11-03-04 02:55 PM - Post#50395    

While I generally don't care for the term 'hard gainer' -- because it is often applied too broadly -- there are definitely trainees who benefit from the 'less is more' concept. Here are several routines I have used with athletes (mainly football players) who needed to gain strength and size to take full advantage of their sports skills (what we simply used to call 'muscling up'):

I. Military Press 4 x 5-6
Stiff-Leg Dead Lift 4 x 5-8
Bent Over Row 4 x 6-8
Front Squat 4 x 10
Bench Press 4 x 5
Curl 3 x 5-6

II. Behind Neck Press 4-5 x 5-6
Squat 4 x 10
Power Clean 5 x 5-6
Bent Over Row 4 x 6-8
Shrug 4-5 x 8

III. Stiff-Leg Dead Lift 4 x 5-8
Power Clean 5 x 5-6
Squat 4 x 10
Bench Press 4 x 5
Straddle Lift 4 x 10
Behind Neck Press 4 x 5-6

IV. Behind Neck Press 4-5 x 5-6
Squat 4 x 10
Bench Press 4 x 5
Power Clean 5 x 5-6
Curl 3 x 5-6

Use as much weight as possible with reasonable form, average two minutes rest between sets. If you've been stuck in a rut on a more traditional routine, one of these may pull you out of it. Frequency for the true hard gainer would be twice every seven days or every third day.

Bill2 Integrity is what you do when you think nobody is watching.

Re: Hard Gainer? Try One of These
11-03-04 03:12 PM - Post#50396    

Bill, thanks for the options. I'm planning on changing routine the first of the year, and these provide some great plans to consider. If you would, please describe a "straddle lift". Never heard of this one.

Thanks again.

/\./\./\./\./\./\./\./\ Lift Long and Prosper "Until the possible becomes actual, it is only a distraction" Jedi Master Qui-Gon "That which you give thought to is that which you begin to invite into you experience." Abraham-Hicks, The Law of Attraction.

Re: Hard Gainer? Try One of These
11-03-04 03:19 PM - Post#50397    

The straddle lift or "Jefferson" lift is as follows:

Stand straddling the bar, one foot slightly in advance of the other. (also, some find it easier to point one foot straight ahead and one foot at about a 45 degree angle. Experiment.)

Squat down to grasp barbell with one hand in front of you and one hand behind you. Grip should alternate occasionally.

While trying to maintain an upright torso, rise to standing position.

A better method is to have the barbell on blocks or stands about 12 inches high. Grasp in aforementioned manner, step to the side to clear blocks and then do the movement, squatting as far down as you can without bending forward excessively.

Done correctly, it is easier on your back than back squats.

"I'm in good shape for the shape I'm in." "Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me." John 14:6

Re: Hard Gainer? Try One of These
11-03-04 03:42 PM - Post#50398    

My appreciation Willie. I can imagine what would happen if one were to have short arms. Hehehe! Ouch!

/\./\./\./\./\./\./\./\ Lift Long and Prosper "Until the possible becomes actual, it is only a distraction" Jedi Master Qui-Gon "That which you give thought to is that which you begin to invite into you experience." Abraham-Hicks, The Law of Attraction.

The Ideal Workout per Arthur Jones
11-08-04 03:53 PM - Post#51541    

From the pen of Arthur himself as published in the June, 1970 issue of "Muscular Development" magazine. In this article Jones outlined the Ideal Training Routine utilizing the machines he had currently produced (three types of lat machines, pressing machine, curling machine, triceps machine and two types of pec machines). Recognizing that few people would have access to all (or in those days, even some) of the equipment, Jones replicated his workout using free weights. Here is that routine:

Monday & Wednesday

First Cycle

Full Squats 1 x 20 :04
Stiff Arm Pullovers 1 x 50 :04
Barbell Row 1 x 12 :04
Behind Neck Chin 1 x 12 :04
Regular Chin 1 x 10 :04
Parallel Dip 1 x 15 :04
DB Decline Press 1 x 12 :04

Total Time for 1st Cycle :28

Second Cycle

Full Squats 1 x 15 :04
Stiff Arm Pullovers 1 x 30 :04

Total Time for 2nd Cycle :08

Then after these two cycles

Standing BB Press 2 x 10/8 :08
Standing BB Curls 2 x 10/8 :08
Tricep Pulley Curl 2 x 15/12 :08
Wrist Curl* 8 x 15 :08
Calf Raise 3 x 20 :06
Stiff-leg Dead Lift 1 x 15 :04
Grip Machine 2 x 20+ :04

Total Time for entire workout 1:22

Friday

Full Squats 3 x 10/8/6 :15
Stiff Arm Pullover 2 x 20/15 :08
Bench Press 3 x 10/8/6 :12
Barbell Row 2 x 10/8 :08
Behind Neck Chin 2 x 12/10 :08
DB Incline Press 2 x 12/10 :08
Standing BB Curl 2 x 10/8 :08
Tricep Pulley Curl 2 x 15/12 :06
Wrist Curl 8 x 15 :08
Calf Raise 3 x 20 :06
Stiff-leg Dead Lift 1 x 15 :04
Grip Machine 2 x 20 :04

*wrist curls to be done in two cycles of four sets each as fast as possible of regular wrist curls, reverse wrist curls, front wrist curls, rear wrist curls in that order.

Jones' stated focus in the first two workout days is to involve the lats as much as possbile while minimizing the arm involvement. This could be done on the machines and is admittedly more difficult to do without intense focus and concentration when doing rows and chins.

It is interesting to contrast this early version of HIIT with current thinking.

Fwiw.

(And my little charts look so much nicer in draft then when the actually show in the post)

Bill2 Integrity is what you do when you think nobody is watching.

Re: The Ideal Workout per Arthur Jones
11-08-04 05:33 PM - Post#51542    

Hey Bill, I haven't heard anything from Jones in a long time other than his son makes/sells Hammer Strength equip. Any insight?

Hey you look like the movie star on Orange County Choppers. Is that you?

P.S. Like the routine...will try it out!

"Today is only one day in all the days that will ever be."........."But what will happen in all the other days that ever come."........."can depend on what you do".........."today." Ernest Hemingway, For Whom The Bell Tolls

Re: The Ideal Workout per Arthur Jones
11-08-04 06:32 PM - Post#51543    

Quote:

---

Bill Keyes said:
From the pen of Arthur himself as published in the June, 1970 issue of "Muscular Development" magazine. In this article Jones outlined the Ideal Training Routine utilizing the machines he had currently produced (three types of lat machines, pressing machine, curling machine, triceps machine and two types of pec machines). Recognizing that few people would have access to all (or in those days, even some) of the equipment, Jones replicated his workout using free weights. Here is that routine:

Monday & Wednesday

First Cycle

Full Squats 1 x 20 :04
Stiff Arm Pullovers 1 x 50 :04
Barbell Row 1 x 12 :04
Behind Neck Chin 1 x 12 :04
Regular Chin 1 x 10 :04
Parallel Dip 1 x 15 :04
DB Decline Press 1 x 12 :04

Total Time for 1st Cycle :28

Second Cycle

Full Squats 1 x 15 :04
Stiff Arm Pullovers 1 x 30 :04

Total Time for 2nd Cycle :08

Then after these two cycles

Standing BB Press 2 x 10/8 :08
Standing BB Curls 2 x 10/8 :08
Tricep Pulley Curl 2 x 15/12 :08
Wrist Curl* 8 x 15 :08
Calf Raise 3 x 20 :06
Stiff-leg Dead Lift 1 x 15 :04
Grip Machine 2 x 20+ :04

Total Time for entire workout 1:22

Friday

Full Squats 3 x 10/8/6 :15
Stiff Arm Pullover 2 x 20/15 :08
Bench Press 3 x 10/8/6 :12
Barbell Row 2 x 10/8 :08
Behind Neck Chin 2 x 12/10 :08
DB Incline Press 2 x 12/10 :08
Standing BB Curl 2 x 10/8 :08
Tricep Pulley Curl 2 x 15/12 :06
Wrist Curl 8 x 15 :08
Calf Raise 3 x 20 :06
Stiff-leg Dead Lift 1 x 15 :04
Grip Machine 2 x 20 :04

*wrist curls to be done in two cycles of four sets each as fast as possible of regular wrist curls, reverse wrist curls, front wrist curls, rear wrist curls in that order.

Jones' stated focus in the first two workout days is to involve the lats as much as possbile while minimizing the arm involvement. This could be done on the machines and is admittedly more difficult to do without intense focus and concentration when doing rows and chins.

It is interesting to contrast this early version of HIIT with current thinking.

Fwiw.

(And my little charts look so much nicer in draft then when the actually show in the post)

---

Hell Bill.

Intense/ infrequent training.

I'm in a moment now.

Tim

Re: The Ideal Workout per Arthur Jones
11-08-04 06:37 PM - Post#51544    

Quote:

---

Tim Mendelsohn said:

Quote:

---

Bill Keyes said:
From the pen of Arthur himself as published in the June, 1970 issue of "Muscular Development" magazine. In this article Jones outlined the Ideal Training Routine utilizing the machines he had currently produced (three types of lat machines, pressing machine, curling machine, triceps machine and two types of pec machines). Recognizing that few people would have access to all (or in those days, even some) of the equipment, Jones replicated his workout using free weights. Here is that routine:

Monday & Wednesday

First Cycle

Full Squats 1 x 20 :04
Stiff Arm Pullovers 1 x 50 :04
Barbell Row 1 x 12 :04
Behind Neck Chin 1 x 12 :04
Regular Chin 1 x 10 :04
Parallel Dip 1 x 15 :04
DB Decline Press 1 x 12 :04

Total Time for 1st Cycle :28

Second Cycle

Full Squats 1 x 15 :04
Stiff Arm Pullovers 1 x 30 :04

Total Time for 2nd Cycle :08

Then after these two cycles

Standing BB Press 2 x 10/8 :08
Standing BB Curls 2 x 10/8 :08
Tricep Pulley Curl 2 x 15/12 :08
Wrist Curl* 8 x 15 :08
Calf Raise 3 x 20 :06
Stiff-leg Dead Lift 1 x 15 :04
Grip Machine 2 x 20+ :04

Total Time for entire workout 1:22

Friday

Full Squats 3 x 10/8/6 :15
Stiff Arm Pullover 2 x 20/15 :08
Bench Press 3 x 10/8/6 :12
Barbell Row 2 x 10/8 :08
Behind Neck Chin 2 x 12/10 :08
DB Incline Press 2 x 12/10 :08
Standing BB Curl 2 x 10/8 :08
Tricep Pulley Curl 2 x 15/12 :06
Wrist Curl 8 x 15 :08
Calf Raise 3 x 20 :06
Stiff-leg Dead Lift 1 x 15 :04
Grip Machine 2 x 20 :04

*wrist curls to be done in two cycles of four sets each as fast as possible of regular wrist curls, reverse wrist curls, front wrist curls, rear wrist curls in that order.

Jones' stated focus in the first two workout days is to involve the lats as much as possbile while minimizing the arm involvement. This could be done on the machines and is admittedly more difficult to do without intense focus and concentration when doing rows and chins.

It is interesting to contrast this early version of HIIT with current thinking.

Fwiw.

(And my little charts look so much nicer in draft then when the actually show in the post)

---

Hell Bill.

Intense/ infrequent training.

I'm in a moment now.

Tim

---

In other words/ dont over train. Jungle Boogie. Get Down.

Tim

Re: The Ideal Workout per Arthur Jones
11-08-04 10:51 PM - Post#51545    

The most recent Jones workout would be a lot different.

"I would've trained less. Instead of 12 exercises, I would have reduced the number to 8. Instead of two sets, I would have performed only one set. Instead of training three times per week, I would have trained twice a week."
Arthur Jones- August 5th, 2003. As quoted by E. Darden.

Jones started w/4 sets of 12 exercises and over the years dropped exercises and sets.

Yours in Iron, Tom "....'cause she knowed he had a Mercury......" Steve Miller "Your work is to discover your world and then with all your heart give yourself to it." Buddha

Re: The Ideal Workout per Arthur Jones
11-09-04 03:14 AM - Post#51546    

Quote:

---

Garykissell said:
Hey Bill, I haven't heard anything from Jones in a long time other than his son makes/sells Hammer Strength equip. Any insight?

Hey you look like the movie star on Orange County Choppers. Is that you?

P.S. Like the routine...will try it out!

---

Hi, Gary. No idea what the senior Jones is doing now. And nope, I'm not the film guy. :)

The routine is pretty good and fun, but it is indeed a killer when performed per Jones' standards.

If you give it a try, I'd like to hear what you think of it.

Bill2 Integrity is what you do when you think nobody is watching.

Re: The Ideal Workout per Arthur Jones
11-09-04 09:33 AM - Post#51547    

Gary,

I read that Jones is retired in Florida. He has not written anything for publication for a few years.

Yours in Iron, Tom "....'cause she knowed he had a Mercury......" Steve Miller "Your work is to discover your world and then with all your heart give yourself to it." Buddha

Re: The Ideal Workout per Arthur Jones
11-09-04 10:46 AM - Post#51548    

Bill,

Tom's right on with that quote. Different people can generate different levels of intensity. Those that can really pull it all together would be totally wiped out on the routines you listed (especially the longer ones).

I'd cut them down even further than 8, to no more than 4 compound exercises (or even 3) per session with a good 3-4 (or more if required) days rest in between.

I'd build a routine that places the most demanding and largest bodyparts first (squats/DL), then one upper body movement (chest/back), then if you have anything left you can work arms (calves should always be done if you need them worked).

I'm not saying to do it this way because Jones recommended it, I say it because I've used this method in my own training cycles for a good while and it works, consistently. And as the demands of the exercises that follow are less it's easier to stay focused and continue to train hard.

A good session would be DL, weighted chins, close grip bench press, lateral raises, another would be full squats, incline dumbell bench press, standing calf, barbell curls. Keep in mind the first few weeks of the cycle you'd find this lacking, but as you discover your strength and stamina increasing each workout you'll be glad it's only 3 or 4 exercises you have to deal with.

Why no direct compound shoulder work? The front delts get hit during the chest and triceps exericses, the rear during DL and chins. You could even drop biceps as they get hit hard during weighted chins and triceps during the incline dumbell presses.

Re: The Ideal Workout per Arthur Jones
11-09-04 01:32 PM - Post#51549    

Having the "pedigree" of working on and off for Arthur for seven years and being one of his "second tier" guinea pigs, he was always looking for "perfect exercise". As the machines became "better" or more efficient at making inroads into one's momentary ability, we were able to do less and benefit more from that approach. Remember to put the programs of 1970 into context: this or these were amazingly short programs relative to what 99% of the lifting population was doing at the time, which usually included a minimum bodybuilding program of 40-60 sets, four to six times per week. Of course, as one works harder, they have to do less and that was one of the things Arthur was always trying to accomplish. He was big into efficiency. He is presently retired in Florida and recently had to bury his wife Inge who was an extremely talented woman and on the scene with Arthur since the mid sixties. Those who speak to him regularly say he is still very sharp.
Dr. Ken

Re: The Ideal Workout per Arthur Jones
11-09-04 03:50 PM - Post#51550    

Dr. Ken,

Thanks for the info on Jones. Never knew you worked with him.

Yes, the exercises listed above would have looked totally radical vs the high volume insanity workouts BB adhered to during that era (and well into the 1970's).

I don't recall, nor have I ever read this anywhere, but did Jones ever advocate cycling workouts?

Re: The Ideal Workout per Arthur Jones
11-09-04 08:01 PM - Post#51551    

Arthur doesn't have much to say anymore except to people he knows. He's basically tired of wasting his time. You can explain things only so much before you eventually move on. There are a few people around that remember what went on back then. Ken was a principal in that group. Funny how some of the more "vocal" on the internet weren't there and haven't a clue what we did. For an education on what we did read Dr. Ken's articles and Nautilus Bulletins 1,2,3. I've written a couple of articles about what AJ allowed and who he allowed to do it. Some things he was very much against. Still is.

Jim Bryan

Re: The Ideal Workout per Arthur Jones
04-17-08 03:24 PM - Post#433098    

• Jim Bryan Said:

It does get tiring, however, there is always someone that is new, or just in need of help, that can benefit from good solid advice.
Don't give up on people; you can do that after they put you under the sod carpet.
And remember, in this game, more is not better; better is better. ;)

“The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart..."

Edited by CASTIRON on 04-17-08 03:25 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.