gem1
Total Posts: 825
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Hi Ken,
My left should was bothering me for a spell, conseqeuntly I began making adjustments in my hand position when I squatted. The change in hand position required the bar to ride lower than I liked which in turn started screwing up my squatting form and causing my knees to ache. This lead me to start using less weight just so I could squat (not the striving I try to achwive).
Anywho...I purchased a TS and from day one my problems were solved....even my shoulder, my form returned and the weights started going back up.
I can't give it a high enough compliment.
Guy
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Dan Coletta
Total Posts: 162
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Quote:
Bill Keyes said:
HOWEVER, if you mean making it easier to maintain upright torso positioning better it is simply outstanding.
I strongly agree with Bill here, the Top Squat is the device that caused me to really learn how to squat. It makes it MUCH easier to maintain the upright torso and then you carry that feeling with you if/when doing squats without the Top Squat, so form is always better. I highly recommend the Top Squat.
Dan
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Laree
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The following article is from the upcoming issue of the High Performance Training newsletter which will be available September 1, 2004.
For further information on the September issue or to subscribe, please visit our website at http://www.hptnews.com
The Top Squat in Perspective
By Randy Roach
I was reluctant at first to test and review Dave Draper’s Top Squat apparatus simply because I didn’t think it would stack up to what I already had. I have custom designed my own Safety Squat bar and in possession of what I believe is the best squat machine on the market, that being Tyler Hobson’s Pendulum Squat Pro. In fact, I had written a review a few years back on this excellent machine. So, I felt that Draper’s device would at best draw a few snide remarks. However, Fred Fornicola requested that I keep in mind the review was for a strength newsletter aimed primarily at coaches and athletes and to try and keep things in perspective in terms of what the Top Squat was designed to do. Well, I figured ok then, that is exactly what I would do. If I was going to be honest about this, then I would put Mr. Draper’s new gimmick in perspective regarding the context of squatting, squatting tools, and how I feel about the squat itself.
What is it about this exercise that sparks so much controversy in all factions of the iron industry, including the strength coaching field? You will find many who curse this exercise to hell and those who revere it so much that it is almost heresy to speak against it. “Oh Mr. Squat, what are you that man is so mindful of you?” The arguments do not stop with whether one should include the movement, but even more debate abounds over how to do it properly. Bar placement, foot placement, and depth of descent are just some of the properties of the squat that invoke constant debate throughout the entire iron industry.
The back squat as we practice it today has been around for over 80 years and credited to Henry "Milo" Steinborn who came to North America in the very early 1920s. Editor Mark Berry of the Milo Barbell Company wrote extensively on the back squat in the 1930s after witnessing the tremendous results attained by himself, Steinborn, Sig Klein, and Joseph Curtis Hise. Hise used the exercise along with large quantities of milk and other foods to build himself up to 300 pounds. These men and others espoused the notion that in order to get big you must work the legs, and the best way to work the legs was the heavy flat-footed squat.
Perhaps one of the biggest champions of the squat was Iron Man publisher Peary Rader. Rader attributed almost 100 pounds of bodyweight gain to a protocol of 20 rep squats along with plenty of milk. In all his years of squat advocacy, Rader obviously noted the
difficulties with this movement for certain individuals since by the 1960s, he was promoting one of the early squatting devices -- the Magic Circle created by James Douglass years earlier.
Ten years previous, Jack Lalanne was staking his claim on the creation of another squatting tool that we know today as the Smith machine. Since Jack has been around for over 90 years, there really aren’t many left alive to argue with him. A variety of other devices since have made their way onto the market. Newer variations of the Smith machine, the cambered bar (around since the 40s), the Manta-Ray, the hip squat belt (also around for many years), the safety squat bar, and a multitude of squat machines that mimic the exercise from every conceivable angle.
Over the years the squat had become so revered as "King" that these devices were developed to ensure that all could perform the exercise no matter what their condition. Unfortunately, along with the ascent of the squat came the attitude that insisted everyone squat or confess up to being a girl (no offense ladies) or at the least being in possession of tiny little drug free testicles. This attitude unfortunately has led to many injuries. Just as many men have been busted up by this movement as those who have benefited from it. There are several coaches who will not allow any of their players to go near a squat rack or most of the squat machines out there.
So, where am I going with this review? Am I going to trash the traditional squat, then announce that Dave Draper’s Top Squat saves the day? Not at all, and some of what I am about to say, I have written about before, but it is worth stating again because of its importance.
No matter how good the device, not all are suited to squat. Why? Simple, bio-mechanical individuality. Everyone is different. In our case, we are talking about bone lengths and levers. The ratio of thigh length to torso makes an enormous difference as to whether the squat will be your best friend or worst enemy. Long thighs and short torso’s make a disastrous squatter. That short torso carrying the load on the back of the neck must bend way too far forward in order to maintain ones center of gravity. This places the lower back in a very serious danger zone. The leaning over process drags so many more muscles into the movement that the oxygen demand turns the exercise into a cardiovascular event as opposed to a leg developer.
On the contrary, short femur lengths accompanied by longer torso lengths make excellent squatters. Those short thighs do not set the athlete too far back on his heels and the longer back has such little lean, that the majority of the stress is kept on the quads. Lou Ferrigno was an example of a very big guy who had the perfect mechanics for squats. To see Lou squat was simply amazing. He looked so graceful and at ease and the movement looked effortless. I am pointing out the two extremes here, and in most part, the majority of the population falls in between these poles.
It is up to the strength trainer to coach on an individual basis, to ascertain the mechanical potential of his athletes and determine whether squats will be a safe productive exercise. For years, this just did not happen. Everyone was treated the same and anyone who had difficulty with the movement was simply passed off as one with tight Achilles tendons. Probably the first assistive squat device was the standard 2x4 under the heels. This corrected the balance problem by allowing the lifter to remain more erect by driving his femurs way out over the knees creating a very stressful shearing action on that joint. Again, the problem had nothing to do with tight tendons.
Many of the commercial devices and machines have been marketed as a cure-all for impeded squatters. Today’s technologies have brought many great machines onto the scene and they do in fact keep the athlete safe. However, a long femur without a long back to counter will always be a terrible lever. Especially if the back is forced into a perfectly straight position. Fortunately, many of those who are disadvantaged in the squat tend to have the leverage in dead lifts. Dead lifts and good leg presses are where these trainees should migrate. The trainer should not allow marketing to lure these athletes into a movement that will probably never be productive for them.
Now, we finally arrive at the Top Squat. What can an old former Mr. America from the 1960s add to the fray at this point of the 21st century that will benefit the serious strength coach? Basically, a very simple device. In fact, so simple, reason escapes me as to why something like this hadn’t shown up years ago. Do I like it? Yes. Do I use it myself? No. Why? Because I am one of those squatters whose bio-mechanics will keep him away from any free-style squatting. However, that does not bias me against using the exercise for those who are suited for that movement. When Fred shipped the bar up to me, I knew I would not be using the device much for myself. The bar’s arrival coincided with the return of a young university linebacker named Sean O’Neill who liked squatting but was fresh off shoulder surgery.
Enter the Top Squat, its purpose, and the reason why I like it. Dave Draper, a long time lifter and lover of the squat injured himself in recent years and his ability to perform one of his staple movements was seriously compromised. The injury was to Dave’s shoulder and he was no longer able to reach back to hold and stabilize the bar during the execution of the squat. So once again, necessity spawned innovation. Draper came up with a tool that totally solved his problem. The key here is that the Top Squat was designed to solve a specific problem for those who can already squat. To my knowledge, Draper has made no outrageous claims that he has created a miracle device that will allow all to squat.
These jet-pack styled handle bars and rubber yoke make up the Top Squat. The unit attaches to any squat bar very easily. The bars jut down in front of the chest at about a 45 degree angle making the grip very natural and comfortable. This piece is for the serious squatter who loves the movement and is forced out by a shoulder injury. For the squat purists, you are still doing a free bar or free style squat. The handle bars simply allow you to stabilize the barbell from a neutral position in front of you.
My linebacker client Sean adapted immediately and was very pleased he could once again free bar squat without tearing up his shoulder. After his first experience with the unit, he stated that there were at least 3 more of his teammates who had a similar shoulder problem and could benefit from the Top Squat.
What kind of surprised me was my 6’ 7" cousin "The Bus" who came up out of the gym saying "hey Roachie, I really like that squat thing you got down there. “ he took it upon himself to do some tire kicking and tried it out on his own. What "The Bus" demonstrated was that there is very little coaching necessary for this device if the athlete already knows how to squat. What he also showed was that the unit was not just for those who had shoulder injuries. The Bus has no shoulder issues and said that he will squat with my new "squat thing" from now on simply because he prefers it over the traditional barbell or safety squat bar. So, I stand corrected on the "for bad shoulders only" statement.
The bottom line here is that Draper has come up with a pretty good squatting tool that has filled a specific need. It’s size, ease of use, and very low cost makes it a serious consideration for any coach, especially any in an environment such as football where shoulder problems are common. In fact, it is so cheap in price; it should be a no brainer. But in all fairness I will end by again issuing another warning to all you squat impaired individuals who are not mechanically structured for this exercise, stay away.
This article is from the upcoming issue of the High Performance Training newsletter which will be available September 1, 2004.
For further information on the September issue or to subscribe, please visit our website at http://www.hptnews.com
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Jim Bryan
Total Posts: 380
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Good review of the "Top Squat" by Randy Roach in the current Issue of "High Performance Training Newsletter." Due out in Sept. http://www.hptnews.com/
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brucedl
Total Posts: 2406
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TOP SQUAT 12-21-04 03:05 PM - Post#58829
Hi all,
I haven’t posted before but I have been following this forum for a while now.
I am 59 and have been working out on and off since I was 15. I have a pretty good gym in my garage, but go to a commercial gym with my oldest son to give him some exposure to the wonderful world of the commercial gym.
Since I have gotten some good stuff reading the various posts and seeing that everyone here is friendly and kind, I thought I would pass along a little something of my own.
I haven't seen too much about the TOP SQUAT in the forum except for a review a couple of months ago.
I hadn't done any squats for a few years because of a problem with my left hip. I came to find it was shot and had it replaced last march. I have been doing light leg presses for my legs because I wanted to ease back into strengthening my left leg and not break any new pieces of hardware. My doctor told me I was good to go on whatever leg exercises I wanted to do at my last visit. I told him the amount of weight I used to use and got a blank look. I'll be taking it easy for a while until I get used to squatting again.
So... after the hip was fixed I needed to address the fact that I also had a lot of pain in my shoulders when I would try to get in position to do squats.
After agonizing over spending more money on equipment I ordered Dave's "TOP SQUAT". When it came I was like a little kid, I quickly unpacked it and went right out to the garage and hooked it to the Olympic bar and tried it out.
I felt like I was reborn!!! I could do squats again and wasn't in any pain.
Thanks Dave, as one old Bomber to another I really appreciate that piece of equipment...cause there's nothing to compare with squats IMHO!
Just wanted to bring that up in case some one else might benefit from my experience.
Bruce
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wayne
Total Posts: 718
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good luck on your trying to get leg strength back.welcome and enjoy your new toy.your experience is warmly welcomed.
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lunchbox
Total Posts: 168
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you know ive wondered about that thing. does it feel like doing regular squats? or does the positioning of the back/shoulders change the feel of the movement? if so, is it better or worse than regular squats as far as leg development goes?
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brucedl
Total Posts: 2406
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It feels fairly similiar to regular squats. I am still in the stage of fine tuning my technique again. It is very comfortable and I am sure I will get the same results using it. When I was younger I routinely squated with over 405 all the way down for 6 reps during my workouts. That was at a body weight of 205.
I think anyone of average intelligence will have no problem using this thing and like the fact that you don't have a bar digging into your traps. Some guys without shoulder problems won't care to use it because they really don't need it. For the guys who get screeming pain in their shoulders when they try to get under the bar, it's a blessing.
Bruce
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garyed
Total Posts: 10226
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I am toying with the idea of ordering one.. but the christmas expense account is really tight right now.. I think I might be able to use one in a week or two.as my flexibility improves..but I will wait and see i suppose.
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DennisH
Total Posts: 2884
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I've had the Top Squat for quite a while now and love it. Being able to balance the bar on the shoulders without having to contort the shoulders is great. I, along with many others here, would highly recommend it.
Dennis
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Bill Keyes
Total Posts: 2558
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I could not recommend the TS more highly. I love it and it is a big hit at my gym where I leave it between workouts so the 'anointed' can use it.
Bill2
Integrity is what you do when you think nobody is watching. |
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Manor
Total Posts: 6773
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I've had mine for quite a long time as well. I have no shoulder problems or any other ailments I use it as a preventative device. I do 5x5 with 275 lbs and I have done 20 reps with 280 lbs, I look forward to breaking PRs knowing the safety factor is there. My whole family uses it for squatting.
aka SAVAGE/JDIDAN/Dan the Protein Man
You can't choose your parents however you can choose your lifestyle
Earn your supplements
The most important stack you can do are big plates.- Sweatn |
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Tom Canavan
Total Posts: 116
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A friend who was a competitive drug-free powerlifter (before a shoulder injury)has been using the TOP SQUAT for about a year - he is 57 yrs old and still has
the competitive fire. Yesterday he did 500 lbs.x 2 and we were all wondering
what kind of lifts others with similar background/situations are getting with
the TOP SQUAT?
Also interested if any powerlifting federations, local/national, are talking about the use of the TOP SQUAT in their meets ?
Any input would be appreciated !
Thanks,
Tom
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Laree
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Hey, Tom -- how ya been?! Great to see you here... I know of one guy for sure who uses the T/S with over 500 pounds regularly. I don't think he competes, though. And I sincerely doubt if a federation will use a top squat in competition... that'd be a stretch, wouldn't it? Can you imagine the controversy that would generate, considering the various federations already argue about wraps and suits and all? ouch! Don't *even* want to be in the middle of that one! Looking forward to meeting you here in July, Tom... can't wait... Dave's planning on finding a place to set up a Dungeon, so we can play around with a top squat in its natural setting. :~)
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DavidB
Total Posts: 142
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I am also 57 but not a competitive lifter, just in my own gym. The top squat has been a blessing because of my long legs I can remain more upright which is especially nice since a recent disc injury. Alas, I cannot say that I am into 500 lbs. .
| you can't stop getting old but you can slow down growing up |
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Lon
Total Posts: 240
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I do too in my regular training . I put stainless steel clamps on each end so it really clamps on to the Barbell.
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gem1
Total Posts: 825
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Hi Tom,
I havn't been trying singles with the top squat however for workout poundages I'm about 5% less than with a regular bar. With that said though I think I'm probably going lower(below paralell)than I was.
Guy
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wayne
Total Posts: 718
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just started using it myself.love it.squating straighter and deeper.using about 10lbs.less
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Laree
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Wayne, does that include the weight of the top squat bar? Sometimes people forget to add that back in. 10 pounds for the plain metal, 15 for the polyurethane-coated one.
Dave's got something tweaking in his leg right now and hasn't pushed it lately, although he's still squatting regularly and moderately heavy, but when he first started using it he went to 420 fairly quickly, which was 50 or more pounds heavier than he was using without the top squat if I remember right.
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Manor
Total Posts: 6773
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I have been using mine since I got it, over a year now? It helped me push some barriers and when I did squats sans the TS my form was tighter, I knew exactly when I deviated from form and corrected it immediately. It's not only a great tool if you have shoulder issues that prevented you from squatting but it is also a great tool to learn the mechanics of the movement. My kids have squatted with and without and their form was perfect in each case.
aka SAVAGE/JDIDAN/Dan the Protein Man
You can't choose your parents however you can choose your lifestyle
Earn your supplements
The most important stack you can do are big plates.- Sweatn |
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wayne
Total Posts: 718
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laree that does include the 15 lbs for the ts.i think the reason i'm down about 10 lbs.is because i'm going a bit deeper and i'm squating straighter.also ,last cycle,i included more full body wo's and i think it kinda took some oomph outa me.i've learnt to do heavy /light day. now ,i'm a little more acclimated to full body wo's and we'll see how i do this cycle.i love this thing and look forward to future progress.
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garyed
Total Posts: 10226
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Quote:
wayne said:
laree that does include the 15 lbs for the ts.i think the reason i'm down about 10 lbs.is because i'm going a bit deeper and i'm squating straighter.also ,last cycle,i included more full body wo's and i think it kinda took some oomph outa me.i've learnt to do heavy /light day. now ,i'm a little more acclimated to full body wo's and we'll see how i do this cycle.i love this thing and look forward to future progress.
I got an unpadded TS.. it weighs about 9 lbs.. It works great.. but if I was going to go heavy..i would want to clamp the bar in place.. it does shift a little and when lifting heavy you don't need any distractions.. I would guess that the padded version fits more snugly. It worked well for my purposes..rehab..
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brucedl
Total Posts: 2406
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I have the padded version and it is very comfortable. I haven't used more than about 140 with it because of a total hip replacement the end of last march. It fits tight to the bar and doesn't move at all. It's a great piece of equipment. Just what I would expect from Dave and Laree.
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Ken Friberg
Total Posts: 266
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I know this has come up before, but I can't remember what the answer was. I've got the padded model, if that makes a difference. Thanks
| Ken F
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Laree
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Padded is 15; metal is 10.
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garyed
Total Posts: 10226
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Quote:
Laree said:
Padded is 15; metal is 10.
On a scale.. mine added 9 lbs..I weighed myself.. with and without.. but obviously there is some margin for error on a bodyweight scale..
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Ken Friberg
Total Posts: 266
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Thanks!
| Ken F
----
Is there something wrong with eating three pounds of bacon at one sitting? |
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irishfireman
Total Posts: 23
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i love the top squat.i use it all the time when i workout in the firehouse.although some idiot thru out the straps so it,s kind of difficult to balance now.
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Tom DiMaggio
Total Posts: 50
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I have been using it for a couple of months. I can again squat without shoulder stiffness and discomfort. It's one of the most practical pieces of equipment I ever purchased.
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ArtH
Total Posts: 804
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I just could not pass up the special price on the all iron Top Squat. My shoulders have been aching for several months now during squats. The Top Squat arrived and like a kid with a new toy I could not wait to try it out. I ripped open the box and took it back to my dungeon gym area. I hooked it up to the squat bar easily and tried out a few empty bar squats. Wow ! Now I can hardly wait until squat day Tuesday....Dave, you are a genious ! God bless,
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DennisH
Total Posts: 2884
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You're gonna love it, Art!
Dennis
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Berry
Total Posts: 1979
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I've been wanting on of these for almost a year now, so suddenly being in an envious mood, I guess I'm going to have to break down and spring for it. It seems everyone who has one loves it and loves squating that much more. Thanks for helping me decide Art.
/\./\./\./\./\./\./\./\
Lift Long and Prosper
"Until the possible becomes actual, it is only a distraction" Jedi Master Qui-Gon
"That which you give thought to is that which you begin to invite into you experience." Abraham-Hicks, The Law of Attraction.
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Laree
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If anyone here has tried both the metal and the polyurethane coated, I'd be interested in comments. Art, I'll make sure Dave sees your compliment.
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Deston Fallon
Total Posts: 333
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It's like cheating . . . . somewhat of a front squat feel. I have one that is coated.
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DennisH
Total Posts: 2884
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Quote:
Deston Fallon said:
It's like cheating . . . . somewhat of a front squat feel. I have one that is coated.
I have the poly coated one as well. Seems like it would be easier on the shoulders and neck than the bare metal.
Dennis
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Bill Keyes
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Quote:
Laree said:
If anyone here has tried both the metal and the polyurethane coated, I'd be interested in comments.
I like the polyurethane unit. The added diameter spreads the pressure over a wider area while the metal unit more closely duplicates the feel of the bar.
Bill2
Integrity is what you do when you think nobody is watching. |
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Anonymous
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You guys make me jealous.This knee implant takes squats right out of my routine!!
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Anonymous
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I have the polyurethane unit and love it. My shoulder pain has finally departed.
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ArtH
Total Posts: 804
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Did my first squat workout last night with the Top Squat. In order to get used to it we just took it easy and did the following: 1 set of 10... empty bar 1 set of 10... 225 1 set of 8 ... 275 1 set of 6... 300 1 set of 4.... 315 1 set of 4.... 330 I have the metal unit and calle me old fashion but I love the feel of steel when lifting. Both me with sholder problems and my son-in-law who has no shoulder problems yet love this thing. It takes a little getting used to during the walkout and when returning the bar to the rack as we needed to develop trust in the Top Squat but by the end of our sets we were both very confident using it. I also liked moving the handles up and down slightly to locate the "perfect squat" position. We also used it when doing calf raises and that too was very cool ! If you and Dave even need another testimonial for Top Squat you can count on me. God's blessings,
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Atek
Total Posts: 18
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Polyurethane unit here. I bought it while having some left shoulder and arm pain , pain was there with or without it but after many chiro visits the pain is now gone and the top squat is still worth the money. Much easier to balance the bar for calf raises and squats.
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Tom DiMaggio
Total Posts: 50
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I too have the padded model. I wouldn't be without it. the shoulder discomfort is a thing of the past.
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ArtH
Total Posts: 804
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My son-in-law and I are still enjoying squat day with our Top Squat and continuing to make some nice progress. When we were squatting yesterday, Rob noticed that he had quite an impression on his shoulder from one of the support bars on the Top Squat. I know we're not too wide aldready to fit in the Top Squat. Is this because we are keeping the unit too low on our backs ? Thanks IOL family and God bless,
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Anonymous
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Quote:
ArtH said:
I know we're not too wide aldready to fit in the Top Squat.
It's a nice thought though, isn't it? :)
Hey Art, sure hope you guys can make it up to the bash. How is the gym going?
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olddog
Total Posts: 5248
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Quote:
ArtH said:
Is this because we are keeping the unit too low on our backs ?
Thats what it sounds like to me. I set mine right behind the traps and hold the handles about 45 degrees or maybe just a bit lower. Haven't noticed any indentions.
The force of gravity is constant.
Life is short, dance naked and wiggle your butt:))
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"There's no magic other than to keep plowing through until hopefully it makes sense."
Laree Draper
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Deston Fallon
Total Posts: 333
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I see . . . . you are holding the handles "UP" and in front vs. "DOWN" and in front???
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Gregthebody
Total Posts: 2949
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Has anyone every tried the "Zane" leg blaster versus the top squat ?
Greg
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Realtime
Total Posts: 84
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I have the leg blaster, but not the top squat. I got it after I had knee surgery, and it really helped me squat again, and rehab my legs. Now that I can do regular front squats again, I just use it for standing calf raises, but when my knees hurt I go back to it and do front squats. I haven't got any shoulder problems, so the top squat doesn't seem like the right thing for me (knock on wood).
What's cool about the leg blaster is that you can put your feet forward, hold on and lean back, and do a kind of front squat where you can keep your knees behind your toes as you squat. This takes a tremendous amount of pressure off your knees. For that, I've been very thankful.
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Manor
Total Posts: 6773
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Let me try to explain this as best I can without being there to see. The weight should sit comfortably across the shoulders behind the neck. You should not struggle standing there with the weight, it should not feel like it is falling back on you and you should feel no pain, just heavy :) I would not hold the handle bars in a fixed position throughout the movement, I would let them rotate naturally, as they have a tendency to roll up as you go down and then roll back into the start position as you rise. If you have a “pinching” feeling in the lower neck area, re-rack ASAP and adjust position. I have the padded version and at first I did get some “markings” now I don’t so maybe my skin got tougher, hee hee.
aka SAVAGE/JDIDAN/Dan the Protein Man
You can't choose your parents however you can choose your lifestyle
Earn your supplements
The most important stack you can do are big plates.- Sweatn |
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Laree
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Dan's got the rotation right. Maybe you have a combination of starting with the bar too low, and also trying to hold it stiffly in position. I've never heard of this problem before, actually. You do want to start with the bar fairly high on your back. Then, as you let the handles move naturally, they'll shift as you descend. The handles will go up and the bar will move down on your back a bit into a low-bar position until you change direction.
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ArtH
Total Posts: 804
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Thanks everyone. You're thoughts and recommendations have been duly noted and we will try that during our next workout. I love this group.
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