09-11-04 12:41 PM - Post#34955    

Of all the threads we've seen on weight loss (meaning, hopefully, fat loss), from Extreme Dieting to Help! I want to lose 100 pounds!, we've covered exercise, supplements and diet, but haven't really addressed the underlying issues: What caused the fat gain in the first place? Until that reason is determined -- different in each of us -- no diet can possibly succeed over the long term. Even if a short-term loss is achieved, the weight will be regained, that and more usually.

I came up with a base of six causes of fat gain, the six main causes I've traversed; others may have new thoughts to contribute. Each of the reasons I've been caught up in require different solutions, yet for 35 years I've always thrust myself into the same answer: diet some more, only try a different diet this time.

Let's see if you can relate to any of these fattening problems.

1) Lack of exercise, no muscle

2) Bad food choices, ignorance

3) Appetite, always hungry

4) Habit, and physical addiction to sugar

5) Emotions, eating to relieve stress, boredom, for reward

6) Unbalanced chemistry, estrogen, testosterone, seratonin and more

When we look at the list and think about each element, it's clear that simply dieting or eating this herb or that expensive weight-loss supplement won't address the real issue, meaning if (spelled with capitals I and F) the supplementation works, the weight will come back with a vengeance in the not-too-distance future.

I have some thoughts on how to address each issue, too, and hope others will contribute to a thread we can archive for visitors in the future.

Re: A different kind of fat loss discussion
09-11-04 01:06 PM - Post#34956    

Quote:

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Laree said:

2) Bad food choices, ignorance

3) Appetite, always hungry

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My success in keeping my fat loss permanent is due to a lifestyle change and this phrase which I first read from Clarence Bass, "Nothing tastes as good as being lean feels".

The foods I eat now were not a big part of my diet a few years and 60 lbs ago.
Shopping in the supermarket now is along the sides, very rarely down the middle isles. Veggies, dairy and mostly just whole foods, and I eat a lot more now than I did when I was fat. Of course the exercise and metabolism boost from weight training have a lot to do with the amount of food I can now consume.

I now can't seem to get enough calories in to gain the muscle I want so badly and I thought I would always love to have the problem of trying to gain weight ;-)

Re: A different kind of fat loss discussion
09-11-04 02:33 PM - Post#34957    

Quote:

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Laree said:

6) Unbalanced chemistry, estrogen, testosterone, seratonin and more

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This one is a real bear. Especially for women in their 40s, there are some hormonal changes beginning to happen, and there is that natural propensity for putting on abdominal fat. A high protein, low-carb diet like the one I'm doing now, with carbo loading during the weekends, seems to have put the lid on my moodswings and cravings for now. Sometimes fine tuning is needed. But it has been a battle, especially when after four weeks of strict dieting the results seemed to be nil. That's when I began dialing into other possible problems, adding an herbal diuretic and Trader Joe's "Very Green" to my mix of supplements which contains spirulina and green tea to spark my sluggish system. That seems to have helped. Things seem to be moving forward. What we're all fighting is system stasis, hoping for the great metabolic shift. I was so thin for so long and now that I am able to put on mass, I have to now trick my system back into swinging the other way. New stuff to learn, new tricks.

But I know people whose systems are so out of whack that dieting almost seems out of the question. That's when things get very difficult. They need to start gradually. Then they need to really focus on keeping hope and patience together. It's hard, but once the payoff starts to happen, and you feel better, things start to snowball towards success. So often, it's the body chemistry that's the wild card. When you're fighting with it you tend to feel fairly hopeless - but that frame of mind is directly related to the problem in question. Quite a pickle. Which reminds me, why am I craving so much salt? Geez. It's always something.

Re: A different kind of fat loss discussion
09-11-04 02:49 PM - Post#34958    

Laree,

There is one more cause of being overweight/overfat, which came as a big surprise to me. Being as brief as I can, it came down to this. After consulting with both a nutritionist and personal trainer, I was told that my habit of eating 1000 calories less than what I needed on a daily basis, and consuming them in just two big meals, was flooring my metabolism.

In my case, a major part of the key was eating more, and more often.

Ron

Re: A different kind of fat loss discussion
09-11-04 03:40 PM - Post#34959    

I'd like to use this thread to point out that each person needs to identify his or her own specific barrier to fat loss, and to make an archive of the various ways to address each major problem. Rather than list a new diet every time someone asks (and I'm not saying that we won't, because we surely will... it's unending), if we can help each other discover our own personal trigger it will go a long way toward permanent, healthy fixes and lean, strong bodies.

In my own case, I've dealt with each of the 6 I listed, and, in fact, with the Extreme Diet experiment earlier this spring, I jumped headlong and purposefully into Ron's number 7 on the list. Where I ended up after that episode was smack-dab in the depths of number 6, Really Messed-Up Chemistry, in which I'm learning a lot and having slow, steady success that I'll share as personal experience as we go along, in the event it helps others.

Re: A different kind of fat loss discussion
09-11-04 04:09 PM - Post#34960    

I think one of the really important factors you mention is hormonal.
This is true for men & women. With this change in hormonal level as
we age...oftentimes depression takes hold and the downward spiral
becomes entrenched. Physical activity (weight training) becomes even
more important then (at least to me) because it keeps "the demon outside"
and even if I'm in a temporary "holding" phase ie.no fat loss, no increase
in poundage of weights lifted, I consider it to be successful since there
is no backsliding. For the past 4 months my weight has stabilized at
a level + or - four pounds. This is with working out about 3-4 times per week
and trying to be careful in my diet...if this was 10-15 years ago...I'm
sure I would be where I think I should be by now. But with this lifestyle
change stress is reduced and depression held at bay...one day at a time.
As I sucessful...you bet...am I pleased...only when I am able to stick
to 5 small meals a day!

Re: A different kind of fat loss discussion
09-11-04 05:11 PM - Post#34961    

Fortunately, I don't have to deal with fat loss issues with my metabolism. even I wonder at it sometimes. My son-in-law, , 20 years my junior, thought he had to eat as I do to keep up the work pace and gained 20 something pounds. As I said I'm blessed but I do know , from experience with very close freinds, that weight gain in some cases has to do with emotional issues. When those people dealt with those first, as in the Lord, their weight dropped more towards normal. It seems some people eat to fill that hole that's left from a lack of , basically , love in their lives, or only one parent, or an abusive parent or what have you. Today the issues that destroy people are rampant. Anyway, until people gain some sort of healing or release from these issues , weight gain is a big problem.

you can't stop getting old but you can slow down growing up

Re: A different kind of fat loss discussion
09-11-04 05:29 PM - Post#34962    

You are right. Just look at all the pharmaceutical ads on TV...if someone
didn't have a problem after watching those ads they would probably think
they weren't normal.

Re: A different kind of fat loss discussion
09-11-04 05:37 PM - Post#34963    

2) Bad food choices, (I wish I could claim ignorance)
4) Habit, and physical addiction to sugar
5) Emotions, eating to relieve stress, boredom, for reward

For a #2, 4, 5 person like myself it is all intertwined. I eat out of habit or emotion and when I do eat its junk food and does spark the desire for more junk food/sugar thing. It starts with the mind for me. Any diet will work for me, provided I get my mind right. But right for the diet's time lenght or right for life? Therein lies the issue. Making peace with food not being a reward or consolation - cigarettes used to be that WITH food...

all of this just highlights my personal need to deal with the mind and not 'diet'. How to do that? uh yeah, if I knew fully would I be carrying some extra fat around - no.

I think I am the poster child for the 'it will come back' thing, a living piece of research to back up your hypothesis.

Re: A different kind of fat loss discussion
09-11-04 06:38 PM - Post#34964    

Laree,

As somebody who was a fat adolescent (many moons ago).I was soft and out of shape. My mother used to buy my clothes in the "husky" section.I couldnt even do one pushup or one chinup. I just made up my mind one day that I didn't want to be a fat kid any more. I joined a gym and stuck to it. Freud might say that i was overcompensating for something.
I got into long distance running in the 70's and 80's and soon I was running marathons.
There is a very big component of the weight roller coaster that is all mental.If you want anything bad enough you will do what it takes to make it a reality.
Sure it's harder the older you get, but you have to just keep on keeping on.

walk slow and lift heavy,

John G.

Re: A different kind of fat loss discussion
09-11-04 09:08 PM - Post#34965    

Habit and emotions....boy those two hit home...for me it is a constent battle with myself to control eating...I don't necessarily overeat unhealthy food just too much of good foods....it is all in my mind..I find that if I am very busy all the time then food isn't a problem or if others are around...it's like I have to have someone be my food police!!!!!!!.....

Being successful in losing weight and keeping it off is an accomplishment but I would like to not have to deal with the devil on one shoulder and the angel on the other!!!!!!

AB

Obsessed is a word the lazy use to describe the dedicated!!!

Re: A different kind of fat loss discussion
09-11-04 10:01 PM - Post#34966    

Number 6 covers me apperantly all of my life. I didn't find out what was wrong untill late in life. My mother was out of wack also all of her life. She wouldn't do anything about it. I have. Arn't genes wounderful ? HA ship

It don't matter

Re: A different kind of fat loss discussion
09-11-04 11:05 PM - Post#34967    

For me, it's been mostly #5 all my life. I used to use it to relieve stress, and a most dangerously (to me) for reward. I never used it to temper emotions.

In the last year I am living proof that #1 is a huge factor too. Going from a very fit and happy person instantaneously to a relatively sedentary post-accident pile of my former self was difficult. I was amazed at how quickly I lost the great muscle strength and definition simply due to the fact that I couldn't use my body. It all turned to fat of course.

It's amazing how an accident that should have taken your life can change your perspective... I no longer struggle with #5. I've also found that having been relatively fit before, the muscle and cardiovascular strength has come back very quickly. My resting heart rate is down to 52 and I'm on the road back to a lean mean body.

It's time to move on,time to get going, What lies ahead, I have no way of knowing, But under my feet baby, grass is growing, It's time to move on, it's time to get going... Lyrics and music by Tom Petty

Re: A different kind of fat loss discussion
09-12-04 12:31 PM - Post#34968    

The discipline thing is always there. I came down from 242@ 30% to 167@ 11% and now at 180 @13%. It never ends, for me anyway(discipline.)
One thought that keeps me on track; I think to myself " If a genetic superior like Dave Draper has to eat clean, what makes me think I don't have to as well.
Being a genetic in-superior I try to visualize myself in their shoes so to speak.
Kent

Re: A different kind of fat loss discussion
09-12-04 01:10 PM - Post#34969    

All the people who've written in so far and those who will add their thoughts later are here to tell you getting a new fat burner supplement is not the answer. There's a place for fat burners, but it's limited to athletes cutting the last few pounds for a bodybuilding contest or dieters who have, fixed the problems below, nearly met their goals and need a final push.

For most of us, we need to first identify our major obstacle(s) and implement the remedy in order to begin our progress.

So... now let's flesh this out with some solutions, shall we? What do you do to fix the problem?

Quote:

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1) Lack of exercise, no muscle

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This one and number 2 below are the easiest to fix. If you're not exercising, start. Start with a walk out the front door, get moving. You can learn the ins and outs of weight training and figure out how to join a gym soon, but right now you've got to put yourself in motion... today. Pull on some sweatpants and walk. If you can, walk and jog. Do this every day this week and then come back and we'll point you in the right direction to get started on a weight training program.

Meanwhile, if you haven't already done this, order Dave's book Your Body Revival!

http://www.davedraper.com/Merchant2/merc...Category_Code=B

And if you have a little extra time right now, Stella has more information for you here:

http://bodybuilding.about.com/

... and we've collected our IronOnline sample workouts here:

http://davedraper.com/iron-online-sample-workouts.html

Quote:

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2) Bad food choices, ignorance

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When you eat whatever it is you eat, do you automatically know the macronutrients contained therein? Without this knowledge, a new diet someone suggests won't help much, so start fixing your ignorance now. Go to your kitchen and read the labels of your favorite foods. Are you eating all carbs and fat and no protein? Write down your food intake of an average day, then go to http://www.fitday.com and build a day's profile of those foods. What is your normal macronutrient percentage?

If you're an average adult on a North American diet, you're probably ultra high in carbohydrates and fat and low in protein; if you're female, it's probably worse.

You can fine-tune this in a couple of weeks, but for today why don't you target your meals in thirds? 33% protein, 33% fats, 33% carbohydrates. Work on this for a while and come back when you've got this fixed and we'll help you hone this down to a perfect diet for your future.

Here's the USDA nutrient database to search out your common foods:

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

Dave's written a simple guide to good nutrition, here:

http://davedraper.com/general-nutrition.html

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3) Appetite, always hungry

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This one's relatively easy, too, assuming we're talking about true hunger.

Start here: Drink water (not only is it filling, but sometimes thirst is confused with hunger -- it can feel the same); eat more protein; add healthy fats (EFAs) to your diet; eliminate sugar.

When all the above are done, if appetite is still a problem, try the herb Hoodia Gordonil leaf. It's not a diet pill; you won't feel it other than perhaps noticing a decreased need to eat often. Once you've broken the appetite -- let's say a month or so -- you won't need the supplemental help, assuming you continue with the water, protein, fats and low sugar intake.

Here's more on healthy fats (EFAs -- essential fatty acids), if this is a new term for you:

http://davedraper.com/essential-fatty-acids.html

Quote:

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4) Habit, and physical addiction to sugar

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Has eating a certain type of food at a specific time of day become habitual for you? Usually this is seen as a high-sugar or high-salt carbohydrate afternoon or before-bed snack, or perhaps even a middle-of-the-night raid on the fridge. This is very common and could possibly be the only fix you'll need to make to meet your bodyweight goal.

Physical addiction to sugar is real, and if you have it, you'll want something sweat at about the same time every day. This includes non-sweet carbohydrates, which become "sugar" during the break-down process, triggering insulin and seratonin release. It's not as hard to break as a nicotine addiction, but it's still hard and will take your purposeful attention. The good news is it only takes about four days to break; the habit will be gone unless you willingly let yourself get caught up in the process again.

To break the habit once you've identified it, you'll have to fill that time slot up with something else, either another activity entirely or another soothing intake such as herbal tea. Or how about this? Train yourself as an athlete and replace your afternoon potato chip gorge with a can of tuna, a glass of water with lemon and a fork.

Food intolerances (allergies) fit into this category, too. If you always crave the same food, there's a change you're allergic to it, which sometimes creates an addiction and often causes bloat or hormonal imbalances and retention of fat weight. You got a regular craving? Begin eliminating that food and see if you notice a difference.

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5) Emotions, eating to relieve stress, boredom, for reward

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Do you find yourself in the kitchen, standing with the fridge open, wondering what to eat and knowing you're not even hungry? Did you just eat, but eating didn't do the trick, even though your stomach is full?

These are not food or diet issues that need to be addressed here, and no combination of foods we can offer will help until you solve the core problem: What's triggering the need to eat?

If you have a low-grade depression, whether caused by desperate life and death issues, financial pressures, unhappy family situation or an unidentified chemistry problem, it always results in low seratonin. Low seratonin feels like a permanent black cloud; even bright days and happy events feel dull. Carbohydrates cause a seratonin release and physically make a person with low seratonin feel better for a little while. Bingo! Gotta fix this one first.

Depending on what caused the problem in the first place, the fix could be easy or hard. For instance, if you're an ex-alcoholic, you're very likely to have low seratonin and need an anti-depressant prescription for the rest of your life. Sound yucky? Not so bad as a black cloud over your head forever! Go for the meds.

If you have real stresses in life that are bringing you down, but are not completely impossible, you can make a test run on lifting your seratonin levels with the supplement 5-HTP. Try it three times a day for a week; if it's going to work for you, believe me, you'll know very quickly as each day brightens. Then you'll feel hopeful and able to take on the issues and solve the problems that caused the problem in the first place. Fixing a low-grade depression will go a long way toward curing emotional eating problems.

Here's more on the symptoms and solutions if you think you might be depressed.

http://www.clinical-depression.co.uk/Depression_Information/symptoms.htm

And an online questionnaire to help identify depression:

http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?id=973&type=doc&cn=Depression%20(Unipolar)

Identifying the last two, eating to relieve boredom or for reward, should set you on a path to fix them. Boredom can be filled up with the activity of your choice -- pick a hobby you've always wanted to pursue and get started, or finish that household chore that's been nagging at you all year -- and there are plenty of rewards other than food if you take the time to choose your favorites.

Finally, related to this category is guilt. If you feel like you're living a lie, it's time to address it. Let's say you post your great workouts in the forum, yet gobble a bag of McDonald's goop in the car before you get home to fix dinner, you've got a problem that needs attention. Take some time alone next weekend and sort this out so you can fix it. You're alone on this one and you alone can fix it -- no magic fat burner scientists will ever come up with will fix this one.

Quote:

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6) Unbalanced chemistry, estrogen, testosterone, seratonin, thyroid and more

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This is possibly the hardest to solve, because our hormones are released or suppressed for a variety of reasons, most that we don't even realize are ongoing. Some are age-related; our sex hormones (estrogen and testosterone in particular, both of which men and women have) and growth hormone naturally decrease with age. Some change with trauma; for instance, thyroid often goes south after a major surgery. Others are stress-related; cortisol and adrenaline are high under stress conditions, while seratonin is low. Even good stress, such as an inspired workout session, causes a release of cortisol, so you can see how difficult an issue this can be.

My recommendation is to attend to the other elements of this list first -- exercise, food choices, bad habits, etc. -- and come to the hormone issue last. If you've truly got your diet and exercise dialed and you simply cannot budge the tape measure wrapped around your waste, it's probably a hormone problem.

Unrelated to weight loss issues, it's still a good idea to have your hormones checked as you age. Anything too high or too low is going to cause you some grief, even if your bodyweight satisfies you.

A peri-menopausal woman, a menopausal woman, or a post-menopausal woman (either natural or post-hysterectomy) will all have hormonal issues -- some good, some bad -- and should take the time to learn the facts. Get a blood panel every year or two and make your hormone replacement decisions purposefully, rather than from a 90-second clip on CNN or your doctor's rushed prescription shoved in your sweaty hand.

Here's a real good place to start your HRT education:

http://hormonediva.com/

Here's Dr. Karlis Ullis on men's HRT, not yet talked about much outside athletic circles, but on the horizon of general medicine:

http://www.musclemonthly.com/articles/010515/010515-ullis-hormone-replacement-therapy.htm

If you have even more time, spend it at John Berardi's hormone article pages:

http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/hormones/index.htm

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7) Starvation diet, metabolism slowed to maintain

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As hard as this is to believe, it's true: Ultra-low calorie diets slow the metabolism to match the calorie intake. Even using perfect nutrition and supplementation, if you go too low, your fat loss will stop, and at the same time, your body will suffer under stress, causing a high level of the stress hormone cortisol, bad juju. We don't seem to know how long this process takes; some researchers guess it begins in under a week, but my personal experience points toward weeks, perhaps a month or more.

You can read the details of that experiment under the Extreme Diet thread, here:

http://www.davedraper.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=1328

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The above is a pretty good overview of the main problems that need attention before one will succeed at fat loss over the long term. Continue reading other thoughts the forum members will have on their personal success and failure, and possible solutions for you in your wholesome endeavor. Get your exercise and ask your questions here on the board and we'll help.

Re: A different kind of fat loss discussion
09-12-04 01:40 PM - Post#34970    

For me, it's #2 and #3. I have a huge appetite and don't always make the right choices. I'de spend 5 hours a day lifting if I could eat as I pleased. Oh well, such is life.

Peace ~ Bear

Re: A different kind of fat loss discussion
09-12-04 03:48 PM - Post#34971    

Wow – super-fantastic and comprehensive post, Laree! Thank you!

For me, the main "nut" of this thread is what’s behind the 6 categories. In many cases, it's pretty simple, such as the hormonal/genetic changes that KO, TomS, Cajin and others mentioned - or an accident like Khartoum described.

Of course I'm experiencing some biochemical shifts as I progress through my forties. Perhaps the biggest changes along these lines took place years ago after I quit drugs and alcohol - big (metabolic, emotional)change! (this probably doesn't merit a separate category, and Laree covered it regarding antidepressants – it’s also pretty much a combination of 4,5 and 6).

Most addicts with experience in recovery can tell you about the seductive pull of immediate gratification and how some degree of spiritual fitness helps develop the discipline to delay that gratification. So many people here on IOL are living proof of the tremendous transformative power of the mind, and I take a huge amount of inspiration from their stories. I'm guessing many of them have been able to muster the will to change because of "something else" - It's THAT thing that I am most interested in. For example what is it in Amazonblonde that made her one day decide to lose 60 pounds and what has helped her keep it off? Did Jan ever dream one day she'd be a personal trainer and "fitchick"? What's behind it all?

By the way, I am not meaning in any way to try and assess anybody's spiritual growth - it's just another piece of the puzzle that's intriguing to me as regards fitness and personal betterment.

Re: A different kind of fat loss discussion
09-13-04 02:01 AM - Post#34972    

Laree

Thank you for all the points.

I will keep it for later when its gonna be my battle... now its the other way .... eat eat eat ... then a little more...

TC
Subeer

Life's a rock 'n roll Means you keep rocking and rolling, no matter what, no matter how much; while people feel that you have to smash into the rocks and roll into a ditch...

Re: A different kind of fat loss discussion
09-13-04 10:51 AM - Post#34973    

I have been a 2, 4 and 6 person for quite a while. Somewhere in here I feel the need to add something about my heart; I am not sure where to put it.

After my surgery it became clear to me that I am getting much more return on my effort. My kid will tell you that prior to my heart attack I have worked very hard and ate very clean (although I did not for years before that) yet I continued to not get all the results I wanted.

I have always seemed to stall around 10 - 12%. Nothing budges me off this. More cardio and cleaner eating seems to just cause me to lose weight, not fat.

Now that I have a new set of pipes, so to speak, I do seem to be able to affect my composition better. I am hoping to get below 10% by the end of the year.

/sk

Re: A different kind of fat loss discussion
09-13-04 12:21 PM - Post#34974    

I think it bores down to self-image, which also encompasses emotional aspects whether they be derived by abuse or not and external environmental influences, either by peer or media. Ok so my little sentence seemed to make sense in my head, but then it’s a scary place. What I am trying to say is that it boils down to self-image, as perceived by you or others. What influences self-image is highly emotional, and this is also derived from within and externally and this can be abusive or encouraging. You have an internal dialogue, what you keep telling yourself about you, and external dialogue, what others say to you or what you think they are saying to you in an un-verbalized way. So if you keep telling yourself you are fat, then you will be fat and the pattern (Lifestyle) you will lead will be that one which evolves around fatness, which most people associate fat with lazy, I’m simplifying here but you get the idea. If you were abused in some way, you may want to have people not be attractive to you, so again, you will make choices that will make you unattractive. It comes down to that doesn’t it? Choices, we can either choose to be fat or choose to be fit, we make extreme choices for extreme situations sometimes, dieting being one of them and like Laree said, dieting should be for a purpose not a be all for end all. People can be very motivating, provide empowerment etc. I learned something while taking a leadership course, simply this, as a leader my job is not to motivate you. The responsibility lies with you. You have to motivate yourself. As leaders we can provide tools that help you along the way, however it comes down to you and you are accountable to yourself. Sharing success stories is a tool, as well as this forum. You have to take control of your life and seek out what sabotages your progress, your growth (I’m not talking muscle growth) to self-fulfilment, personal growth or even spiritual growth for those that this applies to. The greatest saboteur is yourself, once you believe you are not worthy, prone to failure you will undoubtedly fail or feel worthless. You have to start with the negatives, focus on solutions not on the causes such as “I eat poorly” Do not dwell on the reasons you eat poorly, such as “It was a tough day”, “I feel down” “I’m sick today” When you should be looking for a solution, don’t eat poorly! Keep eating clean, you don’t have to be a fanatic about it, one thing that people do often which sets them up for failure is to go too quickly, they try to clean up their diets overnight, it becomes a difficult task, a lot of withdrawal happens, think about it, you didn’t eat clean for umpteen years and then expect to eat properly overnight? You haven’t really exercised before, yet you want to change your program after 4 days because “You don’t feel it” or “You don’t see results”. A positive attitude goes a long way, however everything has it’s limits, if the demons are not taken care of, if your internal dialogue is not in check then you are going nowhere. President John F. Kennedy said “Don’t ask what America can do for you, ask what you can do for America.” Same thing applies here, don’t ask what can be done for you, but what can you do for yourself, only you know what you want, what you need and what obstacles you face. Once you are in the right frame of mind, the rest will become simpler, diet will be easier, see it as a challenge, don’t ask what can you eat, educate yourself and find out what you can eat, exercise is easier, learn what to do, don’t be a robot and just do it, find out why you ‘re doing it, find out what best works for you. People willingly give advice and then it comes down again to choices. Surround yourself with positive people, keep an eye out for saboteurs and let them know they are not encouraging you. Your inner circle of friends and family should be there for support, not for deconstructive criticism. There will be milestones in life, hormonal changes, learn about them, embrace them don’t be depressed about it, look forward to 40, 50 60 and beyond. You are only here for a short while, how will you be spending the gift of life that was given to you?

Dan

aka SAVAGE/JDIDAN/Dan the Protein Man You can't choose your parents however you can choose your lifestyle Earn your supplements The most important stack you can do are big plates.- Sweatn

Re: A different kind of fat loss discussion
09-13-04 01:58 PM - Post#34975    

Quote:

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Laree said:
Of all the threads we've seen on weight loss (meaning, hopefully, fat loss), from Extreme Dieting to Help! I want to lose 100 pounds!, we've covered exercise, supplements and diet, but haven't really addressed the underlying issues: What caused the fat gain in the first place? Until that reason is determined -- different in each of us -- no diet can possibly succeed over the long term. Even if a short-term loss is achieved, the weight will be regained, that and more usually.

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Bingo, bingo and double bingo I couldn’t agree with thread more. There is so much talk about losing weight and not enough about what puts it on, or more importantly how and why people let themselves go.

I can understand fully discussing about cutting to get ready for a bodybuilding show or how to drop weight to make your weight class for a lifting com but for gaining muscle and improving health the emphasis should always be on living a better life style and what effects it.

Because;

It takes years to put on real muscle, weeks to loss fat.

Your focus should be on what takes years, not weeks.

Reality Sucks

Re: A different kind of fat loss discussion
09-13-04 02:19 PM - Post#34976    

These are all great points. I've never really struggled with weight much. I was a stick all through college, and only in my late thirties have I witnessed fat appear all over me. Thinking about why I eat bad foods, I really have to add:

1) Because it REALLY tastes good.
2) Because it's easy to find bad food, and I can't cook.

Let me explain #1 a little more. Once on a healthy diet, I agree that junk food stops being as pleasing. Even so, chocolate still taste *awesome* to me. But for the average unfit person, who's is NOT on a good diet, certain foods trigger responses in the body. I think humans are wired to value high-fat foods. In the "wild" high-fat is hard to get. I think a lot of these foods came about because of the response of the average taste bud, which is thumbs-up.

#2 is much easier to explain. Let me publically praise Kym's cooking. If it weren't for her, I'd still be eating macaroni and cheese out of the pot with a wooden spoon. Instead I enjoy awesome and healthy food every day. It's a lot of extra work finding good food. It's almost impossible sometimes. For incompetent cooks like me, it's a chore to eat my cooking. About the only thing I do right is salad. I make great salads, it's my one kitchen duty.

Javier

Re: A different kind of fat loss discussion
09-13-04 03:11 PM - Post#34977    

Another thought to look at.

Javier stated....
"certain foods trigger responses in the body."


Frankly, there is some truth to this . Food can be an addiction. For some, there are nuerobiological factors that interplay with the emotional "need" factor. Research is showing that as with many addictions, there are nuerobiological changes that happen in the Limbic system of the brain. And for some, a line is crossed between psychological/emotional abuse of food and the physical addiction to certain foods caused by the altered nuerochemistry in the brain. So, for those individuals, it is more than a matter of just will power and poor diet. For those who struggle with "trigger" foods, it may be wise to look at the psychological, emotional AND physical factors which may be present. It is kinda like just how ridiculous "just say no" is to substance abuse. An individual needs to have reasons for saying no and and a plan to avoid the substance use.Understanding trigger foods, trigger places or events and even people who support the unhealthy eating should be looked at for each individual. Remember the Lays Potato Chip ad "bet you can't eat just one" for some people one is too many and a thousand is never enough.

Re: A different kind of fat loss discussion
09-13-04 04:59 PM - Post#34978    

B,
I have to agree with you on this one. I have known a few people over the years that have sucessfully shed 100 lbs or more only to gain it all back again. whether it is a form of depression of some other chemical imbalance in their brains, they just didn't feel normal until they were grossly overweight again.

The human body is a beautiful creation, but it is a very complex organism with all kinds of feedback systems developed over millions of years of evolutiion but in many ways, still a work in progress.

walk slow and lift heavy,

John G,

Re: A different kind of fat loss discussion
09-14-04 10:38 AM - Post#34979    

"I'm guessing many of them have been able to muster the will to change because of "something else" - It's THAT thing that I am most interested in. For example what is it in Amazonblonde that made her one day decide to lose 60 pounds and what has helped her keep it off? Did Jan ever dream one day she'd be a personal trainer and "fitchick"? What's behind it all? "

That is a really good question, Lisa and frankly it has had me thinking for a few days now.

I never actually set out to lose weight. I was becoming really sick from my former diet and lifestyle (factors 1-6 were at play). I took my Doc's suggestions to heart and the changes were so immediate and felt so good that I knew that I never wanted to go back.

Along the way after diligently practising my 'new' habits soemthing clicked...it changed from being something I do because I 'have to' to something I do because I AM. For example: I used to watch my carbs or I would 'get fat again' changed to "I eat lower carbs because I AM a fit and healthy person". My home gym morphed from being discreetly tucked in my basement to taking over 600 square feet of my home. I don't keep junk food in my cupboards-- not because I am tempted like I used to be... but because I *hate* what they stand for in our society. (Yes, Javier, it does taste good...now pass the carrot sticks) [;

In short, I became the change I wanted to see in myself.

That's where 'FITCHIK' fits in. That was the name of my company until guys in suits convinced me that it was derogatory at least to a different generation. After the legal change my personalized license plates arrived in the mail.

I let them sit on my desk for a few days wondering if anyone would be offended by them. I put them on and was floored by the response. Everyone wants to see what a FITCHIK looks like, what she does, what she buys in the store. I live in a goldfish bowl now. Sometimes it is a little uncomfortable The plates are staying on though. I'm standing my ground. If this sends a message out to others that fitness is cool then so be it. Go ahead, analyze my groceries as I load my boxes of fresh veggies from Costco in the trunk!

Sorry Laree if this seems a little tangential but... the point is that the plates have become an every day affirmation for me. Manor had some excellent points regarding how you think of and talk to yourself. This is how I stay true to myself.

You have to have your head in the game to win. Period. I think this is the #1 key to living a healthy lifestyle and solving riddles 1-6 for yourself.

There is no mustering of strength when you change your way of thinking about yourself, your world and your goals.
j

P.s. I always thought personal training would be a fun job to do while raising kids. It is. [=

P.P.S I like little mantras...since the plates went on one of my favorites has been that "I" is the difference between being a FATCHIK and a FITCHIK.

Re: A different kind of fat loss discussion
09-14-04 10:55 AM - Post#34980    

FITCHIK has got it together and without knowing it (She probably does) she is also an example for her children to follow. I guess I went a little deep with the internal dialogue stuff, however I felt it to be the starting point that most people neglect because we all seem to try the simpler things first, such as diet and exercise and forget about who we are inside.

When I got my butt in gear over 3 years ago, I used to be on the Stairmaster doing HIIT and thought about “Fat bastard” from the Austin Powers movies, and I would actually say “Come on Fat bastard, don’t stop, keep going, finish it, only 5 minutes to go” etc. I had lousy workouts because I kept calling myself Fat bastard, at first it was a joke and then I started to believe I was because the failures came. I then changed my internal dialogue, I started to call myself the “Lean mean muscle machine” and when I would have poor performance on the Stairmaster, I would tell myself that I will complete it and not “try” anymore, I kept a positive attitude, and I keep a positive attitude, I spin bad workouts into learning opportunities, days that I don’t feel well to days of rest because I pushed myself harder then ever and so the bod says rest. I think it is a good thing when I catch a cold, why? Because they say that athletes since they are at a particular level tend to catch colds easier then non-athletes, the workouts are at such a high level that the immune system takes a beating. This is good, because the immune system will also fight infection more efficiently then non-athletes, in other words they tend to also recover more quickly compared to the non-athlete. So everything is good, even a poor workout. Progress is measured in various ways, overtraining is also progress, because then you have a chance to evaluate and learn from this.

A fit mind a fit body? Get your head on right and everything else will make sense.

Dan (Lean Mean Muscle Machine)

aka SAVAGE/JDIDAN/Dan the Protein Man You can't choose your parents however you can choose your lifestyle Earn your supplements The most important stack you can do are big plates.- Sweatn

Re: A different kind of fat loss discussion
09-14-04 11:04 AM - Post#34981    

To further broaden and confuse this thread, I would like to add, an interesting paradox.

The more muscle you have the easier it is to loose body fat.

In other words, if you only focus on losing body fat you will have a harder and harder time losing body fat.

And if you focus on building muscle and increasing the intensity of your workouts, you might just find yourself not having the ability to eat enough.

A good example of this is some of my friends who are seriously into doing triathlons. For them just to do the type of conditioning that is required to train for a triathlon you should see what they eat. Talk about having the problem of putting 7,000+ calories per day into your mouth. Pizza, ice cream, beer, pasta, cheeseburgers, etc… and that’s just for breakfast!

Reality Sucks

Re: A different kind of fat loss discussion
09-14-04 11:10 AM - Post#34982    

I’m with you on that Bubo, which is another point, most men have little problem when they are told you will gain muscle and lose fat because muscle requires more calories to maintain etc. However, tell that to most women and they freak out, muscles! I don’t want to look like a man! It’s even worse when you are already a muscular male and they say, “I don’t want to look like you” This is where patience and education comes in. I have never seen a “natural” woman having more muscle mass than a “natural” male or even come close. They may be out there, but like I said I have never seen one.

Dan

aka SAVAGE/JDIDAN/Dan the Protein Man You can't choose your parents however you can choose your lifestyle Earn your supplements The most important stack you can do are big plates.- Sweatn

Re: A different kind of fat loss discussion
09-14-04 11:28 AM - Post#34983    

Quote:

---

Manor said:I have never seen a “natural” woman having more muscle mass than a “natural” male or even come close. They may be out there, but like I said I have never seen one.

---

Oh man did you hit the nail on the head with that one.

The only way that I finally convinced my Commander in Chief that she will not get all bulky is luckily there are some excellent women athletes that go to the gym and do use some serious weight. And guess what, surprise, surprise they are not bulky.

Oh PS: I have seen some naturally big muscular women. But they were big even without lifting weights. A couple of them were from Jamaica and the biggest one was from the Blackfoot nation from Wyoming. Whoohaaa…

Reality Sucks

Re: A different kind of fat loss discussion
09-14-04 01:20 PM - Post#34984    

Warning -going off on a pseudo-tangent.

Something that I've always found astounding is people's ability to STOP maintaining an active lifestyle -often before they even start.

So many excuses pop up: "I don't look good enough to go to a gym -I'll feel embarrassed." "I have kids -I don't have the time." "This eating right and working out stuff isn't working." "I work too much -I don't have the time." "Going to the gym will throw my dharma and my karma out of balance."

That's the funny thing about complacency -people will actually expend effort to try to not expend any effort.

I struggled with all of the above reasons that one is overweight. But the funny thing is, is that I worked pretty hard for a long time to stay where I was. I always SAID I gave it my best and I tried hard, but the bottom line was that trying to be a healthier person required effort and didn't come with guaranteed immediate results.

Fat loss (in my mind) always comes via a catalyst -something to ignite the proverbial explosion. For most people it's either being sick -TRULY sick -of the person they see in the mirror, or bad and scary news from a medical professional.

Just as Jill said -results are the best motivator. But the question is will enough results show up before the fear/disgust/dissatisfaction wears off? It took years and many tries for that to happen to me. But until that happened, I came up with some GREAT excuses, man . . . .

OK -tangent over.

God's strength and blessings. Jason

Re: A different kind of fat loss discussion
09-14-04 01:54 PM - Post#34985    

I try to postpone procrastinating as long as possible.

Reality Sucks

Re: A different kind of fat loss discussion
09-14-04 02:15 PM - Post#34986    

Well for me it all began many times and worked many times in the past but to always come back to the weight I had been before I started or even more!!!!Then one day I got sick(stomach bug) and was away on a business trip which made it even worse....lost ike 12 pounds in a week....with just that twelve pounds I knew I felt better and wanted to keep going......yes...soon after I went thru a divorce...which helped push me even more....But something about this time was different...maybe it was the independance in my life that finally made me take control of myself...and be responsible for my own actions...who knows but I know that that was 8 1/2 years ago...I have never strayed again!!!!!...Yes it is a constant battle....but I will NEVER be the Lori of old EVER again....that is a promise I made to myself and don't plan on breaking it!!!!!

AB

Obsessed is a word the lazy use to describe the dedicated!!!

Re: A different kind of fat loss discussion
09-14-04 02:22 PM - Post#34987    

Wow!, what an interesting thread...

Unfortunatly, I'm a high stress prone type person. I seem to have got it from both sides of the family. Maybe that explains why the last remnants of my belly roll just doesn't seem to go away,no matter how much jogging I try to do.

High stress/anxiety levels seem to bring out a craving in me for fast carbs like breads,pasta,potatoes,etc. I analyzed my carb/protein/fat percentage intakes not too long ago and I was shocked that my carb intake was 57%! with protien at a mere 17.8%! It's time to make some mods here!

Speaking of hormonal based problems, I heard an M.D. make a comment once that it was easier to get gold out of Ft. Knox than it is to loose weight if one's blood sugar levels are constantly spiking and crashing!

Re: A different kind of fat loss discussion
09-14-04 03:09 PM - Post#34988    

Not only insulin, Mark, but other hormones have this same effect. For instance, testosterone not only helps us build muscle, but it can also hold fat.

Let me use myself as an example. Remember a few months ago when I couldn't lose weight on 800ish calories a day? As much as I trusted Jerry and others vis a vie slowed metabolism, I really couldn't buy into it 100%. I begged for help from our knowledgeable doc friend (Mike Nichols, M.D., from http://www.tempusclinic.com/ ), who ordered a hormone blood panel and found a few things gone haywire. One was too much testosterone at 192 (men will laugh at this amount, which would just about put them in the grave, I think, but average for women is 15-70.

You'd think I'd be a muscle mamma, wouldn't you? Nope, in me the response I get is to hold bodyfat. Mike had me drop DHEA and drop my hormone replacement in half (reminder if needed: I have no ovaries due to surgery and take replacement hormones, shooting for optimum levels, not excessive levels). I've just done new blood tests to see what happened; don't have the results back, but I can tell you I'm weighing 130 right now, down from 134.5 when I started the extreme diet and 132.5 when it ended. This is with a completely normal, balance menu and my traditional exercise routine.

I'm also convinced seratonin levels have a heavy impact on cortisol, both of which further complicate weight control issues.

I did want to address hormones fully in this thread because I find myself proving that if they aren't aligned properly, weight control will be next to impossible. But I also want beginning dieters to address the other points on the list first, or perfectly balance hormones still won't work for them. And... the other points are easier to identify and control in my opinion.

Re: A different kind of fat loss discussion
09-14-04 05:32 PM - Post#34989    

Quote:

---

Laree said:
I begged for help from our knowledgeable doc friend (Mike Nichols, M.D., from http://www.tempusclinic.com/ )

---

That looked very interesting....until I saw the price tag of $7000 (gulp). :)

Maybe I can get Oprah to purchase the program for me.

Ron

Re: A different kind of fat loss discussion
09-15-04 09:29 AM - Post#34990    

Quote:

---

ll-j-ll said:
I like little mantras...since the plates went on one of my favorites has been that "I" is the difference between being a FATCHIK and a FITCHIK.

---

This is one of those triggering thoughts that makes you think more deeply.
Thanks for sharing that Jan. :-)

Re: A different kind of fat loss discussion
09-15-04 09:30 AM - Post#34991    

Quote:

---

Lisa said:
I'm guessing many of them have been able to muster the will to change because of "something else" - What's behind it all?

---

I tried to think of what my "something else" might have been. I know when the slap on the forehead or the kick in the pants took place, I know what was going on in my life at the time (lot of unhealthiness - both physical and mental), yet I can't say even today what that it might have been. But what it brought about was the motivation to get control of one tiny facet of my life, which at that time was to get through ten lessons in weight lifting with a trainer. That wasn't much of a goal, but it was a start for me. I discovered this was a lot of fun, and contrary to my expectations, I found I was pretty good at it. Diet changes came a little later. As I observed my body change and my strength improve, the messages in my head about never being this or always being that changed, too. So it all goes together, the mind and the muscle, at least for me.

Fortunately, I've never had those critical words spoken to me about getting huge or whatever. I think it's because in terms of physical strength, no one expects much of me. Maybe it's a combination of being short, female, and Asian. What comments people have made to me inside & outside of the gym have been a combination of surprise & compliment. Like last week, I was sitting in a plane with all the overheads loaded. A fairly big guy sat down next to me with this huge overstuffed briefcase and asked if we could re-arrange the stuff by our feet so his bag would fit. I just reached down and picked up his bag, he said, "no, be careful, it's heavy." Well, I tried to first put it right in front of me, that didn't work, so I pulled it out, moved some of my stuff around, and finally got his bag shoved in. At the end of the flight, he told me he was impressed that I was able to pick up his bag - hardly anyone could. So it's little stuff like that that makes me kind of chuckle inside.... which is what you can do when your head and your body are going strong.

"You will not be carrying around a scale to jump on and show people." - Vicki Masterson "The following time you better do more or you are dirt!" - Vicki again

Re: A different kind of fat loss discussion
09-15-04 11:10 AM - Post#34992    

As a general rule, addicts need a pivot point -- a specific instant that in the future they'll always remember as the defining reason for breaking an impossible habit. Dieters don't need a pivot point to succeed, but if they have one, long-term success is far more likely.

So, maybe we can consider ourselves lucky when someone yells something derogatory from a passing bus, or a relative's comment cuts to the bone.

Re: A different kind of fat loss discussion
09-15-04 11:14 AM - Post#34993    

Quote:

---

Laree said:
So, maybe we can consider ourselves lucky when someone yells something derogatory from a passing bus, or a relative's comment cuts to the bone.

---

Ah, yes. Well, it is the Simon Cowells of the world that often provoke the greatest change for improvement in others. :)

Ron

Re: A different kind of fat loss discussion
09-15-04 11:25 AM - Post#34994    

My pivot point was not a lightening flash but an awarness. I realized I was out of shape and slugish and only 48 and that it was my choice how I would live the rest of my life. I could continue the way I was and slowly feel worse and be able to do less OR I could change the way I lived. I chose life. It is a struggle at times but I am constantly aware that I can always change again and the choice still looks better to do the best I can for health.

I am with Teresa in the "kick" out of showing unsespecting others my strength.

01-20-08 02:04 AM - Post#398841    

I guess I can chime in on the hormone aspect too - with a tendency towards stressing thrown in for good measure. I know I dpn't lack for discipline; but when I started working out and eating right in earnest, I knew my body would push back. After having experimented with quite a few different supplements, I've found a few that help keep a wonky thyroid fairly steady, and some that seem to help the usual 'male menopause' symptoms. Still waiting for that well-defined 6 pack, but I'll spend the rest of my days working out hoping to make it appear. The alternative (doing nothing) just doesn't compute.

Everybody wants to look ripped, but not many want to lift that heavy weight..

Re: A different kind of fat loss discussion
04-08-08 03:57 PM - Post#429729    

• Laree Said:

I guess into this category belongs also depression when you just don't care and let yourself go. Lack of interest, lack of energy, eating too much or too little.
Often exercise is recommended for depressed people but it can be a steep (if not impossible) hill to climb at those dark times when nothing at all matters. You loose your soul and gain fat, not a good exchange.

Great topic, Laree, fat loss.

pixie

Aut viam inveniam aut faciam.

Re: A different kind of fat loss discussion
07-14-08 03:55 PM - Post#462499    

• pink.pixie Said:

Pink Pixie, you have some great posts. I visit quite a few bodybuilding websites and know great posts when I see one.

08-09-08 12:27 PM - Post#471113    

You don't lose your soul, you lose direction and you lose control. If I was an excuse making man, I could blame my large weight gain of 2007 on the depression triggered by my marital problems and the medications prescribed to smooth my mood out. I switched the psychiatrist around the time I became conscious of the large change in my weight. I ate comfort foods for comfort(imagine that) when I should have hit the gym harder instead. When I became aware of my gain, I posted a cleansing message here and was encouraged by several friends here. I will never 'arrive' but I'm on the trail again

As you get older it is harder to have heroes, but it is sort of necessary. Ernest Hemingway

08-22-08 06:01 PM - Post#475572    

Sometimes people seem to hit rock bottom,when you're alone and in the dark,the brightest light just happens to be the one that comes on when you open the fridge door. It's sad but true.
Sometimes people need a reality check, a passing glimpse in the mirror, realising that you're breathless at the top of a flight of stairs would be enough for them to say enough is enough.
For others they might need to be shocked into action,near miss with the old ticker or whatever.
The bottom line I'm shooting at is an individual will need to decide when they want to lose weight and sometimes ego/pride/embarassment holds them back.
Thinking a gym is filled with beautiful fit people sniggering at the noobie on the treadmill?
Not so. Most people that use a gym are all there for the same reson as you, to improve their well being and feel good about themselves. Looking good in the process is a bonus.
It comes down to having the courage to step in and go at it. Small steps on the road to fitness.
My personal kick in the backside came whan my son asked me when I was going to stop smoking, that he'd seen a video in school saying that people died from smoking related illness and he didn't want me to die. I smoked my last cigarette that day.That was 18 months ago and I've goten my ass to the gym to try undo what 20years of smoking has done to my cardiovascular system.

Sorry about the length of the post

"For sure, grit and spit will get you so far but it will also grind you down and leave you spent. Good movement, superior movement, that is where grace and power live." My 2011 Training Log

08-22-08 06:22 PM - Post#475580    

Nice post Jim.

Great job on quiting smoking!

04-23-09 08:18 AM - Post#546003    

I'll begin where I am right now first. May (It's now April) marks the one-year mark to when I knew instantly I had to lose at least 20 pounds and hopefully a bit more.

I was at my cardiologist's office last May. They weighed me. I'm 5' 2" but, at 65, have shrunk a bit. Sad to say. But say it I must to be honest. I weighed 160. I was floored. I knew I'd gained weight. I had no idea I'd gained that much. While I didn't look it, I was obese. And I pride myself on my health and being in good shape!

That day, I knew I had to turn it around. The doctor didn't have to tell me to. Nor did he. But I'd be damned if I'd live with that.

But the question here was what caused the weight gain. In my case, I didn't necessarily overeat. As I've gotten older, I have less appetite. But, I had chips with my lunch. I ate that sort of thing. I bought my groceries in the center isles of the grocery store, the canned goods, the boxed foods, with all the hidden "crap" in it.

On my way home from the doctor's office last May, I stopped at a big grocery store and bought a book on men's fitness. (Men know how to put quick meals together) and learned how to eat and fix fast but healthy meals. I ate all organic and natural. No more middle isles except for toilet tissue and cat and dog food!

I used less salt and switched to sea salt. I used protein powder in most everything I fixed. I kept a log of all I ate for six months. I kept it in my Palm Pilot so it was accurate. I stayed within about 1300 calories per day. I got back into a regular schedule of weight lifting. I was suffering from a shoulder injury and had to heal that before I could do anything. That, in part, helped me pack on the weight as I couldn't work out.

I lost slowly. About a pound a week. Sometimes none at all. If I hit a plateau I ate more. You have to shake up the metabolism, as I'm sure you already know.

Well, the bottom line is that I'm now at a normal weight and body fat for my age and sex. I want to get rid of more but it's not a danger now like it was then. I could, for example, get into the Army or Navy at my current weight and body fat. (Not that they'd want me nor I'd want them!)

I call what I had weight creep. It crept up a bit every day and month until I was pure fat. It's best, in my opinion and in my case, to weigh at least every week. Daily fluctuates too much. But it's so easy to pack the fat on. It's NOT so easy to unpack it.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Quoting: For me life is continuously being hungry. The meaning of life is not simply to exist, to survive, but to move ahead, to go up, to achieve, to conquer. Arnold Schwarzenegger

04-23-09 08:55 AM - Post#546013    

Well done, Susanna.

Wicked

"I'm in good shape for the shape I'm in." "Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me." John 14:6

04-23-09 08:58 AM - Post#546014    

Susanna, your description of how you got to the point of being out of shape is all too common. Your ability to recognize what needed to be done and taking personal responsibility and corrective action is all too uncommon. Congratulation on taking control of that aspect of your life. That's what true strength is all about.

"Mind over matter. Control of your own destiny. Mastery of one's own body is an empowering achievement." - me

04-23-09 10:50 AM - Post#546059    

Yep. Sounds right by me, too. That's how it works, sneaks up on us, but doesn't go away easily. Sticking to the diet for a year is what it takes pretty often, yet most of us only have about three weeks in us.

Good work, Susanna!