DanMartin
Sancta Simplicitas
Posts: 15466
Age: 56
Registered on 04-04-04
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Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-16-06 06:05 PM - Post#189545
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nomain said:
That's pretty much what I wanted to hear ;-) I've been benching with the elbows in for years, and I've been using the same grip width for rows as well (about a year now). The only time my left shoulder hurts is doing OHP, which is kind of weird since I'm using ridiculously light weights. It's gotten better since I incorporated shoulder warmups/strengthening exercises, but still not 100%. Frustrating... since I have this picture in my mind of OHP'ing 135# someday...
Elke
Use dumbbells girlfriend.
Cognosco, Sudo, Rideo
I am just a vessel for peace, love and understanding.
Strong men also cry. |
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Anonymous
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Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-16-06 06:17 PM - Post#189546
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garyed said:
Quote:
Laree said:
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garyed said:
Lots of chicken little talk on this topic.. the sky is falling.. oh my..
...said by the guy coming off shoulder surgery rehab, lol...
I am fearless..I really don;t worry about my shoulders..I am more concerned about when I will get over 400lbs. on my bench again..
Old guys/gals may have shoulder problems.. thats a fact..so what...?? he he
My surgeon and my therapist said that I was the FIRST powerlifter(bench presser) that they had worked with.. They both have worked with hundreds of people with shoulder injuries..some sports related others not.. Of course PLing/benching is not a mainstream activity...But both supported the concept that a shoulder injury (rotator in particular) may be inevitable for many folks.. due to structure..and impingement, regardless of activity or any attempts to stop it.. Looking at the structure of the shoulder that was easy to understand..
many older folks have torn rotators and they never lifted any weights whatever.. so why would benching be a primary cause of such an injury? I don't know..I just lift stuff..
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Barney
IronBear
Posts: 8298
Age: 54
Loc: Central FL from NJ
Registered on 03-30-04
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Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-17-06 11:48 AM - Post#189547
If I take a narrower grip and make sure to keep my elbows in, I can bench without shoulder pain. Sometimes small modifications are all that you need.
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/sk
geek for "seldom posts"
Posts: 5514
Age: 51
Loc: Texas
Registered on 03-31-04
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Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-17-06 11:59 AM - Post#189548
Keep it up, I have no doubt you'll get there.
/sk
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ccrow
old hand
Posts: 10045
Registered on 04-08-04
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Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-17-06 01:42 PM - Post#189549
Keeping the elbows in does reduce the potential problems. The further back you flare the elbows, the greater the internal rotation and the more chance of impingement you have. Very few people will be able to bench with the elbows back so the upper arms are perpendicular to the bench without eventual injury. The Gironda Neck Press - lowering to the collarbone with elbows flared - is probably about as hard on the shoulder as any exercise you could possibly invent.
Tucking the elbows will shift some of the work from the pecs to the shoulders and triceps, which may slightly reduce the tendency for the exercise to shorten the pecs. Tucking doesn't help the shoulderblades move normally though.
It's safe to say the elbows will last longer with the elbows tucked but it doesn't resolve all the issues.
The most important test a lifter has to pass
is the test of time.
-John Cole
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nomain
Work in Progress
Posts: 2187
Age: 41
Loc: NYC
Registered on 04-05-04
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Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-17-06 04:09 PM - Post#189550
Thanks everyone for the feedback.
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Dale
New here
Posts: 2
Registered on 03-27-06
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Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-27-06 10:01 PM - Post#189551
Hi,
I am happy that Mr. Starr will be answering some questions for us. Is there any estimate as to when the answers might be posted?
kind regards,
Dale
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Laree
(Rhymes with Marie)
Posts: 21467
Loc: Santa Cruz, CA
Registered on 03-25-04
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Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
03-28-06 10:51 AM - Post#189552
Hopefully soon, but no, there's no estimate. He doesn't have online access (doesn't want it, if anyone's curious), and will be responding in longhand by mail. Maybe we'll see one or two answers, followed by another couple the following week... really not sure what to expect. But I do know we'll get the responses, of that I'm sure.
Thanks for signing on, Dale. I suspect you'll fit right in here.
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Laree
(Rhymes with Marie)
Posts: 21467
Loc: Santa Cruz, CA
Registered on 03-25-04
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Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
04-08-06 12:56 PM - Post#189553
Beauty day! Got Bill's responses in the mail yesterday and am spending the morning sorting out which answers go where. (lol) I'll post them under his name for clarity, but you'll know he's not here, doesn't have email and won't be responding to private messages he doesn't see.
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Bill Starr
New here
Posts: 8
Registered on 04-08-06
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Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
04-08-06 01:07 PM - Post#189554
Quote:
Wicked Willie said:
The Power Clean is what I would call a technique intensive movment, if done properly. The slow pull from the floor with straight arms, the explosive second pull, with elbows up and up, rising on the toes with a full shoulder shrug. This is a good movement for a well-conditioned athlete...but there exists quite a potential for damage from the uncoached movement, i.e. like Cajin turning his wrists over either too slowly or with lack of sufficient height...either one will strain the wrist tendons.
Dr. Ken (another man with a similar background, especially training for football) doesn't recommend the power clean, for the reason I mention and also that it places unusual demands on the connective tissues.
Numerous authorities now feel that you can't train "explosiveness," at least not with conventional weight training exercises.
How do you answer this?
There is always the potential for injury whenever any exercise is done incorrectly and this goes for the power clean as well. However, it is a simple movement to teach. Keep in mind that a beginner will be handling very light weights while learning proper form, so the risk is no greater than it is on squats, benches, inclines, or any other primary exercise. As for the power clean placing too much stress on the connective tissues, I don't think that's a problem.
And the concern about wrist injuries is also ungrounded. Should an athlete have weak wrists, tape them and include specific movements to strengthen them. We're talking about preparing athletes for a variety of contact sports where they often explode into one another at full speed. If they can't handle power cleans, they aren't ready to participate in contact sports.
I believe that YOU can enhance explosiveness in the weight room. I've seen it done on countless occasions. Power snatches, full snatches, full cleans, and jerks all force the muscles, attachments, and most importantly, the nervous system to react more quickly. And that attribute can be utilized in any physical activity. Even the strength he gains from more static lifts, like the squat and deadlift, helps him jump higher and move faster.
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Bill Starr
New here
Posts: 8
Registered on 04-08-06
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Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
04-08-06 01:09 PM - Post#189555
Quote:
DanMartin said:
Coach Starr, in conjunction with the TSSS, if you were to suggest a direct lat exercise, what would be your choice?
I have two favorites: snatch-grip high pulls and wide-grip chins.
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Bill Starr
New here
Posts: 8
Registered on 04-08-06
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Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
04-08-06 01:20 PM - Post#189556
Quote:
ccrow said:
For a long time, at least twenty years, seems like shoulder injuries and lifting weights go pretty much hand in hand. The bench press usually gets the blame yet some authorities insist overhead lifting is harder on the shoulders than bench pressing. The lab coat types will doubtless argue this to a draw.
I just wonder if these injuries were more common, less common, or about the same back when people did less bench pressing and more standing pressing, as well as more of the snatch and clean and jerk. Any other insights into keeping healthy shoulders welcome.
The bench press per se is not a risky exercise. When done right, it can help improve upper body strength and size. It's only when form takes a back seat to numbers and when it's grossly overtrained that problems result. Injuries occur in the shoulders and elbows when the bench press is overtrained, poor technique is used, such as rebounding the bar off the chest and bridging, no other exercises for the upper body are included in the program, and there are no core exercises done for the upper back. Quite often, it's a combination all these factors.
Quote:
I'm more curious about what went on back in the day when lifters did both. Did overhead work have a protective effect on the shoulders? I work out with a group of masters olympic lifters. The oldest has been competing for about fifty years, not kidding, seriously, since the 1950s. Most of these guys have zero shoulder problems and have never heard of their rotator cuff. By and large they are much more pain free than powerlifters of similar caliber twenty years younger.
When the overhead press was the primary upper body exercise, there were no such things as rotator cuff injuries, because that lift worked the small muscles that make up the rotator cuff and made them stronger. The bench press does not hit those groups. A great many athletes who give priority to flat benches do not bother to do anything for their upper backs. This results in a disproportionate strength in the shoulders and sooner or later will spell trouble. This problem can be rectified with some heavy work on the upper back: high pulls, shrugs, and bent-over rows.
Also, building variety into the upper body routine helps to prevent injuries. Once an athlete has graduated into the intermediate stage, I have him do: flat benches, inclines, overhead presses, and dips. He starts out with freehand dips, then when he is able to do 20, I have him do weighted dips. Working all the different angles of the upper body assure a more balanced development and all of the exercises help the others improve. I also make sure that the upper back receives plenty of attention. Of course, as always, using correct form is critical to safety. If an athlete learns to pause the bar on his chest on the flat bench from the very beginning, he will greatly reduce the risk of injury and be able to handle more weight in the long run.
I have written many times that I prefer the incline over the flat bench for young athletes. It is a pure shoulder exercise which is more suitable to sports such as baseball, basketball, and lacrosse. It is difficult to cheat on the incline, and this is a good thing. The reason the flat bench is part of The Big Three rather than the incline is because when Tommy Suggs and I devised this program, there simply weren't any inclines available in high school. There weren't even many in commercial gyms back then.
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Bill Starr
New here
Posts: 8
Registered on 04-08-06
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Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
04-08-06 01:22 PM - Post#189557
Quote:
Laree said:
What's your thinking on noisy knees? Not painful, however in addition to the noise, there's enough "feeling" to make it nerve-racking sometimes.
If they don't hurt, I wouldn't be concerned. I've trained with quite a few lifters who experienced noise in their knees when they squatted, but it never caused them any real trouble. Naturally, if they do start hurting, it would be wise to see a doctor.
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Bill Starr
New here
Posts: 8
Registered on 04-08-06
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Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
04-08-06 01:37 PM - Post#189558
Quote:
LWB said:
Bill Starr’s book is directed toward training young athletes with constraints both on the available time and the number of athletes that must be accommodated in that time.
This profile differs markedly from that which is germane to most IOL members. Specifically, many of us are hardly young, we typically train alone or with a partner in a setting where throughput is not an issue and at least some of us have the luxury of time. My first question for Bill Starr is whether he would make different recommendations for an IOL community than he would for a HS/college/pro football team.
I have a ‘specialized’ question from my son. Evan is a HS senior who has been recruited to play college lacrosse. His HS coach has him on a training program that is indistinguishable from that recommended in Bill Starr’s book. Evan is a face-off middie and asks whether, in all your experience with JHU LAX, you had occasion to promote any specialized training for the face-off guys.
I start older athletes out with the same program as I do younger ones. Then, if they have specific needs, I alter it to fit those needs, such as not being able to rack a power clean because of bad shoulders or inflexiblity. I have them do power snatches instead and if these are also difficult to do, I have them high pull. Age isn't the factor. It's how firm the strength base is and that's what the program outlined in the book is trying to accomplish.
A LAX player who is involved in facing off must be strong and quick. He must have strong hips and legs, as well as a sturdy back and upper body. This simply means that his strength program must be set UP to build balanced strength. If any area is disproportionately weak, he will not be a good face-off man.
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Bill Starr
New here
Posts: 8
Registered on 04-08-06
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Re: Questions for Bill Starr?
04-08-06 01:42 PM - Post#189559
Quote:
Laree said:
What is your current training and nutrition strategy for yourself, and how has it changed as you've matured?
I basically use what Jack LaLanne has been preaching for over fifty years, high reps with light weights. I walk and train six days a week, usually 45 minutes of each. I have two routines which I alternate every other day. At 68, I want the exercises to flush blood and nutrients to my joints and I do not want to put them under any undue stress. The high reps, sometimes in the 200-rep range, works my muscles and alleviates my arthritis.
My nutritional philosophy in regards to supplements is very much the same as it was when I wrote TSSS. That's when I really learned how important the various supplements were to health. I build my diet around protein and take large amounts of supplements to insure that I am getting plenty of the necessary vitamins and minerals. It's what Peary Rader called the "shovel method." High dosages of vitamin C and mult-minerals head my list, followed by E, A&D, B-complex, L-lysine, B6, and folic acid. I also use Mag-Cal at night to help me relax and get to sleep.
I avoid all the fad supplements like HGH and creatine because I just don't need it at my age and why take a risk that it might be, in fact, harmful? Since I'm not training heavy any longer and walk instead of run, my caloric needs are much lower. I only eat two meals a day and in smaller portions than I used to consume. No snacking.
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