he was in control of the situation?
jej

Front Squats
08-16-08 10:46 PM - Post#473570    

I always warm up the wrists with the empty bar before doing working sets of front squats. Will usually do another warmup set with about 95-100 too before putting the big wheels on. Makes a huge difference. I'm about as flexible as a 90-year-old man, btw, so if I can use the clean grip, anyone can...there's just an adaptation period.

"When [defeat] comes, I won't even notice. I'll be too busy looking good."

08-17-08 01:07 AM - Post#473587    

I gotta second the thoughts on the wrist flexibility coming right along. I had a lot of trouble with it at first, so I just let the ring and little fingers loose once I had the bar racked on my shoulders, you dont need to "grip" the bar once its up, as your not really holding it, just resting it on your shoulders. I was really surprized at just how quickly my wrist flexibility came along. Try freeing up fingers once its up, from the outside, going in. I wouldnt go with less than 2 under the bar, but again, all your doing is keeping it from rolling forward off your "shelf". If your doing it right, you shouldnt be supporting any real load with the hands, just "chocking" it. It should be resting on the shoulders. If you are not meaty enough though, you might get a bar pad, or even che-more frugally, some pipe insulation foam to keep it from killing the poor collar bones. Maybe Im the only guy scrawny enought for the bar to hit em, but it sho' do. A pad makes all the difference.

Be well, and GOD bless
Dave

God is interested in our character, not our comfort!...Me "When your going through Hell, keep going."... W. Churchill "May you be in heaven an hour before the devil knows your dead."...Irish proverb

08-17-08 07:53 AM - Post#473612    

I think as far as using a clean grip goes it depends on the weight. I would rather use heavy weight when front squatting (heavy being relative of course) so using the standard front squat, bar resting across the shoulders as in the pic jej posted, seems to work best for heavier weight. Also if you have wrist problems, like me, then you may be asking for injury using the clean grip.

08-17-08 10:16 AM - Post#473648    

• Pook Said:

I would have to say the exact opposite. Most of the really heavy front squats you will see are done with the clean grip. When I was starting to occasionally break 225 in the front squat, an olympic lifter at the Y I trained at said hey that's good but you'll do a lot better if you learn to hold the bar right. I did, and he was right.

Olympic lifters are the kings of the front squat. Oh sure you'll find some strong strong people that do it I-dream-of-genie style, but far far far more 400# front squats are done with the clean grip.

If you can't do the clean grip, developing the flexibility in the wrists and shoulders is worthwhile for front squats alone.

That said, if you legitimately CAN'T develop the proper flexibility that way, I would not throw out the exercise, I would do my best. The Sting Ray only works with the dream of genie grip so I wouldn't buy it. (The Manta Ray is for back squats, and I do like the Manta Ray, it is much more than a back pad, which I don't need.)

I'd keep the padding to a minimum because padding is going to move the bar out in front of you a little. The bar really needs to be right in your throat, like touching. Getting the elbows up will lift the bar off the collarbones and onto the delts, for most.

The vice grips or straps method is very easy and preserves the positioning of the bar and arms in the clean grip, which is vital. This is something that is hard to describe but easy to see once you do it, so I won't bother describing it, easier to just try it both ways.

But again it really isn't that hard developing the requisite flexibility, for most anyway, and the flexibility is good too.

The most important test a lifter has to pass is the test of time. -Jon Cole

08-17-08 10:18 AM - Post#473650    

Just wanted to say it's the sting ray for front squats -- manta ray for back squats -- so no one orders the wrong product. However, if my experience is true for others, you won't need a sting ray long and could probably skip that part. When I first started front squatting, I used a sting ray. After a few times, it seemed like a hassle to put on, so I skipped it and haven't used one since.

Re: Front Squats
08-17-08 11:15 AM - Post#473666    

As I advised Steve Cross not so long ago, sponge is the key to holding the bar comfortably with a cross-armed grip. Some weeks after, Steve did his 400 reps on the front squat so I can only assume he tried using sponge.
I tend to use sponge ripped off the back of an old chair or seat. I then wrap this loosely around the centre of the bar and tie with rags, at both ends and one in the middle. When squatting, even if you lean a touch the bar will still stay where it is on the shoulders as it bites in.
If I don't have the right sponge fixed up right I simply can't front squat and the bar inevitably slips forwards. At the moment I do two hard sets of front squats and then follow up with two sets of back squats. The sponge allows me to knock out far more reps.

• Yeti Said:

Re: Front Squats
08-17-08 11:37 AM - Post#473670    

• DOBRIYCHELOVEK Said:

If the elbows are high, the bar won't slide forward, that would be like the bar rolling up a hill. The the i-dream-of-genie grip, your elbows are perpetually down. With the clean grip, you push them up high.

The most important test a lifter has to pass is the test of time. -Jon Cole

08-17-08 01:12 PM - Post#473697    

• ccrow Said:

I guess it must be just me. My wrist is all jacked up anyway (broken and tore ligaments so it still causes me pain)

08-17-08 01:22 PM - Post#473704    

When in my teens and 20s, decades ago, I did Olympic lifting along with other training. In those times front squats were easy. With the passage of time and just plain stupidity about keeping elbow/shoulder mobility, doing standard front squats with the bar rooted in the shoulders is no longer possible.

These days I get the same depth of quad work with my Zane Leg Blaster. Thanks to pure serendipity I picked up a copy of the original Leg Blaster and a Russ Warner Roman Chair squat back in 1991 for a handsome $50. Both are excellent tools for isolating quads and working them so deeply that all thought of passing a field sobriety test by walking a straight line or balancing on one foot is banished until recovery occurs some hours later!

The folks who make the sting ray and mantra ray also have good tools - forget which is which, but one works well for front squats. Along with a board under the heels for proper balance for me.

good luck and keep on squatting.

08-17-08 02:31 PM - Post#473721    

There are two things that improved my grip on the front squat the most and allowed me to perform the lift:

1) Don't grip the bar with all fingers. Instead, use the thumb, forefinger, and middle finger.

2) Take a narrow grip than what you use for the back squat. I found I had to move in towards just outside my shoulders. Some people may even prefer going closer to their collar bone. THis narrow grip forces the elbows up high rather than out which is important IMO.


I originally assumed the jump from back squat to front squat would be a simple transference of skill only to learn that I had to learn a brand new lift. I am very happy about incorporating the front squat now.

Good luck.

"The Earth has music for those who listen." Reginald Holmes "Be careful about reading health books. You may die of a misprint." Mark Twain "It's difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." Upton Sinclair

Front Squats
08-17-08 02:55 PM - Post#473724    

I like the rack position and am lucky enough to be able to do it without pain.

Thinking only about wrist flexibility, flat back and good depth kinda sidetracked me from getting and keeping the elbows up.
Big difference once you program yourself to keep the arms right up there good and proper. Before getting in under the bar, it's not a bad plan to just lift your arms in that rack position, put them on top of the bar in the stands and lower yourself down to get a good stretch.
A person could spend time just working on ways to get his technique and performance style more ingrained, maybe even during the warmup sets each and every session, and after a few days, months or years it would become natural to assume that position no matter how heavy the bell becomes.
Lately I've been thinking of correct placement as trying to apply a choke hold on myself with the bar. Really, it's working!

I've been thinking of applying box squat training to the front squat to get more oomph out of the bottom, but that can wait until the weight's up there more. And paused front squats, bottom rack squats and working up to ten singles in ten minutes are cruel and unusual punishment that probably pay back big.

Life's too short to worry about longevity.

Edited by Neander on 08-17-08 03:01 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

Re: Front Squats
08-17-08 03:29 PM - Post#473729    

• ccrow Said:

Byron, is exactly correct here. Elbows are high; and treat the front delts like a shelf. This is the only way to hold the bar with out it slipping off of you. Once you toughen up the delts you'd be amazed the amount of weight you can place on them. Its no different than your upper back for back squats.

"my joints are squealing like a truckload of pigs on their way to the Spam factory." Dave Draper

Front Squats
08-18-08 02:53 AM - Post#473819    

Crow also gave you the perfect signal for when you are keeping the elbows high enough. When you feel the bar pressing against your throat, your there. If I set up right, breathing is a between rep thing, on front squats. No big breath is gonna squeez through when I have the bar properly racked, its pretty chokey. I still have to use a thin pad though, as my collar bones stick out more than my clearly inadequate upper pecs (heehee)Bar on bone aint no fun. One day though Ill be full growed, and when Im a big boy, Ill have some meat over the bony parts.

God is interested in our character, not our comfort!...Me "When your going through Hell, keep going."... W. Churchill "May you be in heaven an hour before the devil knows your dead."...Irish proverb

Edited by pwrhngry on 08-18-08 02:55 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

08-18-08 05:46 AM - Post#473824    

Please pardon the elementary school question... but what are the differences in benefits between front and back squats?

cheers,

Luke

Braken Wear Enter gym, lift weights, feel good, go home. What more is there to say? D.Draper Log Progress Pics Dead lift PR 506lb (Video)

Re: Front Squats
08-18-08 10:32 AM - Post#473883    

I tried many variants. For me, sponge is what solved all my problems with the exercise. I notice Dave also front squatted with sponge wrapped around the bar although his was proper barbell roll sponge. I just use upholstery sponge so I can then get the bar steady on the collar bone without any discomfort.
Having said that I struggle with front squats still. I can knock out reps with 250 pounds if I so wish but I'm not interested in the usual low range reps of 5 or 6. I like to get into the 12 - 15 range and also descend all the way down smoothly. So, I still front squat fairly light but hope to move on to heavier weights in the future.

• ccrow Said:

08-18-08 10:45 AM - Post#473894    

Griffo, the primary differences are that the front squat is a much more solidly Quad-based movement, as enguaging the hips, and posterior chain is much more difficult. It sort of "stands you up" and keeps the weight on the front of the legs. A forward lean, which will lead to more hip dominant squatting, is virtually impossible, as youd end up dumping the bar, if you leaned forward much.

Additionally the front squat, for me anyhow seems to much more fully activate the deep core musculature (transverse abs, obliques, etc.) again, because it "stands you up" and the overall feel of supporting the weight is much different. It just puts your body behind the load line from bar to floor, rather than in front of it, as with back squats.

God is interested in our character, not our comfort!...Me "When your going through Hell, keep going."... W. Churchill "May you be in heaven an hour before the devil knows your dead."...Irish proverb

08-18-08 01:33 PM - Post#474007    

pwrhngry, thanks heaps mate!

Luke

Braken Wear Enter gym, lift weights, feel good, go home. What more is there to say? D.Draper Log Progress Pics Dead lift PR 506lb (Video)