04-01-08 10:13 PM - Post#427403    

Can someone explain to me or direct me to some litriture how "too much training can burnout a central nervous system please"?

I see this everywhere.

This comment does not make sense.

Nice legs-shame about the face

04-01-08 10:40 PM - Post#427409    

The CNS behaves much like your muscles. The tension and stress of heavy lifting and hard workouts fatigues it.

Muscles can recover from some of the hardest workouts in 48 hours, yet Mike Mentzer had guys needing a week or longer between workouts. That was to allow the CNS to recover (it's slow and for some of us terribly so).

One thing I found out the hard way a couple of years ago is that, just like muscles, the CNS needs to warm up for heavy lifting. I'd come in to a morning workout and the first heavy exercise was just a bust. My trainer switched the order around and put some modest ab exercise in first before the big lift and by the time of the heavy work I could get the intensity needed.

You can see the same effect when the first set seems really heavy but by the second it seems much easier.

Not a technical dissertation on the thing, but I hope that helps.

Come visit my log, please.

04-01-08 11:12 PM - Post#427410    

Andy, I'll try to find some direct links for you, but my own experience is that when the CNS needs a break, it will slow your body down until it catches up. When you really push yourself hard through a heavy volume of lifting, you may feel exhausted the next day - or next couple of days even if your muscles are not sore. I think this is a CNS refelx to keep you from damaging yourself on a routine basis.

...That's a start - I'm sure you will get a better explanation than this one.

"Vinny, Vidi, Vici"

04-02-08 07:28 AM - Post#427451    

Lets say you are the owner of an independant hardware store. You have ten full time and five part time employees. Business is good, but predictable. One day you experience a sudden increase in customers wanting to buy your merchandise. You dont know where they are coming from, but it is at least a 40% increase in customers. Your one cashier cannot handle it and your two customer service reps on the floor are swamped......what do you do? do you immediately run out and hire more people, do you knock out a wall to increase your square footage? of course not--hiring and training employees is expensive as is re-modeling and expansion. Not only are these things expensive, but you dont know how long this new business is going to last--it would be stupid to invest in new employees and additional square footage if this is a one day increase.

So what you do? You make internal adaptations--you set up a folding table with a calculator and a cashbox and that becomes your second register. you call out three guys from the stock room and turn them into customer service associates on the spot, you call in your part-timers if possible. In other words, you take what you already have, move it around to meet the increased demands. You cannot do this forever, but it works in the short term.

Your body works in a similar manner. When a demand is placed on the body ( ie resistance training) your body will FIRST respond with internal re-configuration and usually this is in the form of neural adaption. Your body will actually change its nervous system around in order to meet the demands placed on it--Building muscle is expensive from a metabolic standpoint and this is the last thing your body will do. In an attempt to preserve its resources, the body will invariably attempt to stop you, the soulful occupant of the body from inflicting any further load or demand on it.

So what does this have to do with the CNS? Well if you stay within a set rep range, then it will be much easier for the body to adapt, which means it gets better at stopping your progress because it knows what to expect. When you occasionally change up your rep ranges, its harder for the body to adjust for it and it has no choice but to make metabbolic changes. REMEMBER, when you place a load on the body, it resonds, but it responds in order to be "prepared" for the next time...if you come back next time with the same load, it it much easier for it to inhibit you and this is why even the best programs, that advocate the same rep ranges, go stale after awhile.

A lifter who is primarily lifting for "strength" should focus on lower reps, but then would be very wise to occasionally venture in the middle and higher rep ranges. The bodybuilder type would be best to stick to higher rep ranges, but would be wise to occasionally hit the low reps

I know that conventional internet lifting wisdom says that higher reps dont build strength, but I disagree, if you are doing a given weight for ten reps and then 6 weeks later you are doing an additional 20lbs for ten reps, then you have gotten stronger---now how it translates to a one rep max is another story--I believe it will increase the one rep max, either directly or indirectly and in most cases it gives you a greater foundation or base to grow that one rep max from. When I was competing, I did reps as high as 30 and many laughed at me and said it was a waste, but those occasional higher reps gave me increased stamina and muscular endurance which meant I could train a heck of a lot harder when doing the lower reps. One way or another it helped the bottom line.

The key word is to "occasionally" leave your normal rep range. maybe every 4th workout or so. You keep the nervous "off guard" and you will get a lot more growth longevity out of a 5x5 if you occasionally mix it up with other rep ranges. Just like a football team that has a great running game, will get more out of their ground game with the occasional pass play--if all they ever do is run, it makes it much easer for the defense to shut them down--same thing is true of your body.

keith

04-02-08 09:19 AM - Post#427485    

Great post Keith!

04-02-08 09:23 AM - Post#427487    

Very cool!

"I got it from my momma"

04-02-08 09:36 AM - Post#427496    

Generally, overtraining or the negative side effects of overtraining are CNS related. (Do not discount the endocrine system either.)

Mark it Zero.

04-02-08 10:37 AM - Post#427531    

Keith is a great clarifier.

Central nevous system
04-02-08 10:46 AM - Post#427540    

Nice to see you posting Keith.

What we've got here is... failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach.

04-02-08 02:16 PM - Post#427676    

Keith, thank you, your post really helps me.

04-02-08 02:52 PM - Post#427686    

• Keith_Wassung Said:

Great post.

Cliff Notes version.

Periodize - don't do the same thing every time

Do something different every so often with higher reps

Real the book (his post) for the reasoning why.

"It is not an uncommon experience for people to talk and argue a great deal about something without anybody bothering to define precisely what it is." - Ross J.S. Hoffman I would like to see the truth clearly before it is too late. - Sartre We must begin by a definition, although definition involves a mental effort and therefore repels. - Hilaire Belloc

04-02-08 03:03 PM - Post#427691    

Keith, all...

Is my scheme of Monday = Full body body building style, Wed. Full Body Power Lifting style, and Friday Full Body Cross Fit style completey messed up or is there a something worthwhile to my madness? I ask because I'm essentially doing what Keith is saying, but cycling every workout rather than once in a while.

My goal is to be a bit bigger, a lot stronger and very fit FWIW.

I'm not a skitzo in any other aspect BTW:)

Cliff

04-02-08 03:06 PM - Post#427693    

• Cliff Said:

My take is this is a good routine. In all three cases you are training full body. 3 days a week. Different styles. Sounds like a good plan to me.

One question - does your bodybuilding routine leave you 'more' sore? If so you may want to have 2 days off after it, then only 1 day off after the others. If the Crossfit leaves you the most sore, then 2 days after that instead. See my point?

Obviously soreness is not always indicative of muscular stimulation nor recovery time needed, but I would rather have you doing your powerlifting routine NOT sore than sore :)

"It is not an uncommon experience for people to talk and argue a great deal about something without anybody bothering to define precisely what it is." - Ross J.S. Hoffman I would like to see the truth clearly before it is too late. - Sartre We must begin by a definition, although definition involves a mental effort and therefore repels. - Hilaire Belloc

04-02-08 09:50 PM - Post#427849    

Thanks Keef

Nice legs-shame about the face

04-02-08 09:51 PM - Post#427851    

• DanMartin Said:

That's enough for me.

Nice legs-shame about the face

04-02-08 10:03 PM - Post#427859    

Andy, also consider it's the "most bang for the buck" exercises that are the leading cause of CNS warp. Generally, it's doing them too long or too often. Not doing them too hard.

Mark it Zero.

04-02-08 10:19 PM - Post#427864    

• DanMartin Said:

Now THAT is an interesting point to take heed of. Is there any upside to wearing out your CNS? Does it learn to adapt more quickly or get stronger or anything?

Central nevous system
04-02-08 10:22 PM - Post#427865    

Look at hard training as a learned behavior. The more you train hard, the harder you can train. It takes time, sweat and patience.

Mark it Zero.

Re: Central nevous system
04-02-08 11:30 PM - Post#427875    

• Andy Mitchell Said:

I see the comment a lot as well. When I read that comment, it tells me someone is repeating rubbish - and is a poor judge at that.

The opposite is actually true. Most of those dreaded plateaus we hit can be remediated by innervation training - doing things to enhance performance of the CNS and the mind/muscle connection.

All things considered, the nervous system cannot 'burn out'. Exhaustion can come about from various sources, including a diet too low in sodium ruining cellular uptake of other electrolytes. People burn out, not nervous systems. Reasons from burn out include monotonous training, confusing a set of exercises with a well developed program, emotional issues bodybuilding cannot solve, emotional upsets in life, etc. Add poor diet.

04-02-08 11:42 PM - Post#427878    

• DanMartin Said:

I've heard this thousands of times with 49 years of training - from bodybuilders, in the gyms, etc. But when I go to physiological and neurophysiological resources, such ideas have no validity.

For starters, the brain can be looked upon - in one perspective - as part of the endrocrine system. Given the primacy of the amygdala, it's pretty hard to separate emotion, endocrines, knee jerk reactions, etc. given the integrated holism we are.

Overtraining? Vince Gironda introduced it. Arthur Jones gave it special character, then Stuart McRobert introduced his fictional guy Hard Gainer. And a bizillion bodybuilders never moved out of the early 70s even though neuroscience and exercise physiology were introducing a lot of science. It looks more like "overtraining" is a fossil from the 70s than a clear cut observable physiological condition.

Actually most over trained athletes have under developed CNS functions. First, standard sagital plane dominated training leads to faulty neuromuscular recruitment patterns (i.e., unnatural ones), leading to neuromuscular confusion, then injuries. Secondly, observation in any gym reveals all sorts of muscular imbalances and poor understanding of proper form - which means proper neuromuscular recruitment. In that sense, improper and poor use of the CNS results in overtraining symptoms - and that calls into question those symptoms even being overtraining so much as poor training.

Sticking to a limited repetroire of exercises further blunts the CNS by relying on a limited number of neural pathways/motor units. Programmed training variety can fix that one pretty easy.

Ironically, more volume can lead to progressive intensity training - just the opposite of bodybuilding traditionalism's myth-taken idea of over training. Perhaps overtraining really just means UnderThinking!

04-03-08 02:18 AM - Post#427896    

I'm not to keen reading thoughts repeated from scientific data.
I prefer to hear it from the diggers in the trenches.

Nice legs-shame about the face

04-03-08 06:07 AM - Post#427898    

• DanMartin Said:

I would agree that the big bang for the buck costs you more CNS wise, but I disagree regarding effort - training hard is what burns out the CNS, not training too long or too much. That burns out the system in general, more endocrine.

The most important test a lifter has to pass is the test of time. -Jon Cole

04-03-08 06:16 AM - Post#427899    

Budhi, as for the genesis of the concept - I can't specifically recall if Gironda was the first to use the word "overtraining" but the concept is mentioned going way before him - read some of the classics on

http://ditillo2.blogspot.com

or http://www.sandowplus.co.uk

it goes way back.

The nervous system can certainly burn out, this is fairly well established in science. The chemistry of the nervous system can get depleted, the ability to create strong and fast "FIRE" impulses for the muscles decreases, timing and coordination suffer, force production suffers, progress grinds to a halt.

The term CNS fatigue is just so often used interchangeably with other words where overtraining, fatigue, or something more general might be more accurate. Everyone who gets tired these days says "oh my poor CMS is fried" and many have never stressed their CNS a day in their life.

The exercises that really bang on the CNS - demand a lot of nervous impulse - are not things like squats or bench presses but exercises done with a lot of focused effort and straining, done reactively with a lot of speed, and those that are complex and have a high skill component.

Throwing a med ball for distance is pretty CNS intensive. Kettlebell snatches, despite the puny weight - CNS intensive. Gironda style 8x8 training on the squat - horribly hard, but the CNS isn't the main sufferer there.

The most important test a lifter has to pass is the test of time. -Jon Cole

04-03-08 09:14 AM - Post#427958    

• ccrow Said:

Training hard makes infrequent training a necessity. That allows for CNS recovery. It isn't a coincidence that the Bulgarians just do the 2 lifts and squats. They wouldn't recover.

Mark it Zero.

04-03-08 09:17 AM - Post#427961    

• Andy Mitchell Said:

That's akin to the position of the Flat Earth Society!
Those in the trenches still read Arthur Jones and mike Mentzer, confusing their writings with science - perhaps only evidencing either a native lack of curiousity, or a feudal kowtowing to self-proclaimed authoritarianism. All things considered, the trenches are an immense gap away from a growing data driven base of knowledge upon which one can get results.

04-03-08 09:20 AM - Post#427964    

• ccrow Said:

Thank you. However, ascribing everything to CNS fatigue begs the issue. We all assume we know what CNS fatigue is but I've yet to see a cogent account - by which I don't mean one written from a bodybuilding perspective but one that is a competent neurological account.

More likely what we're dealing with is endocrine burnout - in worse cases all but shutting down the adrenals. Such material is well documented in the annals of stress medicine.

04-03-08 09:32 AM - Post#427966    

Conversely, we also don't know why or how the muscle truly responds to exercise. We know it does, but not the why or how.

Mark it Zero.

04-03-08 10:05 AM - Post#427978    

• Budhi Said:

Very true, the terms are often used interchangeably, or 'CNS burnout' is wrongly attributed to endocrine burnout...but are the terms mutually exclusive?

I'd attribute adrenal burnout to some of my own issues in the past that likely stemmed from improper training (too hard too often). The only prob is the sympoms are varying and subclinical (short of emptying my bank account to endocrinologist who would likely just tell me I need to lay off stimulants and relax more).

"When [defeat] comes, I won't even notice. I'll be too busy looking good."

04-03-08 10:20 AM - Post#427981    

Budhi - You know the way you say some things could be taken personally - like the comment about the flat earth society. I wouldn't mind if you read the thread about the purpose of the forum.

04-03-08 11:09 AM - Post#427999    

• LarryKreeger Said:

Thanks for pointing out what probably everyone else has been thinking, Larry.

Ken, here's the thread he's asking you to read or re-read. As I told you privately last month, we all know you're very well educated. You don't need to prove it by ridiculing other forum members. Fix this attitude or move along, please. We've lost the extra margin of patience for people who don't respect others here.

04-03-08 11:58 AM - Post#428023    

Think about the "CNS Burnout" concept this way. The CNS controls everything else and therefore acts as a "governing mechanism" that will shut down when the various areas that is in control of are overstressed, overworked, under-rested, under-nourished to prevent the infliction of further damage and loss of homeostasis. So the training may have not directly affected the CNS, but the CNS responds to the work by effecting some sort of a shut down ( kind of like Chef Ramsey on Hells Kitchen--SHUT IT DOWN) not a literal shut down, but enough of one to stop the stress load and allow for recovery.

Even when the body goes in "shock" or a very extreme example, a coma, the body is shutting down as much as possible in the best interests of the entire body to allow the bulk of the available energy and resources to go to where they are needed most.

hope that helps

keith

04-03-08 01:28 PM - Post#428055    

Budhi,

I agree with your points completely, but only because of anecdotal evidence. If these points were not true how to explain big timber loggers?

My brother is a logger in Washington State. He never "works out" but is a large muscular dude who works very hard 5 or 6 days a week for 8-10 hours a day. Hard like few would believe for that matter. Packing a 60lb chain saw to the top of 150' trees to top them before falling them, then falling them, in the mountains. I have trouble packing a rifle up and down them thar hills chasing deer or elk, let alone 75lbs of equipment.

All day long, 5 or 6 days a week.

My son loves to ask his uncle to "make a muscle". I'm amazed everytime I see him flex his "overtrained" muscles.

Cliff

04-03-08 01:36 PM - Post#428059    

• Steve C Said:

Steve,

Each routine leaves me feeling it the next day but by the second day I'm good to go. Once in a while if feeling worn out I will remove one component of the workout. In other words skip a day. I also run on instinct with volume. It seems like once or twice a year I bang my self up in a bike wreck or some such and that gives me a few weeks off too!

Thanks for the feedback!

Cliff

Re: Central nevous system
04-03-08 01:37 PM - Post#428061    

• DanMartin Said:

Definately agree, see my post on my 'lil bro

04-03-08 02:04 PM - Post#428075    

• Laree Said:

Budhi,

Your posts are very interesting to read. Please make the requested adjustments so we can continue to enjoy your perspective.

David

04-03-08 03:32 PM - Post#428108    

• dsun Said:

Yes please!

04-03-08 04:30 PM - Post#428138    

• Keith_Wassung Said:

Keith:
It's more complicated than that. CNS implies both sympathetic and parasympathetic NS. If CNS was one big unit and overtrained (overdone? overcooked?), then you'd expect the person to go into coma or a seizure.
What's important to keep in mind is this: the nervous system and endocrine system are intimately connected, if in fact, not aspects of a larger system. What's generally accounted for as CNS overtraining refers in terms of symptoms to burn ouf of aspects of the endocrine system - such as over production of cortisols (catabolic steroid), then as that's exhausted wholesale adrenal fatigue.

When UCLA sports medicine professor Karlis Ullis was coaching US Olympians in the early 80s he had a breakthrough observation: overtrained athletes' blood work resembled that of aging persons. Now much of aging, due to muscle wasting (those catabolic or tissue destroying cortisols) is directly linked to Metabolic Syndrome - evidencing a whole system breakdown including diminished insulin sensor site sensitivity (type II diabetes onself), osteoporosis (loss of bone mineral density), arthritis, elevated blood lipis, hypertension (elevated blood pressure). That can promote andropause in men and cessation of menstrual cycles in women.

So properly speaking, the entire CNS is not failing but aspects of the NS intimately involved in hormonal activity.

04-03-08 04:35 PM - Post#428145    

• Cliff Said:

The clues are all over the place. Only bodybuilders bulk up to trim down - many other sports involve training hard, staying lean due to the training (Ben Johnson's famous five big Macs for lunch), year round. And those are all fast-twitch fiber dominated sports.

The place were prolonged rest makes sense is due to type IIx fiber converting to type IIa, leaving little reserve. clinical studies show with a prolonged rest, reversion of type IIa to IIx results in a doubling of IIx or more, which means when training resumes there's an elevated volume of IIxs to convert to IIas. What's more, due to satellite cells, perhaps even more result. That has nothing to do with CNS, though.

Lumber jacks and other such activities are more clues to look for. They suggest that intensity is a neurological adaptation to stress, resulting in heightened workload capacity.

Prior to steroids, the old timers were gymnasts and handbalancers as well as bodybuilders and lifters. Many of them got into such intense shape their workouts seem like marathons compared to today's. Also, the were not doing high intensity aerobics resulting in metabolic damage.

Thanks for a great example.

04-03-08 04:42 PM - Post#428149    

Budhi,

Based on your information here, what would be an example of a training program that would honor these parameters?

David

04-03-08 05:48 PM - Post#428187    

• Budhi Said:

Fair enough mate.
Do the flat earth society weight train? how much do they squat?

Nice legs-shame about the face

Re: Central nevous system
04-03-08 06:30 PM - Post#428204    

• Andy Mitchell Said:

I'm interested in this question as well, and wonder about the adaptive effects on the motor neurons of the brain and spinal cord. Also interested in the so called extrapyramidal system, effects on overtraining. Anyone know or have a reference (not forthcoming with Google). Thanks!

04-03-08 06:37 PM - Post#428208    

Budhi,

They asked for a simple explantion and that is what I gave them, of course its more complicated than that, but the whole point of communication is to share ideas, not to impress

04-03-08 08:39 PM - Post#428252    

• Keith_Wassung Said:

The whole point of communication varies with the audience, the topic, and a host of other considerations. Having recently submitted an article combining an interview and introduction to the coaching methods of Scott Abel to one of the major muscle mags, I found I'd bitten off more than I'd bargained for. In other words, to even make sense of his new book I had to come to grips with the harsh reality that 49 years in the Irongame had done a good job of enculturating me in a traditionalist account of muscle building that's a incredibly incomplete picture of what's known. What's more, drilling down also resulted in gaining much more sense of why some methods work for some people in face of the bigger picture most of us just aren't aware of - nor likely to be aware of with magazines that keep publishing the same stuff and forums that keep on repeating it.

What's most daunting about Abel's work - and I should quickly add that I'm not a starry eyed devotee rendering him a guru - is the breadth of research and in-the-gym training he's managed to integrate into a bigger picture than we get elsewhere in bodybuilding. You will find a considerable amount of what he talks about in other coaching disciplines, among coaches like Vern Gambetta and JC Santana.

Abel's first major development in 1991 was Innervation training. In fact, a lot of his research and training principles derives from folks doing work in the neurophysiology of muscle/strength growth. Not only fascinating material but with a lot of practical application for increases in both muscle size and strength, not to mention over all fitness.

Can you imagine my shock and astonishment at reading such a work - after a lifetime in the sport? What an eye opener. Rarely does a major shift in understanding come about, and none have come about of any great significance in my lifetime in bodybuilding until become familiar with Abel's work.

So rather than being out to impress people my aim is to share incredibly useful information for beneficial use by those who'd try it out. Once you get a taste of what he presents, a lot of our old ideas take on a new significance in light of a far bigger picture. And a host of new training options open up. In particular, the role of not just the CNS but also the mind/body connection become real important - down home information.

04-03-08 08:46 PM - Post#428256    

• dsun Said:

There are a number of them out there. As far as a "routine" is concerned, most don't operate within that old way of doing things. Most are called either Hybrid Training or Multiplanar Training.

A standard routine is called 5 Day MET - Metabolic Enhancement Training. Each day is a different routine, and more complex than single plane traditional bodybuilding training. All emphasize Progressive Intensity Training, inclusive of CNS and body/mind connection. I'm not willing to spend close to an hour entering one, and besides the bare bones program would result in a rash of questions.

Iron Man Magazine has a 13 page single spaced article that goes into it in great depth - one I submitted in response to their interest. I defer to their publishing it because the detail of the one version I covered there will take some chewing on!

Meanwhile I'm working on some smaller pieces on that topic as well as an application in book form for "matured athletes" - those of us past 50, well past 50, and excedingly very well past 50!

Re: Central nevous system
04-03-08 09:06 PM - Post#428265    

• f4tune81 Said:

Scott Abel's new book is full of such information (www.scottabel.com), including bibliographic references to peer reviewed scientific publications.

Otherwise, Google is not the best bet. Google has a specialized search engine named Google Scholar that zeros in on scientific and academic publications, saving huge amounts of time.

Please let me know if you come up with good leads!

thanks

04-03-08 09:15 PM - Post#428273    

As a sort of footnote to previous posts, a slight job in memory took me back to a conversation with Bill Pearl of just a few weeks ago. In the midst of it Bill said something that puts it very succinctly: bodybuilding needs to start thinking holistically instead of in fragments. Bill's got considerable depth to him, for those of you who aren't familiar with the great man. It's also noteworthy that at the Weider Muscle Camp of 1989 he predicted that in due time Scott Abel would move bodybuilding in a new direction. He was delighted to learn an article had finally been written for an American publication about Abel.

To get a sense of the bigger picture, a mid 1970s publication still remains a great introduction: Mind as Healer, Mind as Slayer by Kenneth Pelletier. It's out of print but probably can be borrowed by interlibrary loan - the OP copies for sale today run around $130, while I paid about $5 for it back when. His work is based on Hans Seyle's pioneering work on stress - including working out - and its whole system effect on body and mind, literally on how people wear themselves out, often prematurely. Jon Kabat-Zinn's Full Catastrophe Living is an excellent book - actually a workshop - for gaining voluntary control of stressors and stress.

We usually divide body from mind, thus usually our workouts are a blindspot in our daily stress accounting. Seen holistically, it's our entire, full life that brings on the burn out. And the endocrines take the biggest hit. The good news is that there are literally hundreds and hundreds of articles demonstrating you can learn to lower cortisol levels, even research done in San Francisco in 1979 concerning modulating GH levels!

Bill's on to something. Anybody that's watched the DVD of Bill and Dave will know that for sure. So if you haven't watched it, this might be a good time to order a copy of the Two Masters in discussion.

04-03-08 10:11 PM - Post#428298    

Thank you for your thoughts BC, DM and KW, it's very helpful as always.

Nice legs-shame about the face

04-03-08 10:40 PM - Post#428312    

• Budhi Said:

The YMCA triangle of body/mind/spirit is the real deal.

Mark it Zero.

04-04-08 07:04 AM - Post#428345    

Maybe some of the Eastern Philosophers had some insights into these issues with meditation, yoga, not to mention accupuncture and other practices which were handed down from one to another.

Re: Central nevous system
04-04-08 12:41 PM - Post#428484    

• Andy Mitchell Said:

I think that CNS burnout has more to do with doing too many 1RMs too often then doing too much training. You can overtrain your muscles by doing too much with a light weight without burning out you CNS. Or visa versa.

Peace ~ Bear