I mentioned him on a post a few months ago; talking about ankle and knee mobility.

Absolute game changer of all game changers. The guy has changed my life. I’m pushing 40 and my body shouldn’t be able to work this way.

In terms of physical training, Dan John, Pavel, Rippetoe, and this guy...those are the only thinkers/coaches who’ve truly made a lasting impact on my life in the last 25 years.

I mentioned him on a post a few months ago; talking about ankle and knee mobility.

Absolute game changer of all game changers. The guy has changed my life. I’m pushing 40 and my body shouldn’t be able to work this way.

In terms of physical training, Dan John, Pavel, Rippetoe, and this guy...those are the only thinkers/coaches who’ve truly made a lasting impact on my life in the last 25 years.

Even more than Tim Anderson?

Jordan, how is the knee?

I think he's on to it. I'm doing split squats as a warm-up.

They key for me was getting my hamstrings to work properly as knee extension muscles. He seems to start further along than what I could have handled when my knees were at their worst, but maybe the full program is different.

No sweat!

I did the Zero program last year, as a supplement to my normal lifting routine. Ever since, the ATG split squats have been in my warmups and I do the stretching on my off days. I don’t know about 12 weeks (I took it slow and easy), but after 8 months or so now, yeah, palms on the floor (cold in the morning) and I can do splits for the first time in my life.

The split squats are, bar none, far and away, the only hip flexor stretch worth doing. Huge, huge eye opener.

Please post a link to the program you are referring to or give the search name. I found several different programs with a Zero Program search.

$50 a month? DJU is like less than ten.

I have to rethink things.

$50 a month? DJU is like less than ten.

I have to rethink things.

Should an average person’s knees have the range of motion he demonstrates in that lunge of his?

Squatting on toes.

This is what we used to do. Remember, you can't really load up this exercise excessively. (Note: yes, an idiot can prove me wrong...3-2-1 Go!).

This is what Callum and most of the early books I read recommended. I used to do these just like I saw in the book, bodybuilding and self-defense, and the soreness was real.

Everything old is new again.

Can someone give me the 25cent tour of why I should get into this?

Squatting on toes.

This is what we used to do. Remember, you can't really load up this exercise excessively. (Note: yes, an idiot can prove me wrong...3-2-1 Go!).

This is what Callum and most of the early books I read recommended. I used to do these just like I saw in the book, bodybuilding and self-defense, and the soreness was real.

Everything old is new again.

Can someone give me the 25cent tour of why I should get into this?

To me the value is in the way it all fits together as a system. Taking it piecemeal might provide some neat exercises, but I think it's everything combined in the right progression that makes the magic happen.

Thank you all. I am getting ready to lift in an O meet again (May 15) and I am looking on the other side to see what I might play around with next. I will say this: of all the programs I have done ES4FatLoss with O lifting is like magic.

My broad impression, after 3-4 days playing around and watching and practicing his vids, is that the thesis boils down to this:

If you use all the muscles in your legs and hips, with gradually increasing ROM, for 3 months, then good stuff happens.

It also doesn't seem to conflict much with what most people do in the gym. It does a bit with my running hobby - my lower legs are a bit overloaded right now - but I read the program and just knew right away that this was stuff I should have been paying attention to for the last few decades but haven't.

If you use all the muscles in your legs and hips, with gradually increasing ROM, for 3 months, then good stuff happens.

where did you find "the program" to read?

Interesting interview on Mark Bells podcast/youtube podcast with knees guy

Some interesting points, tips and seems to give lots of stuff away and he doesnt really claim to invent anything either, he just made self discoveries and seems decent enough.

Podcast

• Chris Rice Said:

I signed up and paid. Then you get a link to a long HTML page explaining the ten or so exercises, and a video on each. He calls it the "Knee Ability Zero Picture Book". At the bottom he sums up the 10 exercises. It's a little unclear on programming - do you start with all 10, or master the first 3-4 before progressing? - but it's clear that you're supposed to do 3x per week (e.g. Mon/Wed/Fri).

• Old Miler Said:

He calls it ROKP (Reverse Out of Knee Pain). It's the warmup for the Zero Program. It can be done unloaded or with chains, a sled etc.

"Coyote is always waiting, and Coyote is always hungry."

I figure whatever he has his Mom doing will be good enough for me.

Have a slant board ready to go, the Tib raise bar is en route from Australia and Rogue says they will build me a Nordic bench.

When you walk backwards your quads are contracted under load.

It’s like a leg extension, most failed to understand that the most important part of that movement (and safest) is the full load at contraction.

A good leg extension has the back rest angled back so that the is no interference from the hamstring.

I’ve fixed a lot of knees with and quite quickly

When you walk backwards your quads are contracted under load.

It’s like a leg extension, most failed to understand that the most important part of that movement (and safest) is the full load at contraction.

A good leg extension has the back rest angled back so that the is no interference from the hamstring.

I’ve fixed a lot of knees with and quite quickly

I did a lot of leg extension in my youth and never had the knee problems I saw a lot of people get. I have also used leg extension a couple of times as an adult to rehab kneecap/quad tendon type pain. I work out at home now and the exercises he recommends have worked surprisingly well in doing what my knees need. I probably could have stumbled on this on my own, but haven't, yay me! If a month's subscription shows me on how to get a leg extension effect without a leg extension machine and treat my knees better, it's worth it even if it is a fad.

My dad snapped both quad tendons in his 40's and 50's. I do not know for sure if that's a him thing, a genetic thing, or some combination. Anyway, I am not interested in that for sure!

My dad snapped both quad tendons in his 40's and 50's.

I walk about 1.25 miles backward most days. The area I walk has gentle hills. When I go down hill the top of my calves are emphasized when I go up hill the front of my legs just above the knee are emphasized. It seems so well balanced and it certainly is helping my one hurt knee. Ben's stuff really is good for my problem knee.

• Andy Mitchell Said:

In Bill Starr's "The Strongest Shall Survive" the leg curl and leg extension are two key movements and are generally performed every workout for two or three high rep sets.

• DanMartin Said:

Machines are fine but their only justification is doing things you can’t do with conventional equipment or greatly improving safety.

• Andy Mitchell Said:

I like machines. If I could do a machine only routine it wouldn't bother me in the least. That said, I would still do Farmer's walk.

You get feedback if you send in videos. That's a nice value for the subscription.

To add to the chorus of backwards love, I have been traveling and haven't had much space. So I skipped the backwards walk warmup and one of my knees did not like the rest of the work.

I remembered an old(er)-time photo and I thought it was Bednarski, but it may have been Schemansky (maybe in Dreschler's book?). Anyway, I found this one of Schemansky and it certainly has the ATG/knees-over style lunge. As Dan said, what's old is new.

https://liftingtimes.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/201 7/04/Figure-1.png

As Dan said, what's old is new.

https://liftingtimes.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/201 7/04/Figure-1.png

Best,
Mark

To be fair Ben Patrick (#kneesovertoesguy) did point out that the hangup about not letting knees go forwards over the toes is a recent phenomenon...

• Old Miler Said:

I can't find a full reprint of the much-maligned Duke study from 1978 that started the vertical knees trend, but here's the abstract: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/10671315.1978.10615522?needAccess=true

I'm pretty sure Patrick learned about this from Charles Poliquin, who referenced it in a few articles. Here's an example: http://main.poliquingroup.com/ArticlesMultimedia/Ar ticles/Article/1476/Knees _Past_the_Toes__Seriousl...

The Kstar mobility wod squat always looked... well honestly it always looked pretty stupid to me. The feet forward knees WAY out sit back thing, I dunno.

• ledfistaco Said:

The backward walk/drag may be the most important part of the workout.

I have been following Ben's work for sometime now. The age of Covid lends itself to a lot of deep diving on the KOT YouTube.

All of the information concerning the three levels of performance are there. You have to sort through a lot of videos, but, I repeat, it is all there.

The difference between just looking at the video's and actually subscribing is coaching and feedback, which is a huge difference.

All of that to say this, the "Big 3" of KOT is:

The Tibialis raise, the ATG split squat and walking backwards.

Just like the DMPM, you can go a long time mining the gold from those three aforementioned movements.

How would I program those three movements? The backwards walking is a good way to start your "warm-ups" then move towards a few split squats and finish with the leaning against a wall tibialis raise.

Like anything physical, there are no short cuts and there is a certain amount of time needed to see tangible results. YMMV

A lot of this thread reads like what Dan John talks about with people who ask if they can do the One Lift A Day program but add bench press on Tuesdays and Thursdays and bicep curls on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. Yes, you can, but that's not the One Lift A Day program.

Or like all the people who "improve" the 10,000 swings challenge without ever having done 10,000 swings-- ever.

All of which is to say that Dan Martin and Jordan D are undoubtedly correct in the sense of picking out the key elements of the program, but if you have knee problems and want to see if the KOT program might help you, you should really do the program as written. It's built as a system, and for those of us with damaged knees, the slow, detailed progressions are really important.

Jordan D, this guy should be giving you a referral fee.

Not trying to work out too many specifics, but are any of his deep split squats performed in an isometric fashion (holding the bottom position)?

I ask as the long duration ISO lunge is something I quite like, but this usually stops with front thigh parallel.

Richard

• Ricky01 Said:

He says to hold the bottom position for 3 seconds. It’s insanely effective. Makes all other hip flexor stretches virtually useless, and has added some really nice hypertrophy to my quads.

In fact, I just got done with 5 x 5 of these half an hour ago. Used 40lb dumbbells. 8 months ago I couldn’t do bodyweight on two aerobic steps without holding on to something for balance. The overall benefits have been tremendous, and that 3s pause is crucial. My lower body just all around WORKS better now.

He was selling or promoting a strap that you could use on a regular bench to hold your legs down while doing Nordics.

This may have been the one.

https://www.amazon.com/Slant-Board-Guy-Nordi c-Hamstring/dp/B08HR9JXVP

Do the cognoscenti come out of these by pushing "back" with hips in the first instance, or "up"? Seems to make a big difference, as it does with a normal squat.

• Old Miler Said:

When it’s heavy or late in a tiring set, I’m pushing back. On the crisp reps, it’s up. The best benefits, I suspect, come from keeping the reps crisp and fresh. Practice, not grinding. It all seems to be about getting the body to work correctly before adding resistance.

Despite Dan’s aversion to lunges, I think he might get behind these. They’re a different animal. Their relationship to the barbell squat is more like the relationship between 1-arm DB bench presses and the barbell bench. It illuminates weak points in the oddest places.

Whoa, whoa, whoa...to be clear the ATG split squat is not, repeat not a lunge.

Don't tell Dan... "Coach, it's the lunges this year!!!" ;)

Hi all. I ran this for two weeks on top of too much running - quads already sore, the extra eccentrics made me even sorer. Rested a week and restarted reasonably and it's...reasonable!

They suggest spending Tuesday and Thursday on an upper body program:
- 50 band pullouts
- 3x10 ring pushups alternating 3x10 ring/TRX rows
- 50 more band pullouts
- HALF AN HOUR of timed stretches lasting 1-2min each for everything in the lower body

So for once in my life I actually stretched for the amount of time the physios have always told me to. I am pretty sure this is part of the secret sauce.

I found out that my deadlifting barbell works perfectly for nordic curls. With a bit of extra mat or cushion under the feet, and trainers on, my heels end up hooked under a 100kg bar that doesn't move. It's way easier to slide heels under it lying on the floor than to strap yourself down to a bench.

• Old Miler Said:

Pool noodles make great padding for the bar

Worth it to get a tib bar? I have resisted. How much better than just doing the toe raises standing against wall?

• Roger Clarvin Said:

I have been doing the KOT and am interested in somehow loading the thib through a greater ROM than the toe raises. Seems like the tib bar or a diy version would be useful.

Worth it to get a tib bar? I have resisted. How much better than just doing the toe raises standing against wall?

I made a tib bar with some iron pipe and a pool noodle. Similar in concept to a t-handle for swings.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/S5BkaQNnuRnqQQFC6

I also made a ramp for kot squats and jefferson lifts.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Pcq5oFQwaJ9dfoQr8

You may have learned about Monkey feet from KOT guy but I found this ad from a 1941 issue of Strength and Health. Monkey feet right there!

Try this Bulletproofing Mark Bell's Knees video. Tib bar starts at 1:16.

• Steve Rogers Said:

That video is absolute gold.

That point about using the tibialis to pull you into ankle flexion was a huge epiphany for me. Knee pain just vanished immediately. Like a light switch.

• ledfistaco Said:

KOT guy doesn't claim to have invented any of this, but he has put it together in easy to access form.

Yep, I wasn't saying he claims authorship.
He is remarkably open with sharing his info. One really can do most of his programs/ideas just from his youtube videos.

• Steve Rogers Said:

This worked so well that I stopped doing it. Now at 7 weeks out from my left total knee replacement I think it's time to revisit it for the next chapter of my rehabilitation. How are others doing with it?

I'll be back at for 6 weeks next month.