12-15-10 04:40 PM - Post#665950    

The Four Hour Body, by Tim Ferriss. Just came out.

Go.

First general question: Tim is a "dabbler." He does a lot of things at a pretty good level then moves along.

What is the benefit of dabbling? (I would suggest you look at the Swing (Perfect Posterior) chapter, the Barry Ross chapter on sprinting, the Combine Chapter with deFranco, and the Pose chapter...toss in Grey Cook's too...

What is the downside of dabbling as you look over the whole work.

You don't need to finish the book for this first part of the discussion, just discuss the concepts behind the questions.

Daniel John Just handing down what I was handed down... Make a Difference. Live. Love. Laugh. Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude) Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk. Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth. Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights. Reread great books. Say thank you

12-15-10 11:19 PM - Post#666018    

I see you liked my idea. I'll pick it up tomorrow.

Kettlebells with Dan John

Re: The Four Hour Body by Tim Ferriss
12-15-10 11:26 PM - Post#666021    

I've only spent a little under an hour on the sections Dan mentioned, so please, consider all opinions with that in mind.

Dabbling?
It allows anyone looking for an introduction to several approaches a chance to get a very fundamental and quick idea of the subjects dealt with. That basic beginning can act as a 'stepping stone' to a more detailed and complete understanding of the concepts, should the reader/trainer decide to dig deeper.

Those five sections you mentioned, Dan, were without doubt interesting to go over, and I for one want to find out more about a few of them. The Barry Ross book on running is 90 pages in itself. That's something to remember when skimming over a few pages on what conclusions Mr. Ross has come to after spending time experimenting and compiling knowledge on his methods. I'm thinkin' maybe this 4-hour book is like a list of maps available, not so much a map in itself, and it's great that someone put in the effort to put it together.

Now for the bad news.
For one thing, dabbling easily leads to the ever popular 'rubber ball' method of training. Bouncing around from one short-lived, soon-forgotten goal to another, never really giving any one approach the time span required to take home a few rewards. Give and take's a pretty big thing in most endeavors of worth; like it or not, a simple fact.

If unchecked, dabbling can lead anyone down that famous 'path with 10,000 turns'. Duh, which way did my progress go? That's what I see as the biggest problem with the dabble. That, and trying to get a clear picture of what a cartoon character called The Dabble would look like.

When writing as a teacher, trainer or instructor in any discipline, the dabbling approach always seems to leave so many unanswered questions. That could be okay - that short jab from the shoulder can shove an inquiring mind into deeper study of one or more of the subjects, but there's a possible downside of never really getting a full understanding of any one concept, of doing nothing more than just 'dabbling' - that's dangerous, and so much fun. But hey, remember that first introductory course you took in that subject? The one that turned you on to what became a ten-year interest in the deeper facets of the hobby-diamond of your choice. It can be good, and it can work!

I think there's always a lot of questions unanswered when you dabble, and that's not surprising considering the quantity of topics dealt with. And it can get downright confusing trying to figure out just which tack to take on the way to any goal, especially when inundating yourself with wave upon wave of really good methods.

Small gripe here -
please don't ever use a Lamar Gant photo sequence to teach someone the standard deadlift. His body structure was anything but standard. Yeah, I'm trying to master the deadlift, but for some reason he finishes the movement with the bar at mid-shins. What is I doin' wrong here???

It's a great book, and I'm looking forward to spending some enjoyable time browsing around in it over the Holidays. You know, scanning a little of this, perusing a bit of that. Maybe even getting hold of some of the full books these methods are explained in.

It's a great choice for a discussion book, no doubt. There's so many things dealt with in here, well, it should lead to a truckload of topics. And not one of those little 3-ton ones. The big semi with all them wheels.

Life's too short to worry about longevity.

Edited by Neander on 12-15-10 11:38 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

12-16-10 06:54 AM - Post#666045    

I had a look on Amazon and the book isn't even released to the public yet! Obviously, I haven't read it yet...

If you look at the big picture, there are three approaches you can take.

(1) Dabbling

Pros: Lots of variety, don't get bored, exposure to lots of activities
Cons: Difficult to get good at any one thing, conflicting goals (powerlifting one year, marathon running the next)

(2) Total consistency

Pros: Get good at one thing
Cons: Risk of injury, diminishing returns

(3) Structured dabbling

For example, have one sport / activity as your main focus. Structure your supplementary training around one main goal that changes over time. In Vern Gambetta's words: "Get strong, get fast, get fit, get specific, compete." IMHO, probably the best approach...

Check out my critical-thinking blog at sharpenyouraxe.substack.com

12-16-10 08:48 AM - Post#666055    

Ordered last week, should be here soon. I've been checking out Ferris' youtube channel for the four hour body and he has a partial deadlift that I found underwhelming, six plates from mid-thigh on a Smith Machine does not relate to much of a full deadlift (I'm going to say 400lbs.?, any opinions here). That's like posting your best quarter squat to the internet- pretty sophomoric. Maybe some method to that is outlined in the book, but heavy partials are not something even I would post online, though they have their place in training.

There's a big difference between a dabbler and a dabbler who's rich, seemingly pretty smart and pragmatic, and has access to a number of high level coaches and scientists.

I'll get back when the book arrives.

"Every social association that is not face-to-face is injurious to your health." Nassim Nicholas Taleb

12-16-10 12:06 PM - Post#666113    

The reason I even ask is that in the book, "Mastery," "dabbling" gets low marks. This is not a knock on Tim at all, and I don't know him at all, but you note that he also has lots of girlfriends mentioned in the book (glasshouse, stone thrower, old jealous guy warning) which is also part of the formula that George Leonard gives us in the book.

Now, yes, Tim makes a fair amount of money doing this. It is one of the most mentioned things about him on the webs: he is a full-time self promoter. Yet, his work, this book, really is nice as it opens up a lot of information...at a basic level...to a lot of people.

It turns out, as I examine my career and work harder and harder on my workshops, that I am a dabbler, too. True mastery is true mastery and I have let that slide through my hands several times. I think it helps me as a coach to be broad, but it hurt me as an athlete.

It is interesting to discuss this at Dave Draper's forum as he has a laser beam focus. Just a thought that ran through my ADD brain...

So, the upside of professional dabbling is that you can write a best seller. Also, it seems to allow you to connect the dots faster than someone with a single focus. What are the downsides?

Daniel John Just handing down what I was handed down... Make a Difference. Live. Love. Laugh. Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude) Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk. Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth. Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights. Reread great books. Say thank you

12-16-10 12:19 PM - Post#666118    

To tie this into another thread in your forum, I'd say the biggest downside (depending on your perspective) is that dabblers never become elite. The upside is that dabblers become proficient in a lot more things.

Ferris is all about the Pareto principle, which I get completely. Put in 20% of the work, reap 80% of the results, and move on. You'll never get 100% of the results without putting in 100% of the work, though. If it's worth truly mastering, you'll find that you're not content to dabble. If it isn't, you'll find that dabbling gives you more than enough.

The more I eat and the heavier I train, the better my genetics get. If you're not paraplegic and not squatting, please kick your own ass for me." "Do you really think that the reason most guys don't have big arms is purely because of a lack of doing curls?" --Alwyn Cosgrove "There is only one gram of carbs in STFD and no carbs at all in STFU." --Byron Chandler "Use meaningful loads to achieve results." --Big Vic http://www.stoneagefitnessconcepts.com

12-16-10 12:20 PM - Post#666119    

For me the downsides were very apparent in the chapters on dieting, which I thought were terrible. First he tells us that the scientists are all wrong about calories and that calorie restriction is not the way to lose weight. Then he sets out a series of rules such as 'Don't eat anything white' (I HATE this rule) and 'Eat the same foods at each meal,' and he also suggests you have one 'free' day a week. People can certainly lose weight this way, especially if their diet is terrible to start with, but they are losing weight by restricting calories. They've cut out major food groups from which many people get a huge number of daily calories, and they are restricting variety in their diets, which also tends to decrease food consumption. He also has a truly foolish refutation of the 'calorie theory' based on the idea that we don't 'incinerate' our food in the same way that calories are burned in the lab.

So in nutshell, the downside of dabbling is that you can be dead wrong.

On the other side, the book seems OK when he is talking to knowledgeable people such as Grey Cook and Tracy Reifkind and those sections could indeed be helpful to many people.

12-16-10 12:31 PM - Post#666122    

I wouldn't be nearly so quick to dismiss the dieting chapters as dead wrong--especially as the calorie theory really is full of holes. Eliminating white foods works much more comprehensively than simple caloric restriction. It blunts the glycemic response of your meals, allows your body to release more glucagon, reduces inflammation, and minimizes fat storage at equal caloric intakes. Sorry you hate the rule, but it is effective for many people--including people who know how to eat.

The more I eat and the heavier I train, the better my genetics get. If you're not paraplegic and not squatting, please kick your own ass for me." "Do you really think that the reason most guys don't have big arms is purely because of a lack of doing curls?" --Alwyn Cosgrove "There is only one gram of carbs in STFD and no carbs at all in STFU." --Byron Chandler "Use meaningful loads to achieve results." --Big Vic http://www.stoneagefitnessconcepts.com

12-16-10 12:32 PM - Post#666123    

In other words, a dabbler can get to 80% using the wrong path? I think I have seen this in sport with kids becoming state champs (in smaller states) doing "all the wrong things" but, because of genetics (blame God), pull it off any way...

It is interesting talking to the masters and asking for a list of one to four things that "really work." I do it all the time.

Daniel John Just handing down what I was handed down... Make a Difference. Live. Love. Laugh. Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude) Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk. Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth. Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights. Reread great books. Say thank you

12-16-10 12:37 PM - Post#666125    

I wouldn't necessarily say that a dabbler can get to 80% using the wrong path; I think the dabbler actually has to be conscious of seeking out and following good advice for the piece he or she undertakes.

To take my own area of expertise, though, I have a lot of tricks and tweaks that can help maximize one's strength or physique. You could get at least 80% of the way there, though, by squatting, pulling, and pressing 2-3 times a week, eating reasonable quantities of paleo foods, doing daily mobility work, and doing some sort of energy systems development a couple of times a week, ideally on non-lifting days. That's not sufficient for someone entering contest prep, but it'll more than do for most dabblers.

The more I eat and the heavier I train, the better my genetics get. If you're not paraplegic and not squatting, please kick your own ass for me." "Do you really think that the reason most guys don't have big arms is purely because of a lack of doing curls?" --Alwyn Cosgrove "There is only one gram of carbs in STFD and no carbs at all in STFU." --Byron Chandler "Use meaningful loads to achieve results." --Big Vic http://www.stoneagefitnessconcepts.com

12-16-10 12:50 PM - Post#666129    

• Dan John Said:

Oddly enough, we have one of each in this household, a dabbler and an elite. Elite is harder to pull off -- I'm content at dabbling. It's a heck of a lot more fun, even if less fulfilling at the medal stand.

12-16-10 12:54 PM - Post#666131    

I suppose that when we dabble, we're dependent on other people's expertise. Good dabblers find good experts, but it can be hard to know enough about a field to evaluate all the expert's information independently.

12-16-10 12:59 PM - Post#666134    

To an earlier post, it is worth noting that eliminating white foods is, for all intents and purposes, eliminating calories. I agree Lyn, he's dead wrong about dieting.

I really think that the decision to dabble or master should be made with careful consideration. Dan's point 5 about choosing to be elite - in the referenced thread - I would argue should be first! As an aside...I really like the 80/20 rule.

12-16-10 01:13 PM - Post#666137    

The obvious down side of dabbing is that you become a "jack of all trades and master of none".
However for the vast majority of people who just want to move better, look good naked and play the odd pick up game of soccer its not a problem.
Most people just need to get off the couch and move a little. Dabbling allows for allot of variety and variety keeps enthusiasm up. If you want to run a 5k today, oly lift tomorrow and throw in some kb swings on friday be my guest. Just don't expect to win any medals.
For the competitive athlete the story is obviously very different. You need unwavering focus. But even here theres room for dabbling. We've all heard of football players who box and hockey player who play soccer they just keep it to the off season. Most say that cross training staves off boredom and shores up any weakness they may develop playing their sport.

In short dabble when you can and focus when you must.

12-16-10 01:14 PM - Post#666138    

Hang on, let's stay away from Elite and Mastery. I may have sinned including the reference. Let's look at dabbling a bit more.

I noticed some interesting links in the book. Barry Ross and Pavel. Swings and...

How important was the RKC and Pavel to the writing of this text?

Daniel John Just handing down what I was handed down... Make a Difference. Live. Love. Laugh. Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude) Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk. Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth. Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights. Reread great books. Say thank you

12-16-10 01:49 PM - Post#666145    

I'm a little suspect of this 80/20 deal. There's just something superficial about it. Maybe it's the unquestionable and immediately accepted idea that getting more than you 'pay' for is always a good thing.

The whole 'easy to achieve' and 'smart not hard' approach completely devoid of any possible error that runs through the book, propped up by endless examples of NFL players and infomercial-style before-and-afters tells you something about the book itself.

It's the 80/20 principle applied to book selling!

Dropping deadlifts at the knee, for me, sums up the whole problem with dabbling. And with getting a reward the quick way.

Typical old fart mindset.

Life's too short to worry about longevity.

The Four Hour Body by Tim Ferriss
12-16-10 02:10 PM - Post#666150    

• Quoting:

Are you heading towards something about name-dropping for profit and selling the work done by others?

Hey, he's even got a section with Nina Hartley in there. No stone unturned, right.

On second thought, I don't think I'll be spending all that much time with this one. And now that I know there's a nice parcel of money being made this way, the door to honest opinion is open.

I want the real thing, the halitosis of the horse's breath so to speak. And that's not in here. The listing of names and principles in the index are the best thing about this book!

Regardless, the concepts shuffled and stuck in this book are great discussion starters.

Life's too short to worry about longevity.

Edited by Neander on 12-16-10 02:14 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

12-16-10 02:53 PM - Post#666155    

I've always been a dabbler for years. I did Croosfit for over a year which is basically delegated dabbling.

Dabbling gives you variety which keep you interested and possibly motivated. Dappling also potentially avoids some of the imbalances associated with specialization.

To become a specialist you need to focus, one of the classic definitions being "someone who knows more and more about less and less."

The downside of dabbling is that you never get an opportunity to become really good at anything and a lot of the benefits only become apperant after a certain level of mastery is achieved.

If we apply that to KBs it is better to be able to do a few quality movements - swing, TGU, GS - that do a multitude of lifts badly.

Since last February I've been forced to focus on KB's due to time and equipment constraints. I've followed four routines: A four month PM, a three month ROP, a one month PM and a three month PMM. That and my sport have been my focus.

To that I've added a little dabbling. I see that as spice. I do some yoga, Pilates, Intuflow, follow the Mobility WOD, run, skate cycle etc. But first and foremost it's my sport two days a week and KB 3-4 days per week depending on the routine. I vary the intensity depending on how I feel but the core stays the same.

Dabbling should be the 20 not the 80.

Training Blog.

12-16-10 05:50 PM - Post#666182    

No, no agenda at all. Pavel started the RKC as a "School of Strength" and the ideas are so systematic that many people cling to it. So, a guy like Barry Ross adapts it to sprinters because it works for his needs. Others come by and mishmosh a few things together, ignore the "ladder" of learning and fail miserably (my definition: surgery, sickness, poor performance, injuries).

I would like to discuss this book in the great tradition of conversation. The book is the book and we look at things through a variety of lenses. I see the two questions building on each other:

Tim dabbles: how is this good and how is this not so good?

Tim uses the RKC and tangents from the RKC: how can understanding Pavel's insights about a "School" of training, help connect the dots with Tim's dabbling?

Already, this conversation has allowed me to make an amazing leap with my teaching skills and Nathan Flores is the lucky guy who had lunch with me.

Daniel John Just handing down what I was handed down... Make a Difference. Live. Love. Laugh. Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude) Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk. Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth. Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights. Reread great books. Say thank you

12-16-10 07:01 PM - Post#666198    

I preordered mine ages ago, but living in Australia has its downsides. So I can't talk about content quite yet, and while I could jump into the dabbling thing I'll leave that for now as well. One thing I do want to clear up though:

• bryce Said:

The thing to note is that he was doing it for grip strength, and when you consider the fact he was using a double overhand non-hook grip it kind of becomes a hell of a lot more impressive. He talks about it briefly here:
http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/602/

The Four Hour Body by Tim Ferriss
12-16-10 09:05 PM - Post#666214    

• Quoting:

That's an interesting definition.
A specialist needn't necessarily ignore other disciplines when seeking mastery of his chosen one. All athletics seem to have common ground and relation to each other, and as long as the focus you mentioned stays on the specific goal there might be plenty of benefit waiting to be harvested from other endeavors. Dabbling, in both intellectual and physical studies, could have a real value for some people. I figure.

The powerlifter who studies older Olympic lifting periodization and applies it to his sport, the ping-pong player who finds a cure for his lack of endurance by way of distance running methods, or the aging marksman turning to the martial arts for an answer to his growing unsteadiness.

Is that dabbling?

Most sane people don't limit themselves by building four high walls that block out anything 'unrelated' to their chosen field. And most successful ones likely don't either. If a writer, for example, wants to teach and train himself to appeal to a 'modern' young market, knowing the roots and techniques of writing as far back as possible can't hurt a bit. It's the same in any field of human endeavor, no? The teenage panhandler mentored by an older hobo. All the same game maybe. I wonder if a new millennium sprinter can find something relevant to his training from the gladiators? Of if a hobbyist kettlebell fancier can learn from the Russian methods of several centuries ago combined with field event training ideas. Ooops.

So the dabble can possibly be added to the rigors of one's chosen sport, at a time when it's sensible and not applied with too great an intensity. I believe this was (and is) standard practice for many Olympic lifters as well as other high level athletes, especially during the lighter, first periods of a long plan. Sure, bestial, bruising football linemen play golf in the off season and sip from umbrella laden drinks. Tee hee. No reason the hobbyist can't learn to adapt the habits and practices of the BIG TIME GUYS, on his or her own level. "What harm might there be in that," he asked others who know and share ideas.

Life's too short to worry about longevity.

Edited by Neander on 12-16-10 09:31 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

12-17-10 09:36 AM - Post#666254    

I think Ferris is trying to say:

Both in movement and in diet, dabble for health, focus for performance.

Less Pareto's Law than Taleb's barbell principle (which I'm kind of obsessed with).

90% conservative and safe, 10% aggressive and risk-taking.

90% everyday, normal clean food, 10% aggressive supplementation and specific strategies for performance.

90% normal lifting, 10% Superhuman lifting.

I think it connects to that free market of ideas mentioned here in relation to Kono and O-lifting, where he's trying to eliminate all that is useless in particular areas. As for dabbling, Ferris has focus, picks one area and goes in to it very intensely. For six months he's training as if he were a powerlifter, or a fighter, or a dancer, and the advantage is being able to fully focus in the first place. I think we need to differentiate between dabblers and polymaths. Ferris may be more a polymath (albeit a self-promoting, relatively amoral one) than a dabbler.

"Every social association that is not face-to-face is injurious to your health." Nassim Nicholas Taleb

12-17-10 11:25 AM - Post#666272    

I like that, bryce. The barbell point, The Black Swan approach, is much more Art DeVany.

George Plimpton
A. J. Jacobs
Tim Ferriss

Is there a value to this short term "leaps" into the ring/field/floor?

Daniel John Just handing down what I was handed down... Make a Difference. Live. Love. Laugh. Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude) Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk. Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth. Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights. Reread great books. Say thank you

12-17-10 02:25 PM - Post#666308    

I just got my copy yesterday. It's heftier than I was expecting. There are going to be a lot of tangents in here to talk about, the pluses and minuses from all sides of a bunch of random topics.

12-17-10 02:34 PM - Post#666310    

Did he buy lunch

• Quoting:

"I live, I lift, I ache, I am." - "I don't mean to be rude, but...junk is for jerks" "No pain, no gain' isn’t a nursery rhyme, and 'only the strong survive" ...Etc... Had to put in this quote... Current Quote "Eat better, train harder, be tougher, think surer and rest morer." ~ Draper Dave Draper **** Age 73 Semper Fi... GAB

12-17-10 02:36 PM - Post#666312    

That is true, Laree. That is why I am trying to get the discussion started with the philosophy first. I would like to make sure we all begin with some clarity about the method (the principles actually is a better word here).

For example, after watching and reading "Dynami," Tim's chapter on FMS seems so light in comparison, BUT it would expose someone to the concepts. My knock on that, of course, is doing something like, I'm just picking one out of my head, Chop and Lifts without any establishment of the issue that would "demand" Chop and Lift. I always say "Yes, of course, everyone should squat," but then one on one I might never actually get to a squat (maybe).

Once we get a discussion moving ahead here, I wouldn't mind subdiscussions. With my book, we will go Chapter by Chapter, and I was hoping we could do that here. I am still exploring and experimenting on the chapters related to Sex.

Daniel John Just handing down what I was handed down... Make a Difference. Live. Love. Laugh. Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude) Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk. Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth. Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights. Reread great books. Say thank you

The Four Hour Body by Tim Ferriss
12-17-10 02:53 PM - Post#666315    

I think there is value in a varied background. I boxed in the Scottish University Championships after three months of training and cutting 20lbs. (one my first match, lost my second), worked on a maintenance rig in Alberta for six months to pay off my student debt (killed it in six months, quit by telling my boss I was out and drinking a beer on site in the work shack while changing my clothes to leave), trained for four months and cut again for a kickboxing (Sanshou) match (killed a young cat, he was wheezing by the end of the first round), taught myself the violin and played second fiddle in my University orchestra.

Most men (I don't know about women) want to know how they'd do in prison, and war, and in the ring. It's fun, it makes you feel confident to know you could do this or that. However, you do sacrifice greatness, and you may pump your own tires by convincing yourself that you could have been a master had you stuck with the one thing.

I think it's part of your draw, Dan, as a writer. If you were "just" a lifter or thrower, you wouldn't have the broad appeal you have now but you may have made it to the Olympics.

I'm taking the time to learn the O-lifts, but I'm thirty (today, maybe why I'm pontificating a bit here) and I won't lift like Alexeev but I'll feel like a better man after I get up there and lift at a meet. Am I willing to sacrifice my health so I can add 100lbs. to my snatch? I don't know. Even if I did that I wouldn't be a specialist, but I probably wouldn't be considered a dilettante either because I would have spent a few years getting coached, practicing regularly, and putting in the work.

I almost think it's a spectrum from dabbling and health to specializing and surgery.

"Every social association that is not face-to-face is injurious to your health." Nassim Nicholas Taleb

Edited by bryce on 12-17-10 03:10 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

12-17-10 03:02 PM - Post#666319    

...interestingly I have just taken delivery of Tim's 4 Hour Workweek book because of this:

" Pavel:
I have read a book that has made an impression: The 4-Hour Workweek by Timothy Ferriss.

The 4-Hour Workweek is not a dubious get-rich-quick scheme but a guide to ultimate productivity through ruthless elimination of non-essentials. “Doing less meaningless work, so that you can focus on things of greater personal importance, is NOT laziness,” states the author. “This is hard to accept, because our culture tends to reward personal sacrifice instead of personal productivity. Few people choose to (or are able to) measure the results of their actions and thus measure their contribution in time.”

It is no surprise that Russia has borne a number of Ferriss-type strength and muscle building programs, mercilessly eliminating the non-essentials and delivering extraordinary gains. One is Alexander Faleev’s system that has gained many followers among Russian muscle heads in the last four years. etc"

I have also pre - ordered Tim's 4 Hour Body book but it sounds like a very different message from the principles Pavel drew and carried across in an analogy to Faleev's lifting!?

When walking,walk.When eating,eat. When lifting,lift ~ Zen proverb

The Four Hour Body by Tim Ferriss
12-17-10 08:21 PM - Post#666354    

The dabble could work well with things you're a bit 'blessed' with. Activities that you've been given a natural talent for learning quickly and understanding easily; including both physical and mental understanding.

I stuck to what I was 'good' at for a good part of my life, but now, it's the things that I have a hard time with that seem to be the most rewarding, no matter how slow or how small the progression of gains.

That's one thing possibly lacking in the philosophy we're discussing here.

At times a long hard climb improves the view.

You also can have a tendency toward missing some of the finer points when dabbling, something that may not be a problem in the early going but, if it's weights you're using, the heavier ones have a tendency to 'make clear' anything you missed on the physical and mental learning curve heading up to them. That could be more than a wee problem.

There's a reason master trainers take so much time learning the art of their craft, and are so specific about the order of learning.

Life's too short to worry about longevity.

Edited by Neander on 12-17-10 08:22 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

Re: The Four Hour Body by Tim Ferriss
12-18-10 04:35 AM - Post#666373    

The underlying "I want everything" approach is a recipe for mediocrity. Beyond a certain age, dabbling equates more to lack of commitment which leads to failure and unfulfilled/unrealistic expecations...the "exponential muscle gain" will not continue...will the large fat loss even be permanent etc etc...will some be successful with this "cliff notes"/"reader's digest" approach...yes...but outliers in statistics don't prove/dis-prove a general repeatable proposition.

"Deliberate practice" in the words of Colvin's "Talent Is Over-rated"...or "quality training" in the words of Mr Tommy Kono...or even "long-term/permanent value" in the words of Warren Buffett...these principles aren't found in the "Four Hour Body".

Overall it is internet marketing only... a variation of his 2001 foray into internet businesses...and a subject matter variation of his 2007 book...the "new book" is again existing information re-packaged...the book release timed to take advantage of January New Year's resolutions...hence "fat-loss" in the title..."superhuman" in the title, just read Dan's piece on "What is elite?"

There is "novice level" substance...the author "super-imposing" himself alongside various experts (for the most part) and centres of excellence to further add "credibility"...but my overwhelming impression is the author's "expertise" is akin to a "fan" getting their photo taken with a favourite celebrity...or even "photo-shopping" themselves into a picture (an analogy only - I am NOT saying the book's photos are fake in any way)...just that with dabbling there is no depth of experience to guide past bumps/hurdles that will come.

Also is relying heavily on using other forms of social media techniques (internet sales affiliates) to hopefully generate enough interest for "buys" on Amazon etc...so that major retailers then take notice and pick up the book...then major mainstream media picks up on a "best seller" to further promote it. Anything really "wrong" with that...I would venture to say no (albeit hesitantly)...short-term monetary gains do not (necessarily) equate to a repeatable business model i.e. wealth creation...now also referring to himself as an angel investor as well???...the next book in 2013 will be how to make a 1000% return on investing in "under-performing" businesses.

Back to this book, it would seem that that the physical training and diet "techniques" are just a rehash of what's already widely available/known...and take advantage of the "novice effect" i.e. a plan based on sensible albeit rudimentary information...enough information to get the quick wins early on (the low hanging fruit)...but not a sustainable approach to continuing & lasting improvement beyond the early beginner stage(s).

The original source materials are preferred to show how to overcome the bumps/hurdles to long-term achievement...a little harder maybe to work through.

The 'add 150 pounds+ to your lifts' is basic powerlifts only...Pavel style.

The 'gain 34 pounds of muscle in 28 days' is a version of Arthur Jones 'Colorado Experiment'...uses the Jones method which allows rest between exercises (as per the original Nautilus Bulletins 1 & 2) rather than the Darden method which is the 'express 15 minutes' start to finish method...plus 5000 calories a day...interesingly the author's muscle gain was NOT permanent because he found the eating the 5000 calories a day was time consuming and "work-like".

The 'avoid fat gain whilst binging' is simply have a cheat day after six days of controlled eating...the diet is a hotch-potch of low-GI/low-carb approaches as per books "The Glucose Revolution" (low-GI) and "Protein Power" (high protein/low carb).

But the central question remains - is there anything useful for the long-term or new or novel...no. It does not even qualify as an exposition of fundamentals because the various approaches have a short-term time stamp expiry on them.

The original source materials are the preferred method of gaining knowledge...contrasted with gaining summary information from the "cliff notes" or "reader's digest" version of short-term experiment(s)...can't say it's research or study.

Cheers,

JP

PS: Archie Moore "carried" George Plimpton in their sparring session as detailed in "Shadow Box"...Moore would have gained nothing by crunching Plimpton...amongst world champions, he is the all-time leader of knock-outs in the boxing ring ...Plimpton would only have been in danger if he tried to get "cute"...he was sensible enough to "just box along"...a great fighter like Moore became a great fighter by beating other great fighters in competition at a time when there was only one champion in eight weight divisions (unlike today)...which reverts to Dan's other post on "what is elite".

...on Ferris' credentials as a national kick boxing champion...who did he beat?...what were his opponents' competitive records? National level championships are typically able to be verified.

Edited by jp92 on 12-20-10 01:40 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

12-18-10 01:14 PM - Post#666408    

I pretty much agree with everything JP says above...

Lyn

12-18-10 07:16 PM - Post#666435    

My friend, Zach Even-Esh, says the book is legit. I am keeping an open mind til I read it.

Peace ~ Bear

The Four Hour Body by Tim Ferriss
12-18-10 07:26 PM - Post#666436    

• Dan John Said:

Darien Caldwell did great in HS and later at NCSU with terrible technique. Learning to do things "right" would have ruined him.

Peace ~ Bear

Edited by Barney on 12-18-10 07:28 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

Re: The Four Hour Body by Tim Ferriss
12-19-10 12:35 AM - Post#666457    

You can read the author's own comments on his own blog dated Saturday 18 Dec & 14 Dec re Amazon etc.

http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/category/the-4-h our-body/

It is reliant on internet marketing techniques, use of GoogleAd words etc.

Texts or books can be read at three levels of meaning: literal (facts), implied (information not specifically stated) and inferential (based on a reader's experience with a subject).

Me...I know nothing about running so (if I was interested) would have to read the running material at the literal level...I know a little about strength training so can read that on an implied level...I know more about finance as that's my 22-yr (& counting) occupation so read this book at that level...i.e. in comparision with his other work(s)...it just strikes me as an collection of popular topics to maximise hits on a Google search.

I am not saying it's a bad book per sec...it's a book for novices...just wrt the topics I know something about, it's a re-hash...so how does that qualify it to be a No.1 best-seller...if it does, good for him...well played...but as an expansion of knowledge, it does not cut it at all...and a six-month experiment/methods would hardly allow it to be that.

Cheers

JP

Edited by jp92 on 12-19-10 01:03 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

Re: The Four Hour Body by Tim Ferriss
12-19-10 03:03 AM - Post#666462    

I've finished my own little bit about the overall ethic and general social appropriateness of the book and would like to add yet more to my steaming pile on the general philosophy of dabbling.

I'm not anywhere close to being a trainer of others or anywhere near capable of that, yet I can see how the idea of limiting the length of time spent on any one approach could be useful in dealing with people who have a short span of willpower, interest creation and discipline when faced with the difficulties and anti-temperament of a long-term and minimally changing workout routine.

The aspect of a major change in approach coming soon, coupled with a short preceding cycle of another quite different approach could really allow someone like that to push hard. Sometimes it's the thought of what repetition lies ahead in wait that causes us to hold back on our efforts. That's one thing that could, if sensibly manipulated, possibly be of worth with the dabble approach.

I'm enjoying this discussion an awful lot, and regardless of the sales techniques used within the book and its ads, I figure there's a whole lot we each could learn from openly sharing our thoughts, not on the author or his business practices, but the contents and methods dealt with in his book. There's so many dealt with it pretty well offers an almost infinite amount of opportunities for discussion, kinda like everything else in this life, eh.

Training others, which is essentially what all authors of exercise material do (and that could include even a simple internet post/reply to another lifter's question) seems to me to have a huge responsibility attached to it. Think about it, as the nutcase neo-nazi in Falling Down kept saying.

The tendency, he said as the tangent expanded, is to give advice without consideration of its long term ramifications. Dump a load on some honest innocent, do a few reverse scuffs of the shoes, and move on. That's also one of the problems that can arise when dealing with dabbling and its incompleteness of information, and I really hope we can get some of this book read soon and move on to more specific topics 'cause all this philosophy is nearing the headache point, no?

One of the problems with dabbling is not only the lack of prep work, but also the lack of follow up. There's no time to see what was learned, gained and taken away from the short experience. Sure, do it, move on and forget it is a very current approach to almost everything, but again, some valuable essentials can be lost when doing just that. The question might be, how can the trainee apply what he has learned from method A to the upcoming method B. The total of the two methods can only be increased when the individual's learning of the first is somehow implemented in the upcoming experience of the second. Consider your own training experience as a whole, where each succeeding step is in some ways based on the preceding, however long that line of dots may be. It ain't easy making the most of each and every new approach, and that too is one of the problems of dabbling, especially when it's applied by relative beginners, beginners being most people with less than a decade of experience in their hopefully searchable repertoire of methods and interrelations.

I think a good coach (and what else would you call the author of a training manual? No four-letter words allowed.) a good coach has the ability to not only instruct, steer, and manipulate the progress of his students, but also has the power to subtly direct their thoughts and behaviors beyond the subject itself. Not only does a decent trainer point his charges in the general direction of progress in the chosen endeavor or sport, he also has the capacity, learned or otherwise, to expand and enlarge their entire worldview. Vince Lombardi. Phil Jackson. Thank about it.

So, maybe even when using the dabble approach, there can be, with great effort, the potential to go beyond the short term. It's up to the coach, that is in this case, the author, to follow through and complete the curve. It kinda seems that an exceptional coach or training literature author can do that at will. Here I can't help but think of the late Charles Smith, and the knack he developed for not only progressively educating his readers on the various then-known methods of lifting, but also gradually worked towards opening their minds to some of mankind's higher potentials. Always with the subtle stroke and never with the bluntness of a boot when showing direction.

It's definitely an art, making trainees believe they themselves are the ones who discovered these principles that have been around forever.

That's also what the dabble, because of its compressed and therefore limited time frame, can lose sight of -- subtlety and scope of direction.

Hammering away at training with nothing but the day's sunset in mind is strictly for beginners, the doghouse builders. A true carpenter sees the skyscraper from day one, I'm guessing. The dabble, especially when each part is viewed as a disconnected and strictly individual, stand-alone piece, might be more harm than good. But if these supposedly separate approaches can be organized somehow into a form of long-term, almost cycled totality of training, well then, now we're talkin' zen efficacy.

There's a thought.
Take the book, consider the individual's needs and desires, arrange the sections into a sane long-term progression (always being sure the A.D.D.-leaning trainee believes he's only doing a bunch of unrelated short blips of training) and set the unsuspecting guy loose on a potentially successful long-term plan. Of course, as the man said, if you happen to train alone for any great length of time, you are in effect your own coach, so there would have to be a disconnect here to make it work. That could be one way to make the dabble approach work without so many blind alleys and return trips to failure.

Sheesh, it's no wonder fools like me never get anything done.

Life's too short to worry about longevity.

Edited by Neander on 12-19-10 03:28 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

The Four Hour Body by Tim Ferriss
12-19-10 07:51 AM - Post#666466    

I feel that Tim has taken his own advice and “outsourced” a lot of the best writing in the book.

I have books by Pavel Tsatsouline & Ben Goldacre (highly recommended) on my book shelf.

The 4-hour body is like the cribnotes. You may pass the exam with it but for real understanding you will have look up the references.

Cheers,

Al


Edited by Suleiman on 12-19-10 07:53 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

12-19-10 11:53 AM - Post#666478    

The issue of follow up is excellent. There are some other things, too. When you look at Tim's times and lifts, they are not at an extremely high level and that might be the lack of follow up. His section on going to DeFranco's to get a better VJ and 40 "worked" for him, because his numbers were so less than elite. I would have been interested in "follow up"...I was timed at 4.74 FAT at the Olympic Training Center in the 40 (and I am a slow thrower!)...what could some small tweaks have done for my time.

Having said that, none of that would have made me a better thrower!

Daniel John Just handing down what I was handed down... Make a Difference. Live. Love. Laugh. Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude) Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk. Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth. Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights. Reread great books. Say thank you

The Four Hour Body by Tim Ferriss
12-23-10 10:38 AM - Post#667114    

Got the book a few days ago and have read the the muscle gain section and part of the sex section (what can I say?).

I think as people interested in Strength and Conditioning there are a few things to understand from this book. Like Dan, Ferris is striking a chord with the simplified results-based training crowd, but Ferris is looking to the hi-tech, middle level management crowd aged25-40 with little time nor interest in the intricacies of strength, conditioning, weight loss, the female orgasm.

Unless you're writing a book that furthers the discussion among coaches and enthusiasts it seems that the best thing that you can deliver as an author is a "get up and and do it now and you will get this" approach to writing for strength, fat-loss, and muscle gain. I think Pavel has that edge, Starting Strength, 5/3/1. Don't go too far over my head, tell me what I need to do and let me go.

From a writing perspective I think this book does a few smart things for Ferris. First, it exploits the insecurities of the majority of North American men and women (weight, strength, health, appearance, sex). Second, it presents Ferris in a superstar light through his often mentioned "diary of a mad man" format which not only assures you that he is able to contact experts but gives asides of how this millionaire or that successful friend did x for me which helped me to do y (y=awesome thing that you wish you could do).

All that said, I like the book so far, and I think there is a lot of good basic information to help keep us from getting too distracted by the stream of "new" more complicated works that seem to try to hold you in awe by being unnecessarily complicated. As someone in the research end of things I really like when authors quote journal articles directly or at least list the articles at the end of the book so that you can evaluate the basis for some of their claims.

"Every social association that is not face-to-face is injurious to your health." Nassim Nicholas Taleb

Edited by bryce on 12-23-10 10:53 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

12-23-10 01:08 PM - Post#667136    

On the muscular gain section, my confusion would be this: he gives the great story of Tracy (and the other girl...name escapes me) then follows it up with the Casey Viator story. The two methods are as opposite as I can imagine. I kept expecting to see some comment along those lines. If you look at the muscle and strength sections, they are "all over the place." Not bad or good, I'm just saying that it is hard to pin down what the "answer" is...

Did you think the same thing?

Daniel John Just handing down what I was handed down... Make a Difference. Live. Love. Laugh. Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude) Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk. Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth. Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights. Reread great books. Say thank you

The Four Hour Body by Tim Ferriss
12-23-10 01:28 PM - Post#667138    

I think the reason for that "all over the place" feel is that he wants you to use what he's done here as targeted, and he wants to appeal to the right part of his audience for that section.

Tracy's story is found in the specific chapter called, Building the Perfect Posterior (or losing 100+ pounds). He even references Michelle Obama's arms a few times in the chapter. If there was ever a chapter targeted more to a busy, overweight female audience I don't know of it. Two big female fears; bad looking ass and too fat, one chapter.

Viator is in from Geek to Freak: How to Gain 34 pounds of muscle in 28 days. Again, male fear/desires are being targeted in this specific, all-you-need-to-know chapter. Even the title draws on the most classic Charles Atlas kind of appeal.

I think the difference between what you would consider an "answer" and what Ferris would consider an "answer" are two different animals. You want something that transcends and will be a good read in 50 years for serious athletes and competitors, Ferris badly wants the #1 New York Times best-seller by exploiting or exploring the physical fears and desires of fitness book market shares. Don't get me wrong, he seems like a good guy to have a drink with.

Where Ferris would say you can do this or that in 28 days, you would say you can do this or that in 28 days as part of a journey that will last the rest of your life. The former is of more appeal to the jet-set crowd.

"Every social association that is not face-to-face is injurious to your health." Nassim Nicholas Taleb

Edited by bryce on 12-23-10 01:38 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

12-24-10 12:35 AM - Post#667204    

• Dan John Said:

I thought the same thing when it came to nutrition (since that came first in the book). He's talking about losing weight with Slow-Carb (avoid any white baked goods) and is fairly anti-soy in the Dr. Weston Price tradition, for a response to this see http://coachdos.blogspot.com/2010/01/should-we-rea lly-be-scared-of-big-bad.html), and then he interviews Dr. John Berardi who ends up consuming 46% carbohydrates, as well as Ultramarathoner who does consume breads and soy, for one example.

I guess it made me realize that I've gone through a journey of foods and exercise trends myself, but what isn't quite present in the book is an overarching philosophy or attempt to reconcile these contrasting / "contradicting" views.

If this book is a map of maps, then where's the map for this book? I felt this was true from a food perspective but also a nutrition perspective, that it still helps to have all these little dabbling guides but that there's no real guidance as to how one should pick training methods or methodologies herein.

Overall I liked the book, it's a neat read for hackers and geeks, but not much depth for any particular field. I think that's fine--it's useful to know a little about everything and everything about a little piece of the world (a T-shaped person they say), although I'm not sure what Tim is an expert in except hacking life: work, food, and fitness.

Funnily enough, Tim and I were at the same RKC together in San Jose, and after I finished the e-edition of 4HB on a plane flight from SFO to JFK I went back to re-reading _Never Let Go_.

I guess you need that balance, the impetus and you-could-do-anything abandon of youth, with the wisdom and focus of experience.

12-27-10 09:10 PM - Post#667485    

Excellent post. My favorite section is the Barry Ross (and the early Kbell section with Tracey). I got a lot out of the injury section, too, I guess, but does anyone have more information from Barry SINCE the book came out? (Barry's book...)

Daniel John Just handing down what I was handed down... Make a Difference. Live. Love. Laugh. Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude) Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk. Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth. Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights. Reread great books. Say thank you

12-28-10 08:12 AM - Post#667515    

Hey how is it going, I have not picked up the book yet, I will try to do so this weekend but I thought I would jump in with a thought or two anyway. Though the flow of conversation has seemed to drift past the “is dabbling acceptable”, and into the “this guy is a nut” conversation. Could we define dabbling and perhaps who the book was intended for? In regards to the thought that dabblers can reach 80 percent, that is obviously not going to be good enough for an elite athlete trying to excel in his chosen field. But for everybody else perhaps it is achievable if the individual spends enough time dabbling each day. Of course for most people finding time can be an issue. From a philosophical stand point, “there are many paths up the side of a mountain, some long, some short, some easy, some not so much, but they all lead to the top of the mountain”. If dabbling for the sake of dabbling, with no clearly defined goal is a person’s obsession he will most likely be unsuccessful but is that because of his training method or because of his lack of a clearly defined goal. On the other hand if his dabbling is goal oriented would this not be the concept of cross training, or muscle confusion at work. Granted, for athletes with a very specific goal like Olympic or power lifters or sprinters or marathon runners it would seem that the needs and the training methods are pretty clearly defined, but if we are talking about athletes that play ball or hit people for a living were there needs get a little fuzzy, then perhaps goal oriented dabbling is not a bad thing. However I believe that you need consistency and intensity in your training as well as depth and width of understanding, if dabbling is defined as no effort and low intensity training where athletes only scratch the surface of a subject, than forget my entire post. ;)…

Improvise, Adapt, and Flow...

12-28-10 08:33 AM - Post#667517    

• Dan John Said:

Dan,

Didn't know if you were aware, but he does have a website/forum:

http://www.bearpowered.com/

12-28-10 12:46 PM - Post#667580    

I forgot all about this site. It became really inactive and I simply forgot.

ON the road to mastery, dabbling is the worst route (if I can say that). Joseph Campbell, one of my intellectual heroes, freely admitted that his career "dabbling" in various religious traditions kept him from a true experience. (I also have to say that until close to his death, his understanding of his childhood faith was "dabbled" at best...)

I do like your point about this discussion. I never wanted this to dip into "Tim is a fake." I think that if you read Art DeVany's new book about a guy who dips so deeply into "this," and read Tim's book about a guy who just dips a toe, you find a really wonderful mental conversation.

I think my life has been shaped by my ability to really dive in deeply into something yet still be able to keep my eyes on "reality." I have a buddy who went really deep into a cult like "thing" related to fitness (and please don't write "crossfit' because it wasn't that) and couldn't believe the money (the number staggered me) that he had spent on something that was a failure for him.

So, I think that Tim's service to many is showing them "this," but the journey from what he shows as a swing, for example, to, in my case, Senior RKC is a long deep swim in the deep deep deep waters. It takes a lot of humility to get "it" handed to you and keep going deeper. I think I just said I have humility, which is probably an oxymoron.

Regardless. I hope we can actually veer this discussion into something IN the book. Like someone tries a supplement or ART or whatever and is cured. Still, a great discussion.

Daniel John Just handing down what I was handed down... Make a Difference. Live. Love. Laugh. Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude) Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk. Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth. Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights. Reread great books. Say thank you

12-28-10 02:00 PM - Post#667588    

I just found an ART practitioner near me. I plan on going soon.

12-28-10 02:53 PM - Post#667602    

• RyanH Said:

Ryan, I'm eager to hear your thoughts after the visit. I'm planning to go through the 10-session Rolfing process this spring.

12-28-10 03:28 PM - Post#667612    

• Laree Said:

I had a few rolfing sessions years ago. Quite painful, but well worth it afterward.

Luckily I don't have any major issues to address, so hopefully I won't need many sessions.

12-29-10 03:36 PM - Post#667768    

I find myself reading the book in the same kind of jumpy fashion in which it seems to have been written. Has anyone tried the the PAGG supplements, or is anyone on the cusp of a fat-loss phase and willing to try these.

If anything, I think that this book is great for the dirty tricks to get fat off of your frame. I'm trying to do one thing this year, learn and progress in the Olympic lifts, so I don't want to get too far sidetracked, but I will pull out all the stops the next time that I'm looking to take a month and attack the fat.

Between the PAGG or maybe AGG supplements he talks about, ice baths, showers, or packs, some 3X8 complexes, and a solid approach to food (not necessarily from the book- maybe Velocity or something with solid food) I think it will be fun to see the result of a one month battle.

I think this book is hard to discuss because it's very pragmatic and at times contradictory (don't have fruit outside of a re-feed day, have some fruit in the morning to blunt blood sugar fluctuation, have grapefruit juice to help the action of so and so).

"Every social association that is not face-to-face is injurious to your health." Nassim Nicholas Taleb