All about Cholesterol: LDL, HDL, testing, lowering and more -
davedraper.com home Home
This forum is closed as of March 2023.

Quick Links: Main Index | Flight Deck | Training Logs | Dan John Deck | Must Reads | Archive

 Page 1 of 14 1234>» Last
Display Name Post: All about Cholesterol: LDL, HDL, testing, lowering and more        (Topic#1497)
Teresa
*
Total Posts: 4427
09-04-04 04:09 PM - Post#33323    



I've gotten to the point where I can feel in my body when my diet's been a little out of whack, like when I've consumed too much sodium or sugar or carbs. Is anyone aware if there any way of sensing when one's cholesterol level is climbing up or is there a way of stabilizing it? I'm not happy with my total cholesterol levels, they've been up and down the past few years I've had it checked (like 275 to 250 to 200 back to 250 or so). I don't want to medicate, and I don't believe that dietary cholesterol is necessarily the culprit. TIA.
"You will not be carrying around a scale to jump on and show people." - Vicki Masterson "The following time you better do more or you are dirt!" - Vicki again


 
cajinjohn
*
Total Posts: 12495
Re: Cholesterol
09-04-04 06:28 PM - Post#33324    



Look into Niacin. also up your intake of vit. C. Are you getting enough B complex. Next question did your parents have this problem ?
It don't matter


 
pointcove
*
Total Posts: 1136
Re: Cholesterol
09-04-04 10:12 PM - Post#33325    



Quote:

Teresa said:
I've gotten to the point where I can feel in my body when my diet's been a little out of whack, like when I've consumed too much sodium or sugar or carbs. Is anyone aware if there any way of sensing when one's cholesterol level is climbing up or is there a way of stabilizing it? I'm not happy with my total cholesterol levels, they've been up and down the past few years I've had it checked (like 275 to 250 to 200 back to 250 or so). I don't want to medicate, and I don't believe that dietary cholesterol is necessarily the culprit. TIA.




Why in the world do you not want to take a couple of pills a day that can lower your cholesterol? I bet you take a zillion vitamins and so on a day, yet, you can't take cholesterol lowering agents? These new agents are miracle drugs. Have your cholesterol levels taken again, find out your total cholesterol, HDL, LDL, VLDL and triglycerides. The proper drug can then be determined if your diet does not help. Teresa, come on, this is serious and a no brainer. Now this does not mean that you cannot have a heart attack with normal cholesterol, but it is a definite risk factor.
John...Pointcove


 
Farmer Don
*
Total Posts: 48
Re: Cholesterol
09-05-04 08:35 AM - Post#33326    



If your body weight is normal, and getting extra Niacin and vitamins,you are eating fiber like oatmeal and avoiding high glycemic foods,doing cardio and lifting to increase muscle mass for increased metabolism,eating the good fats (olive oil, flax oil, etc;) , then that is all you can do. If that does not do it then what are your remaining choices? Do what needs to be done. Get to your Doc.

BTW? What is the recommended dosage for Niacin? Bottles of 100,250,500 mg tabs all say take one a day. Can someone advise?
 
Vince K
*
Total Posts: 30
Re: Cholesterol
09-05-04 11:41 AM - Post#33327    



John,

As your bio has stated that you have extensive experience with this subject, please explain how measuring the C-reactive protein can help to prevent heart attacks caused by chlamydia, monitoring elevated levels of homocysteine in the blood, and other wellness activities that should be explored instead of placing all the emphasis on cholesterol.

Regards
Vince
 
Teresa
*
Total Posts: 4427
Re: Cholesterol
09-05-04 12:06 PM - Post#33328    



Quote:

cajinjohn said:
Look into Niacin. also up your intake of vit. C. Are you getting enough B complex. Next question did your parents have this problem ?




Cajin, high cholesterol runs in my family, although there is no history of CV disease (seems we tend to die of cancer). Father's was in the 300s, both my mother & sister have even higher overall cholesterol than I do (don't know the breakdown between LDL & HDL). Their diets contain virtually no dietary cholesterol, so I have a hard time with the supposed diet/serum cholesterol link. All my life I have been the "fattest" and most sedentary person in my family. I take a multivitamin plus an extra 500mg C daily.
"You will not be carrying around a scale to jump on and show people." - Vicki Masterson "The following time you better do more or you are dirt!" - Vicki again


 
DanMartin
*
Total Posts: 20705
Re: Cholesterol
09-05-04 12:22 PM - Post#33329    



Statin drugs are bad juju. They treat the symptom, not the cause.

A good multi, some extra E & C plus a lot of fiber and fish oils along with no-flush niacin should be tried before a Statin.
 
Dr. Tim Shackel
*
Total Posts: 22
Re: Cholesterol
09-05-04 12:37 PM - Post#33330    



Quote:

Teresa said:
I've gotten to the point where I can feel in my body when my diet's been a little out of whack, like when I've consumed too much sodium or sugar or carbs. Is anyone aware if there any way of sensing when one's cholesterol level is climbing up or is there a way of stabilizing it? I'm not happy with my total cholesterol levels, they've been up and down the past few years I've had it checked (like 275 to 250 to 200 back to 250 or so). I don't want to medicate, and I don't believe that dietary cholesterol is necessarily the culprit. TIA.




Hi. I would question if you can actually sense when sodium levels have gone up. Keep in mind just trying to feel some of those things entails stress. Stress is the number one ager, and a big risk factor in heart disease specifically. I'm not saying it's wrong to worry about your cholesterol levels if they're completely out of whack, but to try and sense when you had too much sodium or carbs regularly in everyday life is a big stressor when your focus should be on other things that you enjoy or are interested in.

Now, you gave us your total blood cholesterol level. The important thing is the ratio of HDL to LDL however. You may want to give those numbers. There are many factors which effect blood LDL levels. The top factors that influence high levels of low-density lipoproteins are excessive intake of saturated fats, escessive intake of trans fats (critical in importance), high blood pressure, high blood sugar may play a role by cross-linking with proteins and sometimes joining an LDL molecule, and lastly acidity of the fluids outside the arteries.

The most important dietary factors "directly" related to high cholesterol are too many satruated fats, and in particular trans fats. Trans fats are those lethal hydrogenated or partially hydrogenated soybeans oils I've been talking about in many posts here. These oils are saturated with hydrogen to make them solid at room temperature. The use for them in baking is because it's solid at room temperature and well stored and preserved first of all, and secondly because it's easier to mix it into flour than buter, according to many bakers. However, trans fats are not just solid at room temperature, but also at body temperature because it's melting point is higher than 98.6 degrees farenheit! And did you know, that trans fats are one molecule short of being a plastic? How many of you would enjoy eating plastic for a snack? Eliminating trans fats entirely from your diet can be one of the most important steps you can take for cardiovascular health. Do you think this is just my opinion and no one elses? Well, guess what, by the year 2006 ALL nutritional labels will be forced to put the amount of trans fat in grams in their product right underneath satruated fats and unsaturated fats. Many snack brands already do this, probably because they're proud they found other alternatives to flavor the product. In numerous studies trans fats are key to the heart problems of many generations of people.

What foods contain trans fats? First of all, margarine and vegetable shortening, is almost purely trans fats. It's unebelievable the FDA allowed margarine's and shortening's introduction to grocery circulation at Crisco's genesis in the early 1900's. Any chemist knows it's lethal. People mistakingly believe they're doing someting for their health by consuming margarine instead of butter. That is simply not the case. I wholeheartedly recommend butter and healthy olive or canola oils as alternatives. Many snack foods which don't have Trans fats - 0 grams on their label yet, likely have them, most popcorns are full of them, all baked goods have a prime ingredient as shortening in many cases, etc. etc. The list goes on. For instance most fast foods have historically been fried in tras fats because they "taste better" than other oils according to McDonald's for instance. This is why it is so impertive to make your own meals and not cosune fast food. I just read that President Clinton requires a bypass surgery after a diet rich in fast food and sweets! Big surprise? Not really.

So I just addressed the fat issue (particularly trans fat) of one's diet in its relation to blood cholesterol levels. Cholesterol hardly impacts the blood cholesterol much at all. The low-density lipoproteins are circulated in the blood stream for a couple reasons. First of all if you had trans fats, it likely hasn't broken down from digestion, and is still solid at your body temperature, and it runs through your veins with the sole aim to plug them up, and secondly, LDL's circulates your veins because the liver told it to go to seal the beginning stresses and lesions in the arteries from high blood pressure and the acidity of the fluids surrounding the arteries which eat at the muscle tissoe of arteries. These are the indirect factors related to LDL levels. Most people don't understand that the body puts cholesterol in the blood stream on purpose many times due to these indirect factors even if you consumed 0 grams of trans fats per day.

So aside from limiting saturated fats, and consuming 0 grams of trans fats per day, one must consum ample stores of vitamins and minerals to catalyze the body's natural defense mechanisms and to alkalize the lymph fluids between and surrounding cells which become acidic after too much protein and not enough minerals like calcium and magnesium. Ask any nutritionist, bio-chemist like myself, or dietician, whether calcium and magnesium greatly influences cardiovascular disease, and you'll get a "Huge influence!" response every time! Calcium in particular influences all nerve action and muscle action (including the heart's). Also calcium secures and improves bone structure. Minerals in bones are critically important to protect the marrow which produces red blood cells that carry oxygen to all your cells. The mineral calcium is also required to be a substrate of DNA. In laymen's terms this means that in order for your hundred trillion cells to replicate, and all the complex DEA and RNA biology which makes new proteins designed with a specific genetic code to work, the DNA must be in a "cloud" of calcium ions. Calcium, dousing acididty in lymph fluids allowing oxygen back in there in order to get to the capillaries and into the cell, donating electons to eliminate free radicals, and providing a substrate for DNA to replicate (aside from controlling all nerve and muscle function, and aside from its ability to cross-link with proteins by binding on to 7 oxygen locations on a protein), make calcium the most important element in the human body by far! It is crucial in heart disease and in many other diseases to consume this element in enough quantity in a form that's highly absorbable. And of course Mangesium is critically important as well, it does a few things calcium can't due because of size differences and because the electrons are more tightly bound to magnesium, however calcium is the most skilled and important bio-element of any in existence.

I hope this little technical lecture helps you to decide to intake a lot of minerals in good forms to protect you from heart disease, cancer, lupus, MS, Alzheimer's etc. etc. The best forms of minerals are glycinates, picolinates (zinc and chromium are best in picolinate form), aspartates, or citrates, malates etc. Coral calcium may be a useful pre-ionized addition to your supplement cabinet because it contains calcium and magnesium. However the best forms of calcium are calcium citrate/malate currently, and the best form of magnesium is magnesium glycinate. As mentioned Niacin is also an important B-vitamin to help in heart disease. 50-100 mg's is the general concensus. Perhaps bodybuilders need more B-vitamins than normal people though because they control the body's energy production in cells. Vitamin C, E, and A are the most crucial vitamins for heart health however. You can intake grams worth of vitamin C often times without consequence.

Lastly, eliminating sweets from your diet, and very sugary fruits will definitely help control blood sugar which is another risk factor for heart disease and in particular diabetes. However keep in mind the more protein and fats you consume (a la Atkins), the more vegetables, and particular fruits you need to balance and pH. Mineral supplements help greatly in this regard too. Hope this helps.

Tim
 
Ms. KO
*
Total Posts: 1856
Re: Cholesterol
09-05-04 01:55 PM - Post#33331    



Have a test done. What could be simpler? Then figure out what to do.

Exercise does wonders for cholesterol levels. I had tests done recently and my cholesterol levels were lower than when I was 26 years old and a vegan vegetarian. Go figure. Now I eat a lot of steak, dairy, *cream*, etc. - without the carbs, mind you, which makes a difference. It's gotta be the exercise. A few years ago, my levels were getting rather high. Now they're lower than they've ever been since I can remember. Gotta be the iron way of life. The cholesterol levels in my family do run a bit high, also, so for now it seems I've dodged the bullet. Next to my cholesterol levels on the form from my last physical, the doctor wrote, "Excellent". Never thought I'd see that. I once heard that once you start with statins, you have to stay on them because as soon as you quit, the levels go back up. Don't know if that is true.



 
cajinjohn
*
Total Posts: 12495
Re: Cholesterol
09-05-04 03:55 PM - Post#33332    



Dr. Tim Thanks for hitting the trans fat issue. I forgot that one. I had a good doc. years ago who got me into high Vit.C and B-complex and mineral thing. I have been taking 2 grams of vit- C for some time. 50 to 100 mg. of niacin ( B-3 ). Suger in any form is the great killer. They say high doses of niacin are bad for your liver. Had a blood workup done recently and all is well. I believe this is another urbin myth, junk science. You can get the non flush niacin, but I like to feel it because I get the feeling it's working. Something is working because I have a good cholesterol level, low blood pressure and a low resting heart rate. I also believe the Satan drugs are a killer, and I believe that a huge scandle will come out soon on those.
It don't matter


 
ccrow
*
Total Posts: 10055
Signature: The most important test a lifter has to pass
is the test of time.
-Jon Cole

Show User Page
(Blog, Gallery, Shoutbox & Buddies etc...): No

Last Login IP: 172.70.134.229
Last Online: 03-14-23
User ID: 18
Login Name: ccrow
Primary Training Purpose: Health
Real Email Address: ccrowsmail@yahoo.com
Primary Training Style: Volume
old hand
Bio: No Bio
Re: Cholesterol
09-05-04 04:26 PM - Post#33333    



KO, regarding that last point, in my admittedly limited personal experience, I know a zillion people who have been started on statins, but I have never known anyone to be taken off of them. This includes many people who have altered their body comp, diets, exercise, etc. after starting the statins, and whose cholesterol levels may be fine off drugs. Again in my opinion I feel that doctors prescribe these at the drop of a hat with no "exit strategy" as if the drugs were basically magic beans and had no side effects.

Just one very typical example: 35 years old, low bodyfat, very active, excellent endurance athlete, scores 227 total cholesterol. (The average is 200). The doctor prescribed a statin drug. Her diet was atrocious, and her HDL / LDL and other blood tests were not done, she has no family history of CVD (the number one risk factor), yet if she doesn't press for an alternative, I think she will be on these for the rest of her life.

High cholesterol is not the strongest statistical risk factor for heart disease, and I am convinced that the current fixation on LDL and to a lesser extent HDL is the best medical science can do. If a person's immediate risk is low, wouldn't it make more sense to clean up the diet and exercise program, test again; if necessary, add niacin in an appropriate dosage (I have seen up to 2g per day, but I think results have been demonstrated on lower dosages), and test again; and if the risk remains, resort to statin drugs?

Niacin is dirt cheap, has almost no side effects, and is proven effective in both lowering LDL and raising HDL. (Statins often leave HDL unchanged or lower.) I am encouraged that I know at least a couple doctors who are putting some people on niacin first going to statin drugs but discouraged that they are so much in the minority, and even considered nutty for doing so. Niacin can't be patented; nobody can make a killing on marketing niacin (although I have heard that there is some farcical expensive "medical niacin" in pharmacies now). The statin drugs have a legion of very professional, extremely effective sales people encouraging and enticing the medical community to prescribe their drugs. I hate to be cynical but the science does not support the way that statins are being used -- it's more business than science.
The most important test a lifter has to pass
is the test of time.
-Jon Cole


 
Teresa
*
Total Posts: 4427
Re: Cholesterol
09-05-04 05:24 PM - Post#33334    



Thanks to all for the valuable input. As for specific numbers, here's the very limited data I have on hand right now. I wrote down the most recent #s from 2 months ago, but can't find them. I'll have to call the dr's office this week.

2003: Total = 201, LDL = 133, HDL = 56
2002: Total = 236, LDL = 149

As for trans fats, I rarely consume them. What baked goods I consume I pretty much bake myself from scratch so I know what goes in them (like in a loaf of whole grain bread, I'll put in 2 Tbsp of butter as the only source of fat - and of that I'll have at most 1/3 - 1/2 a slice in the morning). Protein sources consist mainly of chicken breast, tuna, salmon, very lean beef, very lean pork, and whole eggs. Limited dairy - if I consume 20 oz of yogurt in a week, that's a lot for me. Some soy milk daily with whole grain cereal (no trans fat in the cereal).

What is frustrating is that the numbers have generally been improving for the past few years, especially after I started exercising regularly. Last year's numbers were especially encouraging. This year, the total cholesterol level is up, and so at least is the HDL. I guess this wild (to me) fluctuation is what got me started thinking about all this.
"You will not be carrying around a scale to jump on and show people." - Vicki Masterson "The following time you better do more or you are dirt!" - Vicki again


 
pointcove
*
Total Posts: 1136
Re: Cholesterol
09-05-04 07:47 PM - Post#33335    



Vince, I do not deal primarily with this subject as I'm more into the surgical aspects, specifically cardiovascular bypass maintenance of the patient while the heart and lungs are not working, but elevated cholesterol is a basic subject we all study. So here goes my attempt to answer your questions.

There are a number of factors that cause coronary artery disease (CAD). Family history, age, sex, lipid abnormalities, diabetes and hypertension to name the major ones. C-reactive protein (CRP) is a marker of inflammation that is clearly associated with CAD. The trick is that elevated levels may be caused by one of the above named risk factors. There is no doubt that it is an independent factor from blood lipid abnormalities, but it may be caused by the same thing that causes the CAD to begin with. In patients with an acute coronary syndrome, an elevated CRP would identify the patient as being at high risk for another cardiac event. A number of infective agents, including Chlamydia, cytomegalovirus and H. pylori have been indirectly linked to increased CRP levels, but no study has proved that treating the infection with antibiotics would lessen the possibility of CAD.

Homocysteine levels do tend to be higher in those with CAD. Interestingly enough a deficiency of folate, vit B6, B12 can lead to this.

However, both these factors are nebulous while there is firm evidence that abnormal lipid metabolism causes CAD. The risk goes higher with higher levels of LDL and is lowered with increased HDL. The ratio of LDL to HDL provides risk quantification. Ratios below 3 indicate lower risk, while those about 5 indicate higher risk.

In Teresa’s case we need to know the triglyceride level to really do the calculations. But I’ll tell you right now that LDL of 133 is too high and HDL below 60 is not good either. A standard approach is to attempt to lower the LDL below 100. So summing up, Teresa should go have the tests and do what the doctor says, including using drugs that work. It is really no big deal if your liver is healthy.
John...Pointcove


 
Sharon
*
Total Posts: 898
Re: Cholesterol
09-05-04 09:41 PM - Post#33336    



The article below does not completely negate the benefits of statin drugs but warns that CoenzymeQ10 must be taken with a stain drug for maximum benefits. Just thought I would throw this out for another perspective on the issue. Feel free to disagree, I just wanted to help Teresa because she is always so helpful to others.


Cardiologists Overlook Lifesaving Discovery


Impressive research published in 2003 indicates that coenzyme Q10 may have broader clinical applications than originally identified. These new human studies further validate the efficacy of coenzyme Q10 in the adjuvant treatment of cardiovascular disease.1-9

In particular, a study of heart attack patients showed that compared to placebo, supplementation with 120 mg a day of coenzyme Q10 reduced secondary cardiac events by 45% and significantly reduced the number of cardiac deaths. Many of these heart-attack patients were prescribed a “statin” drug to lower cholesterol levels. The major adverse effect of statin treatment was fatigue that occurred in 40.8% of the placebo group, whereas only 6.8% of the patients supplemented with coenzyme Q10 experienced fatigue.2

The Problem With “Statin” Drugs
Massive advertising by drug companies has resulted in millions of Americans taking statin drugs every day. Because consumers are supposed to take these drugs possibly for the rest of their lives, statins have become the most profitable drug class in the world. While statin drugs do lower cholesterol, there is a controversy as to how effective these drugs are in extending overall life span.

Peter H. Langsjoen, MD, is the foremost authority on the use of coenzyme Q10 in the treatment of heart disease. His numerous research studies can be found in the world’s most prestigious scientific journals.24-32


Julian Whitaker, MD
In 1990, the Proceedings of the National Academy of Science published Dr. Langsjoen’s studies on the safety of statin drugs. Dr. Langsjoen explained that the mechanism by which statin drugs lower cholesterol also inhibits the natural biosynthesis of coenzyme Q10 in the liver. Dr. Langsjoen said that he conducted these studies because, “if lovastatin were to reduce levels of coenzyme Q10, this reduction would constitute a new risk of cardiac disease, since it is established that coenzyme Q10 is indispensable for cardiac function.” Dr. Langsjoen then reported that his animal and human studies showed that lovastatin does indeed lower levels of coenzyme Q10.30 Dr. Langsjoen went on to describe case histories of his lovastatin patients who suffered from progressive cardiac degeneration, but whose heart function improved after oral administration of coenzyme Q10.

Move forward to July 8, 2002, and we find that Dr. Langsjoen has become a vocal critic of statin drugs and has published a new paper titled “Statin-Induced Cardiomyopathy.” In an excerpt from this paper, Dr. Langsjoen describes his 17-year experience with statin drugs as follows:

“I have seen a frightening increase in heart failure secondary to statin usage, ‘statin cardiomyopathy.’ Over the past five years, statins have become more potent, are being prescribed in higher doses, and are being used with reckless abandon in the elderly and in patients with ‘normal’ cholesterol levels.”33

Dr. Langsjoen attributes these heart failure cases as being caused by “statin-induced coenzyme Q10 depletion” that is preventable if statin drug users supplemented with coenzyme Q10.
___________________________________________________________

The impact upon CoQ10 levels when taking statin drugs can be significant. For example, patients taking CoQ10, who later started lovastatin, lowered their CoQ10 levels by 44-75%. The problems associated with drug-related suppression of CoQ10 escalate when age-associated decline in serum CoQ10 levels are also present. A CoQ10 deficiency of 25% is linked with illness in animals and a deficit of 75% with death (Hattersley 1996; Bliznakov et al. 1988).
___________________________________________________________

Cardiovascular Advances
CoQ10 has been shown to be effective against chronic inflammation of the arteries and heart muscle tissue resulting in cardiac myopathy. In addition, studies by Japanese and Australian re-searchers, as well as by scientists in the US and elsewhere, have consistently shown the supplement’s effectiveness against congestive heart failure and in preventing secondary cardiac events after patients have suffered an initial heart attack.


In Molecular Cell Biology, Drs. Singh and Kumar published the results of another randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study showing CoQ10’s benefits in combating atherosclerosis, increasing survival, and reducing the risk of subsequent cardiac events in heart attack patients, including those taking lipid-lowering drugs.2

Late last year, Japanese scientists at the University of Kyoto’s Graduate School of Medicine add-ed further evidence that CoQ10 protects the heart muscle against acute viral myocarditis, a life-threatening infection of the heart walls.4

CoQ10 is an essential component of the respiratory cycle of the cell that takes place in the mitochondria and generates ATP, the cell’s energy currency.*


What is CoQ10?

CoQ10 is an essential component of the respiratory cycle of the cell that takes place in the mitochondria and generates ATP, the cell’s energy currency.

Orally administered CoQ10 goes directly to the mitochondria where it works to regulate the oxidation of fats and sugars into energy—an important function since the natural production of CoQ10 declines with advancing age. When the body has an ample amount of CoQ10 the mitochondria can work most efficiently throughout the entire body, in cells everywhere, including the most densely populated area, the heart.


When CoQ10 is orally administered, it is absorbed through the lymphatic canals and distributed throughout the body. Coenzyme Q10 should be taken with some form of fat, since absorption through the lymphatic canals is greatly enhanced in the presence of dietary fat

____________________________________________________________

My next vitamin staple is going to be CoenzymeQ10 along with my fish oil and B vitamins!!!!
_________________________________________________________

The below are links I have added from Prior IOL discussions on Heart Health.
http://www.davedraper.com/forum/showflat...5/o/all/fpart/1


You may need to be tested. Remember Dave was tested at the Berkeley Heart Lab for his dense LDL particles. The Lab also tests for C-Reactive Protein, Homocysteine , Fasting Insulin levels, Chlamydia,Liver Panal and many other markers that combined can determine if you are heart healthy. Below is the Link to Berkeley Labs.

http://www.bhlinc.com/
________________________________________________________

Look what I found! The very Lab that tested Dave is giving away free tests if you have 2 of the symptoms of heart disease. Check to see if you qualify.

http://www.kron4.com/Global/story.asp?S=1850950&nav=5D7l5dvB

_____________________________________________________

Here is a link to a description of the tests done by the Berkely Lab:

http://www.bhlinc.com/PDF/HCP/lab_tests_description.pdf

=========================================================

Serum homocysteine levels predict heart attack mortality in women

A report published in the February 10 2004 issue of the American Heart Association journal Circulation, has uncovered an association between elevated levels of homocysteine and heart attack risk, as well as death by heart attack. Homocysteine has been established as a heart disease risk factor in men, while few studies have examined its role in women.

The study involved participants enrolled in the Population Study of Women in Gothenburg ( Sweden ), which was begun from 1968 to 1969. The current study followed 1,368 participants for twenty-four years who were free of myocardial infarction at the study's onset. Frozen blood samples were analyzed for serum homocysteine levels in 2001.

During the follow-up period, eighty-eight acute myocardial infarctions occurred, with forty-two of them resulting in fatalities. The Scandinavian research team found that homocysteine was an independent risk factor for heart attack and death from heart attack . Women in the highest one-fifth of homocysteine levels (greater than 14.2 micromoles per Liter) had nearly twice the risk of experiencing an acute myocardial infarction and over five times the risk of dying from it than the remaining individuals, after adjustment for various factors. Homocysteine levels were positively correlated with age and inversely associated with serum vitamin B12.

The authors write that, “ . . . (serum total homocysteine )-lowering treatment with combined vitamins B12, B6, and folate has shown promising potential of reducing secondary coronary events in a few recently published studies, which may have wider clinical application in the future. However, whether this is applicable to all vascular events remains to be shown. Interestingly, vitamin B12 deficiency, folate deficiency, and hyperhomocysteinemia have more recently been linked to risk for development of dementia, which may reflect its vascular etiology.” ( Zylberstein DE et al , “Serum homocysteine in relation to mortality and morbidity from coronary heart disease,” Circulation , Feb 10 2004 , p 601-606.

________________________________________________________

Take your B Vitamins People!


******************************************************


Niacin

In 2000, sales of cholesterol reducers in the U.S. were over $9 billion, including $4.1 billion for Pfizer's Lipitor (atorvastatin) and $2.8 billion for Merck's Zocor (simvastatin).

Niacin, only a few years ago was called by the FDA the "drug of choice" for cholesterol reduction. Niacin is very effective at lowering LDL, VLDL, and triglycerides and also greatly increases HDL. Long term studies have shown reductions in disease progression and mortality in subjects with cardiovascular disease. Nicotinic acid (but not nicotinamide) in gram doses is reported in the PDR Generics (First Edition, pg. 2035) to produce an average 10-20% reduction in total and LDL-cholesterol, a 30- 70% reduction in triglycerides, and an average 20-35% increase in HDL-cholesterol. In a 1999 review2, niacin was said to have greater ability to increase HDL than any other drug.
 
your2slow
*
Total Posts: 33
Re: Cholesterol
09-05-04 10:10 PM - Post#33337    



Speaking from several years experience with different statin drugs I can say that they do in fact have some bad side effects. If you decide to go the prescription drug route be sure to watch out for any signs of uncommon fatigue or muscle soreness. I had bad reactions to two different statin drugs that caused me to have flu like symptons that I just couldn't shake. The first time was a few years ago and I felt the effects of the medicine within a few days. The last time in June I had really started trying to control my cholestrol through diet and exercise. My total cholestrol had dropped to 96 by April, but my doctor wanted to keep me on the medicine to bring my HDL levels up. My cholestrol levels got too low in June and I started having the same flu like symptons again. I went off the medicine and immediately started to feel better. The side effect I was experiencing was that my muscles were getting broken down so it felt like I was in a post workout state all the time. Statin drugs are hard on the liver and kidneys as well. If there's anyway you can control it without drugs do so.
 
Laree
*
Total Posts: 26002
Country: Z
Show User Page
(Blog, Gallery, Shoutbox & Buddies etc...): No

Last Login IP: 162.158.63.64
Last Online: 06-15-23
User ID: 3
Login Name: ldraper
Date Agreed to Rules: 12-09-10
Country: Z
Occupation: Website work
info_have_been_training_since: 12-31-79
Primary Training Purpose: Fitness and strength beats aging badly
Real Email Address: ld@davedraper.com
Homepage: davedraper.com
(Rhymes with Marie)
Full name: Laree Draper
Gender: female
Re: Cholesterol
09-06-04 11:05 AM - Post#33338    



We're there, Q, been taking COQ10 for a long time, but only earlier this year did we see the high dosage recommended (100mg). That's much higher than normally taken; it's mostly found in 30mg-dose capsules. Kind of expensive to get the optimum dose, too. Absolutely worth it for Dave, other heart patients and people with high cholesterol, for sure.
 
/sk
*
Total Posts: 4826
Re: Cholesterol
09-07-04 12:04 PM - Post#33339    



Teresa, it is pretty obviouls that your cholesterol is too high. It is pretty much a given that dietary cholesterol is not as related to serum as was once thought. But no matter what all the statin naysayers will tell you, if your arteries plug up, it will be with cholesterol. Doing what you can with your diet and exercise is the best thing you can do personally but there are many who will not respond enough, or fast enough, to avaoid CAD.

My cholesterol was below 150 when I had my heart attack in January. Why did I have one? The only thing plugging the arteries was cholesterol. 95% in most places. Very possibly it was having the bad luck to contract an infection that irritated the lining of my arteries. Once the lining was irritated, I did not need a high level of cholesterol to plug them up. Using a the lowest dose of Lipitor and a drug called Zetia, my total cholesterol is 101.

Listen to your doctor if you trust them, if you do not, find one you do.

/sk
 
Sharon
*
Total Posts: 898
Re: Cholesterol
09-07-04 01:17 PM - Post#33340    



My overlong post above citing CoQ10 medical facts and studies states that a dose of COQ10 should also be taken whenever statin drugs are needed.. There are hundreds of studies that prove the effectiveness of COQ10 however, since COQ10 is a natural substance and not a patented drug, CoQ10 has not been adopted by mainstream medicine. By the way, Canadian health authorities require that statins sold in Canada carry a precautionary warning regarding CoQ10 depletion. The scientific name for CoQ10 is ubiquinone. The following warning is on Lipitor
“Significant decreases in circulating ubiquinone(CoQ10) levels in patients treated with atorvastatin and other statins have been observed. The clinical significance of a potential long-term statin-induced deficiency of ubiquinone(CoQ10) has not been established. It has been reported that a decrease in myocardial ubiquinone(CoQ10) levels could lead to impaired cardiac function in patients with borderline congestive heart failure . . .”


/sk, glad to see that you are doing well! We seem to have quite a few survivors at IOL coming back bigger, better and stronger then ever! WOW!!!
 
Teresa
*
Total Posts: 4427
Re: Cholesterol
09-07-04 02:00 PM - Post#33341    



Thanks everyone for all the great input. Quazar, I especially appreciated your "overlong" post - nothing's overlong if it's valuable! Clearly this is something I need to get under control, but I want to do some careful research first.
"You will not be carrying around a scale to jump on and show people." - Vicki Masterson "The following time you better do more or you are dirt!" - Vicki again


 
The Judge
*
Total Posts: 16490
Re: Cholesterol
09-07-04 11:24 PM - Post#33342    



Teresa,

I have used a protocol for lowering cholesterol that has not yet failed with many I have shared it with. It started when I found my total cholesterol levels were over 320. I did much research and found that statin drugs which my doctor wanted to put me on were loaded with side effects and toxic to the liver. That is why they state that they want people on them to have their liver levels checked every six months. The drug companies know that many will not check them regularly but it will protect them from lawsuits when livers begin to fail. My mother was put on statins and suffered muscle pain, tenderness and extreme fatigue. These are classis side effects of statins. WHen she went back to the doctor and asked about it, he said that it was not from the drugs. Her blood test did not come out much better so he doubled her prescription! I bought her the supplements I took and she stopped taking the drugs.When she went back for the follow-up, her tests came out great. The doctor was pleased that his double dose was working! My mother had to explain that she was not any drugs. She has not taken statins since and her subsequent tests have all been good. The nurse at my school, my former secretary, my frat brother and many others have had similar successes.

This is my regiment:

Non-flushing naicin - 500mg. twice a day (regular niacin causes an annoying but relatively harmless flushing that appears as a rash and causes itching. It disappears in about 15 minutes and eventually it doesn't happen but I would rather avoid it.

Folic acid - 800 mcg. twice a day

Fish oil - 2 caps per day

The most effective supplement of all - Red Yeast Rice - 1200 mg.twice a day. So far it is readily available in health food stores and vitamin shops but the drug companies have been trying to have it banned. It works by blocking the liver from producing cholesterol like the statins but naturally and without the side effects.

I also take large doses of vitamins C and E but for many health reasons other than lipid levels and they didn't appear to help when I took them without the other supplements.

My frat brother was on statins and they were not working well and he was not feeling well. His numbers were in the high 300's and last time he tested at 160 after taking these supplements for six months. The ratio of HDL to LDL is tremendously improved as well.

When I had some tests recently in the hospital, the cardiologist said my cholesterol profile was terrific. I told him what I was doing and he wrote it down and said he was going to take them himself! My mother has changed doctors and the PA she sees is now taking the same supplements after seeing the results.

I will never take statins. That is my decision. I have learned much about the effects and would not submit my body to them.Everyone needs to make their own choices. Definitely get tested and re-tested but think twice before taking these drugs.

I hope this gives you some food for thought. Definitely do some research yourself. Be well.
Judge John

"You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves." - Abraham Lincoln

"I live, I lift, I ache, I am." - Dave Draper

"Moderation assures mediocrity -- nice, safe. Mediocrity is for the mediocre -- simple, okay. The intense rule; the mediocre follow." - Dave Draper

Every day innocent plants are killed by vegetarians. Help stop the slaughter. EAT MEAT!


 
Sharon
*
Total Posts: 898
Re: Cholesterol
09-08-04 11:24 AM - Post#33343    



Teresa,

I've gone overboard on this issue! You need to check out this natural product POLICOSANOL along with Red Yeast Rice.

Policosanol is a supplement that can normalize cholesterol as well or better than drugs, without side effects.(1) Efficacy and safety have been proven in numerous clinical trials, and it has been used by millions of people in other countries. Policosanol, 10mg, can lower LDL cholesterol as much as 24% and raise protective HDL cholesterol by 16%. This compares favorably with cholesterol-lowering drugs which have the drawback of side effects such as liver dysfunction and muscle atrophy. Policosanol is free of these side effects.

Benefits of Policosanol

• Lowers cholesterol without life-threatening side effects
• Elevates HDL better than most statin drugs
• Inhibits the formation of lesions in arteries
• Keeps LDL from oxidizing
• Enhances the benefits of exercise
• Reduces complications in people with artery diseases
• Reduces thromboxane which promotes inflammation
• Doesn’t interfere with sex life
• Inhibits the formation of clots

Policosanol also inhibits the formation of clots, and may work synergistically with aspirin in this respect. In a comparison of aspirin and policosanol, aspirin was better at reducing one type of platelet aggregation (clumping together of blood cells). But policosanol was better at inhibiting another type. Together, policosanol and aspirin worked better than either alone.(10,11)

Policosanol doesn’t appear to affect triglycerides. Serum triglyceride levels may be lowered by other supplements such as fish oil.(22-23)

Policosanol is a natural supplement derived from sugar cane. Policosanol is a mixture of eight higher primary aliphatic alcohols isolated and purified from sugar cane wax. Cheap versions of policisanol that contain a high amount of octacosanol have flooded the American marketplace. If one expects to derive the benefits shown in the published studies, the other alcohols that make up the pharmaceutical-approved policosanol product should be present
 
Teresa
*
Total Posts: 4427
Re: Cholesterol
09-08-04 01:52 PM - Post#33344    



Quazar & the Judge, WOW, lots of important new information to check out. I've never heard of either policosanol or red yeast rice. Thanks!!
"You will not be carrying around a scale to jump on and show people." - Vicki Masterson "The following time you better do more or you are dirt!" - Vicki again


 
/sk
*
Total Posts: 4826
Re: Cholesterol
09-08-04 04:46 PM - Post#33345    



/sk
 
Teresa
*
Total Posts: 4427
Re: Cholesterol
11-14-04 03:29 PM - Post#33346    



I am resurrecting an old thread to report a significant improvement in my cholesterol levels. OK, not that this is a big thing, but what's significant is that back in mid-September, I started on a regimen of supplements suggested by Judge John and Quazar. I've kept at this religiously for two months, then had my cholesterol levels tested again last week. Results:

Total-215; HDL-82; LDL-113

This compares to Total-259; HDL-71; and LDL-170 back in June.

Triglyceride levels were right around 90 both times.

So progress made!

Teresa
"You will not be carrying around a scale to jump on and show people." - Vicki Masterson "The following time you better do more or you are dirt!" - Vicki again


 
Laree
*
Total Posts: 26002
Country: Z
Show User Page
(Blog, Gallery, Shoutbox & Buddies etc...): No

Last Login IP: 162.158.63.64
Last Online: 06-15-23
User ID: 3
Login Name: ldraper
Date Agreed to Rules: 12-09-10
Country: Z
Occupation: Website work
info_have_been_training_since: 12-31-79
Primary Training Purpose: Fitness and strength beats aging badly
Real Email Address: ld@davedraper.com
Homepage: davedraper.com
(Rhymes with Marie)
Full name: Laree Draper
Gender: female
Re: Cholesterol
11-14-04 03:41 PM - Post#33347    



Fabulous, Teresa!

Could you write down which if the suggestions you took? Briefly?


 
Teresa
*
Total Posts: 4427
Re: Cholesterol
11-14-04 04:01 PM - Post#33348    



Sure, Laree.... here it is:

3 EFA capsules (combo flax, fish & borage oils)
Red Yeast Rice - 600 mg capsule 2x/day
Non-flushing niacin - 640 mg capsule 2x/day
CoQ10 - 50 mg
Policosanol - 20 mg
Magnesium - 250 mg

This was in addition to my usual regimen of a multi-vit, Vit E, Vit C, and calcium supplements. Other than the supplements, I pretty much kept up with my same eating & exercise routine.
"You will not be carrying around a scale to jump on and show people." - Vicki Masterson "The following time you better do more or you are dirt!" - Vicki again


 
The Judge
*
Total Posts: 16490
Re: Cholesterol
11-14-04 04:36 PM - Post#33349    



Teresa,

Just a few further suggestions - you didn't add the folic acid which can lower homocysteine levels which are more important as a marker for heart disease than cholesterol. Also, straight fish oil will work more effectively than a combo oil for cholesterol although the combo's are good for overall health. Finally, you can add psyllium seed (such as Metamuscil) - one or two servings per day. I also take oat bran and pectin tabs for additional fiber, all of which lower cholesterol.

I am so pleased that you had such great results. This regiment has not failed for one person who I have recommended it to. My mother continues to have good test results and so have I and that is without drugs and a tasteless and unhealthy low-fat diet.
Judge John

"You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves." - Abraham Lincoln

"I live, I lift, I ache, I am." - Dave Draper

"Moderation assures mediocrity -- nice, safe. Mediocrity is for the mediocre -- simple, okay. The intense rule; the mediocre follow." - Dave Draper

Every day innocent plants are killed by vegetarians. Help stop the slaughter. EAT MEAT!


 
Teresa
*
Total Posts: 4427
Re: Cholesterol
11-14-04 05:48 PM - Post#33350    



John, oh, duh.... I forgot about the folic acid. I'll pick some up this week. And I like the suggestion about the various sources of soluble fiber. I guess the pectin in jam isn't the best source, is it! I do eat a modest serving of whole-grain cereal most mornings. Maybe I'll switch to oat groats daily.

Thanks again for your invaluable help!
"You will not be carrying around a scale to jump on and show people." - Vicki Masterson "The following time you better do more or you are dirt!" - Vicki again


 
ccrow
*
Total Posts: 10055
Signature: The most important test a lifter has to pass
is the test of time.
-Jon Cole

Show User Page
(Blog, Gallery, Shoutbox & Buddies etc...): No

Last Login IP: 172.70.134.229
Last Online: 03-14-23
User ID: 18
Login Name: ccrow
Primary Training Purpose: Health
Real Email Address: ccrowsmail@yahoo.com
Primary Training Style: Volume
old hand
Bio: No Bio
Re: Cholesterol
11-14-04 05:59 PM - Post#33351    



Teresa, those numbers are fantastic! In particular the HDL numbers are super. HDL over 75 is sometimes referred to as "longevity syndrome" because the protective effect of HDL is thought to make heart disease quite rare at that level. Your HDL:LDL ratio is way past 2:1, incredible. Congratulations and thanks for updating this thread.
The most important test a lifter has to pass
is the test of time.
-Jon Cole


 
Amazonblonde
*
Total Posts: 12642
Re: Cholesterol
11-14-04 06:33 PM - Post#33352    



Good Job Teresa!!!!My folks both lowered their numbers by eating oatmeal everyday for breakfast!!!!!:-)
Obsessed is a word the lazy use to describe the dedicated!!!


 
Sharon
*
Total Posts: 898
Re: Cholesterol
11-14-04 07:13 PM - Post#33353    



Sytrinol™ - Another Natural Supplement for the Health Conscious- No side effects!

For those of you on a budget here is the latest natural cholesterol lowering supplement made from Citrus and Palm fruit extracts! Orange Peel!

An article on Sytrinol in ScienceDaily :Orange, Tangerine Peels Could Be Better Than Drugs For Lowering Cholesterol

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/05/040512041238.htm



Here is a WebMD article written in May 2004.
http://my.webmd.com/content/Article/87/99306.htm

Short term studies on humans have been favorable.

"The cardioprotective and cholesterol-lowering claims for Sytrinol™ are also supported by human studies. Two early trials, each using 10 subjects, measured the effects of Sytrinol™ in men and women diagnosed with hyper-cholesterolemia and screened to eliminate thyroid disorders, kidney disorders, and diabetes. Subjects were instructed to maintain normal dietary habits and discontinue using vitamins, supplements, and cholesterol-lowering medications for at least six weeks before and during the study. Fasting blood samples were drawn at the onset and at the end of each four-week trial, and plasma lipid profiles and other metabolic parameters were analyzed using standard methods.


The results from the first trial (Table 1) show that four weeks of treatment with 300 mg of Sytrinol™ daily significantly reduced levels of total cholesterol (-25%), LDL (-19%), and triglycerides (-24%). HDL levels were unchanged and body mass remained relatively stable.

In the second trial, subjects with elevated cholesterol again benefited after only four weeks of treatment with 300 mg per day of Sytrinol™. As shown in Table 2, treatment with Sytrinol™ substantially cut levels of plasma total cholesterol (-20%), LDL (-22%), apolipoprotein B (-21%), and triglycerides (-28%). Additionally, subjects in the second trial benefited from a significant 5% increase in apolipoprotein A1, an important structural protein of HDL."


Notice at the end of the WebMD article there is a long term study being conducted on humans and I have the update for this long term study:

"Sytrinol™ is currently being tested in a long-term, double-blind, crossover randomized study involving 120 men and women with moderately elevated cholesterol levels (total cholesterol above 230 mg/dL and LDL greater than 155 mg/dL). For 12 weeks, subjects will receive either 300 mg per day of Sytrinol™ or placebo, followed by a washout period of four weeks and another 12 weeks during which the groups receiving the active compound or placebo will be crossed over.

Only the first 12 weeks (phase 1) of the long-term study have been completed, yet already the results are compelling. As shown in Table 3, compared to placebo, the Sytrinol™ subjects saw reductions of 30% in total cholesterol, 27% in LDL, and 34% in total triglycerides. In addition, HDL levels increased 4%, resulting in a significant 29% reduction in the LDL:HDL ratio."

Keep your eye on this product! I did a google and the internet is flooded with it.
 
AllYourStrength
*
Total Posts: 562
Re: Cholesterol
11-15-04 01:29 AM - Post#33354    



Judge, feel free to chime in:

The results you've obtained are great, Teresa! Just a few things to add, if I may.

Non-flush niacin has greater toxic effects on the liver than does plain niacin, so be sure to have your AST/ALT blood levels checked every 4 months. I personally find that plain old nicotinic acid works better, especially at increasing LDL particle density (something non-flush niacin has yet to do clinically that I'm aware of), and the flush is easily disuaded with a baby aspirin in the morning. If your doc OKs it, I think aspirin would be a good addition to the stack. Just an enterically-coated baby aspirin will do the trick according to the AHA.

Bear in mind that cholesterol levels alone have NOT been linked to heart disease nearly to the extent that the media and pharmeceutical companies would love for you to believe. Most MIs are caused by blood clots...something simple aspirin helps. Over 50% of these MIs occur in people with cholesterol levels under 200; ratios only slightly improve this. Heart disease is even more skewed with over 65% registering low to normal cholesterol.

What 'is' important, from what I've learned, is to monitor the following, in addition to playing it safe by keeping cholesterol in the normal range:

1. Make sure your LDL particle size is LARGE. This can be shown on a VAP test (www.atherotech.com). There is quite a bit of evidence that suggests LDL particle size has more to do with HD than mere LDL levels, ratios, etc. This explains why families like mine (with nearly everyone registering cholesterol in the 400-500 range) have no history of heart disease. Our LDL particle size is large enough to prevent damage, and we have naturally low inflammatory response markers (like LP(a), for example...a nasty little protein deviant.)

2. Stress, smoking and genetics have more to do with HD than cholesterol ever will, at least for most of us. Blood pressure ranks right up there as well. Needless to say, so will drugs and so-forth.

KUDOS to the Judge for suggesting this stack over dangerous (and often unnecessary) statin drugs. It's similar to the one I use on my clients who are concerned about their lipid levels. I personally am not that concerned (I'm more of the www.thincs.org mindset), however there's no harm in playing it safe.

Oh, and bravo on the CoQ10/magnesium connection, Judge. I've seen great results at 200mg/day of CoQ10 alone.

Keep up the good work Teresa!
Jon Benson
Nutrition and Fitness Lifecoach
= warning: shameless promos below =

<img src="http://allyourstreng th.com/ayssm.jpg">

<a href="http://ays.artifextech.com/TTPInfo.aspx" target="_blank">TTP-90 </a>: Click for info on my 12-week one-on-one <i>Total Transformation Program </i>

<a href="http://www.fitover40.com" target="_blank">Fit Over 40</a>: Click to download a free sample of


 
Wicked Willie
*
Total Posts: 16864
Re: Cholesterol
11-15-04 07:00 AM - Post#33355    



There is a water soluble fiber product on the market that is derived from grapefruit fiber, which appears to work fairly well in this regard. It's called Pro_Fibe and was developed by the late Dr. Cerda here at the University of Florida. I don't know about it's widespread availability. Well tested.

www.profibe.com

I have no financial interest in this...just know about it due to proximity.
"I'm in good shape for the shape I'm in."

"Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life:
no man comes to the Father, but by me." John 14:6


 
pointcove
*
Total Posts: 1136
Re: Cholesterol
11-15-04 06:27 PM - Post#33356    



Teresa, hey, that is great. I am always willing to learn medicine that is not in the text books. I trust the people on this board, such as yourself, to report their experiences with supplements and training. Congrat and keep it up.
John...Pointcove


 
pointcove
*
Total Posts: 1136
LDL Cholesterol Latest Studies
01-14-05 01:24 PM - Post#65093    



I finally picked up my November CME issue of Clinical Advisor. You know the holidays and my addiction to IOL, ha. This issue is dedicated to cholesterol management. Specifically, it is based on the latest recommendations of the National Cholesterol Education Program (NCEP). The issue is written mainly by Dean G. Karalis, MD, FACC. He looked at 5 recent studies: 1. Antihypertensive and Lipid-Lowering Treatment to Prevent Heart Attack Trial-Lipid Lowering Trial, 2. Anglo-Scandanavian Cardiac. Outcomes Trial-Lipid-Lowering Arm, 3. Heart Protection Study, 4. Prospective Study of Pravastatin in the Elderly at Risk, 5. Pravastatin or Atorvastatin Evaluation and Infection-Thrombolysis in Myocardial Infarction.

If I may sum up, the main conclusion of these studies is the reemphasis of lowering LDL cholesterol, the bad one. The studies found that in patients with normal total cholesterols, high or NORMAL LDLs, lowering LDL lowered death from coronary artery disease significantly. In addition, lowering the LDL stopped the progression of atherosclerotic disease. It is more important to lower the LDL, than lower total cholesterol, triglycerides or raise HDL, the good cholesterol. In something that many of you disagree with, all of the studies study recommend the aggressive use of statins. They do briefly mention lifestyle changes to lower LDL. One thing mentioned is that monounsaturated fatty acids lower LDL. It looks like some of you folks here were ahead of your time in that regard.

Some of the new ideas mentioned on this board in the past were mentioned as investigations in progress. Homocysteine research, for one. I’m just throwing this out for discussion. It is clear we need to lower LDL now. I know that many of you feel that it can be done without statins. Can any of you be specific? Omega 3s and exercise…what else?
John...Pointcove


 
ccrow
*
Total Posts: 10055
Signature: The most important test a lifter has to pass
is the test of time.
-Jon Cole

Show User Page
(Blog, Gallery, Shoutbox & Buddies etc...): No

Last Login IP: 172.70.134.229
Last Online: 03-14-23
User ID: 18
Login Name: ccrow
Primary Training Purpose: Health
Real Email Address: ccrowsmail@yahoo.com
Primary Training Style: Volume
old hand
Bio: No Bio
Re: LDL Cholesterol Latest Studies
01-14-05 02:01 PM - Post#65094    



John, I'm with you, but there is a causation / corellation question. Particularly if all of the cited studies used statin drugs. In a recent thread ("CRP on NPR") we discussed a report that cited studies that showed that statins also reduce inflammation and lowered risk independant of effect on cholesterol - so perhaps it is more important to watch markers of inflammation than LDL. I am not suggesting that we dismiss the statistical correlation between high LDL and heart disease. I am saying that nothing is settled until we have a theory that reconciles all the statistical data. This theory can not dismiss the statistics that indicate LDL is not causative.

Regarding HDL, how can we dismiss the fact that with HDL above 70-75, heart disease is almost unheard of, irrespective of LDL? If there was a drug or therapy that would raise HDL to these very high levels, that would be interesting to study.
The most important test a lifter has to pass
is the test of time.
-Jon Cole


 
pointcove
*
Total Posts: 1136
Re: LDL Cholesterol Latest Studies
01-14-05 02:12 PM - Post#65095    



Ccrow, I don't explain um...just toss um at ya. Seriously, you make good points and, yes, the author is funded by the drug companies I read in the disclosure.
John...Pointcove


 
AllYourStrength
*
Total Posts: 562
Re: LDL Cholesterol Latest Studies
01-14-05 03:40 PM - Post#65096    



John;

I urge you to check out www.thincs.org and see the counters to this and many other studies like it. You'll find a lot of the findings ripped apart by the 'master study reader' Dr. Uffe Ravnskov.

LDL is harmless unless oxidized. The problem is a lack of antioxidants and an increase in inflammation. LDL is a member of the party, but the lowering of LDL is a side-effect of the lowering of inflammation, which statins do (dangerously, but effectively.) LDL particle size may be much more imporant, and good old nicotinic acid will take care of that.

I know this is your biz, so pardon my post. : ) However, the funding is dubious, as are the 'overall' mortality stats, which Ravnskov illustrates with laser-like precision.

Let me know what you think...and thanks again for the info on viscosity. I'll reach you later today.
Jon Benson
Nutrition and Fitness Lifecoach
= warning: shameless promos below =

<img src="http://allyourstreng th.com/ayssm.jpg">

<a href="http://ays.artifextech.com/TTPInfo.aspx" target="_blank">TTP-90 </a>: Click for info on my 12-week one-on-one <i>Total Transformation Program </i>

<a href="http://www.fitover40.com" target="_blank">Fit Over 40</a>: Click to download a free sample of


 
pointcove
*
Total Posts: 1136
Re: LDL Cholesterol Latest Studies
01-14-05 05:45 PM - Post#65097    



Jon, actually, patients with dyslipidemias are not my business. I am into the surgical side after the noninvasive things don't work. Not a fun, thing, but, still, a necessary one. I posted the summation to let you guys see that these studies represent the current thinking of the mainstream medical community concerning coronary artery disease. Personally, I am close to being where you guys are in regards to believing that balancing your fats with Omega3's is more important than low fats and statins. Low fats were the other emphasis in the article and I don't mind telling you that I follow a high fat, low carb diet, myself, with loads of flaxseed. Know what I wish? Some great, definitive study that would support the thoughts expressed on this board about the importance of Omega3's and exercise, while staying away from sugar and flour.
John...Pointcove


 
AllYourStrength
*
Total Posts: 562
Re: LDL Cholesterol Latest Studies
01-14-05 05:49 PM - Post#65098    



One more point:

If LDL or any deviant form of cholesterol 'caused' heart disease, as the media would love us to believe, then it stands to reason that the VAST majority of people with high lipids would in fact have heart disease.

This is not the case.

Over half the victims of fatal MIs have LOW cholesterol (under 200) and normal LDL (under 100). Over 'half'.

Seventy-five percent of people with heart 'disease' of any variety have normal lipids.

Compare this to, say, lung cancer. You can get lung cancer in ways other than smoking—yet the vast majority of cases involve smokers. So, one can 'easily' claim that smoking can 'cause' lung cancer. What the statin manufacturers want us to believe is that high cholesterol can 'cause' heart disease, which is a falacy of logic. High cholesterol, along with low antioxidant levels, elevated inflammatory elements, bad genetics, etc. can 'add up' to heart disease.

Even more shocking is the evidence 'against' lowering cholesterol below 220, certainly below 170. Suicidal depression is 400% higher in people with cholesterol levels uner 170, for example. The Framington study ironically shows that people lived LONGER the higher their total cholesterol was over the age of 50! This is not talked about very much, but covered well in books like "Heart Frauds" by Dr. McGee and "The Cholesterol Myths" by Dr. Ravnskov...among others.

It may very well be an indicator, but certainly not a cause...or at least that's the conclusion of my thincs.org bretheren. : )
Jon Benson
Nutrition and Fitness Lifecoach
= warning: shameless promos below =

<img src="http://allyourstreng th.com/ayssm.jpg">

<a href="http://ays.artifextech.com/TTPInfo.aspx" target="_blank">TTP-90 </a>: Click for info on my 12-week one-on-one <i>Total Transformation Program </i>

<a href="http://www.fitover40.com" target="_blank">Fit Over 40</a>: Click to download a free sample of


 
pointcove
*
Total Posts: 1136
Re: LDL Cholesterol Latest Studies
01-14-05 06:14 PM - Post#65099    



Jon, as usual you make good points. These studies were endorsed by both the American College of Cardiology and the American Heart Association to show you how we are against the mainstream. One thing, though, about the fact of over half the patients who die from MIs have normal cholesterol, etc. Thinking about that, there are many heart attacks from factors not related to coronary artery disease...arrhythmias and so on.
John...Pointcove


 
Anonymous
Re: LDL Cholesterol Latest Studies
01-14-05 06:22 PM - Post#65100    



Joe Bob says check this out:

http://www.health-heart.org/
 
The Judge
*
Total Posts: 16490
Re: LDL Cholesterol Latest Studies
01-15-05 12:02 AM - Post#65101    



John, I am afraid you will never see a definitive study relative to the ingestion of healthy oils as a preventive for heart disease. Studies are funded by the drug companies to prove their own points - in this case, that everyone should be on statins. They (the drug companies) will not be happy until everyone is taking a pill to lower cholesterol, a pill for depression, a pill for libido and a pill you have to swallow to take advantage of the libido that the previous pill brought on.
Judge John

"You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves." - Abraham Lincoln

"I live, I lift, I ache, I am." - Dave Draper

"Moderation assures mediocrity -- nice, safe. Mediocrity is for the mediocre -- simple, okay. The intense rule; the mediocre follow." - Dave Draper

Every day innocent plants are killed by vegetarians. Help stop the slaughter. EAT MEAT!


 
Rose
*
Total Posts: 30
Re: LDL Cholesterol Latest Studies
01-15-05 01:40 AM - Post#65102    



Pointcove, in response to your original question about specific ways to lower LDL without statins ...

Yeah, I did it. Low fat, high carb, whole food, no statins.

Judge, there has been research into the impact of a low-fat diet on heart disease and prostate cancer, much of it long-term and on-going. There's no reason that research into the impact of healthy oils on heart disease could or would not be funded by the government.

If healthy oils could be shown to reduce heart disease, medicare and medicaid could be saved from financial ruin. The studies would have to last 2-5 years to be of value.

As you will see in one of the links below, Medicare is paying for patients to participate in a demonstration project that uses a low-fat diet. Why not the opposite?


http://www.pmri.org/Abstract_AMA.htm

http://www.pmri.org/PMRI_RESEARCH.html
 
AllYourStrength
*
Total Posts: 562
Re: LDL Cholesterol Latest Studies
01-15-05 01:54 AM - Post#65103    



Quote:

Rose said:
Pointcove, in response to your original question about specific ways to lower LDL without statins ...

Yeah, I did it. Low fat, high carb, whole food, no statins.




Welcome Rosie!

Two pertinent questions if I may: first of all, why lower LDL if LDL is not a risk factor unless it's small particle LDL? Check out thincs.org.

Second, more of a comment: most low-fat diets will raise triglyceride levels, which is far more dangerous than LDL in my opinion. Also, there are literally hundreds of studies on high-fat, low carb diets that proof their effectiveness at improving LDL size and ratio to HDL (increasing HDL). Still, I'm a skeptic to the lipid hypothesis (as everyone here knows... : ), so the point is moot.

Most heart disease is caused by inflammation—definitely MIs—and statins have been shown to be anti-inflammatory in nature. Of course, at great risk and cost. Fish oil and vitamin C is much less expensive. Niacin lowers lipids and increases LDL particle density far better and cheaper (and safer) than statins. Stains have been linked to all sorts of nasties.

Quote:

Rose said:
Judge, there has been research into the impact of a low-fat diet on heart disease and prostate cancer, much of it long-term and on-going. There's no reason that research into the impact of healthy oils on heart disease could or would not be funded by the government.




Please check out the site I gave you for...shall we say...a different view on that research. The Framington study is a classic example of statistical deception. As long as the pharmies are subsidizing govermental agencies...er, I mean, contributing to them...sorry...it's doubtful that we'll see much research in this country on the subject. However, Thincs is an international group and cites a million and one studies on this subject and more from European and Asian sources.

Quote:

Rose said:
If healthy oils could be shown to reduce heart disease, medicare and medicaid could be saved from financial ruin. The studies would have to last 2-5 years to be of value.

As you will see in one of the links below, Medicare is paying for patients to participate in a demonstration project that uses a low-fat diet. Why not the opposite?




Possibly because Medicare is a social service that doesn't profit the pocketbooks of the key players in this sick little game. Medicare is also funded 'from' the very sources that the pharmies dish the bucks to.

There's a great book on this subject if you're interested:

http://www.thincs.org./reviewjoel1.htm

The book: Overdo$ed America: How the Pharmaceutical Companies Distort Medical Knowledge, Mislead Doctors, and Compromise Your Health

= the resident skeptic =
Jon Benson
Nutrition and Fitness Lifecoach
= warning: shameless promos below =

<img src="http://allyourstreng th.com/ayssm.jpg">

<a href="http://ays.artifextech.com/TTPInfo.aspx" target="_blank">TTP-90 </a>: Click for info on my 12-week one-on-one <i>Total Transformation Program </i>

<a href="http://www.fitover40.com" target="_blank">Fit Over 40</a>: Click to download a free sample of


 
Rose
*
Total Posts: 30
Re: LDL Cholesterol Latest Studies
01-15-05 03:56 PM - Post#65104    



Jon Jon Jon ...

To a man with a hammer, everything begins to look like a nail. Now, please, put the hammer down for a minute and listen with both your considerable intellect and kind nature.

Pointcove made a statement and asked a specific question: "I'm just throwing this out for discussion. It is clear we need to lower LDL now. I know that many of you feel that it can be done without statins. Can any of you be specific? Omega 3s and exercise?what else?"

I lowered my total cholesterol by over 100 points, raised my good cholesterol, and lowered my bad cholesterol by following the strategies outlined by Dean Ornish, Nathan Pritikin and bodybuilder Bill Pearl. The results were quick, less than 90 days for a total turnaround. My triglycerides did go up to about the mid-50s. If I eat sugar, they shoot up to 130. Sugar is not a whole food, nor is white flour. Nor is oil.

Why lower LDL if it is not a risk factor? First, I'm not going to mortgage the farm on the idea that maybe it's not a risk factor. Too much at stake for me -- the whole life and death thing. But that doesn't answer your question.

I did not set out to lower my LDL. That was too narrow a goal. However, it did happen while I was using a lifestyle strategy to remove coronary blockages without surgery or medication. Pretty darn good deal for me and for everyone else who has experienced the same forturnate results. Just as it's a good deal that other folks have improved their health with the dietary stategies that are most often recommended here, as you have done.

Now, Jon, please put down your love of swinging the hammer long enough to be as happy for me and my 10% fat diet as I am for you and your 65% fat diet. I really am happy for you. You look great and your health is being restored. What's not to like about that? What's not to like about my success? We may make each other cringe on the whole fat issue, but that's just our hammer arms twitching in enthusiasm.

What I am really interested in hearing from you is why are most of your clients Atkin's failures? You mentioned that somewhere. It caught my eye because I know many Atkin's failures. They are struggling. They aren't interested in my approach. They can't even imagine it. Maybe your approach would be of help to them.

Why did your former Atkin's clients fail? What is different about the high fat diet you recommend to them? Why do they succeed there instead of failing as they did on Atkins? How has their health, not just their physiques, been transformed?

Maybe that's a new thread.

Rose
 
pointcove
*
Total Posts: 1136
Re: LDL Cholesterol Latest Studies
01-15-05 05:46 PM - Post#65105    



Rose, I'm not Jon, obviously, but I do know that I lost alot of weight on Atkins, but I had to limit calories. I probably didn't have to limit them much as you do on a low cal diet, but there came a point where the weight stopped going until I dropped the food intake regardless of the low carbs. I am very interested in your results as a practitioner. What coronary arteries were blocked, how much, how much did you clear them? Were you cathed twice and so on? I had mentioned before that results of very low fat diets had showed reversal of CAD, matter of fact. Presently, I have read the stuides Jon and others talk about and have swung that way. I think the most essential thing is Omega 3's and low carbs, but, as I said, I would love to hear your experience.
John...Pointcove


 
ccrow
*
Total Posts: 10055
Signature: The most important test a lifter has to pass
is the test of time.
-Jon Cole

Show User Page
(Blog, Gallery, Shoutbox & Buddies etc...): No

Last Login IP: 172.70.134.229
Last Online: 03-14-23
User ID: 18
Login Name: ccrow
Primary Training Purpose: Health
Real Email Address: ccrowsmail@yahoo.com
Primary Training Style: Volume
old hand
Bio: No Bio
Re: LDL Cholesterol Latest Studies
01-15-05 06:06 PM - Post#65106    



Rose, congratulations on your success with a low fat approach. I am particularly impressed that you managed to clean out blockages. I'd love to hear more details but if any of these questions are too personal, please disregard them. How long did it take to clear out the blockages? Are you concerned at all about your triglycerides, insulin, and blood sugar? Were you using any medication or supplements? Really any other details you felt were important.
The most important test a lifter has to pass
is the test of time.
-Jon Cole


 
jej
*
Total Posts: 4679
Re: LDL Cholesterol Latest Studies
01-15-05 06:12 PM - Post#65107    



Quote:

Rose said:
Pointcove, in response to your original question about specific ways to lower LDL without statins ...

Yeah, I did it. Low fat, high carb, whole food, no statins.
==============
I had much the same result as Rose, on the same diet plus high soluble fiber. Also lowered my trigs a lot.
jej
 
pointcove
*
Total Posts: 1136
Re: LDL Cholesterol Latest Studies
01-15-05 08:32 PM - Post#65108    



Quote:

jej said:
Quote:

Rose said:
Pointcove, in response to your original question about specific ways to lower LDL without statins ...

Yeah, I did it. Low fat, high carb, whole food, no statins.
==============
I had much the same result as Rose, on the same diet plus high soluble fiber. Also lowered my trigs a lot.
jej




Fantastic...the more details you can give us the better. What was the high soluble fiber?
John...Pointcove


 
 Page 1 of 14 1234>» Last
Quick Links: Main Index | Flight Deck | Training Logs | Dan John Deck | Must Reads | Archive
Topic options
Print topic


129831 Views

Home

What's New | Weekly Columns | Weight Training Tips
General Nutrition | Draper History | Mag Cover Shots | Magazine Articles | Bodybuilding Q&A | Bomber Talk | Workout FAQs
Privacy Policy


Top