05-02-10 05:14 PM - Post#621970    

I'm reading this book(again) by a guy who advocates low reps (2-5) and high sets (5-7, increasing wts. per set) for older lifters. He says it protects joints and provides ample warm up.

I know some of you here use the higher rep (for pump) scheme.

For an older guy, I'd like to hear opinions on this issue. Once again, I'll hang up and listen.

Winded, but not pooped!

05-02-10 05:23 PM - Post#621973    

I can't say that I've heard of that. Who is the author and what is his background? When I think of low reps I would think that would mean heavier weight so that might be harder on joints. Also I'm not sure how that provides ample warmup unless 3 of the 7 sets are warmup sets and 4 are working sets. And as we all know that warmup sets should be just that, light weight used to "warmup" the muscle (for lack of a better word). Honestly I'd have to know more about this guy an the book in general but something just doesn't seem right to me.

05-02-10 05:36 PM - Post#621976    

I'm not older, but I've always lifted using low weight-high rep warmup set(s) and then worked to heavy weight-low rep work sets. Young or old, I just think that works best.

For he today that sheds his blood with mine, shall forever be my brother.

05-02-10 05:36 PM - Post#621977    

It really does not seem like it is out of whack...
I believe I have been reading a logbook that is similar here...

Numerous breaks in the middle of each set makes it kinder and gentler it seems...

But I sort of use the extra reps. in a set, to get the heart pumping more, not less...

GAB

"I live, I lift, I ache, I am." - "I don't mean to be rude, but...junk is for jerks" "No pain, no gain' isn’t a nursery rhyme, and 'only the strong survive" ...Etc... Had to put in this quote... Current Quote "Eat better, train harder, be tougher, think surer and rest morer." ~ Draper Dave Draper **** Age 73 Semper Fi... GAB

05-02-10 07:35 PM - Post#621992    

When I get older I will slow up

It don't matter

05-02-10 07:53 PM - Post#621998    

• cajinjohn Said:

A+

05-02-10 08:39 PM - Post#622001    

Like cajin said, when I am old, maybe I'll change. Right now I'll continue to do what works. Moderately heavy weights and loads of reps and sets. Using these suggestions might lead to the reason why people think that older people can't gain muscle. Easy and gentle doesn't get it done. If you are looking to get toned, almost any exercise is better than nothing. If you want to gain muscle, there is only one way - work your butt off.

Judge John "You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves." - Abraham Lincoln "I live, I lift, I ache, I am." - Dave Draper "Moderation assures mediocrity -- nice, safe. Mediocrity is for the mediocre -- simple, okay. The intense rule; the mediocre follow." - Dave Draper Every day innocent plants are killed by vegetarians. Help stop the slaughter. EAT MEAT!

Re: ps and sets for older lifters.
05-02-10 09:02 PM - Post#622021    

• RAYME Said:

Reading Brooks Kubik again?

What we've got here is... failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach.

05-02-10 09:41 PM - Post#622033    

Is that book "Gray Hair & Black Iron"?
If so, what did you think of it?

I don't see why age should be any reason not to do ALL the different set/rep schemes. It's not the age that determines our ability, it's the condition of the body.

Some of this, some of that, no one more dominant than another.

Life's too short to worry about longevity.

05-02-10 09:51 PM - Post#622036    

• cajinjohn Said:

Seems to me it all comes down to your own body- medical conditions, past injuries, etc. I'm only 30 and there are some things I absolutely cannot do because of the way my body is constructed (i.e., badly). On the other hand, Uncle Al is twice my age and DLs over 400.

"Powerful you have become. Overhead squats I sense in you." -Gaz/Yoda I would like to come back as a palo santo tree on the weather side of an island, so that I could be, myself, a perfect witness, and look, mute, and wave my arms. -Annie Dillard

05-02-10 09:57 PM - Post#622037    

Hey, I'm still mentally getting even with people who were stronger than me in the summer of '67. Ha! Let's see what you can do in the NEXT five years, wiseguys.

Life's too short to worry about longevity.

Re: ps and sets for older lifters.
05-03-10 08:26 AM - Post#622062    

• Sweatn Said:

I wasn't going to bring his name up again. I just thinks it's interesting all the different opinions on this stuff. Personally.......I don't know .

Winded, but not pooped!

05-03-10 10:14 AM - Post#622089    

Periodization exercising...Jan and Terry Todd 1985 book...
Been around for some time, I read about it in Bill Pearls book "Getting Stronger"

It mentions what OP talks about (stages though)...

Regards

"I live, I lift, I ache, I am." - "I don't mean to be rude, but...junk is for jerks" "No pain, no gain' isn’t a nursery rhyme, and 'only the strong survive" ...Etc... Had to put in this quote... Current Quote "Eat better, train harder, be tougher, think surer and rest morer." ~ Draper Dave Draper **** Age 73 Semper Fi... GAB

05-03-10 10:29 AM - Post#622093    

• Neander Said:

Yes, that's the book, although it is for older, "experienced" lifters (that's not me), and he advocates heavy lifting, which I'm not into that because I'm a little old to start that. Would be okay if I'd been lifting since I was a teen (which I did, but I stopped).

Winded, but not pooped!

Reps and sets for older lifters.
05-03-10 01:47 PM - Post#622141    

• RAYME Said:

Oh, so you do know this type routine is not for you, and you're just asking out of curiosity. You scared me for a moment. I was thinking, "If Ray thinks his shoulders, knees, and lower back hurt now, ...."

Yes, the approach is a good one for older strength athletes. In fact, many masters-level powerlifters use it successfully. In my opinion, it otherwise sucks for senior citizens.

Be strong. Be in shape. Be a man among men, regardless of your age or circumstances.

Re: ps and sets for older lifters.
05-03-10 02:35 PM - Post#622153    

• RAYME Said:

From subsequent posts, I've learned that this is from Kubik's latest and from that view - of a lifter who's trained for strength throughout his career and wants to continue - this makes sense.

But for those of us who have had signficant breaks in training and/or who no longer have the development of 1rm strength as the goal, it leaves a lot to be desired for the latter and can be counter-productive for the former.

For any more, ahem, "mature" IOLers who are coming back to the weights to improve health, strength, and appearance (that's the correct order, imo) adopting a program of multi-joint movements, starting light, journalizing, and forgetting about 1RM's is the way to go, imo. (This summation from Dave Whitley at yesterday's kettlebell workship.)

And for real life IOL examples of mature lifters who've developed and maintained their outstanding physiques over an extended period of time, one cannot go wrong by reading Uncle Al's and Judge John's workout logs. Al goes a little more for the power side of things as a competitive lifter while John is now more pure physique. But from those logs one can see day to day how to deal with the various physical issues that are common to us +50 folks yet maintain that consistency for steady improvement.

Bill2 Integrity is what you do when you think nobody is watching.

Re: ps and sets for older lifters.
05-03-10 03:00 PM - Post#622162    

From: http://www.davedraper.com/draper-current-articl e.html

I suspect the younger generation -- the newer and less-scarred lifters -- hangs out at other sites where muscle and might are more technically and tightly wrapped, and rules and regs are dutifully emphasized. I agree, order is important and practice makes perfect and time is an invaluable investment.

However, after enough years, the road of travel broadens and boundaries widen and goals merge. Sets and reps and poundages become a blur, and exertion and focus and adaptation become the standard laws of engagement.

The body becomes supersensitive, the mind more aware, the spirit increasingly stimulated and the instincts deeply aroused and ready to lead. Stand back and get out of the way.

I crisscross the body from head to toe with a complementary arrangement of exercises we all know, love and hate, each with its own adaptation to suit our needs, desires and capabilities. The application of this loose training technique is not sloppy and hapless, nor a sneaky and sniveling copout. It’s necessity and authenticity hard at work.

Here are three more all-new, totally original, never-before-released snap workouts to carry us three workouts closer to next week. We’re in no rush, but we’re determined.

Precede each workout with fifteen vigorous minutes of rope-tucks and incline leg raises, hyperextensions and truck-pushes. Fortify your system with Bomber Blend before and after every workout (30 minutes) and at breakfast when perfect nutrition is craved.

Day 1) Chest, lats, shoulders, legs (tris, grip)

Close-grip bench press (slow, cool, smart, no-max reps) supersetted with bentover row (4 sets x 8 to 10 reps) -- 45- to 60-degree dumbbell incline press supersetted with straight-arm pullover (4 sets x 8 to 12 reps) – One-arm side-arm lateral raise (sets x 6 to 10 reps) -- Farmer walks, up stairs if possible (2 sets x 25 yards)

It’s not the workout, it’s the workman.

Day 2) Biceps, triceps, legs (grip, shoulders, back, chest)

Standing barbell curl (4 sets x 6 to 10 reps) supersetted with lying or overhead triceps extension (4 sets x 8 to 12 reps) -- Dumbbell alternate curl supersetted with machine dips (4 sets x 6 to 10 reps) -- Walking lunges with light dumbbells (4 sets x 6 to 12 reps)

Each exercise, set and rep is a research project.

Day 3) Shoulders, back, legs (bis and tris and grip)

Front press supersetted with wide-grip pulldowns (4 sets x 6 to 12 reps) -- Bentover lateral raise (4 sets x 6 to 12 reps) – Seated lat row (4 sets x 6 to 12 reps) -- Dumbbell squats and calf raises (4 sets x 6 to 12 reps)

We press on for the goal in our hand.

Did we miss something – cable crossovers, pushdowns, outer pecs? No matter, we’ll do it next time.

Beware B-50s and B-60s: Furious blasting sessions have been known to produce more than instant gratification, including rips, tears, strains, pains and no gains, and possibly worrisome, troublesome halts in the flow of training and growing and laughing and playing.

Do not withdraw from intensity, but do not wreak havoc. Be smart, engaged and attentive. Be nice to your trembling bod.

Rule of thumb: Blast according to the thickness of your skull.

On second thought, you might apply the pinky rule: Replace blast with snap, crackle and pop.

Go... Godspeed... Dave

Reps and sets for older lifters.
05-03-10 05:37 PM - Post#622188    

Pain is weakness, leaving the body!!!

• Quoting:

Got to know your limitations

"I live, I lift, I ache, I am." - "I don't mean to be rude, but...junk is for jerks" "No pain, no gain' isn’t a nursery rhyme, and 'only the strong survive" ...Etc... Had to put in this quote... Current Quote "Eat better, train harder, be tougher, think surer and rest morer." ~ Draper Dave Draper **** Age 73 Semper Fi... GAB

Re: ps and sets for older lifters.
05-03-10 07:58 PM - Post#622211    

• Bill Keyes Said:

Thanks for the props, Bill!

Judge John "You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves." - Abraham Lincoln "I live, I lift, I ache, I am." - Dave Draper "Moderation assures mediocrity -- nice, safe. Mediocrity is for the mediocre -- simple, okay. The intense rule; the mediocre follow." - Dave Draper Every day innocent plants are killed by vegetarians. Help stop the slaughter. EAT MEAT!

05-03-10 08:26 PM - Post#622217    

Yea, Bill, thanks. My check's on the way. (Don't expect John to pay up though. He's almost as cheap as Willie.)

Be strong. Be in shape. Be a man among men, regardless of your age or circumstances.

05-03-10 08:28 PM - Post#622218    

Sorry, Bill, but Al's right. No check coming from me. Wicked is frugal - I'm just cheap (and easy).

Judge John "You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves." - Abraham Lincoln "I live, I lift, I ache, I am." - Dave Draper "Moderation assures mediocrity -- nice, safe. Mediocrity is for the mediocre -- simple, okay. The intense rule; the mediocre follow." - Dave Draper Every day innocent plants are killed by vegetarians. Help stop the slaughter. EAT MEAT!

05-03-10 08:53 PM - Post#622221    

Well, I was just showing respect for my elders.

Bill2 Integrity is what you do when you think nobody is watching.

Re: ps and sets for older lifters.
05-04-10 02:55 PM - Post#622353    

• RAYME Said:

I have learned one main principle during my few years of exercising with weights. Don't listen too much to other people telling you what and how to do it. Listen mainly to your body telling you the right or wrong way. I learned that item the old fashioned way, by hurting myself and having to take time off to heal up.

Here is my current routine:

Primary warn-up with arm movements and bending.
Secondary warm-up using about half the weight I will be lifting. About 15-20 mins total.

All exercises are 4 sets of 12, 10, 8 and 6 reps. I add 2.5 lbs per DB or 5 lbs total for each set.

Day 1 - DB Curls, DB Arnold Press, DB Raise (monkey curls).

Day 2 - Step-ups, One Leg Calf Raises, Semi-Stiff Leg Dead Lift.

Day 3 - One Arm Cable Cross Overs, Cable Pull Downs, One Arm Bent Over Rows.

Day 4 - Off

That currently works well for me. You will need to develop your own by experimenting. For example; I don't do squats due to leg and hip problems but maybe you can do squats.

I don't use heavy weights. For curls I start with 2 - 30 lb DB's and end with 37.5 lb. But when I first began lifting I was using a pair of 10 lb DB's.

05-04-10 03:13 PM - Post#622357    

I don't see anything wrong with the advice to use low reps and high sets...provided that you are working submaximally. Naturally, if you use heavy weight with the low reps and high sets, a couple of things will happen. You'll gain strength. You'll gain some injuries.

Ray - if you try this style of sets and reps, make sure you're working well with your abilities. By this I mean...take a weight that you can do 10 good, solid reps with and then use that for multiple sets of 2-5 reps. By limiting the rest between sets...you'll keep the intensity high but spare your joints.

Don't get in a hurry to change, though. If what you're doing now is working...keep on working it.

Wicked

"I'm in good shape for the shape I'm in." "Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me." John 14:6

05-04-10 04:52 PM - Post#622372    

I agree with Willie in that I imagine this could be a good way to train if it is in the right range. This is the kind of thing Hepburn and Ditillo wrote about, very possibly influenced Kubik.

At any age, you have to be physically prepared for the training you do. If you aren't, the laws of physics will probably catch up with you. For you, Ray, I'd keep in mind that if you build strength on top of problems, your problems usually get worse. You have to address the problems first.

The most important test a lifter has to pass is the test of time. -Jon Cole

05-05-10 12:24 AM - Post#622460    

My experience, which is just based on coaching a few Olympic lifters who were in the 40-60 age range and did well, is that if you are older but still want to be strong at a certain thing, like OL, but I suppose it could be discuss or bench press, or whatever, is to do that activity a couple of times a week for a fairly low volume, but as much intensity as they can safely manage, not pushing too hard... then to add to that 2-3 other workouts which are more traditional "fitness" workouts, even up to and including the typical YMCA or globo gym circut of machines... or it could be some decent KB work, or some bodybuilding type stuff... but whatever it is, make it stuff which is easy on the joints, not too stressfull, but adds to overall fitness and gives you some strength work that doesnt tear you down.

Just my two cents worth.

glenn

Pendlay.com

Reps and sets for older lifters.
05-05-10 09:20 AM - Post#622517    

• glennpendlay Said:

Thanks for joining us, Glenn. It's an honor to have you here.

Don't want to seguey too far from Ray's needs, but could you just lay out an example of the weekly routines you set up for your oldest lifters?

Also, I don't understand how one works with "as much intensity as [he] can safely manage" without "pushing too hard". Do you recommend not going to failure, even with heavy singles? Do you keep the poundages at less than 90% 1RM, even when peaking for a meet?

Are you going to stick around? I don't think I'm the only one who wants to pick your brain.

Be strong. Be in shape. Be a man among men, regardless of your age or circumstances.

Re: ps and sets for older lifters.
05-05-10 10:07 AM - Post#622534    

• AAnnunz Said:

I vote for a new thread. :~)

Re: ps and sets for older lifters.
05-05-10 11:03 AM - Post#622556    

• Laree Said:

What we've got here is... failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach.

05-05-10 11:45 AM - Post#622565    

By the way, how our training needs to change over the years is one of Glenn's tentative topics for the bash in October. We'll film it for dvd for the rest of the crew who can't make the trip to Kansas City.

Re: ps and sets for older lifters.
05-05-10 11:46 AM - Post#622566    

• AAnnunz Said:

you could get your shiny-headed self to the bash, you know. just sayin.

Above all else, guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life. Prov 4:23 "I'm not a doctor just someone that gets injured a lot." irondawg "Confidence - the absence of doubt - is a distillation of hope, faith and knowing." Dave Draper, BISS, page 65 "Few things are more fulfilling than personal progress." Dave Draper, newsletter of 4/2/09 100 Day Burpee Challenge 08 Survivor squatting makes me sleepy

Reps and sets for older lifters.
05-05-10 01:46 PM - Post#622587    

I would love to, Bill; however, my beloved has asked me to take her to New England to visit family and see the autumn colors in that timeframe. I don't get a vote.

Yes, I know what I am. No one needs to say it.

Be strong. Be in shape. Be a man among men, regardless of your age or circumstances.

Re: ps and sets for older lifters.
05-05-10 02:10 PM - Post#622594    

• Sweatn Said:

I think that's a great idea, too, Laree. I was thinking of doing that, then became apprehensive about overstepping my bounds, not knowing if you and our esteemed guest had discussed whether or not he had the time and inclination to be bombarded with follow up questions and additional threads. Let's face it. Mr. Pendlay has a lot to offer all of us, and once you open the flood gates,....

Be strong. Be in shape. Be a man among men, regardless of your age or circumstances.

Re: ps and sets for older lifters.
05-05-10 02:13 PM - Post#622595    

• AAnnunz Said:

you need to do what the Michael Keaton character did in Multiplicity

Above all else, guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life. Prov 4:23 "I'm not a doctor just someone that gets injured a lot." irondawg "Confidence - the absence of doubt - is a distillation of hope, faith and knowing." Dave Draper, BISS, page 65 "Few things are more fulfilling than personal progress." Dave Draper, newsletter of 4/2/09 100 Day Burpee Challenge 08 Survivor squatting makes me sleepy

05-05-10 02:17 PM - Post#622596    

She's Sicilian, Bill. Need I say more?

Be strong. Be in shape. Be a man among men, regardless of your age or circumstances.

05-05-10 02:36 PM - Post#622599    

Don't wanna mess with those Sicilians. Mine's only half Sicilian and I don't provoke her....

Wicked

"I'm in good shape for the shape I'm in." "Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me." John 14:6

05-05-10 03:09 PM - Post#622608    

• AAnnunz Said:

capisco

Above all else, guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life. Prov 4:23 "I'm not a doctor just someone that gets injured a lot." irondawg "Confidence - the absence of doubt - is a distillation of hope, faith and knowing." Dave Draper, BISS, page 65 "Few things are more fulfilling than personal progress." Dave Draper, newsletter of 4/2/09 100 Day Burpee Challenge 08 Survivor squatting makes me sleepy

Re: ps and sets for older lifters.
05-07-10 01:50 PM - Post#622955    

• Sweatn Said:

I don't think Laree and Kris like me anymore.

Winded, but not pooped!

Re: ps and sets for older lifters.
05-07-10 02:10 PM - Post#622959    

• Quoting:

RM
I think you mentioned about depression once or twice, have you checked into it of late???



Regards
GAB

"I live, I lift, I ache, I am." - "I don't mean to be rude, but...junk is for jerks" "No pain, no gain' isn’t a nursery rhyme, and 'only the strong survive" ...Etc... Had to put in this quote... Current Quote "Eat better, train harder, be tougher, think surer and rest morer." ~ Draper Dave Draper **** Age 73 Semper Fi... GAB

Re: ps and sets for older lifters.
05-07-10 03:54 PM - Post#622984    

• Gabster Said:

I don't remember saying anything about being depressed; I probably come off that way sometimes because this stuff has been very frustrating to me and there are so many opinions and different ways of doing this stuff...and I haven't found MY way yet....at least the one that makes ME happy. Some say do rehab/prehab; have lots of ideas in this thread as far as exercises and routines (all good). I know what "I" want to do, just gotta figure out how and if I can.

Winded, but not pooped!

Re: ps and sets for older lifters.
05-07-10 05:27 PM - Post#623000    

• RAYME Said:

Ray,

Hope I am not overstepping my bounds here, but, what are your goals? I have noticed that a lot of times, when one is unsure of what to do, it is because a firm goal has not been established.

So, what is it you are wanting to accomplish?

glenn

Pendlay.com

Re: ps and sets for older lifters.
05-12-10 12:27 PM - Post#623656    

• glennpendlay Said:

Sorry it's taken me so long to respond, Glenn. Work has been crazy busy.

When I started doing this 3 yrs. ago I wanted to get back in shape and build some muscle. Found out the hard way I'm not 20 or 30 or 40 anymore. I still would like to add some muscle, but have decided that's probably not likely for "who knows what reason". And you are right, I'm not sure what I want now, except to be able to keep moving. I need to exercise for health reasons (although MD says everything looks great), and I enjoy exercising with weights more than any other way. My problem is, I guess, I see what others my age do here, and I can't figure out why I can't, knowing I don't have the experience, and I do have a lot of aches and pains. That's why I've gone to 2 wo's per week, but other than that, not sure what to do. Al has helped me w/workout suggestions, and I'm following that now. I did WW's "Getting Started" w/o for a while and it seemed to work fine. I just want to keep with the basic stuff.

Winded, but not pooped!

Re: ps and sets for older lifters.
05-12-10 01:44 PM - Post#623662    

• RAYME Said:

 

Re: ps and sets for older lifters.
05-12-10 01:50 PM - Post#623664    

• Gabster Said:

 

Re: ps and sets for older lifters.
05-12-10 02:13 PM - Post#623672    

I have relearned the value of high reps.

Peace ~ Bear

Re: ps and sets for older lifters.
05-15-10 12:25 PM - Post#624031    

• RAYME Said:

I've been using low reps and high sets based on some old Doug Hepburn routines for a couple of months.

So far I like it a lot.

It's still early in the game.

We shall see how it works out in the long run.

Re: ps and sets for older lifters.
05-15-10 12:45 PM - Post#624036    

I have been reading Arnolds Encyclopedia BB 2nd edition... He mentions "Instinctive training"...

Gives that term to "Dave Draper" from days of old when they were training partners...

So sometimes I have to think...
Folks are looking for a different direction, so they also read, and feel... Hey, this might be what I am after and will help...

Similar to high reps, low weight or low reps, high weight...Now look at it as if you are in control...Because you are...

You don't have a trainer telling you what to do, you do it on your instincts...Plus read as we do here...

Social folks, like Arnold used others ideas (training partners) while others, just did it their way, and trained...

Been going on like that for eons...

Movie "Hard Times" comes to mind...

Good one to rent over the week-end...

Regards,
GAB

"I live, I lift, I ache, I am." - "I don't mean to be rude, but...junk is for jerks" "No pain, no gain' isn’t a nursery rhyme, and 'only the strong survive" ...Etc... Had to put in this quote... Current Quote "Eat better, train harder, be tougher, think surer and rest morer." ~ Draper Dave Draper **** Age 73 Semper Fi... GAB