11-29-07 06:03 AM - Post#378519    

Interesting indeed Greg, but isn't that the same organization promoting a vegan diet for diabetes? Unfortunately a lot of the best doctors aren't too up on nutrition.

But, do this

http://tinyurl.com/2og6f6

and you'll find this

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/99/6 /2128

which has a lot more to do with what we're talking about here.

I'm not saying this is a settled issue, I'm just saying at this point there is some valid science supporting intermittent fasting, and a lot of empirical evidence, enough to make it worth trying.

The most important test a lifter has to pass is the test of time. -Jon Cole

11-29-07 06:55 AM - Post#378529    

The site you quoted, was, in my opinion, much to technical for 95% of the people here. Even with my medical knowledge, I had trouble.
Ineresting though.
Greg

11-29-07 09:40 AM - Post#378591    

Hey, it's mostly over my head too, you just do like you do with a mystery book and read the ending first.

• In reply to:

The most important test a lifter has to pass is the test of time. -Jon Cole

12-30-07 11:07 PM - Post#390248    

I'm late to the discussion but this was one of the best threads I've read in ages. I'm going to give IF a try. :)

01-01-08 04:16 PM - Post#390756    

As soon as we can get rid of the Christmas crap around here I'm going to do some kind of detox fast thing.

It don't matter

Re: Intermittent Fasting
04-27-08 05:14 AM - Post#436047    

• tylergrip Said:

1)I think one important thing to remember in this contex is how our human body was 'trained' by circumstances over the millions of years.

Sometimes you hunt down some big beast and the whole tribe had food for days, sometimes berries were not to be found and what you had to chew on were old twigs and stones....so the body learned how to store fat in order to survive and also in order to reproduce (therefore females store fat more easily, for two so to speak)

It was never so easy to find food as it is today.
The human genome however, didn't change so much.

Any times the body feels threatened by hunger (=fast) it will try to store fat (after the fast-long or short) that is why people gain weight progressively on crash diets.

This is also what you try to bypass when eating varying amounts of calories when you try to loose weight. In so doing you try to confuse the body so it doesn't know what to do and before it catches up to your plan it happens to burn some extra calories.

I think you get best results if you try to cooperate with your body instead of fighting with it.

Therefore it is interesting to look at Chris Shugart's velocity diet and why he has such good results, even reprogramming the body's taste (for craving) healthy food.

His diet supplies -continuously- enough nutrients (thus doen't deprive the body in any way), at the same time he limits the amount of calories AND does that in connection to exercise.

Thus he 'fakes' the optimal situation of the cave man...with good nutrition, plenty of muscle work and he keeps in check the equation of intake and expenditure of calories which is always the basic rule.

My own conclusion: fasting is a bad way to loose weight when you look for lasting results.

2) Toxines are stored in the fat. Therefore when the fat is used as fuel the toxins are released into the blood stream. If your liver function is compromized (not optimal) you might definitely experience some problems.

pink pixie

Aut viam inveniam aut faciam.

Re: Intermittent Fasting
04-28-08 07:46 PM - Post#436433    

Any of you who were into IF when this thread was going strong still at it? If so, can you give us the results?

Be strong. Be in shape. Be a man among men, regardless of your age or circumstances.

04-28-08 08:29 PM - Post#436451    

I do a water fast for a couple of days. This seems to get rid of all craveings for suger. Only thing I can think of is eggs after one of these.

It don't matter

04-28-08 09:08 PM - Post#436461    

I'm still skipping breakfast (big whoop, huh?!). I think it has me eating cleaner -- no cravings -- but there's nothing weight-wise to report. Feels better, though.

Intermittent Fasting
04-29-08 09:41 AM - Post#436596    

I still seem to do it about once a week without really planning to.

I found that eating in the window from 6AM - 2PM every day, I can go either way - eat heavy and gain weight, eat lighter and lose weight - but either way, I am not really hungry at all from 2PM to bedtime.

The most important test a lifter has to pass is the test of time. -Jon Cole

Edited by ccrow on 04-29-08 09:41 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

04-29-08 01:02 PM - Post#436688    

• Laree Said:

Me too Laree. No breakfast, late lunch and dinner within an 8 hour period. Thus, 16 hour fast daily. Also, I like to train when hungry. Fight first, then deserve the food.

David

04-29-08 05:50 PM - Post#436813    

• dsun Said:

Sound strategy.

"When [defeat] comes, I won't even notice. I'll be too busy looking good."

05-06-08 12:27 PM - Post#439267    

fasting is not good for the body. and if one is eating small portions, and the correct foods, it is unnecessary.

05-06-08 01:01 PM - Post#439283    

• FoamRoller Said:

Do you have documentation for this statement or is it a personal opinion?

Wicked

"I'm in good shape for the shape I'm in." "Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me." John 14:6

05-06-08 01:18 PM - Post#439292    

documentation ? you mean like some one else's opinion ? or are you referring to "studies" ? the type of thing that is paid for by someone, and with outcomes that always appeal to the person doing the paying ?

yes, it is my personal opinion, backed by simple logic, and some experience of my own. the body is an electrical machine. it runs on a host of nutrients. if you put only the nutrients into your body that it wants, and keep out all the toxics, your body knows how to do the rest, WITHOUT FASTING.

05-06-08 01:29 PM - Post#439295    

one can take just about any sort of argument, and find arguments for both sides.

it took me 1 minute to find this article by webmd. not that i give any more credence to webmd than some other group who is talking about fasting being the next best thing to sliced bread.

just wanted to show you there are "personal opinions" on both sides of the issue.

05-06-08 01:56 PM - Post#439304    

• FoamRoller Said:

I don't know about you FoamRoller, but I'm no android. I do not view the human body as an electrical machine where thermodynamics apply, but a wonderful living non-linear being. Please tell us why fasting would be "bad".

David

Intermittent Fasting
05-06-08 06:25 PM - Post#439429    

My take on I.F.? No idea, except that every female trainee I had who needed to lose weight (and subsequently did) skipped breakfast before they worked with me, and once they added breakfast they started shedding the pounds. Does that mean that breakfast was the only thing I changed for them? Nope. But it worked. Going from 1-2 meals a day to 4-5 meals a day was the dietary key for these folks. Most were NOT eating too many calories, but they had slowed their metabolisms to a crawl. The extra meals per day provided the kickstart they needed (and most ended up able to consume far more calories in the long run than they were doing 1-2 times a day). What most of these trainees HAD been doing was a form of fasting...eating 1-2 times a day around 12pm and maybe again around 3pm, skipping breakfast and dinner.

Of course my above recommendation of 4-5 meals per day is 100% pragmatic - it works. Does that make it best? By no means. If I.F. works - and by 'works' I mean really works, not "oh I feel great" but actual documented muscle gain/fat loss, then it would be worth trying from a pragmatic standpoint.

"It is not an uncommon experience for people to talk and argue a great deal about something without anybody bothering to define precisely what it is." - Ross J.S. Hoffman I would like to see the truth clearly before it is too late. - Sartre We must begin by a definition, although definition involves a mental effort and therefore repels. - Hilaire Belloc

Edited by Steve C on 05-06-08 06:26 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

Intermittent Fasting
05-06-08 06:47 PM - Post#439437    

Foamroller,

It's a bit of an oversimplification. Fasting is natural for the body. It wasn't always so easy to get the food as it is today in the industrial countries. It may be bad food but there is a lot of it very easily available.

Also when your body is ill, it will have a tendency to eat less ....or fast for some time.

Eating is an individual matter to a certain degree, what is good for one might not be so good for another even if there might be some general agreement about how the body works. Some of those agreements may be reevaluated.

The situation may also change for one person during life time. There are many factors involved.

It's more fruitful to present facts as you experience them for yourself and explain why.

As long as you live there will always be at least two sides to each issue.

Aut viam inveniam aut faciam.

05-06-08 07:45 PM - Post#439445    

• dsun Said:

Uhm, well yes thermodyamics do apply to some degree, and yes all living things operate on electrical signals.

As far as IF goes, why would ya? I definately do not understand the concept, desire, or reasoning.

For weight loss 3 full body workouts a week. Eat 4 or 5 small meals a day. 3 or 4 times a week do a physical activety for at least an hour, more is better.

For weight gain, do the same thing but eat like a pig. Anything more complicated than that and my head spins.

Cliff

05-06-08 08:10 PM - Post#439458    

• Cliff Said:

If you've ever had food allergies or felt worse after eating something, regardless of how healthful the food, you might consider fasting from time to time. Personally I like IF at times because I can think sharper without the burden of digestion.

That said, I have a fast metabolism and a tendency to eat often but I like to base the frequency on how active I am. I've never understood the advice to eat every 3 hours regardless of if you're even hungry or you've been sitting around all day.

There's evidence that intermittent fasting can improve insulin sensitivity and thus nutrient partitioning. Alternating periods of undereating and slight overeating might accomplish the same thing, but most people just tend to do the latter.

"When [defeat] comes, I won't even notice. I'll be too busy looking good."

05-06-08 09:48 PM - Post#439490    

hi david,

your body is indeed an electrical machine. i was not making any connections to any sort of spiritual thoughts, one way or the other - if you were referring to a soul, etc. i am simply referring to the inner workings of the body. it is all electricity.

Re: Intermittent Fasting
05-06-08 10:03 PM - Post#439499    

fasting is not a part of how our body works. and our body works ALL THE TIME, even when we are sleeping.

most everyone talks about fasting, with regards to internal cleaning, detoxification, or whatever other term one wants to use.

and i am simply saying that if you treat the body in the way that it was made to be treated, there is no purpose to fast, except to be a detriment to its inner workings.

so instead of fixing a symptom, why not fix the problem ?

just because cavemen fasted for long times between kills, does not mean it is natural for the body to fast. it is just evidence that we sometimes are forced to do things, irregardless of whether it is good for us, cuz we just simply dont have a choice.

cavemen dying at early ages from starvation because they couldnt get enough to eat also occurred.

our cars are very unforgiving. if we put oil in the gas tank, it stops immediately. if we put gas in the radiator, it will stop. and if we put water in the oil container, it stops, or burns up.

our bodies are much more forgiving. we put sh*t in it all the time, and our bodies still function - just at much lower than optimal levels.

if you need to detox, then fix the problem - that of what you are putting into your body, in the first place.

this is what kills me about the medical community. we have all these drugs that do one thing or another. most of them work by eliminating the body's ability to make some enzyme, which works as a catalyst in a reaction, thereby eliminating the reaction for the most part.

but this simply masks the symptom. just like pain killers. pain is a wonderful thing most of the time. it is the body's way of telling us that we need to fix something. if we get rid of the pain without fixing the problem, the problem just gets worse, until it causes another problem, which once again triggers another pain signal to the brain.

pain killers are good if we are terminal, and fine if we are also fixing the problem, as an interim help. but at some point, we had better stop taking that pain killer, so that we can correctly evaluate our success at actually eliminating the problem.

so put very simply - treat your body as least as good as you treat your car. it is much more important. cars are easy to replace, bodies are not.

05-07-08 05:28 AM - Post#439560    

Foamroller, did you read the preceding six pages of information, any of the many linked pieces? If you're going to re-open a topic, I think it's best to at least catch up first. If you don't feel like reading it all, I think it would be better to start a new topic.

How in the world could the body be all electricity? Now that I think of if, how is anything other than the nervous system electrical? Nothing mechanical? How do your lungs work? Nothing chemical? It's just silly.

Everybody fasts between meals, it's just a matter of how long. Three hours, six hours, twenty hours, a week, whatever. Many people and scientists find benefits from fasting. It's not a settled subject but it is all up there.

The most important test a lifter has to pass is the test of time. -Jon Cole

05-07-08 06:48 AM - Post#439569    

• Yeti Said:

Me too, Alex. I follow a modification of The Zone (same foods but more protein), and for awhile I was anal about forcing myself to eat six times a day in accordance with the plan's "rules". When I started basing the number of meals (and calories), and consequently the spacing between meals, on the amount of exercise I do (i.e., more food & meals on workout days), everything clicked.

Be strong. Be in shape. Be a man among men, regardless of your age or circumstances.

Re: Intermittent Fasting
05-07-08 07:27 AM - Post#439572    

• FoamRoller Said:

This is not necessarily true. There were other foods available to them.

• FoamRoller Said:

May I inquire as to how you know this?

• FoamRoller Said:

We can agree on this.

05-07-08 09:53 AM - Post#439611    

Anthropologists have shown for years that man prior to the agricultural revolution:

1) Had a very short lifespan (mid 20's, typically)
2) Had zero population growth

Not a lifestyle to emulate.

"It is not an uncommon experience for people to talk and argue a great deal about something without anybody bothering to define precisely what it is." - Ross J.S. Hoffman I would like to see the truth clearly before it is too late. - Sartre We must begin by a definition, although definition involves a mental effort and therefore repels. - Hilaire Belloc

05-07-08 10:33 AM - Post#439627    

• Steve C Said:

This is an extremely cursory analysis. The population is growing faster in the "developing countries" - should the developed countries emulate them? The lifespan was short, but because there was no technology; agriculture gave mankind time to develop technology. They weren't dying young of type II diabetes and heart disease, they were dying because a broken ankle was a death sentence.

If you want to seriously consider whether pre-agricultural foods / diet were healthier than post-agricultural, you have to read Loren Cordain's work. I'm not saying it is settled beyond discussion, but you at least have to look at the whole picture.

The most important test a lifter has to pass is the test of time. -Jon Cole

05-07-08 10:36 AM - Post#439631    

• ccrow Said:

apparently, you did not take chemistry in college.

chemistry is the study of the interaction of ELECTRONS in atoms.

Re: Intermittent Fasting
05-07-08 10:53 AM - Post#439642    

• Stan Jaffin Said:

this brings up an interesting philosophical question regarding what we KNOW.

most of us know a lot less than we think we know, simply because we can not personally verify most of what we say we know.

having said that, since i was accepting the statement about cavemen and their ability to find kills, i was also accepting the statement that they died early from starvation.

both ideas are very widespread amongst those who study ancient man, as i have read both many times.

in fact, many of these said students have theorized that our current level of fat cells is directly related to this event, in that those cavemen who had too low of body fat were more in danger of dying from starvation than those who did not. i will simply say that it makes sense, and try to refrain from saying that i know it to be true.

05-07-08 11:01 AM - Post#439651    

• FoamRoller Said:

Apparently, you didn't take logic

The most important test a lifter has to pass is the test of time. -Jon Cole

05-07-08 11:08 AM - Post#439663    

logic is a study that is centered on what sorts of conclusions can be made from various assumptions.

Re: Intermittent Fasting
05-07-08 11:10 AM - Post#439666    

• FoamRoller Said:

I am wetting my pants here in anticipation of a discussion on Epistemology..... oh please, oh please....

"It is not an uncommon experience for people to talk and argue a great deal about something without anybody bothering to define precisely what it is." - Ross J.S. Hoffman I would like to see the truth clearly before it is too late. - Sartre We must begin by a definition, although definition involves a mental effort and therefore repels. - Hilaire Belloc

05-07-08 11:17 AM - Post#439674    

well, i cant say that know too much about epistemology. but this fact comes to us eventually, once we begin to see things more clearly - lol.

just ask yul brunner from the king and i - lol.

i thought that was a great scene, when he starts to realize that things he was taught to KNOW, were not necessarily correct. i cant begin to tell you about all the brainwashing that i have had to eliminate, and reclassify information as things i know to be true, to things i have been told are true.

05-07-08 11:19 AM - Post#439676    

• FoamRoller Said:

Oh trust me, I know...I played 'the King' in our school musical production of the King and I. Oh yeah, baby!

"It is not an uncommon experience for people to talk and argue a great deal about something without anybody bothering to define precisely what it is." - Ross J.S. Hoffman I would like to see the truth clearly before it is too late. - Sartre We must begin by a definition, although definition involves a mental effort and therefore repels. - Hilaire Belloc

Re: Intermittent Fasting
05-07-08 02:22 PM - Post#439801    

• Steve C Said:

Intermittent Fasting
05-07-08 05:47 PM - Post#439904    

• AAnnunz Said:

Bingo. I find that Zone-style meals work, but so does the occasional abstinence from food or too much animal food. Let hunger dictate, not habit. I don't necessarily think Paleo-style eating is well-suited for modern living (I enjoy carbs) but it doesn't hurt to abstain from food from time to time. For example, if you're sick, do you continue eating every 3 hours even though you have no appetite for food? No, you let the body rest.

If the escalating number of diabetic or overweight athletes isn't any indication of there being a potential problem with frequent eating, I don't know what is. I think many are just opposed to the idea of IF or anything that involves not eating every waking hour of the day because the popularity of six-meals-a-day provides a nice guise for an eating disorder.

I don't mean to be disdainful of eating frequently but rather I piss on the dogma that it's the best way to eat. There are plenty of eating styles that may work for some goals but aren't necessarily suited at all times ("oh no, it's three-o-clock; i gotta sneak off and eat my Zone bar"). Whether restricting calories and dividing it over evenly spaced meals best tickles your fancy, or skipping lunch and enjoying a hearty dinner floats your boat, there's no need to call the Spanish Inquisition to justify your habits.

"When [defeat] comes, I won't even notice. I'll be too busy looking good."

Edited by Yeti on 05-07-08 06:22 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

05-07-08 07:26 PM - Post#439942    

• In reply to:

Actually what isn't often pointed out is that is an average and the problem was the high infant mortality. If the average life expectency is 30 and 1/2 the kids die at 1 year then the other half live to be around 60. :)

Intermittent Fasting
05-07-08 10:14 PM - Post#439998    

The human body electrical?

Yes, and also chemical, physical and spiritual. There are some processes that can't be explained by electrical, chemical or physical means. Like the exchange of C02 for oxygen in our lungs. Or how we can obtain benefit from our foods. repairing and building tissue, when so much of our food is excreted.

There is just as much informed "opinion" out there that says fasting is neither especially harmful or beneficial, unless taken to extremes. You fast nearly eight hours when you sleep...where's the damage? You fast when ill (quite often) and the energy that was used for digestion is used for healing.

Absolutes seldom are.

Wicked

"I'm in good shape for the shape I'm in." "Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me." John 14:6

05-08-08 11:49 AM - Post#440175    

Ha good one WW

It don't matter

Re: Intermittent Fasting
05-08-08 08:59 PM - Post#440418    

• Wicked Willie Said:

we breathe out co2 and we breathe in oxygen. what is the mystery there ?

we simply break down the foods into their constituents, which our body, like most other animals on the planet have evolved to use.

so much of it is excreted ? well, i guess the amount that we dont need.

spiritual ? no proof one way or the other, despite what people want to think.

chemistry is simply the ELECTRICAL interaction of the atoms in our bodies.

sleep is something our bodies have been designed to do.

when people speak of fasting, they talk about it other than sleep, and almost always in the same breath with detoxification.

and i merely give you the best answer to a problem, which is dont create the problem in the first place, and then you wont have to worry about fixing it.

so in this case, that is the same as saying dont put crap in your body that it has to work at to get rid of.

05-09-08 04:00 PM - Post#440725    

• In reply to:

You know I think that is where you're going wrong. You think your opinion is the best answer. What you don't seem to realise is that everyone who has an opinion feels the same way.

Most of what we believe to be facts will someday turn out to be mere opinions. Some of the facts I learned growing up.

1. Dinosaurs are slow moving stupid animals. Not what they believe anymore.
2. Mars can't possibly have water on it.
3. People with heart disease shouldn't exercise.
4. The electron is the smallest particle of matter.
5. I wonder if all those people on the game shows have to give back all the money they won by saying that there are 9 planets in the solar system since Pluto is now longer a planet. :)

05-09-08 04:28 PM - Post#440741    

here is a little clue for you. if you want to quote someone, quote the full portion, so that you cant take things out of context.

and i merely give you the best answer to a problem, which is dont create the problem in the first place, and then you wont have to worry about fixing it.

i stand by that. dont create problems, and then you dont have to worry about fixing them.

however, i certainly agree with you, regarding FACTS. i have already stated this in my prior posts, if you read any of them.

05-09-08 04:59 PM - Post#440757    

How our bodies exchange CO2 and O is a simple and well understood process.

http://health.howstuffworks.com/lung.htm

The body is very electrical, and not just at the atomic level. Your thoughts are tiny electrical signals, the nerves that tell my fingers to type are fired via electrical impulses, etc. etc. etc.

http://www.celtoslavica.de/bibliothek/electricity .html

It is what it is, and we shor' 'nuff don't need to get riled up about it and start a fist fight over it!

Cliff

05-09-08 06:45 PM - Post#440782    

• FoamRoller Said:

With all due respect, your post is pretty arrogant. I applaud you for finding the best foods for your efforts, but what does that have to do with intermittent fasting? There are reasons one might fast, or simply delay eating, other than to detox or whatever. When I do it's a matter of convenience. Having a fast metabolism is a pain in the ass. Not everyone has the luxury or desire to eat every three hours or obsess about meal timing. In such cases intermittent fasting can be a viable protocol. There's no mysticism to it; you just compensate as necessary. Because fewer resources throughout the day are spent on digestion, most will find that their total caloric need will be smaller as well. Now I'm not saying it's the best protocol at all times, but it works.

"When [defeat] comes, I won't even notice. I'll be too busy looking good."

05-09-08 07:05 PM - Post#440785    

arrogant ? by stating not to create problems in the first place ?

that is just extremely simple advice.

arent we talking about IF being good for you ?

for yourself, you are presenting it as something you do to compensate, not because you think it is the best thing for you to do.

i dont obsess about meal timing at all. i simply eat when i am hungry.

but MOST TALK about fasting centers around detoxification. so a better solution is to try to find what one is doing that is creating said toxics, and then try to change so that one no longer introduces said toxics in their body.

sorta like being on a boat in the ocean, and water is starting to enter the boat. and people talking only about how to get rid of the water, and completely ignoring trying to fix the hole that is causing the leak.

in other words, problems are truly fixed only when they are attacked at their basis. otherwise, one is attacking only symptoms, which will continue to re-appear.

05-09-08 07:32 PM - Post#440789    

FoamRoller (do you have a name, by the way?), some of us enjoy the feeling of an occasional fast. It would be okay to let this go now that you've made your points.

05-09-08 08:28 PM - Post#440796    

• FoamRoller Said:

I pick up an arrogant tone by your assertion you know exactly what the body needs and that if everybody else was as enlightened they could avoid all potential problems. It's a bit of an oversimplification. It's certainly beneficial to find what works, but you can eat the most healthy foods in the world and be in poor health from other factors, like inactivity.

The only compensation on my part is number of calories. I like to earn my meals because I've noticed more favorable effects on body compositioning. If I'm not hungry in the morning I don't eat...that may constitute a fast, but I don't see it as depriving the body. The body can run on stored fuel quite well.

Anyway, sorry if I've attacked your character, but I'm not the only one who's picked up the condescending sentiment. Peace.

"When [defeat] comes, I won't even notice. I'll be too busy looking good."

05-10-08 12:25 AM - Post#440844    

Many people are like vampires - they have a hard time seeing themselves in the mirror.

05-10-08 12:48 AM - Post#440845    

hi yeti,

i would not want to say that i know everything about anything.

i was not attempting to assert that i was somehow enlightened.

i will say that i put a lot of effort into my health, and therefore feel i have a lot to offer, in terms of experience.

but i continue to learn things all the time. this past 2 years, i have learned several things regarding various exercises. the foam rolling is extremely new, and i am having absolutely marvelous success with it.

i dont think my body is unique, because in my experience with helping people, they seem to have similar types of experiences that i do.

so do i think that foam rolling would help others ? you betcha, i do. and it is CHEAP, to boot.

and certainly our health has more to do than just what we eat. but this thread was on fasting, so i was giving my opinions on it. never did i mean to imply that food was the only aspect of our health.

if you knew how much i exercised, you would certainly realize that i must see it as highly important.

i do believe i have pretty good ideas as to what our bodies need, in order to attain health.

first, in spite of some differences, we all have evolved from the same biology as every other animal on the planet. we basically all have the same reactions occur in our body. by that, i mean that we both make a certain protein in the same way. our dna tells us how to make all the various nutrients in our body.

so, we are similar a thousand times more than we are different. so the idea is to attempt to understand how we work, and then give our bodies the opportunity for it to work the way it wants to. food, exercise, sleep, stress, etc. all play a part in our overall health.

so the key is to determine to the best of our ability just what our body is asking of us. while i may feel more informed than the average person in this regard, i will never get to optimal - that is just a goal, or a direction, in which i try to point myself.

instead of arrogant, i think opinionated would be much more accurate, if we are talking about the topic of health - cuz it is important to me, and i have put forth a lot of effort.

knowing that, if i wasnt somewhat opinionated, then i must be awfully stupid to have that much time invested, and not know much - lol.

peace to you, as well.