10-01-08 06:20 PM - Post#487756    

I have not done chins for some time now. First as I have gotten bigger they have become harder. I have also had a injured shoulder to work around. Vince was adamant in that if you could not pull up until your chest hit the bar the movement produced nothing but strain and was useless. He did not believe in behind the neck chins. He did advocate close grip chinning and pulling up until your mid chest was even with the end of the bar meaning no draping a handle over the middle area of the chin bar and chinning until your nose touches. The gym I joined recently has a chinning bar where you can put a close grip handle near the end of the chin bar. Going to try this tomorrow. Most are familiar with those assisted chin contraptions. Vince had a strap with two large loops that you stepped in to and this was hooked to a weight stack, you could chin as he advocated. How many of you can chin so your mid chest approaches the bar and don't you think the close grip version hits the upper lats just as good?

10-01-08 06:50 PM - Post#487765    

Can pull to chest, but typically just get the chin over the bar... Love to superset wides with closed. Do the wides first. Then, if you can't get many with closed, it's also nice to superset with closed pulldowns.

Have Bucket. Will Travel... R.I.P. Kris. "If you train hard, you'll not only be hard, you'll be hard to beat."

10-01-08 07:04 PM - Post#487769    

I just pull to the point were my upper arms are in line or more then my torso.
Done with a towel is good along with hands parallel also good.
Full rom is crucial; all the up all the way down.
Add a rowing movement also for a strong healthy back and shoulder.

Nice legs-shame about the face

10-01-08 09:44 PM - Post#487811    

• Andy Mitchell Said:

Sage advice.

"When [defeat] comes, I won't even notice. I'll be too busy looking good."

10-02-08 07:21 AM - Post#487856    

A lot of people learn to chin without pulling the shoulders back and sticking the chest up. This is how most people will get the most reps - just doing the bare minimum to get the chin over the bar. The way most people count reps, it just matters if you get your chin over the bar - no extra points for getting the collarbones or sternum to the bar.

This barely - over style basically trains the lats without training the scapular retractors. That is, it builds the ability to move the arms without moving the shoulderblades. Over time, that is not good for the shoulders. But, it will build a big set of lats. Which will be a small consolation when / if your shoulders finally quit.

The most important test a lifter has to pass is the test of time. -Jon Cole

10-02-08 01:46 PM - Post#488028    

I did some close grip chins (parallel handles) and could not get up as high as Vince advocated. To make up for the lack of reps as well I ss them with wide grip pulldowns. Felt good.

10-02-08 03:34 PM - Post#488099    

• ccrow Said:

That was how I learned chins, and later on when one of my shoulders went south, I blamed it on the benching. Stopped the benching, kept up with the lousy chins. Never occurred to me it was the chins a few years ago reading that here in the forum.

Vince and Chins
10-02-08 08:04 PM - Post#488246    

Some of the advantages of pulldowns are:

1. Being able to position your torso exactly as you desire,
2. Not being locked into a specific bar/body path, and
3. Using less than bodyweight when necessary.

If you build your own equipment there is also the ability to find an exact grip width and degree of pronation/supination for each exercise. Over the years this will prove very tendon-friendly.

10-02-08 08:08 PM - Post#488248    

Close grip V-handle rolling back as you go up to touch the lower chest to the bar.

It don't matter

10-02-08 09:24 PM - Post#488267    

Doesn't hand position and ROM depend on what you are trying to accomplish, that is the muscle group you are trying to target?

I do chins every day I workout.

On arms day I do weighted chins and use a shoulder width supinated grip. I occasionally mix it up with a pronated grip. I go to about level with my adam's apple. I find this gives a great full ROM workout for the bi's and brach.

On my legs day I do unweighted but vary the grip from narrow v grip, to medium pronated and to wide pronated. I use full ROM.

On back day I do weighted chins again(5 pounds more than on arms day). My first rep goes from straight arms at the bottom but I only return my arms to half extension (90 degree bend) before pulling up again. So I'm repeatedly pulling my elbows as far down and back as I can and getting my chest as high as I can. I find this hits my back much harder and I can do it with more weight than if I do full ROMs. Seeing as I'm wanting to work the back more on these particular days and the back is such a large muscle group I figure being able to use more weight is a good thing.

So, just like other exercises, shouldn't we vary the grips and ROM depending on what we want the exercise to do for us?

cheers

Luke

Braken Wear Enter gym, lift weights, feel good, go home. What more is there to say? D.Draper Log Progress Pics Dead lift PR 506lb (Video)

10-02-08 09:26 PM - Post#488268    

I like finish with some shrugs hanging from the bar, something I picked up from dave maurice

Nice legs-shame about the face

10-02-08 09:33 PM - Post#488270    

I feel Byron answers that question pretty well Griff.

Nice legs-shame about the face

10-03-08 09:43 PM - Post#488592    

• ccrow Said:

Nice post. I have learned to do this over time. I do not pull my chin to the bar, I pull the bar to my chest. If you think of it as a row instead of a vertical pull, it helps. Also bringing your hips and knees out front instead of curling your feet back and consciously pulling your head back (ie. leaning back) seems to help me distribute your center of gravity for pulling to the chest instead of the neck. You should be leaning back slightly instead of being perfectly upright. Kelso style hanging shrugs can help reinforce/learn the concept of scapular retraction (basically a chin with no arms, just using the shoulder blades to pull yourself up a couple inches).

I quit doing weighted wide grips after I realized what a beating my shoulders took from them.

My Training Log

10-04-08 11:43 PM - Post#488813    

I have read that it is a myth that using a wide grip is better for building width but I disagree-I feel more stimulation in the upper/outer lats with a wide grip. I can't get up as high with the wider grip but still get stimulation and growth so I disagree with anyone saying you won't get results if you don't get your chest up to the bar. I also do chins with an underhand(supinated?)and narrower grip(maybe about a foot distance between my hands)and find I can go up much higher that way. I find it almost impossible to get very high when using a wide overhand(pronated grip). I also find that a narrower than shoulder width grip works better with underhand chins-too wide hurts the wrists and can't get up as high. Also good tip from BC about letting the body get more horizontal if you want to get up higher.

10-05-08 12:20 PM - Post#488845    

It is a myth that a wide grip is automatically the best thing for width and stretch. What is sometimes mislabeled as stimulation is actual stress from the attachments being placed in a mechanically inefficient positioning. Whether or not this stress is beneficial or harmful is a function of individual structures...some may benefit, many more will not. From a shoulder health and longevity standpoint, wide grips are a disaster waiting to happen.

Wide grip benches certainly provide for a feeling of extreme stretch but an analysis of the movement shows that the pectoral muscle doesn't move through as great of a range of motion with a wide grip...this comes from using a relatively narrow grip. Same with chins or pull ups or dips.

Your post has some truth in it...but that truth comes with a price tag. Purchase wisely.

Wicked

"I'm in good shape for the shape I'm in." "Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me." John 14:6

10-05-08 04:28 PM - Post#488874    

Wicked, I have read so many different things relating to the width of grip on pullups/pulldowns that I don't know what is right anymore. I know Stuart McRobert and others advise against them for shoulder safety reasons but I was once looking at the Dragondoor forum and most of the people were opposed to wide grip pullups because of shoulder injury risk but Pavel made a post and said:"nothing wrong with wide grips,just suck your shoulders into the sockets when you start pulling". Some say underhand chinups are better than pullups because of better leverage and range of motion-others say they work the biceps more and lats less-which is right? Another question: I find that underhand chinning is uncomfortable on the wrists if my hands are not inside shoulder width-can that narrow of a grip effectively the upper/outer lats most responsible for width? (I find them more comfortable on my shoulder than wide grip overhand but limit the use because of belief that they are working biceps and lower lats more than upper back width.) Thanks for the input.

10-05-08 05:39 PM - Post#488893    

Re the wide grip - Pavel's suggestion may or may not be helpful, but without a doubt, there is more strain in the wide position.

Re the wide grip underhand - it isn't really a natural position for the wrists unless the bar is v-shaped. These used to be pretty easy to find, the old Universal gyms had a v bar on them, but now, it's just about impossible to find. Widening the grip does not have the same effect with an undergrip anyway; the extra strain in the armpit area doesn't really happen like it does with the overhand grip. Your elbows are still out in front of you with the under grip. I wouldn't go wider than feels right with the underhand grip, it is pointless.

With an underhand grip, the biceps are in a better position, but so are the lats; I think for most people it is the better exercise.

The most important test a lifter has to pass is the test of time. -Jon Cole

Vince and Chins
10-05-08 09:13 PM - Post#488960    

• Armand Said:

That is true...there is a lot of information "out there" and a lot of it is conflicting. Stuart is sometimes overly cautious but I can't fault his reasoning. Just because a movement doesn't currently hurt you, doesn't mean that it can't be accumulating damage....

• Quoting:

Sometimes, even highly regarded and published individuals make stupid statements. This one is so irresponsible that I'm amazed. Did Pavel say exactly "how" to do this? Of course he didn't...that would take an unusual amount of mental and muscular control...not something that many trainees have even after years of training. The only thing that "sucked" in this case was the advice.

• Quoting:

They are both right...to a point. If the idea is to work in a more "natural" manner with less strain to the shoulders and attachments, undergrip chins are better. They also tend to make it easier to use the biceps and lessen the contribution of the lats...again, this is how your body works naturally.

• Quoting:

Whether or not you can actually defeat the way muscles work together to "isolate" or "emphasize" one area over another is a hotly contested idea...but this I know for sure - given free movement that doesn't cause pain...your muscles will find the most efficient way of working together and accomplishing a task. (The "whole" muscle works or it doesn't work at all. Try to stretch just one section of a rubber band...can't be done, unless you artificially introduce an anchor point.) Defeating this tendency through mechanically inefficient positioning can be done...at a price. Often, the bill doesn't come due until many, many miles down the road.

Do a set or two of bent arm pullovers before you do undergrip chins...I'm sure that you'll find a new DOMS when you awake the following morning. (This will "pre-exhaust the lats a bit so that the biceps involvement will push the intensity up for the already tired lats.)

This is just my opinion...and worth exactly what you paid for it...but I'd like to think that I've been around the block a time or two.

Wicked

"I'm in good shape for the shape I'm in." "Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me." John 14:6

Re: Vince and Chins
10-06-08 12:21 AM - Post#489004    

Thanks for your insights. You are right about qalified people sometimes saying wrong things. I remember reading in Arnold's Enclopedia that you take a very wide grip for upper/outer lat width and only recently thumbed through a Mucsle & Fitness in the supermarket and some guy with a long list of abbreviations after his name said the same thing. It's funny because while some say Stuart is overcautious in his exercise reccomendations I do see his point especially as I get older yet Vince is totally the opposite end of the spectrum. I know Vince is highly regarded but it seems to me that many of his exercise recomendations are downright dangerous recipes for injury: wide grip bench press with elbows flared, bench press to neck, super wide grip dips with knuckles facing, sissy squats,etc. I would also like to ask if as Byron pointed out when doing underhand chins since your elbows are in front of you as opposed to at your sides as with pronated grip-can that mean less lat recrutrment? And I am still curious whether there is any difference in lat recruitment when doing a pronated overhand grip on a straight bar versus a bar that slants downward toward the ends(like most lat bars).

Re: Vince and Chins
10-06-08 05:19 AM - Post#489018    

• Armand Said:

The bars with the slanted ends are to reduce the stress on the wrist while doing wide grip pull ups.
Personally I prefer shoulder width pulls with combinations of grip, pronated, supine and combined.

Also I think I could sit and bounce questions off the wicked one for hours. A well of information and opinions.

"For sure, grit and spit will get you so far but it will also grind you down and leave you spent. Good movement, superior movement, that is where grace and power live." My 2011 Training Log

Vince and Chins
10-06-08 08:18 AM - Post#489054    

This is an interesting discussion with a few points worth emphasizing:

• Armand Said:

Both and neither. Underhand chins use more biceps enabling more reps/weight, something that further works the lats. Also, this grip tends to keep the elbows in, something that also further engages the lats. Ccrow's summation is spot on.

Stuart McRobert is one of the most injury-prone writers I know of. He is against bent rows, an effective exercise favored by both Dave Draper and Mark Rippetoe. My personal experience easily supports the latter persons.

• Armand Said:

They are and the list of injured included Vince. Often the difference between poison and food is the dosage. There was a reason Vince often changed exercises.

• Wicked Willie Said:

This is often the best way to work them, and it will differ somewhat from person to person. "Odd" movements are often directed at shaping, and therein is the trouble's cause.

Re: Vince and Chins
10-06-08 09:50 AM - Post#489115    

• Stan Jaffin Said:

Stan:
I just had a thought which I hadn't ever before. Maybe...just maybe Stuart is more injury prone because he actually works out. You can't get injured if you don't work out and you certainly won't know what movements are potentially dangerous. There are, after all, a fair amount of "armchair authors" out there...even more so now, with the easy ability to post on the Internet.

I agree...Stuart does seem cautious in the extreme but I think his motivation is pure. He simply doesn't want to see people injure themselves. I have gradually come around to agreeing with more of his cautions...cautiously.

Wicked

"I'm in good shape for the shape I'm in." "Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me." John 14:6

Re: Vince and Chins
10-06-08 10:54 AM - Post#489138    

I don't know that he presently does or does not work out. His picture on the back of my copy of Beyond Brawn is that of someone without noticeable muscle. His claims of injuries involve squats, shrugbar deadlifts, and other lifts. And his claims of future injuries involve bent rows. At one time he apparently did work out.

As an equestrian I occasionally get non-credit lectures on how easily it is to be injured while jumping, cantering downhill on rocky terrain, cross country touring for a week, and so on. The lecturer usually cites all kinds of accident reports and hearsay. Not one of these "experts" ever mentions personal experience. When pressed for the date/time of their last ride, they use said verbiage as excuses for avoiding a "dangerous" activity. Having been up to 18 hands above the ground on misbehaving horses, I can well appreciate the need for caution--sensible and measured caution that does NOT involve generally fearing a worthwhile activity.

Oddly enough, I also get the same type of non-credit lectures about lifting. Not oddly enough, the lifting experts spend about as much time in the gym as the above equestrian experts spend in the saddle.

I am not in anyway impugning Stuart's motivations or purposes. He may well be trying to help others avoid his mistakes. For whatever reason there seems to be a few too many mistakes and maybe the wrong lessons having been learned from them.

Any activity can become dangerous. Anything Stuart or anyone else can do to reduce mishaps in the gym is a giant step in the right direction. Instilling a fear of exercise is not much of a step at all.

10-06-08 11:09 AM - Post#489143    

I didn't know (or had forgotten) that you were a rider, Stan. You jumpers and eventers are fearless...I've watched a wreck or two close up. (One involving my bride...though only from an animal that was 14.3 hands.)

When comparing the portrait on the back of Beyond Brawn and the rare photographs from Hardgainer that showed Stuart just after his 20 reps with 400 deadlift...quite a physical transformation had taken place. (Unlike myself...still looking like I haven't seen a hard workout in my life.)

I've read another author (whose name escapes me at the moment) that claimed excessive fear of injury when lifting actually sets you up for injury...kind of a "self-fulfilling" prophecy. I can see the validity of that contention.

I try for the middle ground...careful to try to maintain good form and appropriate weight...but not fearful of the occasional foray into the Voodoo Zone. I can't be too fearful...I ride a motorcycle full time....

Wicked

"I'm in good shape for the shape I'm in." "Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me." John 14:6

Vince and Chins
10-06-08 11:17 AM - Post#489147    

I jump on occasion though I am not an eventing competitor. While not completely fearless I am careful and (most of the time) avoid stupid stunts involving hard ground and this formula:

Force = Mass x Acceleration

So far I have stayed in the saddle inspite of the occasional propensity to push my luck. And yes, on the trail and in the gym, obsessing about failure is a good way to bring it on.

10-06-08 11:31 AM - Post#489152    

• Wicked Willie Said:

This is telling. Whatever Stuart knew about safe form, he obviously missed the boat when it came to the relationship between fatigue and stabilization. Nobody's perfect

The most important test a lifter has to pass is the test of time. -Jon Cole

10-06-08 03:30 PM - Post#489259    

In hindsight, Stuart admitted that he had made numerous mistakes. He wasn't fully recovered from a previous deadlift session, he lost form as fatigue set in, he wanted to obtain his goal date despite rational obstacles and he had a videotape crew there that he had secured. He ended up stiff legging a lot of the reps and rounding his back. The injury didn't make itself felt immediately...it took a while.

Despite that...I don't remember him labeling the deadlift as dangerous, in the same manner he did the press behind neck, bent over barbell rowing and upright rows.

Wicked

"I'm in good shape for the shape I'm in." "Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me." John 14:6

10-06-08 03:55 PM - Post#489263    

Maybe it's just me, but it sounds like attempting 20 reps on the deadlift with any significant weight would be more dangerous than a properly performed bent-over row (for example a Pendlay style row) for say 5-10 reps. I agree that upright rows should probably be avoided and many people lack the flexbility to do BTN presses safely. But a proper BOR sounds very safe and effective to me, and many great lifters and coaches (Draper, Coan, Pendlay, Rippetoe just to name a few) strongly recommend them.

My Training Log

10-06-08 04:21 PM - Post#489273    

That is what I was getting at, if you do it for 20 reps, the deadlift is going to mess you up sooner or later. There may be a form that is very safe for an individual rep, but 20 reps, pushed hard - eventually fatigue is going to wobble the lower back and you're discs are going to protest.

The most important test a lifter has to pass is the test of time. -Jon Cole

10-06-08 10:03 PM - Post#489393    

I appreciate all the info from everyone regarding chins/pullups. I've always done wide grip pullups with no problems but have recently been suffering a pain in the right shoulder when I extend my arm straight above my head-hurts worse when hanging from overhead bar with arms straight. I never made the connection that the wide pullups caused this because I never felt the pain during the pullups. Now I am wondering. Maybe now at 50 my body is not tolerating them as it once did? I will point out that I don't feel the pain (impingement?) when I do underhand chins or hang underhanded. My policy was always to do mostly wide grip overhand pullups because building width was my first priority(and most of what I read said wide grip woul accomplish this). I would only throw in some underhand chins for the last set so I could get a few more reps. I steered away from them in the perhaps mistaken belief they would not build upper back width and because my biceps were always too big proportionately to my forearms and chest/shoulders. I now am re-evaluating. It seems the consensus here is that the underhand chins are not only safer but also more effective. It does make me wonder why overhand pullups have been apparently so much more promoted and popular.

10-08-08 01:44 PM - Post#489978    

Wide grip chins have been promoted because they tend work the lats more for most people, but at the risk of problems. Overhand chins are good, but a medium grip, and pulling to sternum, head back, contracting the entire back muscles. Like Byron says, not just doing them to get the chin over the bar, but pulling the torso to the bar. You may not be able to do it, but it's a goal to shoot for. Mix it up with underhand chins as you like. Just my 2 cents.

What we've got here is... failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach.

10-08-08 11:29 PM - Post#490153    

I still don't understand why only going to chin and not to sternum is bad for shoulders?

I would think the most pressure on the shoulder would be in the initial phase when breaking from straight arms at the bottom, not towards the top of the movement?

The difference between chin and sternum is only a few inches after all...

Luke

Braken Wear Enter gym, lift weights, feel good, go home. What more is there to say? D.Draper Log Progress Pics Dead lift PR 506lb (Video)

Vince and Chins
10-09-08 12:48 AM - Post#490170    

Scapula movement is integral to maintaining shoulder strength
With rowing you have adduction.
Chinning through the fullest range creates scapula inward rotation.
I reckon it is equally important to control scapula movement at the bottom as this also another area were shoulders are exposed to problems.

Nice legs-shame about the face

10-09-08 03:45 AM - Post#490176    

• Griffo Said:

The way I see it... the difference isn't the height of the pull-up/chin-up, but the mechanics of the movement. It's the difference between simply pulling ith the lats/arms and pulling backwards with the entire shoulder girdle. Pulling to the chin/neck with the body vertical isloates the lats/arms. Pulling to the chest and emphasizing on squeezing the shoulder blades together changes the mechanics of the movement allowing you to engage more muscle groups at the top of the movement and thus strengthen the entire shoulder girdle instead of just the lats or arms.

Try this:

Put your hands in pull-up position and pretend the bar is right at your chin. Note the position of the shoulder blades (use a mirror)--they are drawn forward. Now move your hands down to the chest level, pulling the imaginary bar as close to the chest as possible. Now look the position of the shoulder blades--they should be retracted and you should feel the "squeeze" at the upper back. The extra few inches of movement effectively engages additional muscles. The main cause of shoulder problems is too much internal rotation and too much scapular protraction. When the muscles involved in retraction/external rotation become weak relative to their antagonists, it sets the body up for injury. Making an effort to put to retract the shoulders in the chin-up helps to prevent this imbalance by putting the shoulders in a more neutral position while engaging and strengthening the important shoulder girdle and upper back muscles that most people neglect.

My Training Log

10-10-08 12:14 AM - Post#490542    

Often, it's the little stuff that makes all the difference.

What we've got here is... failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach.